Club Obi Wan

Google lead me to the USW Indy jackets before I stumbled headfirst into the gargantuan snakepit of wisdom here at indygear. Since then, I've read and re-read many of your detailed posts that had anything to do with the hubris surrounding kangaroo leather.

My curiousity got the better of me and I ordered the jacket on 11/16 just to see if it could work for me. Unfortunately, they haven't shipped it yet, I've already been showing symptoms of JAS (jacket anticipation syndrome), and I've been compulsively checking email for a UPS tracking number.

Another forum member, Lemon expressed interest in the Kangaroo Indy and was considering getting one once it went back on sale. Did you get one during the current 10% off sale Lemon?

We'll see if I keep it, but as soon as it arrives I plan to post photos for the curious. I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions/requests for common color-test objects (a box of Pocky, mr. sketch scented markers, etc.)

Cheers,
Granite

I'm still on the fence! While I love the properties of Kangaroo leather, for the money I can't decide between the roo, a custom Wested, or an Aero Highwayman. Kangaroo leather is fantastic. I've got a pair of Geier gloves from David Morgan and the leather is tough, thin, and doesn't harden after getting wet. It isn't particularly waterproof, but it dries quickly. You may want to get a coat of Pecard's on your jacket when it arrives.

Congrats on the purchase and I look forward to your pics to help me make a decision too! The 10% off sale didn't entice me. US Wings seems to run this throughout the winter months.

Yes, 10% is not much discount, but some things can't wait forever. Aero does make really nice jackets, despite not being indys (the grail here).

I use a leather condtioner that seems to have many of the features of Pecard's on some leather shoes and boots I own. H.S. Trask makes bison leather footware and sells 'buffalo butter' that supposedly preserves, protects and conditions. From what I can tell, it does all that brilliantly (even some mild waterproofing ability). I think it would work with kangaroo as well, as it claims to affect all full grain leathers.

Is all full-grain leather alike, or do jackets need Pecard's? Is it the best or a matter of opinion/what's on hand?

I've been intrigued by the Kangaroo Indy myself. I have a Barmah kangaroo hat and it is thin, lightweight and quite rugged. I have accidentally rubbed up against tree branches while walking and the hat suffered no damage. There is a reddish hue to the hat even though it is dark brown. That may not be desirable in an Indy jacket. I just bought a FS dark brown goat Expo, so a Roo Indy wouldn't be in the immediate future. Still I look forward to seeing your pictures and hearing your impressions.

Axel

As an Indy jacket (screen accurate, etc), the alleged redness may not be desirable, but outide this community, people seem to have much higher tolerance for deviance. As a simple jacket, it may truly rule.

If kangaroo leather had been available in the 1930s, Indiana Jones might have picked some up during his travels so Wested wouldn't have to make new ones for him all the time.

Another leather, perhaps nearly as rare as kangaroo, is bison. I have not seen any Indy jackets (or any other style) made from a leather I know to be supple, yet very durable, on top of having a desireable large grain. Native Americans knew what they were doing. I'm surprised no one has tried to produce some examples from bison (though I've heard quality issues are at the root).

Hmm, now bison leather would be fantastic too! The grain is just amazing. The alleged redness of the kangaroo wouldn't bother me either. Almost no one in my neck of the woods would recognize it as an Indy jacket (except the rare COW forum member of course!)

I'm really looking forward to seeing your pics! I could have an rooskin Indy in less than a week rather than having to wait for a month or more for a Wested.

Aero Leather makes some of their jackets from Buffalo, which is the
same as bison, just a different name.

I have one of their Russet buffalo Californian jackets that I posted picture
of here. It is a great jacket, with huge grain, but it is quite stiff until it
breaks in.

According to Aero, you can get several of their jackets in this hide, including
their A-2's, Highwayman, Califorinian, ext.

Flathead

Flathead, I had heard that when leather was referred to as buffalo that it was actually water buffalo and that leather was not normally made from bison. How can you be certain that a leather is bison and not water buffalo?

Axel

Flathead, that's an amazingly stiff buffalo hide jacket! I don't think my buffalo work boots are even that thick. When I get a new pair of bison leather shoes, I normally work them with my hands for a few hours before even walking in them, since your feet have to do the breaking-in if your hands don't. I would suggest a pinata party for your jacket (have your friends beat it to supple-ness) if it still feels like armour.

That said, the H.S. Trask boots I own are made from dramatically thicker leather than their dress shoes, so they must shave down the leather to different thicknesses, which jacket-makers must also choose. Which makes me wonder if the Californian had a bi-swing back like the Indy jacket, would it feel as stiff? I'd be interested if someone has done a study comparing buffalo and kangaroo leather.

There seem to be many different types of bison, buffalo - all of whom are members of the bovidae family. Usually, manufacturers will make clear (or you can ask) what type of cow-relative they use. H.S. Trask makes shoes exclusively from American Bison, for example.

On yet another side note, Aero apparently made a few knock-off Indy jackets a while back, though not from buffalo. But apparently, they thought the styling was "dodgy" and didn't want to compete for the market against Wested.

Flathead, I had heard that when leather was referred to as buffalo that it was actually water buffalo and that leather was not normally made from bison. How can you be certain that a leather is bison and not water buffalo?

You know, thats a good question! I was told when I purchased my jacket
from Aero last year, that it was actual buffalo that was raised on a farm
for their hides, so when I heard that, I thought bison like here in the U.S..
They did not say it was water buffalo. They said the animals are raised like
cows and sheep on farms. But I will ask again to make sure.

