Club Obi Wan

well,
i talked with david morgan the other day,
and he told me that he did not make any cable cored whips
for any of the indiana jones films!
and that the only film he ever made them for was
the most recent zorro film.
Adam

I believe him. Kangaroo leather is surprisingly strong. I'm sure the bullwhip could withstand a few good swings, provided it was well-anchored.

ClintonHammond wrote:Take this as no offence Ol' Mol... but I'd need to see proof...

Your post above, is hearsay...

)

He says he talked to David Morgan. What kinda of proof do you need to see? just curious

Adam is correct. I've also been told by David on a couple different occasions that he did not make any cable core whips for the Indy films. I'm sure Sergei will concur on this point as well.

This is not to say that the production did not use cable core stunt whips for certain scenes. Just that Morgan was not the man who made them.

Adam- did you call while we were on Redbeard's chat or before that?
That's interesting news for sure... I wonder if they did really use a normal whip after all (at least for the Raiders idol scene).

That's pretty interesting... but I'm sure Edge is right in saying that they probably DID use the cable cored whips, just that they weren't DMs. Clinton, I'm thinking you had a different take on what this all meant?

Neo - LOVE your new avatar - very funny!

In Christ,
Shane

If you watch frame by frame and zooming in the scene where Indy and his guide swing at the begining of ROTLA, you'll see that the whip used is clearly NOT a Morgan. The handle is different, the knob is almost flat, the wrist loop is too long and wide.

So, my guess is that they used another whipmaker's whip for the swinging scenes.

Bernardo

Is it possible that they didn't use a whip at all?
I'd need to look at this frame by frame, but is it possible they used the Morgan for the grab, then replaced it with a "whip-shaped" cable for swinging. I mean, this is the movies afterall. If they had, it would only have to have a passable ressemblance to a Morgan for the shot and would still be strong enough to swing from. -Just a thought.

The information in the original post is interesting but I never assumed Morgan made the 'swing' whip.
David Morgan's expertise is whips, and the ability to swing on a whip has been established. It is established that you do NOT swing on a whip! Swinging on a whip will destroy it's inherent 'whip' properties. Therefore, someone who makes whips would not concern themselves with the technical knowledge to make such a device. Of course, he could offer suggestions but that is another matter.
I have no doubt the whip was made by some sort of stunt/technical company.

neo,
yea thats right, i called him while i was on there. I had
to leave afterwords though. I was calling to ask him how
he made them for the film, because im helping ken out with one
for ToTt.
Adam

Perhaps it would help to remember that Morgan didn't actually make any whips FOR Raiders

The whips used were DM's that already belonged to the stunt coordinator. Morgan was only brought on board to make the whips for ToD and LC.

If they already had the Morgan whips lying around, then they would just as easily rely on their own crew to make cable-whips for the necessary stunts.

The_Edge wrote:Adam is correct. I've also been told by David on a couple different occasions that he did not make any cable core whips for the Indy films. I'm sure Sergei will concur on this point as well.

This is not to say that the production did not use cable core stunt whips for certain scenes. Just that Morgan was not the man who made them.

Exactly... Do not infer that no cable whips were used for the stunts. David is on record saying he didn't do it. However, if you know how stunt professionals work, they leave nothing to chance. If you were the stunt guy being dragged behind a truck, which whip would you choose for the stunt - cable whip or regular?

In addition we discussed this at IndyFan way back in 2000 or 2001:
http://indyfan.dnsalias.com/vault/forum ... 76872.html

& Indygear:
viewtopic.php?t=1713&highlight=cable
-Sergei

I also noticed in the couple of frames that the handle is actually visible, that the handle seems bent. A solid indication that there is no metal spike in the handle. My guess is that Glen Randall had somebody make one, either a personal contact or a propmaster.
My conversations with Dave Morgan lead me to believe he would not compromise his whipmaking skills for any dollar ammount. When I asked him to change the handle length on an order, he flat out refused the order. He then went on to say (I'm not lying here Clinton, scouts honor ) that if they do Indy 4 and ask him to do the whips with the old handle configuration he will flat out refuse to make the whips for the film. He said they have to take them how he makes them or forget it.

That's hardcore.

You can see without a doubt the whip used for the swinging scenes is not what the Dave Morgan looks like at all, but it would be nice to know where it came from.

Maybe it's rope with brown duct tape wrapped around it. Or even a cowboy roping lasso like the ones used to rope steer...those suckers are strong.

agent5 wrote:He then went on to say (I'm not lying here Clinton, scouts honor ) that if they do Indy 4 and ask him to do the whips with the old handle configuration he will flat out refuse to make the whips for the film. He said they have to take them how he makes them or forget it.

That's hardcore.

That is quite the attitude. I don't think that his whips would command the very top dollar that they do today, if it weren't for the fact that they were the ones that appeared in the trilogy. I know he makes great whips, but his prices are higher than some whips from other excellent whip makers. To bad that he doesn't remember one of the big things that made him "famous" and his whips prized and valued by so many.

