Club Obi Wan

I don't know if this is the right forum to post this. If not, just move it please.
All right, a few months ago, I send an email to Lee with my order for a Radiers fedora and a bag strap. After months without a reply, I send him another one and he just answered that he didn't get my first email and recommended to call him on his cell phone.
Thing is, I know I wouldn't be able to have a real conversation with him and really express what I want because my written English might be ok, but I have lots of trouble talking in English, especially on the phone where it is even harder to understand the other person
So my question is, would anybody be willing to help me out with this and call him for me? (PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEE )
I'd provide you with all information of what I need, my adress and so on.
BTW, does Lee except PayPal?
So if anybody takes pity on a poor German girl, please shoot me a PM.

Is it a US phone number?

Yes, though I don't have it off the top of my head. I believe it's a California number, if not somehwere "near" there.

Okay, then.

Quantum, I'd like to help with this, althought I don't know when I might be able to do it, as tonight is a busy night for me. Go ahead and PM me the info you need to give him as well as the phone number when you have it.

Lee Keppler: 619 - 647 - 6744
He will be glad to hear from you!

Regards
I J

Hey Flattery,

I have free long distance, if it is going to cost you anything, I would be glad to do it and it won't cost a dime.

It's no problem, I've got free long distance on my cellphone, and I just got off the phone with him. Hear that, Quantum? I sent you a PM

I do appreciate the offer, Bufflehead. Thanks

Bigger question is, why do you want a Keppler in the first place?

Have you seen Fedora's work? (You actually stand a chance of getting it in this lifetime, too... Just look at my fellow countryman, Neolithic, who is still waiting on Keppler from last year AFAIK).

Have you not thought about bashing your own Akubra? That's fun.

Just trying to point out that there are many options here. And, as a secondary point, that you might wait forever for your Keppler. Your experience with the first e-mail going unanswered for months and months is, sadly, not unique.

And, as a secondary point, that you might wait forever for your Keppler. Your experience with the first e-mail going unanswered for months and months is, sadly, not unique.

When I spoke to him he stated he had materials ordered, plus he has the flu, so he gave me a timeframe of 6-7 weeks for a completed hat. *shrug*

Flattery wrote:

And, as a secondary point, that you might wait forever for your Keppler. Your experience with the first e-mail going unanswered for months and months is, sadly, not unique.

When I spoke to him he stated he had materials ordered, plus he has the flu, so he gave me a timeframe of 6-7 weeks for a completed hat. *shrug*

Good luck! Like I said, Neolithic has been waiting since last year.

Well, I set out to do another COW member a favor, so that's the extent in my involvement. I, myself, am planning on purchasing a hat from Fedora when able. I'm sorry to hear about that wait, though. I know I couldn't wait that long.

I called Lee sometime early this year or late last year about my order after months of nothing. He said he'd just got an order in with my size and he'd ship it out that week. A few months after, still nothing had happened. I emailed him, no response- I sent him a PM here, in which he said it'd ship out on Wednesday- this was in early September- see below.

Sorry Dan.
I'll ship it when I get back from Phoenix Wed. Lee

What had happened? I don't know, but it is a point of frustration for me. I'm not in a position to be able to make expensive international calls. To follow up on my previous follow ups.

The guy is definately apologetic and I'm not angry, but I've given up. I hope I see my money back somehow- in hat or refund. In my experience the Keppler route has been upsetting and I would not take the same route if I were you.

I'd go with a Fedora Adventurebilt as Rob suggests and save yourself the worry. Anyway, I usually don't like talking like this, but well... it's just been the way things have turned out.

You guys are sooooo patient and nice. Next time I have a drink I'll drink to you guys.

Any excuse, eh?

I know I wouldn't be able to bash my own fed, so now Akubra for me. I'd just mess up, and I've been thinking about what hat to get for a long time. I like fedoras hats too, but I've wanted a Keppler for a year or so now.
I don't mind the wait either 'cause from what I've read, the long wait is well worth it if you're finally holding the hat in your hand.

Thanks again to Flattery!!!!!