Flathead, that's an amazingly stiff buffalo hide jacket! I don't think my buffalo work boots are even that thick. When I get a new pair of bison leather shoes, I normally work them with my hands for a few hours before even walking in them,

The buffalo hide on my Californian is VERY thick. It will take alot to make
this jacket break in. I can say that the cuffs are now broken in, and they
are very pliable now. As are the arms of the jacket. The body, which
really doesn't get much flexing, needs more work.

I have taken to wadding the jacket up in a ball, and putting it in the
corner of my bedroom to help soften it up. It has helped quite a bit,
but its still pretty stiff.

So, I can see how doing what you have done to the boots would work
very well.

Flathead

You could actually make a few bucks off the "tenderizing" if you advertise it as 'stress management': just lock your customers in a room with baseball bat and the jacket, tell them to beat it until they feel as docile as hindu cows. It would work wonders for both, that is, if your stitching survives. On a more serious note, I do think kneading the leather helps immensely.

I looked up Aero and discovered that their buffalo hide jackets are priced at more than double the total cost of a Wested. Do you mind if I ask if you got yours on sale (I did notice a black buffalo highwayman 34" for sale for ~280, which makes it comparable to average Indy jacket prices)?

This seems to 'clarify' the buffalo/bison controversy:

http://www.gwinnettcitizen.com/Editoria ... ining.html

I looked up Aero and discovered that their buffalo hide jackets are priced at more than double the total cost of a Wested. Do you mind if I ask if you got yours on sale

No, I did not get mine on sale. I paid 355 pounds, which at the time,
came out to about $540 U.S.

I ordered mine thru Mark Moye, who is Aero's American rep. He not
only absorbs the custom charges, but he also does not charge the usual
shipping charges associated with the package once it hits the U.S.. So you
can save about 70 or 80 dollars on your jacket purchase thru him. You
can find him by going on e-bay, and searching for "Aero Leather Jacket".
From there, you can get his normal e-mail.

Yes, the Aero jackets are about twice the price of a Wested. But for a
reason. I like my Wested Authentic Lamb Indy jacket, but it is not made
the same as an Aero jacket.

What do I mean by that? I mean that all Aero jackets are built to a
much higher military standard than the Wested's are. The Aero jackets
have a lifetime guarentee on their stitching also. If any of the stitching
every lets loose, or breaks, you can send it back, and they will fix it
for free.

Also, Aero offers authentic reproductions of WWII and 1930's 40's
and 50's jackets. These jackets are made to the EXACT same standards
as the old ones. Wested makes some WWII jackets, like an A-2, and a
B-3, but these are not authentic repros. like Aero, Eastman, or Lost
Worlds or Real McCoys makes. You can ask Fedora about his recent
A-2 purchase. He will tell you that these makers are far ahead in their
contruction of actual reproductions of these jackets.

Also, another feature you can get on Aero jackets is an actual, reclaimed
WWII Talon zippers from actual WWII jackets put on your jacket if you
want it. This also will raise the price as these things are not cheap, but
they are also made about 3 times as strong as todays zippers.

You have to remember, Wested is a Costumier, who makes jackets basically
for movies. They are not made to last a lifetime of hard use and abuse.
Aero, Eastman, Lost Worlds and Real McCoys jackets are made to last
a lifetime of hard use and abuse, just like the originals. I'm not talking
about the type of leather being able to hold up to abuse, like goatskin
can, but the basic overall contruction of the jackets.

Thats why you pay the premium for them. Just ask anyone who has
ever owned one, like Fedora, Indy Dawg, _, Michaelson ext.

Flathead

Flathead, if I extend your reasoning of Wested vs. Aero and mil spec construction, would you expect a G&B Expo to last a lifetime vs. a Wested which would not? I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I suppose that's why the Expo cost more than the Wested.

Axel

Thanks for the great post Flathead.

I take it that authentic reproductions aren't simply 'mil-spec' like US Wings jackets, they mimic the materials and styling of the originals, for which you pay a premium? I wonder if reproductions of old jackets are tougher than current 'mil-spec.'

I think Axel (please correct me if I'm wrong) is trying to suss out the build-quality ambiguity between the 'mil-spec' jackets made by firms like US Wings and Flightsuits and screen accurate originals from Wested. Is it true then that the Wested is not built to whatever obscene level of durability required of 'mil-spec', but rather to another standard set by Wested or the Indy jackets manufactured for the films?

Would a spectrum of increasing durability look something like:
Wested -> USW/FS -> Aero/Real MCCoy

take it that authentic reproductions aren't simply 'mil-spec' like US Wings jackets, they mimic the materials and styling of the originals, for which you pay a premium?

Exactly. There are very few companies today that make actual jackets
to the exact same specs as the orginals. What U.S. Wings sells are
jackets that fall far short of what a real WWII repro is. They sell modern
jackets made to have the same feel as the originals. Most people do not
know, nor care about the difference. But once you have a real repro
in your hands, you will see and feel the difference right away.

Its kind of like our Indy jackets. How many people thought that any old
brown, distressed jacket was an Indy jacket until they saw the real thing?

For example, my Aero B-3 uses olive drab, waxed cotton thread, that is the same
thickness and color as the originals. It also uses the same stitch spacing
as the originals. This means it has the same number of stitches per inch
as the originals. Would anyone notice this? Probably not. But once you
see how hard it wears, and how you don't get the stitching coming loose
around the pocket, sleeves or anywhere else like some vendors jackets
do, then you will know the difference means something.