I just can't walk away from a comment like that about David Morgan. You really have to know the guy.

Short Bio & Background
================
He studied and graduated as an engineer by trade. He is probably the most meticulous person you will ever meet. You couple that attention to detail and producing a high quality product for stunt professionals, whip handlers on the range and the stage. He hates seeing his whips returned for repair. Not necessarily because he has to repair it, but the "downtime" for the professional while the whip is being repaired. So thinking as an engineer he slowly over time made modifications in his design to perfect the weaknesses and flaws uncovered during the tests of time. More specifically he does not like putting the turks head knot on the end of the handle at 8 inches - like in Raiders. At 8 inches, that knot is right over the end of the 8 inch nail spike. That's were there is a lot of force and knots have failed right over the spike. As an engineer, placement of that knot at 8 inches would be an integrity issue with him - BIG TIME. This is because he knows the failure rate. The man is bulging with INTEGRIS.

One final thought.... He can not understand why his whips are wallhangers. He doesn't understand the concept. He is old-school, old work ethic type of guy, that really takes great pride in his craftmanship. And he is especially proud for keeping the art of braiding American bullwhips that could have died without his intervention. Just think about it... we (& Harrison in Raiders) could be cracking Mexican Latigo style whips and be no wiser. And another attribute he doesn't acknowledge upon himself, but he has inspired a handful of young whip makers that will carry on the tradition. Let's say he was the Johnny Appleseed for american style bullwhip making.

-Sergei

Sergei,
i probably never would have started making whips if it wasent for morgan.
Infact i know i never would have. David is a really nice guy from what ive
experienced with him i talked to him for about 10 minutes and then i had
to leave, and ive got to say i felt quite bad about ending the conversation.
Im not sure why so many people feel that changing the film whip knot
placement is a bad thing. He saw a fault in his proudct and he improved
it for the better. Sorry if i opened up a can of worms, i did not want to
just start a argument.
adam

Sergei,

I know that and understand that. But, there are a lot of people that would not know who or what a David Morgan was, if it were not for the Indiana Jones movies. I, myself would have never heard of him if it had not been for Indy.

I know he takes pride in his craftsmanship, but his whips are still expensive. I stand by my statement that his whips wouldn't command that high of a price if it weren't for the fact that they were used in the Indiana Jones movies. There has even been posts on this forum that he has assistants that make whips for him. If so, you may not even be getting a whip made by David Morgan for that high price. I don't know if this is true or not. Just something that has been posted on here and talked about.

The movie makers want to use his whips as a movie prop. As long as they get the shots they want, they don't really care about longevity of the whip. They just want a certain look.

The Indiana Jones movies have helped increase David Morgan's fame, added to the collectability and demand for his whips. It has increased his sales and profit from those sales and caused his whips to sell at a high premium. It is inconsiderate on his part not to help those very same people that he knows have aided him in attaining that lofty status.

OK... I hear you. But again the facts... He didn't go looking to shop out his business of selling his props to the movie industry. Glenn Randall Jr. possessed a cache of Morgan whips ....years before Raiders. Morgan's whips were popular within the professional circles years prior to Raiders. Glenn didn't have Mexican Latigos in his inventory. A stunt guy and 2nd unit director like Glenn depend on quality props for his profession. They depend on it for putting food on the table and going onto the next gig without injury or serious harm.

So it's not like Morgan was picked out randomly as he was walking through life. He was picked for a reason and reputation. Sure Raiders put Morgan on the map. Morgan is free to charge whatever he wants. But.... In a free market, like America, the market dictates price. Prices only decrease when something is subsidized or when efficiency goes up. Morgan's raised his prices because he gets quality hides - his raw material used for finished goods. Another huge factor for the increase is that roo hide has gone up tremendously over the years due to a nasty drought in Australia. That drought is killing tens of thousands of kangaroos and it has affected the quality - supply goes down and prices go up - surprise.

Morgan gets his hides from Packer Leather in Australia, argueably the best tannery in Australia. Packer is so huge they don't deal with small outlets. I can't get a set of hides from Packer directly. It would be like me walking up to GM in Detroit and telling them to sell me a Chevy. In this case, I need to go through a leather distributor with an import license for kangaroo. Packer, after doing business with Morgan for over 30 years, send him high quality hides because they know he is very demanding and he will send back poor hides. For that quality he pays a premium, top dollar. The man pays attention to the little stuff.

I agree with you on one matter. The studios don't care about longevity of a whip. But the stunt guys do and so do the performers. Just picture Harrison cracking a Mexican Latigo - goofy.

Sorry for defending an american icon. I think anymore, you really need to complain to Morgan. He will give you an earful.

-Sergei

Im not sure why so many people feel that changing the film whip knot
placement is a bad thing. He saw a fault in his proudct and he improved
it for the better. Sorry if i opened up a can of worms, i did not want to
just start a argument.