While I have heard a few people say that they had a long wait to receive an order from Lee, I had no trouble at all. Earlier this year, I ordered a fedora from him and he said it would be 6-8 weeks. In 6 weeks, I had the hat in my hands.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:While I have heard a few people say that they had a long wait to receive an order from Lee, I had no trouble at all. Earlier this year, I ordered a fedora from him and he said it would be 6-8 weeks. In 6 weeks, I had the hat in my hands.

See, that's just bizarre. Neolithic has been waiting since 2003 - and been given all manner of bull**** excuses. We're about to go into 2005 for crying out loud - and still nothing.

Why do we seem to have reasonable timeframes for some people (although, in the real world, six weeks is pretty stupid in itself), and absolutely ridiculous timeframes for others... like a year, and counting, for Neolithic?

Keppler doesn't seem to have any clue about customer service and I, personally, wouldn't touch this vendor with a bargepole. Crikey, I get uptight when someone wins something from me on eBay and I can't send it for a day or two. Imagine if I waited a year...

Fedora is making better hats, anyway.

QuantumGirl, from what I've heard, the Keepler hats are indeed nice hats. However, if this is your first real "indy" fefora, I would highly recommend getting one of Fedora's AdventureBilt hats first and THEN saving up for a Keepler. That way, you won't have to wait nearly as long for an EXCELLENT fedora, and you might find the unpredictable wait time for the Keppler less frustrating. Heck, you may even find there's no need for the Keppler.

Now I'm not bashing Lee here, since I know he's a fantastic person from what I've heard, but Fedora's hats are CUSTOM made from the ground up and created the way hats were made during the time of Indiana Jones. I have been waiting patiently (well, trying to, anyway) ever since Fedora announced his plans. If I had the choice between a Keppler and an AdventureBilt and the waiti time was going to be exactly the same for both of them, I'd still go hands down for the AdventureBilt! Go with Fedora first, and THEN go with the Keppler, in my opinion.

bink

Well, he's got three choices, remember: pure rabbit, nutria (a beaver blend) and 100% beaver.

I just wanted to remind folks who may not remember that they have choices to suit their budgets. Though for the price, I'm going with the 100% beaver!

Indeed he is. At his prices, considering the materials, it's a steal.

He says they are sitting in Florida as we speak.

Well if they're in Florida, he can forget about getting them. That state can't even keep track of it's votes, how's it gonna keep track of 100 bodies of beaver felt? Kidding, kidding. These guys are right, QuatumGirl, hold out for an Adventurebilt, one custom made hat of light beaver fur just the way they were in the '30's. :junior: -IJ

binkmeisterRick wrote:Well, he's got three choices, remember: pure rabbit, nutria (a beaver blend) and 100% beaver.

Nutria is a furry, South American rodent. I think it is closer to an otter than a beaver. I wasn't aware that this choice had any beaver content.

I was under the impression it was a blend, but I could be getting my information mixed up.

binkmeisterRick wrote:I was under the impression it was a blend, but I could be getting my information mixed up.

Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

Fedora wrote:This is some really good, high quality felt. I will, as said before, offer a pure beaver, a 80/20 Nutria rabbit blend, and a 80/20 rabbit nutria blend. All good stuff. Now, the bad news. I had priced my original felt out at 200, 150, and 100 respectively. I just found out what the Argentine felt is gonna cost me more, and I have to raise the prices. I hate it, as I was trying to provide a superior felted Indy hat at real reasonable prices. They are still reasonable, but higher. Now, the new prices will be, 225.00, 185.00 and 135.00 repectively. I figure the rabbit is still competitive with other brands, but I will have great prices on the pure beaver and nutria/rabbit blend.

As for the Keppler, I enjoy mine, but I can see how being an international customer of Lee's could be frustrating. I thought I waited a long time (9 months), but Neolithic's wait "wins the ceegar".

What size do you wear Quantum Girl? I am actually thinking of selling my new one.

Peace,
Cliffhanger

cliffhanger wrote: What size do you wear Quantum Girl? I am actually thinking of selling my new one.

Peace,
Cliffhanger

I'm wearing a 7, I think. But my Keppler is already ordered now anyway.

QuantumGirl wrote:I'm wearing a 7, I think. But my Keppler is already ordered now anyway.

Good! I'm glad you got it worked out. Nevermind, as mine is a 7 3/8. Keep us updated on your order.