Also, these higher end vendors use more accurate weight hides, in
horse, goat, cow and shearling, that matches the originals. They are
made in the same colors, and you can even get them in the different
shades that the originals came in. For example, A-2 jackets came in
russet, seal brown, and other dark brown colors with different color
satin, and then cotton drill linings as well as several different color cuff and
waist ribbings.

My B-3 is in the color Redskin. This color is the same as the original
color that was supposed to be brown. It was hand applied, and as such,
came out a more russet, mottled look to it instead of the seal brown color
of the later issue versions. Also, a real B-3 has only one right hand patch
pocket, and it has elbow reinforcements made from horsehide, as well as
horsehide cover pieces over where the seams of each piece of shearling
come together. It should have adjustment straps made from cowhide
on both the sides and collar of the jacket. The collar straps have the top
strap going all the way around the back of the collar.

The repros that most other companies sell have two hand warmer
pockets, no reinforcement on the elbows, and the strap on the collar
does not go all the way around the back. These B-3's are far inferior
to what Aero, Eastman, Lost Worlds and Real McCoys offer.

Flathead, if I extend your reasoning of Wested vs. Aero and mil spec construction, would you expect a G&B Expo to last a lifetime vs. a Wested which would not? I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I suppose that's why the Expo cost more than the Wested.

Last longer? Thats really subjective. If you wore a Wested Lambskin
jacket to the office everyday, and nothing else, it would last you a lifetime.
If you wore it to work outdoors in, it would fall apart in no time if you
subjected it to alot of abuse.

If you wore a Wested goatskin jacket to work outdoors in, it may last awhile, but
if you wore it out in the rain all the time, the stitching would eventually
give out, and the jacket would fall apart. The threads used are not up
to what is considered Mil Spec.

Just look on e-bay for old WWII jackets. They are over 60 years old,
went thru a war, and other than needing a few minor repairs, some
are still in great, wearable shape. That is where the difference lies. You
can buy a jacket to just wear, or you can buy a jacket to really use.
You hardly ever see these old jackets with the threads coming apart, or
the leather falling apart unless its been really, really abused. And then
its still in fairly good shape. Thats because they used better quality items
to make the jackets from.

Aero's jackets are made to be worn, used for work, and take abuse just
like the originals. If the stitching ever gives out, you can send it back,
and they will fix it free of charge for the life of the jacket. Eastman does
this, as does Lost Worlds.

I do believe Flightsuits does the same, but their repro jackets are not made
to the same exact specs as the others. Their A-2 is nice, but its not an
exact repro. Its more of a modern interpretation as is their B-3. They
do not hold up to the same standards as the others. But, they do make
their jackets to a higher standard than most places, and their jackets
have to hold up to more abuse than most places. They make great,
tough jackets, just not accurate repros.

Don't get me wrong, Wested makes great jackets for the price. But if
you want a real repro of an A-2, B-3, B-6, G-1, ANJ-4 or any other
jacket made back during WWII or later, you can not get one from Wested
or Flightsuits or U.S. Wings.

If you ever get the chance to see one of these real repros up close, and
try it on for yourself, you will notice the difference right away. Like
I said, just ask _, or Michaelson, or Fedora, or Indy Dawg. They
have had all types of jackets pass thru their hands, and they can attest
to what a real repro should be.

There is a saying that goes, "You get what you pay for". And that goes
for jackets as well.

Flathead

Flathead, very interesting post, but it is hard to imagine that film costumers (such as Wested) would make less durable jackets than "mil-spec". While Aero, FS, US Wings, Eastmans, etc may make their jackets to mil-spec or better, they are all large companies who cater primarily to folks who care about that standard. Wested seems like a pretty small shop who primarily focus on the movie industry. They are making jackets like the Indy and the Rocketeer for the commercial market likely only due to great demand. In all likelihood their jackets would also exceed mil-spec, someone just has to be willing to do the certification (which a film costumer wouldn't go to the trouble for)

I'm sure Wested would also stand behind the product with stitching repairs and sy uch.

I myself am still on the fence as to what to get, but lately I've been leaning Wested due to construction differences like the inner leather facings (to prevent zipper / liner snag), extra pocket, etc. Still I'd love to see pics of Granite Sentinel's latest Kangaroo Indy from US Wings as that is one #### for tough leather! If the pics look good, I just might go that way myself...

Aero's stuff looks stop notch to me, but I don't believe that their pricing reflects a product that's twice as good as a FS, USW, or Wested. For US $700 or higher, I don't know that I would be getting my $ worth. I've never owned one, so I can't speak too far on Aero's product, but I don't know how close their product can be to originals produced for the war beause their were many contracters making A2's and the like for the armed services, and I'm sure the quality varied.

Aero's heavy horsehide jackets look to be their line that would have the most appeal-the hides and super warm linings would do well for people who live in extreme cold. Those might be worth the money if you lived well above temperate regions.

The infamous issue of reproductions, relative toughness, build quality and military specifications has been discussed in greater depth here: http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic ... t=mil+spec

Still I'd love to see pics of Granite Sentinel's latest Kangaroo Indy from US Wings as that is one #### for tough leather! If the pics look good, I just might go that way myself...

It is one tough leather! Kangaroo is the only leather that if you planed
away 60 percent of its thickness, it would still retain 90 percent of its original
tear strength! For its weight, which is more along the lines of goatskin,
you can't get a better leather. It would make one fine jacket.

Be prepared though, the kangaroo that Wings sells is a russet color, with
a dark, almost black undertone. This means that as the jacket gets
distressed, the worn areas will look black, not the nice tan color we all
like to see.