No argument whatsoever. That's what a forum is about. Discussion. I eventually did get the whip I wanted with the correct knot placement to the film, the last one he made actually. Made me happy.
After I was able to compare the two, the newer, shorter handle configuration is alot better and just handles better, so it is all about the whip. He could care less about any kind of accuracy and in fact, seems to dislike discussing it. It's an old book to him. A broken record.
When he first declined my order of course I was ticked off, but at the same time I was like, 'WOW!', because his main concern was for the quality of his work and his work ethics and I admired that. He said he did not want to compromise that in any way and that changing what he's taken years to do would just get him off track.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:The movie makers want to use his whips as a movie prop. As long as they get the shots they want, they don't really care about longevity of the whip. They just want a certain look.

I think about the "mistakes" in the trilogy of our favorite fictional hero. Some may argue that the "mistakes" are in keeping with Lucas & Spielberg's vision of a B-serial series. If those "mistakes" were deliberate, then a shorter-handled whip in Indy IV should not pose a problem to continuity.

Just a thought,

I.J.

I haven't said anything negative about Mr. Morgan's craftsmanship. I agree that it is top of the line. I just think for a person to make a statement that he will not co-operate with someone that has helped his business, before that person even asks him for a favor, is just a tad ungrateful. It doesn't matter to me if he is an American Icon or the neighborhood paperboy, the principle is the same.

I give up. I explained his pricing due to increasing raw material costs - you said he was "expensive". I explained his adherence to delivering a high quality, durable product that will perform without breaking over many years. If someone asks you to modify your product by putting a screw in a location where you know it would fail or affect it's durability and then you sell the item anyway - well in my opinion, that is not professional. He knows it's going to come back if they use it - it's his reputation on the line when it does fail. He doesn't understand "screen accuracy". He only understands making a bullwhip that will endure.

Let's agree to disagree. I understand Morgan's position and I also understand people's obession with screen accuracy. I am not casting judgement on either. And I highly respect both camps. For those that don't like Morgan whips for price and looks, there is a field of choice now.

Sergei, I understand everything that you are saying, and I certainly didn't mean to get your knickers in a twist. You are truely one of the whip experts around these parts. I have learned a lot of things about whips from your posts on this very forum.

I didn't mean to debate the quality of a Morgan whip. I did not belittle his contribution to the art of whipmaking. I indicated that the Indiana Jones movies were one factor that influences Morgan's price structure, not the only factor.

I only meant to express my feeling that a statement he supposedly made was ungrateful and uncalled for. You have even succeeded in giving me insight into why he may have said it. I still don't like what he said, but then he might not like half of the stuff that I say. The real kicker is, I would like to own a Morgan whip someday.

Sergei,

One whip question. If Morgan doesn't want to put the knot at 8 inches anymore because it would be right over the 8 inch nail spike and would cause it to fail, why couldn't he shorten the nail spike a half an inch or so. The handle would be the same length but the knot wouldn't be right over the nail spike. Then if they insisted on having an 8 inch handle, the knot wouldn't fail. Or, am I not understanding the construction of the handle?

To ease back onto the subject of steel cables, (and try to move away from the price/quality of Dave Morgan's line of products,) I don't think Adam's conversation with David is heresay. It just doesn't fit with what we thought, which itself was heresay. In truth, it makes sense that David didn't braid leather over steel cables. He'd have to charge out the yang for that! Regardless of what the belly was, kangaroo was expensive stuff back then too!

Anyway, that's not the sort of thing that prop coordinators do. That's too much money for a prop that's going to be seen for maybe 20 frames in the film. They buy the "hero" prop, and either give it, or take extensive pictures and give them to their prop coordinators, who make dummies out of rubber, foam, and resin.

Now, this is just a guess, but I'll bet you that the swinging whips in the movies were painted rubber with steel cores, which would explain why we don't see any surviving examples of these, (because the rubber prop makers tend to use a mixture that breaks down over a few months, which would leave just a steel safety cable covered with some unidentifiable goop.)

Either way, I CAN assure you that they didn't just use a normal Morgan whip, regardless of quality, or a rope. It was a steel or equivilent cable.

This has nothing to do with Mr. Morgan's product or the stuntman's ability. It has to do with insurance. Whenever there is a big stunt performed on a Hollywood set, regardless if it's the "Name" actor or his stunt double doing it, the Insurance Nazi is there. If he's not happy with the setup, it don't happen. The real power on the set those days is the bean counter...

Hollywood insurance makes and breaks film production. This is why Jackie Chan rarely works in the states, (and why his American movies, like "Shanghai Noon/Knights" and "Around the World in 80 Days," aren't as spectacular as his Hong Kong pictures.) He can't get insurance for HIS pictures over here.

Just my thoughts. Anyone else have any ideas?

Thanks for the heads up on this, Adam! One step closer to clearing up THIS Gearhead Myth!

-Dan

They buy the "hero" prop, and either give it, or take extensive pictures and give them to their prop coordinators, who make dummies out of rubber, foam, and resin.

Now, that makes complete sense to me. The best theory yet. I'd say that the painted rubber with the steel wire core is the best bet. That would also explain why the handle is bent.