Club Obi Wan

Mike wrote:
For your later observations, I think you're more on the money. I think the timeline would be that the Grace jacket came first, then the LC one came in with "Frank."

Mike

I hope I'm not out of line here but wasn't the tag producer used somewhere (so many pages to go through ). If so, a producer named Frank. Where have I seen that before...

Yeah, it doesn't take a genius to work out that it's probably Frank Marshall. _ seems to have some seriously high-up contacts!

In earlier pages of the thread, someone mentioned that Tony had told them one jacket came from "a producer" and the other jacket came from "the production office".

Chris

crismans wrote: I hope I'm not out of line here but wasn't the tag producer used somewhere (so many pages to go through ). If so, a producer named Frank. Where have I seen that before...

OK - thanks to an extremely generous collector, I have got HI-RES pics from the cover of the Butterfield & Butterfield catalog as well as the black and white pics from inside. I'm just waiting to hear back from him to make sure he doesn't mind if I post the photos here.

I've got to tell you though - this Martin Grace "Butterfield auction" jacket does NOT, I repeat NOT look ANYTHING like the leather or details seen on TN's jacket #001/888.

It's a really weird looking jacket to be honest and the distressing looks very reminiscent of Last Crusade although as mentioned before, it doesn't have the snaps on the storm flap.

Chris

Indiana Holt wrote:look at the pockets my friend. ;-)

pretty big to.

This jacket is not featured in the movie in an obvious way. Look how wide the windflap is...

Still I will not believe the stories as planted here. ( I mean the story has been changed alot now ) I'ts hard to keep track of what actually happened. . Unthil I see photographic evidence that can confirm I'm not convinced.

CM:

I don not think this is not from the movie shooting, this is from a shoot for publicity pics, I have some of these photos and you can see the jacket looks very different as does the shirt, this was done before shooting.

Here we go guys. Here's the Martin Grace jacket as it appeared in the Butterfield & Butterfield auction from 1994.
Click on the links for the hi-res versions.





http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee16 ... ket1-L.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee16 ... ket2-L.jpg

What do you think of this???

Chris

It's strange, whenever I see a photo of The Jacket I think to myself, "this does not look like a Wested"... go figure.

Chris_King wrote:Here we go guys. Here's the Martin Grace jacket as it appeared in the Butterfield & Butterfield auction from 1994.
Click on the links for the hi-res versions.

Wow, so that looks a lot like Slydini's jacket. Notice how far away that left pocket is from the storm flap (haven't seen one like it before)! Tony DID move it over to make it more functional, imagine what it'd take to use it. The pocket and collar shapes are very similar. And although the grain isn't as pronounced as in the Slydini picture, it's more pronounced than I'm used to. Could be age, could be photography in both cases.

Valid observations Baldwyn.

However, we have been told that Tony's replica is of the HERO jacket, not this Martin Grace version, so you shouldn't be seeing these similarities.

I've got to admit, it does appear more likely that he's copied this Martin Grace jacket instead of a hero though. If he did copy this jacket though, he didn't get the distance correct between the stitching at the edges of the collar. Look how far away they are from the edges on this Martin Grace jacket. (Never seen one that looks like that either).

The leather choice on TN's #001/888 is WAY off in my opinion though.

Chris

Chris_King wrote:Yeah, it doesn't take a genius to work out that it's probably Frank Marshall. _ seems to have some seriously high-up contacts!

Wait a minute, I'm not a genius?

And even though I know it's not (I know it's not) that Butterfield jacket screams Last Crusade.

This thread has more twists than the "Memento" movie. Every time I think I'm getting a handle on this, something else comes up. Time for another summation from someone so I can keep up. ;-)

it screams LC because of the distressing..thats all..if it dudnt had that it would scream raiders ;-)

If you are to believe the auction description it is Harrison Ford's screen jacket. and it's 'Kid' leather

They also claim the hat has a 'simulated' leather band

Indiana Holt wrote:it screams LC because of the distressing..thats all..if it dudnt had that it would scream raiders ;-)

Point taken. ;-)

the distressing is definitely LC. That weird and overdone wear on all the seems and odd scuffs on the chest area. Are my eyes deceiving me, or is there a button on the bottom, under the 'nd' of 'and' in the text?

