Club Obi Wan

Ravenswood wrote:Here we go again.

TN obviously takes pride in the funcionality and wearability of his jackets. So much so that he has no business making screen accurate replicas of Raiders jackets. It even took several years worth of brow beating to get Peter Botwright to tone down his "off the rack" features to bring us a jacket that could pass for a Raiders hero jacket.

Based on what i saw in the pics of TN's "Raiders" (and even the earlier small pictures were good enough for me to go on), and at the risk of sounding redundant, I will get the ball rolling:

1. put some piping on the top of the pocket flaps
2. use vegetable tanned lambskin, with hardly any grain to speak of (notwithstanding the occasional ruffles ridges, which are the product of distressing anyway, whether getting yanked off the lamb, or scraped with a wire brush)
3. shape and place the pockets how they should be
4. and thin out that gigantic yoke...to say nothing of how the seems line up

That's really about it...We dont want to hear "Im copying the hero jacket BUT WITH MODIFICATIONS to make it DURABLE and FUNCTIONAL"

We might be crazy for wanting spot on Screen Accuracy, at least that's what I'm getting out of this latest offering....PLEASE make those tweaks and satisfy us crazies!

that's what i did

OH MY!!! My apologies Indiana G....I just re-read the posts....SOOO much reading on this, i think i was getting crosseyed near the end! I must say that this is the single most engrossing thread I ever saw on the COW.
Thank you again for your weighing in on the niggling details. I'm sure with your suggestions, TN will put it right.
Don't worry, im coming around *breaks out the smelling salts*

Thank you again for your weighing in on the niggling details. I'm sure with your suggestions, TN will put it right.
Don't worry, im coming around *breaks out the smelling salts*

.....i hope so.....got a cool G riding on it (some pun intended)

need some of my meds?

LOL! I'll have what G's having! (pun also intended) heheh ;-)
Cheers

Ive been corresponding with Tony on the phone and email lately and this week Im going to make a trip down to his shop. Im very interested in this jacket and I want to try and iron out the facts from Tony and get some good pictures of this jacket. Hopefully I can figure out why this jacket is so different then the screen shots.

As discussed already, there's no point in letting TN know what were the mistakes in 001/888 (although I am sure many of you already did).

That will lead him to correct the mistakes and create a "custom" jacket like Peter does. It will never be the "hero" jacket we see on screen because apparently none of the jackets Ford wears was not the one handled by Tony.

So the missing piece of the puzzle is for TN to say where he got those 2 jackets from so that we may understand what's going on.

And don't tell me "that's a secret" cause as someone said earlier "get real"

PLATON wrote:As discussed already, there's no point in letting TN know what were the mistakes in 001/888 (although I am sure many of you already did).

Well given that others have already asked for "corrections" in their TN Raiders jackets, I think by definition it has already become a "custom" jacket and we will continue to see some kind of evolution in the jacket.

And don't tell me "that's a secret" cause as someone said earlier "get real"

Ravenswood wrote:

4. and thin out that gigantic yoke...to say nothing of how the seems line up

As I've pointed out before several times now, the large yoke, seems lining up (and inseem sewn straps) ARE screen accurate! It just depends on the particular jacket Ford was wearing in a given scene. The point I was trying to make earlier is that there is no one true hero jacket, as many of them had slight differences. Therefore, it's an exercise in futility trying to nail that one since there were many! I think we might have to start labeling given jackets "Raven hero", "Temple hero", "Well of Souls hero", "Bantu hero", etc, etc...

Having said that, I do agree that what TN has come-up with -visually- is far-removed from anything we see on screen throughout the entire film but to me, it has more to do with the tanning and grain of that leather rather than the other (varying) details.

Have a better one, fellas!

There is one jacket in particular though, that is worn by Ford throughout most of the movie. This is the jacket Chris King is refering to. TN most likley wouldn't know one from the other. He's a jacket maker, not a gearhead, although we may turn that one around.

I don't know, at this rate, we might have better luck turning him around and running in the opposite direction!

agent5 wrote:There is one jacket in particular though, that is worn by Ford throughout most of the movie. This is the jacket Chris King is refering to. TN most likley wouldn't know one from the other. He's a jacket maker, not a gearhead, although we may turn that one around.