Also, once you remove the tag on the Wings jacket, its yours to keep, no
matter what happens. You can not return it, or get a refund like Wested
or the other places. Thats the one thing that people complain about alot
with Wings.

Flathead, very interesting post, but it is hard to imagine that film costumers (such as Wested) would make less durable jackets than "mil-spec".

The jackets Wested makes for the movies are not made to last a
lifetime in general. They are made for a costume, and as such, they
do not have to meet anywhere near the standards of Mil Spec items.
Its just the nature of the item. I am not saying they are not nice,
everyday wearing jackets. They are just not made to perform up to
the same tough standards as the military requires. Certain things would
need to change, like the type of thread used, stitches per inch on the
basic garment, type of cover stitiching around high stress points, ext.

Aero's stuff looks stop notch to me, but I don't believe that their pricing reflects a product that's twice as good as a FS, USW, or Wested. For US $700 or higher, I don't know that I would be getting my $ worth.

I can use the same analogy and say that I can't see why a BMW M3 is
worth four times the price of a Chevy Cavalier. They are both cars, with
4 wheels and an engine. So whats the difference? Why would anyone
want to spend the extra money? It all comes down to what you want.

As soon as you get to see them together, side by side, you will see the
difference right away.

Take your Wested, and go to the Mall, and go to one of the cheasy leather
stores. Compare your Wested to the mall jackets. You will see that the
Wested is made to a much higher standard than those mall jackets.

You will see that your Wested uses better materials, better quality
cutting and stitching, better quality zippers ext.

But, your Wested cost over 3 times what those $100.00 mall jackets
cost. Does that mean that the Wested is not worth the money? Of
course not. You are getting what you are paying for. A better made
jacket, that has a price tag to go along with that better quality, hand
made item.

All of our vendors make great products that are made much better
than anything you can get from a mall or leather store. Its just that
some are made to meet different standards than others.

I've never owned one, so I can't speak too far on Aero's product, but I don't know how close their product can be to originals produced for the war beause their were many contracters making A2's and the like for the armed services,

Aero, Eastman and Real McCoys all make reproductions of A-2 jackets
to alot of different original jacket makers.

Aero for example, makes about 4 different varieties of A-2 jackets
that were made 70 years ago. They make repros from original makers
such as Bronco or the original Aero Beacon NY, which has nothing
to do with the current Aero in Scotland. You can get mismatched leather
versions just like you might have got back in WWII. You can get them in
all the varities of hides, colors, linings and such, just like the originals.
You can get them with or without collar stands, with or without the AAF
decal on the sleeve too, if you want to get a repro from a certain time
frame.

Eastman makes a copy of the Roughwear company styles, the Rainwear
style ext. Real McCoys makes a copy of the Monarch style, as well as
repros of several other original makers.

And, just like us here on the Indy forum, these jackets are put under
a microscope to make sure each and every seam, stitch, pocket, collar,
cuff, weave of wool and cotton items, sleeve tapper, even the labels
on the insides of the jackets, are all made exactly
the same as the originals. And as such, you pay a higher price for it.

If you want to see just how close these jackets are to the originals, go
to this site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VintageLeatherJacketsII/

There you will see that these people are just as hard on their vendors
to produce an accurate WWII jacket as we are in making Wested create
the perfect Indy jacket.

And I do not doubt for one minute that Wested could not make a great
mil spec jacket! With the quality, and craftsmanship of the jackets that
I have seen, they would make great military jackets.

But, if they did make them to meet these higher military standards, they
would have to raise the prices of these jackets to reflect the more work
required to do it, the higher cost of the materials and what not.

Flathead

What if we compare a Wested and a 'mil-spec' US Wings: both are priced similarly at around $300. Can we think definitively about which is better manufactured (styling/fit issues aside) in the following way:

If Peter Botwright already uses cotton-wrapped nylon thread in his Indy jackets (as I believe he’s stated) and leather grade is comparable across jackets (both manufacturers use high quality skins), does it come down to the stitching technique?

To keep things short and sweet...if we were having this discussion a few years ago, we could definitely point out item for item the differences between this manufacturer and that one....but today, I can't say that. Peter's jackets match a mil-spec jacket point for point, and stitch for stitch. They didn't used to think that way, but that's been pointed out above. They have been a costumer for years and years. The thought of a jacket lasting a lifetime didn't even enter into a conversation with them....they made prime costume materials for limited use." You need another one? No problem...we'll make you one". Here in the U.S., we're of the mind set that our items must survive a nuclear blast, and still be functional enough to hand down to our grandchildren. Enter the 'mil-spec' practice of our industries who contract to our military requirements. The stuff is 'over engineered'...just like we like our stuff to be and perform. I have to say that in the past 3-4 years, Wested smelled the coffee (so to speak), and now understand what we're thinking. We don't want a throw away jacket. We want something that will last, and their product matches (and in many cases surpasses) mil-spec ideals in all respects.

So, that said, I'm sorry. I've not made YOUR decision any easier. It's now up to YOU to decide what YOU'RE wanting to own, as each and every manufacturer has it's pros and cons, but they're all built to last and perform now.

Like I said....I couldn't say that 3-4 years ago....

Regards. Michaelson

Although I cannot say I've personally seen a new Wested in over 3 years-so though I know from hearing about it, they have definately upped the ante and are pissing with the big boys (so to speak ), I haven't yet had the pleasure of owning one. Since I heard that they will not entertain my specific requirements with regards to strap placement, pleat depth, and collar sizing, I've kindof written them off for ever owning a "new" one. But we ALL know my specific requirements are pretty "intricate", shall we say? .....