If not, maybe they distressed Martin's Raiders jacket to match work for LC?

Yep, that's one unique jacket, and not my first choice for replication! Other than the Wilson's jacket, perhaps my last choice! The Butterfield's lot description makes it sound like a hero jacket (since they say Harrison Ford). Wonder if that's how it got dubbed a hero jacket. I see what you mean about the collar, and would hazard to say the storm flap is similar (in fact on both jackets the storm flap outer stitch seems spaced similarly to the collar stitch).

Someone had mentioned before Slydini's jacket was posted that Tony was offering two hides; one with a lot of grain, and one without. I'd like to see the latter. I wouldn't go with the former either, but the choice in itself is interesting. A jacket doesn't really dry and crack because of age (not in 15-20 years, at least). But something influenced Tony's choice. Honestly, my guess is the Martin Grace jacket is somewhere in between, and maybe it's artificial distressing that causes it to degrade unnaturally (like dried out from acetone or something).

I think the reason it looks LC is because of the colour, which we can see is off because it's under unnatural lighting. Looks like a hurried or "obvious" distressing job? I mean the seams, and a some of the panels are hit, but the sleeve creases make it look like it was still hanging at Macy's last week.

Another question is, did Martin Grace later get and wear the HF jacket that was used in the first days of shooting and worn by Ford? The jacket with the Leather Concessionaires label distressed by Deborah Nadoolman.

seems HF wore different jackets during filming anyway.

Mike wrote:the distressing is definitely LC. That weird and overdone wear on all the seems and odd scuffs on the chest area. Are my eyes deceiving me, or is there a button on the bottom, under the 'nd' of 'and' in the text?

If not, maybe they distressed Martin's Raiders jacket to match work for LC?

Look at the black and white photo, too where the text isn't obscuring the jacket. Not saying there couldn't be button, but I don't think there is.

HOLY ####!!!!

Besides the cargo pocket size and the collar, this Martin Grace jacket has yet another EXACT similarity to the 90s Westeds that no other jackets have: The strap is placed lower, connecting to the bottom side of the cargo pocket itself!! (Holt, what's the techinal way of saying this again?) Check out the pic. In any event, the TN does not have this feature on any of the examples we've seen thus far. Therefore, its highly unlikely he's come across this jacket.





It's my bet that the Martin Grace jacket also has inseam strap anchoring on the back panel. Conlusion again: this jacket is exactly like the 90s Westeds. This jacket must be similar, if not idential to the Bantu Wind jacekt. Maybe not.

Which begs the question: Runquist, if the pre-Keppler-ized Westeds were so "off" (that alleged bellhop version) why o why is this jacket almost identical to the 90s Westeds? Keppler's 80s jackets looked quite different, right?

SO: Judging by the picture alone, Peter's claim of having based those 90s Westeds on the "original patterns" MUST be true. This was the original pattern: before exterior sitching, before piping, before the smaller cargo pockets..."and all that jazz".

This last Butterfields pic is another piece to the puzzle: through this TN discussion, we're learing a lot on the jacket's geneology and pedigree that was previously overlooked. Rock on!:whip:

CM wrote:

Indiana Holt wrote:look at the pockets my friend. ;-)

pretty big to.

This jacket is not featured in the movie in an obvious way. Look how wide the windflap is...

It doesn't appear to be the jacket in the auction either

sebas wrote:HOLY ####!!!!