Peace,
Cliffhanger

QuantumGirl wrote:I'm wearing a 7, I think. But my Keppler is already ordered now anyway.

Great to see you heeded our collective advice...

I mean, even if you take away the 12 month-plus wait and pretend that you'll have it this time tomorrow, I still don't see the obsession people have with Kepplers.

It's not like Harrison Ford wore a Keppler, or something. It's not like the Keppler is the most accurate IJ hat out there.

So what is the obsession?

binkmeisterRick wrote:I was under the impression it was a blend, but I could be getting my information mixed up.

Bink,

It is a blend. The nutria is blended with rabbit instead of beaver. In your post that I was referring to, you said, "nutria (a beaver blend)". I guess you could blend nutria and beaver, but then I am sure that they would tout the beaver content to justify a higher price.

Okay, now here is my question for Fedora. In the Fedora quote that Cliffhanger posted, it says, "a 80/20 Nutria rabbit blend, and a 80/20 rabbit nutria blend". Since there was no mention of a 100% rabbit in this quote, was one of these blends supposed to be the 100% rabbit? Or, is there two blends, one with 80% nutria and 20% rabbit and another with 80% rabbit and 20% nutria?

I ask for curiosity sake for me and to help clear up a possible mistake in the post for someone interested in one of these blends. For me, I have my sights set on one or more of those 100% beaver hats.

Rob wrote:

QuantumGirl wrote:I'm wearing a 7, I think. But my Keppler is already ordered now anyway.

Great to see you heeded our collective advice...

I mean, even if you take away the 12 month-plus wait and pretend that you'll have it this time tomorrow, I still don't see the obsession people have with Kepplers.

It's not like Harrison Ford wore a Keppler, or something. It's not like the Keppler is the most accurate IJ hat out there.

So what is the obsession?

Rob,

As I said before, mine took 6 weeks. Have you ever seen one? It is a very nice hat. It has one of the deepest, richest, nicest colors of brown that I have seen on a hat. It also has some beaver content, which usually jacks up the price. Lee is one of the best around at bashing a hat and he will bash it for you. It has a nice sweatband and liner. The quality of the felt is very good. Considering all of this, I say it is quite a steal at less than 150 bucks.

I would not try to discourage anyone from ordering from Lee. However, I have heard some tales of ridiculously long wait times. Some of the moaning and groaning has another side to the story. There are probably some legitimate complaints. I recommend calling him if you have problem. I don't think that Lee is the type of person that would not resolve a complaint. But, I have come to the conclusion that he is not very computer savvy, and thus the recommendation to call him.

A few months ago, I think the Keppler would have been my number one recommendation to anyone looking to spend $150 or less. Now, I would have to advise someone to look at what Fedora has to offer. To meet the less than $150 price point, the only hat available from Fedora would be the 100% rabbit. The nutria/rabbit blend would be slightly more at $185. The one thing that neither of these two offerings from Fedora has, is the beaver content. I think the Keppler would still be very competitive with either of these two choices from Fedora.

Nothing touches the 100% beaver Adventurebilt, in my opinion. Of course, this is going on Fedora's opinion of his own hats, since I have not actually seen one, yet. But, we all value Fedora's opinion on hats, very highly around these parts.

So Rob, it's different strokes for different folks. Some people like Fords, some people like Chevys. Some folks gotta have it now and buy one off the lot. Some folks would rather order it and wait. I guess it's what makes the world go round.

Found On a Roadside, Dead?

Melty Man wrote:

I mean, even if you take away the 12 month-plus wait and pretend that you'll have it this time tomorrow, I still don't see the obsession people have with Kepplers.

It's not like Harrison Ford wore a Keppler, or something. It's not like the Keppler is the most accurate IJ hat out there.

So, um, you don't like the Kepplers, eh? Did you have a problem with one?

Nope; have just been on the end of Lee's endless wait e-mails, and have heard enough stories of people waiting incredible amounts of time for their hats to know that this is one vendor who takes his customers for granted. Call me crazy, but I don't have to respect that.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:As I said before, mine took 6 weeks.