Anywho....where was I going with this.....oh, yeah. All that being said, the Aero A-2 I own, for certain, could withstand a bomb blast and come back for more. No doubt. They make the baddest jackets on the planet. Are they worth the money-only if that's what you MUST have. If you can settle for less than that, then by all means do it. But once you've owned one, you will never look at any other leather jacket the same. It definately puts you in a much more discriminating mindset.

Highest Regards, too, for FLATHEAD-you have really put those points better than I could! Hat's off to you, sir!

Later y'all!
Indydawg

Michaelson wrote:I have to say that in the past 3-4 years, Wested smelled the coffee (so to speak), and now understand what we're thinking. We don't want a throw away jacket. We want something that will last, and their product matches (and in many cases surpasses) mil-spec ideals in all respects.

So, that said, I'm sorry. I've not made YOUR decision any easier. It's now up to YOU to decide what YOU'RE wanting to own, as each and every manufacturer has it's pros and cons, but they're all built to last and perform now.Regards. Michaelson

I'm glad that you said this Michealson. As a new Wested customer (yet to recieve my horsehide), I was definately looking for something very well made, something better than what I can find at Wilson's, something that would last me many years. From all the input here on the indy jackets, I feel like I have made a good choice. I discovered the Aero, USWings, Real McCoy and Flightsuits sites a bit after I found Indygear, and did alot of studying with what each has to offer before opting for the Wested. Value for the price won me over. In comparing wested's product to the others, the only direct comparison that can really be made is to the other manufacturers who make Indy jackets. They all seem to make high quality products. Like I said before, Aero's stuff seems top notch. The A2 repros etc seem to to be priced on the fact that they are duplicating the original issue clothing down to the "T". Tags, lining, materials, color, zipper, and feature placement (some of this recycled from other garments according to their site) are whats driving the price up. You are paying for the details and the fact that its "new vintage". Is the leather grades above what others use? Is the stitching that much better than their competitors? I would bet they aren't that far apart. All I want is a well made jacket that will last without emptying my savings account.

So how much was that 'Roo jacket?

Thanks Michaelson for crystalizing the discussion, and managing to squeeze in a sentiment I can imagine cold war marketing jargon capitalizing on: "...a jacket for your children's children...if they survive the nuclear winter."

All I want is a well made jacket that will last without emptying my savings account.

Bjones, tell me about it. I think I'll be eating ramen, scrounging, and bumming meals off friends and maybe even enemies for months, but even if I have to live outside, I'll still have a hide I can crawl to work in everyday. I paid a premium for owning the skin of an artificially rare animal leather, but hey, I have a one-track mind. Once I get the idea that I have to feel what a kangaroo skin jacket is like, curiousity rules the day.

Still hurts to sit down on such a thin wallet though...

SUPRISE UPDATE: I just found a UPS delivery attempt notice that had fallen off the door (delivery required a signature). There will be another attempt made this afternoon (Tuesday) between 1200 and 1800 Eastern (GMT-5).

The strangest thing is that I never got a tracking number from either UPS or US Wings, despite multiple phone and email messages. I guess their customer service is swamped, inadequate, both, or they just figure that as long as the package gets there, the customer is gonna be a happy camper. Forgive and forget.

I'll post some pics here, but I'm gonna have an external gallery as well.

Just a few more hours folks...

SUPRISE UPDATE: I just found a UPS delivery attempt notice that had fallen off the door (delivery required a signature). There will be another attempt made this afternoon (Tuesday) between 1200 and 1800 Eastern (GMT-5).

If the UPS place is near you, and you miss the guy when he comes to
your door, you can go over the UPS place and pick up the jacket yourself
if you miss it again.

Just bring the paper that the guy left on your door stating the next
delivery attempt, and you will get your jacket.

I have to do this from time to time because since I work all day like most
people, and I am not home to sign for my packages, I just go down to
the UPS place and get my packages myself.

Flathead

Granite Sentinel wrote:I'll post some pics here, but I'm gonna have an external gallery as well.

Just a few more hours folks...

Congratulations! Knowing that it is there, but not yet in your hands drives me crazy. I just won an FS Expedition off eBay, but I'm hoping your pics will convince me to acquire a roo as well.

Yes we are looking forward to a full report out on the "Roo

I was considering this jacket myself, but the the sizing was a question. They offer it in "standard" sizes only, and I wasn't sure how this would fit me. I would go for the 2XL, but their sizing information says that for extra room to go up a size, which isn't available in the roo. I have 2 other leather jackets in 2XL, 1 fits loose, the other is very fitted and for $425 I would want the fit to be right. Oh well, I should be getting my wested horsehide withing the next week or so, report to follow.

I was considering this jacket myself, but the the sizing was a question. They offer it in "standard" sizes only, and I wasn't sure how this would fit me. I would go for the 2XL, but their sizing information says that for extra room to go up a size, which isn't available in the roo.

Just for your information, the actual chest measurement on a Wings
XL is about 54 inches. This would translate to 27 inches, across the
chest at the armpits, with the jacket zipped up, and laying down flat.

The Wings jackets run rather large, so you may be able to get away with
just an XL and not a 2XL.

If you take a jacket that normally fits you good, zip it up, lay it out flat,
and measure it across the chest under the armpits, and compare this to
the Wings XL, you may have a good fit.

Wings jacket chest measurements run as follows:

Size Medium - 46 inches total which equals 23 inches across the chest.

Size Large - 50 inches total which equals 25 inches across the chest.