Besides the cargo pocket size and the collar, this Martin Grace jacket has yet another EXACT similarity to the 90s Westeds that no other jackets have: The strap is placed lower, connecting to the bottom side of the cargo pocket itself!! (Holt, what's the techinal way of saying this again?) Check out the pic. In any event, the TN does not have this feature on any of the examples we've seen thus far. Therefore, its highly unlikely he's come across this jacket.





It's my bet that the Martin Grace jacket also has inseam strap anchoring on the back panel. Conlusion again: this jacket is exactly like the 90s Westeds. This jacket must be similar, if not idential to the Bantu Wind jacekt. Maybe not.

Which begs the question: Runquist, if the pre-Keppler Westeds were so "off" (that alleged bellhop version) why o why is this jacket almost identical to the 90s Westeds? Keppler's 80s jackets looked quite different, right?

SO: Judging by the picture alone, Peter's claim of having based those 90s Westeds on the "original patterns" MUST be true. This was the original pattern: before exterior sitching, before piping, before the smaller cargo pockets..."and all that jazz".

This last Butterfields pic is another piece to the puzzle: through this TN discussion, we're learing a lot on the jacket's geneology and pedigree that was previously overlooked. Rock on!:whip:

I disagree. Looking at the cover of the catalog, it looks like the strap is connected near the seam, not the pocket. Certainly not at the bottom of the opening like your jacket.

But my Wested has the same configuration as yours, also the same rounded pockets, same as the jacket the Blue Label Wings is made from. And now, some similarities with the Martin Grace jacket. It's not necessarily incorrect, but you can see how many people will argue about its screen accuracy

I disagree. Looking at the cover of the catalog, it looks like the strap is connected near the seam, not the pocket. Certainly not at the bottom of the opening like your jacket.

Point taken! It could be attached further back, as you point out. It's a tight angle in the pic. However, the lower strap placemtent is something notable and not usual on the "updated SA" offerings...

sebas wrote:Which begs the question: Runquist, if the pre-Keppler-ized Westeds were so "off" (that alleged bellhop version) why o why is this jacket almost identical to the 90s Westeds? Keppler's 80s jackets looked quite different, right?

The 'bellhop' jackets are 80's era, when Lee was looking for a vendor to produce for his clientele. He sent Peter a Concessionaires jacket pre-Last Crusade, which is why that jacket had the buttons and other nuances that Lee's Flightsuits had.

Heres my sit rep from camp Nowak,
I got to check out Gs jacket. Even got to a chance to talk to him on the phone, it was nice talking to ya, G ;-). Its hard to describe the jacket because it was soooo **** BEAUTIFUL!! First thing I will report is most of the price has to do with the leather. apparently the leather used for this jacket, shruken lamb, was a very popular leather back in the early 80s but nowadays its kinda hard to come by and its pretty pricey. Also Tony mentioned that due to the way the leather is its very hard to cut as far as cutting it straight. He also told me that when you get it you have to buy it in large quantities. So its not that Tonys trying to make a fortune off us its the leather. This lamb is really soft and stretchy aswell. I took a number of pics so Enjoy! (Note too all: Im not a photogenic person and it didnt help that Tony was being a joker when he was taking the pics) But without delay heres G's Nowak Raiders!
Shots of me wearing.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Nowak1.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Nowak2.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Nowak3.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Nowak5.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Nowak7.jpg
Heres the jacket itself.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... /Front.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... 8/back.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... tFront.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Pocket.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Pocket.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... htFlap.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ftBack.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... tStrap.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Inside.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... Pocket.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... agLogo.jpg
I was really suprised how well Gs jacket fit me. infact Tony said that when I order my jacket he is going to make it exactly like this one. Unfortunitly I didnt find out any new info on the original jackets he copied. If you guys got any questions feel free to ask. My mind is swarming with alot of stuff Tony explained to me about the jackets so If anyone wants to know anything specific I might be able to give the answer.I hope you guys like the pics. Oh and G, Thanks for being such a good sport about letting me drool all over your jacket I will definetly be buying one of these babies. When I slipped it on I felt like I was wearing an $80,000 original film jacket.
Best Regards,
Joe

Thanks for the report Joe. Make notes of what you remember from the visit.