Well, obviously the jacket that TN was supplied with (wherever its origin) did not have those Chris King specs. Assuming that it was another 'hero jacket' with earlier "specs" might explain the the differences. It would not, however, explain the odd leather texture and color.

If TN could just provide a bleedin' photo of of that phantom jacket, it would shed a lot of light on this enigma...

sebas wrote:

agent5 wrote:There is one jacket in particular though, that is worn by Ford throughout most of the movie. This is the jacket Chris King is refering to. TN most likley wouldn't know one from the other. He's a jacket maker, not a gearhead, although we may turn that one around.

Well, obviously the jacket that TN was supplied with (wherever its origin) did not have those Chris King specs. Assuming that it was another 'hero jacket' with earlier "specs" might explain the the differences. It would not, however, explain the odd leather texture and color.

If TN could just provide a bleedin' photo of of that phantom jacket, it would shed a lot of light on this enigma...

the photo of ford sitting in front of the bantu wind is IMO inconclusive of lined up seams and hidden anchor stitches in the straps. are there more photos that support this? if i am going to revisit my thoughts on the design based on a photo, i would not use that one. maybe my monitor(s) aren't as good as yours but i just can't see it, i'm sorry.

we all have our own idea of what the raiders jacket should look like, pieced together from probably 3 or 4 jackets. maybe the TN jacket is indeed the jacket used when marion cracked him in the jaw when all you can see is his collar......who knows. maybe the seams did line up and the straps are anchored on the interior on a jacket that was on ford's back.....too much speculation. i will go with what i like on a raiders jacket and that'll be my hero jacket.

and on what TN has in his hands exactly.......i would love to hear about it........don't want my jacket to look like it, but i would love to hear its story.

Indiana G wrote:

sebas wrote:

agent5 wrote:There is one jacket in particular though, that is worn by Ford throughout most of the movie. This is the jacket Chris King is refering to. TN most likley wouldn't know one from the other. He's a jacket maker, not a gearhead, although we may turn that one around.

Well, obviously the jacket that TN was supplied with (wherever its origin) did not have those Chris King specs. Assuming that it was another 'hero jacket' with earlier "specs" might explain the the differences. It would not, however, explain the odd leather texture and color.

If TN could just provide a bleedin' photo of of that phantom jacket, it would shed a lot of light on this enigma...

the photo of ford sitting in front of the bantu wind is IMO inconclusive of lined up seams and hidden anchor stitches in the straps. are there more photos that support this? if i am going to revisit my thoughts on the design based on a photo, i would not use that one. maybe my monitor(s) aren't as good as yours but i just can't see it, i'm sorry.

we all have our own idea of what the raiders jacket should look like, pieced together from probably 3 or 4 jackets. maybe the TN jacket is indeed the jacket used when marion cracked him in the jaw when all you can see is his collar......who knows. maybe the seams did line up and the straps are anchored on the interior on a jacket that was on ford's back.....too much speculation. i will go with what i like on a raiders jacket and that'll be my hero jacket.

and on what TN has in his hands exactly.......i would love to hear about it........don't want my jacket to look like it, but i would love to hear its story.

Alas, it's the only decent Bantu jacket example around. What's pretty irrefutable from the above photo, however, is the low yoke, inseam side strap anchoring and lower placement of the straps. (Granted, the yoke/sleeve seem issue is more nebulous, although to my eyes, they meet.) One thing is clear: the specs on this jacket are different than found on the Chris King hero jacket…and it's on Ford's back. That's the point I'm trying to make.

In any event for more discussion on this matter and opinions from our gang of "usual suspects", check out the latest posts here:

viewtopic.php?t=5675&highlight=

Cheers.

from the photo, YES, the attachment on the back panel does look internal. and the strap 'tail' looks quite short. i disagree that the seams lining up is irrefutable as you say as that just looks like a shadow to me. it is still quite unclear unless further evidence is brought to the table.

i've never examined this photo that close but you are right in regards to the straps....as far as this picture goes. maybe they modified it to go to the outside when they changed from d-rings to pronged buckles (and to sliders in the end per what the TN jacket has). i really don't know and this is all speculation..........but its fun to see how everyone else sees things.