Size X-Large - 54 inches total which equals 27 inches across the chest.

Because Wings uses the S-M-L-XL type sizing, they have to accomodate
more normal sizing within each size of their jacket.

So, each size range is at the upper limit of what a normal jacket company,
like Wested would offer.

You might be able to get the XL, and still have it fit you.

Flathead

Thanks...good to know. I'll keep this info handy. I may be in the market next year for the roo jacket. Can't afford it this year!

After what seems like an eternity of waiting, it’s finally here, the US Wings Kangaroo Indy. Does it live up to the hype and my expectations? In some ways it does, and in one very important respect it doesn’t. I haven’t yet decided if it’ll be a keeper, I’m going to notes with my significant other before reaching a final verdict. That said, I’m going to try and give an unbiased point-by-point dissection of the jacket outside and in.

[Note: the jacket arrived after sundown, and as I don’t have full-spectrum bulbs in my house, color accurate photos will have to wait until morning.]

Kangaroo leather: it’s thinner, smoother, and suppler than I imagined, more like rough glove leather than the thick leather most jackets are made from. I had secretly hoped (and actually requested) to get something with as much ‘splotchy’ variation in coloring as seen on the USW website or on the Indygear main site. But this jacket is a fairly even medium brown, and does seem to have a reddish tint. As has been said elsewhere, the leather itself is a dark color, even black. The brown tanned surface does seem much like a coat of ‘paint’ in this light, and leaves me wondering why the leather isn’t dyed or tanned with a darker color closer to the skin’s natural tones. This seems like a poor manufacturing/marketing decision, as darker brown would make it more desirable as an Indy jacket.

Construction: In terms of stitching, the jacket seems top notch and every bit as durable as a ‘mil-spec’ designation leads us to expect. A thoroughly bomber jacket. It has a 3.25" collar. The heavy-duty brass YKK #10 zipper is also definitely up to the challenge. There are also extra-wide 2.25" to 3" tapered facings on each side of the zipper. Double brass D-ring hardware and x-box stitching on the action back.

Fit: I’m a small guy and I usually go for the smallest size on the rack. I ordered the XS (34”), and it’s quite roomy on me. Sleeves are a little long and would need alteration. It could definitely use a dryer shrinking or re-tailoring to make the fit more perfect. It’s in these details that you begin to appreciate a good tailored jacket, like a Wested or the über-rare Brioni you sometimes find at Goodwill. Those spoil you for life.

Lining: This is where my real beef begins and ends. US Wings contract manufacturers seem to have stopped making their jackets cotton lining that _ got, and started with an unspeakably awful, cheap feeling 50/50 nylon/acetate combination in satiny orange with subtle brown striping. It's beautiful, as you'll see in the pictures. But underneath the orange nylon is a puffy insulating layer of acetate (I estimate it at 1/8” thick), and the whole lining seems ‘detached’ from the leather body. I can see the reason they put in some insulation since the leather is so thin, it’d be like wearing nothing in cold or windy weather. However, and here comes a strong opinion, in a jacket that is supposed to be thin and strong, anything but a thin, taut lining feels totally wrong. They could even put in a quilted lining in cotton or satin if they wanted, but only one that hugs the leather. More just defeats the purpose here and it ends up feeling like wearing the lining rather than the jacket.

Possible solution: Replacing the lining of a jacket seems a relatively easy operation, but would represent an significant additional investment that alongside sleeve alteration would significantly raise the cost of this already very expensive jacket. Any ideas on how much something like this would cost? I estimate all these services would probably go above $100 easily.

Conclusion: Is all that money and effort worth it just for the dubious novelty of owning kangaroo leather? Is it ‘worth it’ to fix what I consider an imperfect item? Jury’s still out on this, but the fact that I have not taken off the tags yet should speak volumes about my misgivings. I do welcome your comments and questions if I've missed something.

In any case, I promise to post pictures very soon.

[quote="Granite Sentinel"] in one very important respect it doesn’t. /quote]

Tough call....how important is the lining to you? If its something you might get used to or forget after awhile, then fine. If I was happy with everything except the lining, I would put up with the lining, save up for a bit, find a good tailor (showing the jacket to each one as I shopped around) and have the lining replaced. If kangaroo leather is as good as what I hear, it might be worth the extra $ to get it right. Its a shame that they charge so much and go cheap on the lining. The USW site doesn't specify a lining oddly, which to me is misleading by omission. What if you called them back and asked them about the lining? It might be worth a shot. Otherwise, I might price out services to have the lining replaced-you could even hand select the material you want put in...could be a nice personal touch.

Get an estimate and then decide if the price is right for you unless you think you can live with it out of the box.

The jacket cost what, 400 dollars? And then you had to pay shipping
on top of that. Now you would need the sleeves altered, which will cost
you about 30 bucks, then you would need the lining replaced, and that
would cost at least a 100 bucks. And you think you should put it in the
dryer to get it to fit better?

So, lets see, if you had to pay the normal 20 dollars shipping, you would
now be up to over $550.00 for the jacket!! And, you don't seem to like
the fact that the undertones of the leather are black. And, its not even
a real Indy jacket! Your now approaching almost twice the price of a
regular, custom made authentic Wested Indy jacket.

And I got questions about whether my Aero, custom made Californian
jacket, with a custom picked lining, custom tailored sleeve length, custom
tailored body length and custom tailored chest size, and all for less than what
you are about to pay for your Wings jacket, was worth the extra expense?
Now you know why I did what I did, and I recommend Aero all the way.