That's a great looking jacket. I may have to start saving my lunch money.

Who says you aren't photogenic? I still say you should be the next Mutt.

RCSignals wrote:Thanks for the report Joe. Make notes of what you remember from the visit.

That's a great looking jacket. I may have to start saving my lunch money.

Who says you aren't photogenic? I still say you should be the next Mutt.

Your too kind, RC.

......speechless......


......tears of joy.....my last raiders jacket. the quest is over.....

many thanks IW for making that long trip and sharing the pics .....and now you've made this wait worse than waiting for an AB

it was nice talking to you on the phone as well.....tony is quite the character ain't he? after talking to him this past couple of weeks, he makes you feel like you've been friends for years. a true gem of a human being and i am happy that our lives have crossed.

quick question for you joe.......whats your jacket size? i can't peg it based on the pics and i'm a little concerned that it'll be too small for me.....but yet it the back of my head, i know tony nailed the sizing. your frame is deceiving

anyways i'm glad you made it back safe from your trip. when tony called me to put you on the phone he said, "that young fellow came in and grabbed your jacket and took off!". then i proclaimed, "whats wrong with you? you were suppose to protect that with your life!!!"

he also told me about how you were cracking your whip there and scaring the #### out of him ......thats priceless.

this jacket has already been conceived in an environment of gear fun. i look forward to bringing her home.

thanks again and regards,


G

.....now i'll let all the folks pick her apart........{KT, rundquist, you guys be nice now!!!.....ah ####, give me your worst!!!! }

Sorry but Shrunken lamb is a poor choice of leather for this jacket, a friend of mine has a G-2 Jacket in this same leather and he said it did not behave like other lamb jackets do and it does not break in correctly.

so its a 1000 dollars because of the horrible leather?
I don't like it, doesn't look SA at all, he must have mistaken the stress and pull marks on the jacket for the texture.

You asked for it...

...


...


Wear it in good health, and show us the pictures!

(Not convinced on the grain though).

Indiana G wrote:

......speechless......


......tears of joy.....my last raiders jacket. the quest is over.....

many thanks IW for making that long trip and sharing the pics .....and now you've made this wait worse than waiting for an AB

it was nice talking to you on the phone as well.....tony is quite the character ain't he? after talking to him this past couple of weeks, he makes you feel like you've been friends for years. a true gem of a human being and i am happy that our lives have crossed.

quick question for you joe.......whats your jacket size? i can't peg it based on the pics and i'm a little concerned that it'll be too small for me.....but yet it the back of my head, i know tony nailed the sizing. your frame is deceiving

anyways i'm glad you made it back safe from your trip. when tony called me to put you on the phone he said, "that young fellow came in and grabbed your jacket and took off!". then i proclaimed, "whats wrong with you? you were suppose to protect that with your life!!!"

he also told me about how you were cracking your whip there and scaring the #### out of him ......thats priceless.

this jacket has already been conceived in an environment of gear fun. i look forward to bringing her home.

thanks again and regards,


G

.....now i'll let all the folks pick her apart........{KT, rundquist, you guys be nice now!!!.....ah ####, give me your worst!!!! }

Your very welcome my friend. It was well worth the drive to hang out with my old pal Tony. seeing your jacket was just a bonus ;-) id say Im about a 42.I couldnt believe how well YOUR jacket fit me. When I finally had to hit the road believe me it was hard to relinquish the jacket back to Tony(Ah man...but it fits me so well ) I know what you mean about my frame. I have a short upper body and long legs. buying custom clothes is tough for me. Im sure your jacket will fit you. Thank you, G. If you hadnt bought the jacket I probably wouldnt be getting mine . The specs you gave are dead on. I wish Tony was able to tell the origin of the jacket. He did tell me though that the jacket you ordered is closer to the main jacket then the #1 jacket that was like the 2nd jacket Tony recieved.