Which is absolutely the exception, rather than the rule, from all the threads I've digested in this place. In light of this, I think such a comment needs to be backed up with a mention that this is a rare occurance, lest you give people the idea that it will be six weeks. Already in this thread someone has mentioned eight months... Neo is over a year... etc.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Have you ever seen one? It is a very nice hat. It has one of the deepest, richest, nicest colors of brown that I have seen on a hat. It also has some beaver content, which usually jacks up the price. Lee is one of the best around at bashing a hat and he will bash it for you. It has a nice sweatband and liner. The quality of the felt is very good. Considering all of this, I say it is quite a steal at less than 150 bucks.

With all due respect, there is nothing too profound about the hat you just described - it sounds like a 'nice' hat. And particularly in light of what Fedora is now offering, it becomes even less profund. Further, Fedora is actually on e-mail, on the Web, answers often within 24 hours and is completely accountable for what he's doing, what his delays are, etc. With Lee, you have no idea what's going on. People mutter about being at gun shows, or not being tech savvy. Well... so what? Others suggest calling direct; people like Neolithic have done just that, for no result, even a year on.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:So Rob, it's different strokes for different folks. Some people like Fords, some people like Chevys. Some folks gotta have it now and buy one off the lot. Some folks would rather order it and wait. I guess it's what makes the world go round.

Agree. But I think there's also a case for the friendly neighbour who sticks their head over the fence sometimes and says, "Hey neighbour, I know you like that Chevy, but did you know that Ford are releasing a higher specc'd car, that looks better, and has no wait time?"

Informed decisions are smart decisions. I get the feeling that some of the oomph behind your e-mail is that you have a Keppler and feel inclined to 'defend' it to some degree. I'm not bound by such a thing, so perhaps it's easier for me to call a spade a spade in this situation; I don't know.

Noted, that you would now recommend Fedora, too.

Quantum Girl, did you get through to Lee and place an order?
If he replies please ask him what's going on with the order of Dan in Australia... )

Which is absolutely the exception, rather than the rule, from all the threads I've digested in this place. In light of this, I think such a comment needs to be backed up with a mention that this is a rare occurance, lest you give people the idea that it will be six weeks. Already in this thread someone has mentioned eight months... Neo is over a year... etc.

It sounds to me like you are bashing a vendor that you have never bought an item from and have no personal experience on which to draw. Well, so and so said that he has been waiting over a year, etc. etc.

Lee has sold a bunch of hats over the years. I see pics of gearheads wearing them at summits all the time. Not everyone has a complaint about Lee. Having said that, I think people have made enough posts about Lee that someone reading this forum can make an informed decision as to wether they want to do business with this vendor or not. I just don't like someone jumping on the bandwagon to help bash someone. I must admit that if it was my business, I would do things differently.

With all due respect, there is nothing too profound about the hat you just described - it sounds like a 'nice' hat. And particularly in light of what Fedora is now offering, it becomes even less profund. Further, Fedora is actually on e-mail, on the Web, answers often within 24 hours and is completely accountable for what he's doing, what his delays are, etc. With Lee, you have no idea what's going on. People mutter about being at gun shows, or not being tech savvy. Well... so what? Others suggest calling direct; people like Neolithic have done just that, for no result, even a year on.

Rob, name another Indy fedora that has beaver content, including any hat offered by Fedora, that costs $145 or less? (Bufflehead patiently humming the Jeopardy theme)

Agree. But I think there's also a case for the friendly neighbour who sticks their head over the fence sometimes and says, "Hey neighbour, I know you like that Chevy, but did you know that Ford are releasing a higher specc'd car, that looks better, and has no wait time?"

If you are referring to Fedora's 100% beaver, it costs $225 not $145 like the Keppler. Neither of Fedora's offerings in this price range have any beaver content and therefore are not "higher specc'd".

Informed decisions are smart decisions. I get the feeling that some of the oomph behind your e-mail is that you have a Keppler and feel inclined to 'defend' it to some degree. I'm not bound by such a thing, so perhaps it's easier for me to call a spade a spade in this situation; I don't know.

I have ordered a couple of items from Lee. They have come right on time and I have no complaints. The only thing that I can go by is how I was treated.

Yes, I have a Keppler as well as hats from other vendors. I also have a Herbert Johnson, but I don't have some undeniable urge to defend HJ right now. Maybe you can send some of my oomph in a totally different direction.

Yes, you can call a spade anything that you want to, but it still seems like you have never seen a Keppler fedora. You make it sound like I am the head of Keppler's customer service department. No thanks, I'm not looking for a job.