You can get a much better made, more custom jacket for that price. The
buffalo hide, and the oil pull horse hide that Aero offers right now has
the exact "splotchy" look to it that you want. They are both excellent
leathers with the look of an "vintage" jacket that it seems you are looking
for, in a leather type that is tough, and not too common like the Roo.

And, the biggetst thing of all is this. With all the custom features you
would want to get on an Aero jacket, they will take it back, NO QUESTIONS
ASKED!! No matter what!! FOR ANY REASON! And you would get your
money back.

Once you touch that U.S. Wings jacket, its yours forever. And if you
had any problems what-so-ever after any alterations you make, your
screwed.

I would send it back, and get a custom made Aero or Wested jacket.

Now you guys see why I think its worth any extra expense for a better
made jacket from Aero, Eastmans, Real McCoys, or Wested. By the time
you try to "fix" a jacket that you are not too happy with, your up to the
price of a custom made, better jacket, from a better company. And you
can get your money back from these better companies of your not totally
happy with your purchase.

I say send it back and be done with it. You'll be happier if you do in the
long run with a custom made jacket, than having to put this one in the
dryer to try to fix the fit, get the sleeves shortened, and getting the lining
replaced.

Flathead

FLATHEAD wrote: And I got questions about whether my Aero, custom made Californian
jacket, with a custom picked lining, custom tailored sleeve length, custom
tailored body length and custom tailored chest size, and all for less than what
you are about to pay for your Wings jacket, was worth the extra expense?
Now you know why I did what I did, and I recommend Aero all the way.

Well, at current exchange rates an Aero Californian would run $682 before shipping and taxes, probably closer to $800 when you factor those in. A Wested, however, is still an outrageous bargain by almost any measure.

It is too bad that US Wings didn't put more effort into the Kangaroo. It is remarkably tough stuff and very lightweight. I'd bet 1/2 the cost of that jacket is the leather alone. I don't understand why they chose to put in a thickened lining. If one wanted a winter coat, there are much better insulating leathers out there.

I'm disappointed by Granite Sentinel's quick review, but pictures may change that.

Maybe an intrepid soul could order 7-8 large Rooskins from Packer Leather in their heaviest weight and get Peter to make a jacket? It might end up being cheaper than the Wings offering, depending on exchange rates.

Well, at current exchange rates an Aero Californian would run $682 before shipping and taxes, probably closer to $800 when you factor those in.

Not quite. With an exchange rate of 1.90, the Californian would run you
about $675.00 right now. Plus, Aero offers free shipping the United States
on all of their jackets priced over 250 pounds. So you save on that too.

If you get it thru Mark Moye, he picks up all the customs fees and other
U.S. charges for you, so you save alot of money that way.

Its still a better deal getting a custom fit, custom hide, custom lining,
custom length, custom width, custom sleeves length, costom color jacket that you can send
back for any reason what-so-ever for a refund, than trying to take
a jacket that does not fit correctly out of the box, and trying to shrink
it in the dryer, tearing out the liner and replacing it, and trying to find
a place to do that and alter the sleeves.

Plus your time involved in doing all of that, plus the fact that after
all of that hassle, if your not happy with the
jacket, your stuck with it forever, and you either accept a $550.00
dollar loss, or you try to get back some money by selling it on e-bay.
And then your still out money because you would never sell it for
what you paid for it.

I happen to think my time is worth something. And if I can get a custom
made, just for me jacket, for about a hundred or so dollars more, that
I don't have to fuss with it and waste my time trying to fix it after it
arrives, then I think its worth it. But thats just me...

Flathead

Here is Mark Moyes website of the pictures of jackets he has sold for
Aero here in the United States:

http://www.picturetrail.com/aeroleatherusa

Go thru and check out the pictures of Buffalo, Oil Pull, and vintage leathers.
You can see how nice some of these are, and they all will have that
vintage look you are looking for.

You can get a bi-swing back on just about any jacket Aero sells except
for their A-2 and B-3. They are very accomodating in this manner. There
is a few jackets posted on the above website that have the bi-swing backs,
side straps, and what not.

Flathead

Finally got the pictures taken. Unfortunately it rained today, so lighting inside my place wasn't that great. But I know you guys want to see something, so I did my best. I tried to think of everything, but if you see something missing or if you want larger pics, let me know and I'll try and make it happen.

http://home.comcast.net/~kjohmei/

For the record:
1. I am returning the jacket.
2. It was a size/fit issue foremost.
3. I actually found the orange nylon lining pretty good, considering.
4. The padding underneath the nylon lining was the only truly objectionable item.
5. If the fit had been great, I would have had a tailor rip out the padding and sew it back up.
6. The leather is undoubtably excellent quality, fine-grained, and beautiful

I happen to think my time is worth something. And if I can get a custom made, just for me jacket, for about a hundred or so dollars more, that I don't have to fuss with it and waste my time trying to fix it after it
arrives, then I think its worth it. But thats just me...

Thanks for all your advice Flathead. I sort of knew the roo wouldn't be perfect from the begining, but curiousity got the best of me. I have to get most of the jackets I wear tailored, so it was a bit of wishful thinking on my part.

Those Aero jackets are real nice, especially the buffalo, but we both know from personal experience how much work it is to break in that tough hide. Doesn't really deter me though, and I continue to admire your russet buffalo 'Californian,' though I also like the 'cossack' style.

Lemon, the thought of having a roo or buffalo leather custom made by Wested crossed my mind, and I'm waiting for an answer. My gut tells me it would be too much hassle for them to do, but Aero seems to have a broader range of offerings, so they might be up to the challenge (though they don't have much experience making Indy jackets). I'm pretty sure they could be convinced to make one of their other offerings in special leather though.