Dutch_jones wrote:Sorry but Shrunken lamb is a poor choice of leather for this jacket, a friend of mine has a G-2 Jacket in this same leather and he said it did not behave like other lamb jackets do and it does not break in correctly.

so its a 1000 dollars because of the horrible leather?
I don't like it, doesn't look SA at all, he must have mistaken the stress and pull marks on the jacket for the texture.

Its not the sole reason but its a big factor in the cost. Tony knows his stuff when it comes to jackets and leather so I dont think he would choose an inferior leather just because it would raise the price of his jacket. but its a free market. to each his own.

Indiana Williams, you've talked to Tony did you ask anything about the backgrounds of the jackets he copied?

Because there's still confusion on it... did he copy the Martin Grace for most part or the Leather concessionaires?

thanks..

Dutch_jones wrote:Indiana Williams, you've talked to Tony did you ask anything about the backgrounds of the jackets he copied?

Because there's still confusion on it... did he copy the Martin Grace for most part or the Leather concessionaires?

thanks..

What Tony told me was the first jacket he reproduced had features of the leather concessionaries jacket. Gs jacket was more like the main jacket the one Tony is hush hush about. He was told not to reveal its source so hes a man of his word.Believe me I wish he would have filled me in on the full story but he didnt. As Tony told me the proof is on screen. The picture he showed me was a collage of Raiders pics showing certin features of the jacket such as the grain of the leather, no facings and the nickel snaps on the pockets.

Thanks for the pics. Nice to see one being worn.

Yet more contradiction surfaces though. If the first jacket he produced had features of the Leather Concessionaires jacket (which we've been told was THE hero), then it should have looked like the hero.

From what he's told you, the main jacket (which is NOT the Leather Concessionaires jacket) is the hero???

Since he only had 2 jackets to copy - this implies that the main jacket he's talking about is the Martin Grace Butterfield auction jacket (because as _ confirmed, the Leather Concessionaires jacket was THE Hero) but Tony doesn't seem to consider the Leather Concessionaires jacket as the "main" jacket???

_ - help us out here!!!

Chris

Indiana Williams wrote:

Dutch_jones wrote:Indiana Williams, you've talked to Tony did you ask anything about the backgrounds of the jackets he copied?

Because there's still confusion on it... did he copy the Martin Grace for most part or the Leather concessionaires?

thanks..

What Tony told me was the first jacket he reproduced had features of the leather concessionaries jacket. Gs jacket was more like the main jacket the one Tony is hush hush about. He was told not to reveal its source so hes a man of his word.Believe me I wish he would have filled me in on the full story but he didnt. As Tony told me the proof is on screen. The picture he showed me was a collage of Raiders pics showing certin features of the jacket such as the grain of the leather, no facings and the nickel snaps on the pockets.

I like G's jacket, but it kind of freaks me out because it looks to me as if my old Avirex A2 has finally morphed into the jacket I'd originally hoped it to be!

If a large part of the price comes from the leather choice, I wonder if Tony would use a different leather and lower the price for a jacket like G's?

I kid, I kid!

sort of

That looks pretty nice!! pretty nice indeed!!!

We're getting closer. The features look great but the leather looks way off. But as long as the buyer is happy then thats all the matters.

So, am I now to understand that we have seen copies of both jackets then?

Jason,

Indiana G's and Hatch's jackets are the result of FAN REQUESTED changes to the first jacket that Tony made.

In other words, I don't think we're seeing a copy of the "hero" jacket yet. Will we ever see it?

Chris

agent5 wrote:We're getting closer. The features look great but the leather looks way off. But as long as the buyer is happy then thats all the matters.

So, am I now to understand that we have seen copies of both jackets then?

agent5 wrote:We're getting closer. The features look great but the leather looks way off. But as long as the buyer is happy then thats all the matters.