I don't mind someone posting that they have had a bad experience with a vendor. I think that it is good for the rest of us to be aware of the situation and it helps us be informed in making our purchases. It just seems to me that some people like to bash Lee on the forum and they have never had a business dealing with the man. That doesn't seem right to me. If he takes someone's money and doesn't deliver the product in over a year, that's not right either.

All of the information about vendors and products here are very helpful. But in the end, we all know that it is buyer beware. Everyone should look at all of the infromation and make an informed decision. Let's just try to be fair.

*DISCLAIMER* I have compared the Keppler fedora to each of the offerings from Adventurebilt hats during the course of this post. Having never seen any hats from Fedora, I still feel that they will be of the highest quality. I have posted several times that I want a 100% beaver hat from Fedora in both brown and grey. I think that when I receive my Indy brown 100% beaver fedora from Fedora, it will assume the lofty position of my favorite hat in my collection.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:It sounds to me like you are bashing a vendor that you have never bought an item from and have no personal experience on which to draw. Well, so and so said that he has been waiting over a year, etc. etc.

Are you saying that any of these stories I have referenced is incorrect? Because that reply sounds to me like you are trying to downplay the situation by suggesting I don't really have a right to comment. Well, all I can really say to that is unless what I am saying is incorrect, it shouldn't matter who's imparting this information, surely?

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Lee has sold a bunch of hats over the years. I see pics of gearheads wearing them at summits all the time. Not everyone has a complaint about Lee.

Yeah, because they got their hats

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Having said that, I think people have made enough posts about Lee that someone reading this forum can make an informed decision as to wether they want to do business with this vendor or not. I just don't like someone jumping on the bandwagon to help bash someone. I must admit that if it was my business, I would do things differently.

I'm not reading you here, buddy. You say that there are posts on the forum for people to make up their mind, and it sounds like you think this is a good thing - am I right in saying that? However, it's wrong for me to make the same kind of post that helps people make up their mind? I don't understand that. Either such posts are useful - and that includes mine - or such posts aren't useful. Which is it to be?

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Rob, name another Indy fedora that has beaver content, including any hat offered by Fedora, that costs $145 or less? (Bufflehead patiently humming the Jeopardy theme)

What, is this one people can actually buy - or a fantasyland one?

Ok, that's supposed to be funny, but like most wisecracks, there's a grain of truth in there. Is a year, or even 8 months, a fair time to wait for such a thing? (Keeping in mind of course, that some people are still waiting after all this time?) Is the opportunity cost of waiting to get the discounted price worth it? Many would argue it isn't.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:I don't mind someone posting that they have had a bad experience with a vendor. I think that it is good for the rest of us to be aware of the situation and it helps us be informed in making our purchases. It just seems to me that some people like to bash Lee on the forum and they have never had a business dealing with the man.

Hey - that would be like commenting on a politician, or even voting for one, when you've never met them, or had a direct dealing with them, right? My friend, life is made up of people commenting on, supporting, opposing and doing all manner of things with people they've never met. Heck, look at us... we're on the edge of arguing and we've never met.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Let's just try to be fair.

I am absolutely in favour of being fair. But fairness must have a basis in truth. As I said earlier in this e-mail, is there anything I have said which is incorrect or untrue? Has Neolithic, or has he not, been waiting for over a year for a hat which has still yet to arrive? Did the other guy not wait 8 months? Is it not common for people to not hear from Keppler for months and months and months? I don't believe any of these statements to be incorrect. In turn, I present them so that people can make a fair decision. No more, no less.

And that's the last thing I'll put in this thread.

Neolithic wrote:Quantum Girl, did you get through to Lee and place an order?
If he replies please ask him what's going on with the order of Dan in Australia... )

Flattery was nice enough to call him for me and place my order.

If he replies please ask him what's going on with the order of Dan in Australia... icon_smile.gif

I'm assuming you already have his e-mail, Neolithic. If not, just PM me for it.

EDIT: Nevermind, I think I tossed it.

Rob,

Here is my point. Let's assume that Lee Keppler is on trial in a court of law and has been charged with "bad customer service".