If it turns out that custom hides are a no-go with Wested, I'd probably go with either the Aero jackets I mentioned, or Wested Indy durable goat/distressed cow. It's a long road to satisfaction, and I'm begining to feel a bit like Indydawg, who I gather has had more than a few jackets before 'settling' on an Expo.

Great pictures! The leather looks very nice and smooth, almost like horsehide.

Too bad about the padding, but the construction seems good, like Wested they even put in leather facings to prevent liner zipper snag (my Flightsuits doesn't have that feature, although it is on some of their other jackets).

I guess my new jacket will be a Wested after all.

Granite Sentinel wrote: Those Aero jackets are real nice, especially the buffalo, but we both know from personal experience how much work it is to break in that tough hide. Doesn't really deter me though, and I continue to admire your russet buffalo 'Californian,' though I also like the 'cossack' style.

That Aero Californian does look great in buffalo! If I ever get tired of an Indy jacket fascination, I just might have to order one of those.
Ironically, I have an Expo, but still crave a Wested... Different strokes for different folks I guess!

Good luck in your search for a perfect jacket Granite Sentinel!

And Flathead, thanks for the link to all of those Aero pictures, those A-2's look particularly magnificent.

Granite, here's someting you might want to check into. Your jacket is an older version of the USW Indy jacket design. You can tell because the side straps pull the wrong way (back instead of foreward). You may want to call USW and express your concern about the lining, and see if you can exchange for a newer/more recently manufactured one that would/should have the new style (i.e.-not puffy) lining. I think all the older USW jackets had that puffy style lining, and now they use the thin cotton. I'm guessing size XS isn't a real big seller for USW and they may not have any newer manufactured Roo hide jackets in this size.

Thanks, Michigan Smith. That's a great suggestion, and if I have the time and patience I'll try and crack the US Wings customer service enigma for the public benefit and post any findings here. Others are more than welcome to take up the torch though.

But I'm afraid, even with the cotton lining (like in _'s Roo on the main site), it would still not fit as snugly as I'd expect in an Indy (check out ShanghaiJack's goatskin Wested gallery for what I mean). I found that USW sizes run large, as people warned me at the outset. As much as I love the oh-so-thin kangaroo skin, unless I can get something custom fitted, it won't fly.

Granite

I checked with Aero and the Californian is indeed made from American buffalo (bison). That is an intriguing leather jacket.

Axel

I checked with Aero and the Californian is indeed made from American buffalo (bison). That is an intriguing leather jacket.

Thats what they had originally told me when I purchased mine, so thats
why I didn't think it was a water buffalo.

This hide is very tough, and stiff. But once it starts to get worked alittle,
it begins to soften up, and the grain really starts to pop out!

If you look at the pictures I posted, look at the sleeve cuffs, and the lower
panel on the back of the jacket. These areas are getting worked more,
and they are showing their grain more and more very time I wear it.

If you want a jacket with a old, vintage look, right out of the box, this
is the leather for you.

Aero will make all their jacket offerings from any leather you want, so
you can get a nice buffalo A-2, or Highwayman, or Cossak (which, by
the way, is the same basic jacket as the Californian except for the cuffs)
or any other jacket.

Flathead

That orangy/red lining was reserved for only a few jackets that Wings offers....the VIP series (both Indy and A-2) and this 'roo jacket. The way David Hack described it to me, the 'red' lining was reserved for ONLY veteran ace fliers during the war, and so he had a bunch made with that lining. It's not a standard anymore, so you must have one of the old stock 'roo's there. Regards. Michaelson

The backward facing side straps-pulling toward the rear of the jacket as opposed to pulling towards the front. Alot of those "older" Wings jacket have that going on....weird, though-I have NEVER seen a Wings with the X in the box stitching....strange combo there.

I have that red lining in my Wings G-2....it's SOOOOO nice. But you're right...the only thing about it is it's a very WARM lining. Almost TOO warm where I live (DEEP SOUTH). The lighter weight and lingings on the Expeditions have just proven perfect for my climate.

And yes, I DID go through SEVERAL jackets before getting into an Expedition....and now own two of them-a goatskin and the distressed cowhide. But such is my cerebral wiring that I'm now craving another Wested in my closet (and it'll have to be a distressed cowhide, because that is their BEST leather hands down, IMO), so since something would have to go to make room, I'm seeing if there's any interest in that distressed cowhide. Probably not for what I need to get out of it, and that's fine because I don't really WANT to sell it-it's just if I WERE to get another Wested, Mrs. Indydawg would INSIST that something go to pay for it, and two cowhides just don't make sense....so....that's my insane rationale anyway!

But the Expedition is one fine jacket....one that I'll always have one of, I can tell you that....and I feel the same about the Aero A-2. If that's any indication of their quality, then it stands as a testament.

Later!
Indydawg

The FS is no longer even on the table....I don't know WHAT I was thinking....LOL!

Later y'all!
Indydawg

Indydawg wrote:it'll have to be a distressed cowhide, because that is their BEST leather hands down, IMO

Have you seen Wested's distressed cowhide in person, Indydawg? I really admire the leather swatch on their website, but I just want to be sure that the color's right. Does it really look like that picture with the coins? If so, I'll going to phone in my measurements right away. After all, first priority is the Indy jacket, as it should be.

And thanks again Michaelson for doing my homework on the 'roo.

[Because I made the mistake of changing my account email, I had to create another account, but same old Granite here]

Granite,

PM sent regarding account status.