So, am I now to understand that we have seen copies of both jackets then?

You mean Hatch and Slydini's? I think G's was based on his own specs.

Thanks. This is all so hard to follow unless you re-read everything.

Jacket #001/888 (slydini's) - First jacket shown. No requested changes were made.

Second and third jackets shown (Hatch & Indiana G's) - FAN REQUESTED changes to make them more closely resemble the HERO jacket. These changes are NOT the result of Tony making a replica of the Hero jacket that he supposedly borrowed for a day.

Chris

Finally!! Fantastic pics, IW! That is a sweet jacket, G. Thanks for the information, and finally posting pictures of someone wearing the jacket, and getting all the salient detail shots of it.

That's so weird. I have the same wooden plaque with the bird and round thingy he does on his wall. Mine's for placing second in my age group in a 50 mile race, so it's probably different.

Chris_King wrote:Jacket #001/888 (slydini's) - First jacket shown. No requested changes were made.

Second and third jackets shown (Hatch & Indiana G's) - FAN REQUESTED changes to make them more closely resemble the HERO jacket. These changes are NOT the result of Tony making a replica of the Hero jacket that he supposedly borrowed for a day.

Chris

Interesting it still comes to our specs to get the jacket too look like it does on screen, I don't think thats the way it should be though when having copied a hero jacket.

So, all we need now is someone to request an exact copy of the hero jacket as opposed to the other one, or their own specs, right?

Satipo wrote:So, all we need now is someone to request an exact copy of the hero jacket as opposed to the other one, or their own specs, right?

Yes it appears to be the only way to get it to look exactly right...

I guess I dont have the answers to your guys questions. A big part of the mystery is we dont know what jackets came from where and what they were used for as far as filming? Honestly though IMO When I get one of these jackets It will be the last one I get cause I cant keep going around and around with this stuff. All I know is Ive never seen another Raiders jacket that looked as good as the one I got to see yesterday. I know the leather may not look that great but once you handle it and wear it, theres no turning back. Im sorry I couldnt lift the vail anymore fellas I tried.

Satipo wrote:So, all we need now is someone to request an exact copy of the hero jacket as opposed to the other one, or their own specs, right?

Or Indy G specs.

I'm trying. However, I won't push the button until Tony can give me some confirmation about what I'd actually get if I didn't request any changes. If the result is something like jacket #001/888, I think I'll stick with my Todd's.

Chris

Satipo wrote:So, all we need now is someone to request an exact copy of the hero jacket as opposed to the other one, or their own specs, right?

Take another look at these jackets, guys. See any differences? (more from me after the quote.)

Chris_King wrote:Here we go guys. Here's the Martin Grace jacket as it appeared in the Butterfield & Butterfield auction from 1994.
Click on the links for the hi-res versions.





http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee16 ... ket1-L.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee16 ... ket2-L.jpg

What do you think of this???

Chris

I may be new here, but it looks to me that the jackets don't match entirely. I think the B&W photo IS a Raiders and the cover shot is most likely a LC.

Look at the drape on the upper part of the sleeves and the top front of both jackets. See a difference? Trust me, it's there, if only slightly. And it's obvious that the sleeve folds are different on each, as they were taken at different times. AND it looks like the strap is lower on the B&W photo than the cover photo to me. Is it possible they accidentally put the wrong jacket on the cover? It's seems likely since most people couldn't tell any difference between all of the production jackets.

Also, in reference of the hat and the "simulated leather band". The way I read the official catalog description, I think they may be referring to the inside banding of the hat. Not the exterior hat band. I'm assuming that's what you thought they were talking about, RCSignals?

If I'm way off base in my assumptions, you may proceed "schooling" me and I shall go back to just reading these posts. :<:

They look like the exact same jacket to me. Just lit / photographed differently. There are certain marks etc on both photos which match up.

Chris