You are testifying. If I am Lee's attorney, for everything that you have brought up in this post, I am going to jump off of my chair and say, "objection, your Honor. This is heresay. Rob has no personal knowledge of Mr. Keppler's business practices as he has never purchased anything from Mr. Keppler."

The Judge will then say, "sustained" and look at the jury of gearheads and say, "will you please disregard those statements made by Rob and strike it from the record."

In simpler terms, it appears to me that you are just repeating what you have heard other people say.

In every argument, there are two sides to the story. I know for a fact that sometimes Lee's side is just as intriguing. Hey, in a few instances, Lee may have really messed up. If so, then he should straighten it out.

I don't know how I got dragged into defending Lee here. I realize that he is a charter member of the Indygear hobby and for that I have to give him his due respect.

I have ordered a couple of items from him. I also volunteered to call him for a couple of people that live in other countries to prevent them from having to make an international phone call. I would hope that someone on the forum would return that favor in kind, if I should find myself needing to communicate with a foreign vendor. I have spoken to him a couple times on the phone. But, I live over 3,000 miles from the dude and I have never met the man.

Quantumgirl, I am sorry that your thread concerning your hat went in this direction. I hope you receive your hat in a timely fashion and I am sure that you will enjoy it. Lee sells an excellent fedora.

I know I said I wouldn't reply again... but c'mon Bufflehead.

This isn't a courtroom.

The things I have said are factual. Don't lose sight of that in your bid to win the argument.

Peace, fellas... ) It's not that big a deal.

If it's not to much to ask, if anyone in the USA would be so kind as to call Lee for me, I would most appreciate it. If there is anything I could do in return...

Rob wrote:I know I said I wouldn't reply again... but c'mon Bufflehead.

This isn't a courtroom.

The things I have said are factual. Don't lose sight of that in your bid to win the argument.

Good thing it's not. They don't allow heresay in a courtroom. Maybe on an online forum they do.

Neo,

Send me a PM with the details of what the problem is and I will be glad to call Lee for you and try to resolve it. I have free long distance, so it won't cost a dime.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Good thing it's not. They don't allow heresay in a courtroom. Maybe on an online forum they do.

LOL... and it's a beautiful thing to be sure, to see that you're going to help Neo based on that same "heresay", Bufflehead

Rob,

Check your thesaurus, mediate and heresay don't have the same meaning.

Erm, are we on the same planet here, mate?

I'm trying to have a laugh with you, and you're acting like this is an episode of Matlock.

In a nutshell:

* I post about Neolithic's dilemma. You refer to my posting as reporting heresay.

* You offer to help Neolithic, to which I say it's great that you've acted on that heresay.

It's simple, and I find it quite funny. You can either have a laugh or be po-faced about it for the rest of the day; your choice.

PM sent.
Thanks Bufflehead, I very much appreciate it!

Rob,

You are making statements that you can personally not back up.
I admit that i have been guilty of this in the past, but i always ended up
admitting it. You dont seem to be.
_The Following statements are based off of what I currently know_
_if some of these facts are wrong please point them out_
Rob has never-
Touched a keppler
Touched a AdventureBuilt
Talked to keppler
Done business with Steve Delk
So how i ask you rob, can you accuse a vendor of something, if you have
no personal experience with that vendor, and not call it heresay?
I believe that bufflehead is making valid statements about what you are
saying about keppler, and i defend him.
Regards,
Adam

Adam, I have actually liaised with Keppler. His reply was so many months in the making, it confirmed everything I'd read on COW about his slow service, so I didn't progress the order with him, and elected to use a reliable vendor, also listed on COW.

You say, You are making statements that you can personally not back up.

Er, OK. I thought the fact that the very people I am referencing in my posts are also in this thread, concurring with me, was pretty good back up. Do we really need to do this and show how stupid this argument is? Looks like we do.

Neolithic - how long have you been waiting for your Keppler? I require you to answer to apparantly provide backup to the statements I've made in this thread.

There you go, Adam... the backup you require will be along, momentarily. I hope it brings you joy.

Rob,

Im not talking about others experiences.

Im talking about yours. look.

Rob Said:
You said,
You are making statements that you can personally not back up. Er, OK. I thought the fact that the very people I am referencing in my posts are also in this thread, concurring with me, was pretty good back up.

Adam