Indiana G wrote:from the photo, YES, the attachment on the back panel does look internal. and the strap 'tail' looks quite short. i disagree that the seams lining up is irrefutable as you say as that just looks like a shadow to me. it is still quite unclear unless further evidence is brought to the table.

i've never examined this photo that close but you are right in regards to the straps....as far as this picture goes. maybe they modified it to go to the outside when they changed from d-rings to pronged buckles (and to sliders in the end per what the TN jacket has). i really don't know and this is all speculation..........but its fun to see how everyone else sees things.

Maybe I expressed myself incorrectly: What I meant to say is that all those other details are irrefutable except the sleeve/yoke seem issue, which isn't crystal clear in the pic (although, like I said, I can make it out). Maybe some further screen caps from the Bantu scene are warrented, but it's a night scene so we'll may not have much to go on...

perhaps we can agree that the jacket in TN's possession is what ford actually wore for the night-time shots........

didn't someone (castor?) mention that the jacket in TN's shop is a 42? he didn't look like a 42 in 1981. more speculation i know, so i'll just stop right now and ride this thing out.....good night

Indiana G wrote:perhaps we can agree that the jacket in TN's possession is what ford actually wore for the night-time shots........

didn't someone (castor?) mention that the jacket in TN's shop is a 42? he didn't look like a 42 in 1981. more speculation i know, so i'll just stop right now and ride this thing out.....good night

We're getting a bit desperate now to place the jacket on the scene. "Maybe it was the jacket Ford wore while he was rehearsing his lines..." Might be better to leave it until the facts arrive, this is getting silly.

Im waiting for Tony to call me back but when I spoke to him earlier he mentioned he had a photo of ford wearing the jacket he copied. he also mentioned that the second jacket he had came from a producer in hong kong and was made by Leather Concessionaires(Im sure this info is allready known) When I visit his shop hopefully things make sense.

Maybe it was the Tom Selleck jacket from the audition video.

Well, I guess i have decieded to pass. Don't get me wrong, the craftsmenship looks stunning and Tony really is a nice guy, but I think the buck stops with Indy IV. He made the Indy IV jacket so it is, without a doubt, the most SA item out there in terms of that movie and no one can question it, so move over Wested and Us Wings but when it comes to replication of a raiders jacket, I think Peter has dibs. He made the original, no doubt about it. I absolutely love my Indy CS jacket from Tony, it really is stunning and is my holy grail of Indy stuff. Plus, the experience of playing around with a Original "Hero" (or whatever) Raiders jacket at Tony's shop was extremely fun. While his new 'Indy I" jacket may not be the most SA Raiders jacket ever, I don't think that should bar someone from getting this really nice jacket.
However, I won't say that this is the last time I will do business with Tony because Indy V is right around the corner and maybe Mr. Nowak will see his work on Harrison's back again, one can only hope!!!

Indiana Williams wrote:Im waiting for Tony to call me back but when I spoke to him earlier he mentioned he had a photo of ford wearing the jacket he copied. he also mentioned that the second jacket he had came from a producer in hong kong and was made by Leather Concessionaires(Im sure this info is allready known) When I visit his shop hopefully things make sense.

if you see my jacket #010, could you take the screen jacket and rub it all over it?

this must be what its like when those people get one of elvis's scarves from the blue hawaii tour and smear all of his sweat on their faces

Well I just got off the phone with Tony, so heres what we discussed. As many of you know he recieved 2 jackets that were used in Raiders. The main one had no label and is what we see as far as #1/888.the leather is something called shruken lambskin, which Tony explained was popular back in the 80's but is somewhat rare nowadays.He says thats how the leather looks.its not plated as peter stated. The second jacket he got was like I explained in my last post, He didnt really use much from that jacket.He told me that he has pics from the film of harrison wearing the jacket he copied. He will be done with one of these jackets in a few days and that Im more then welcome to come check it out before he ships it to the owner(Im not sure if its yours, G, but it probably is ;-) )So when I go down there Ill be sure to get a ton of pics of this jackets. but apparently this jacket has the customers custom specs so it wont be like #1. In short Tony is more then sure he has copied one of the existing Raiders jackets. He claims hes got the proof so when I go down there I will see with my own eyes.

Cannot wait, Williams!!!

It's sounding more unclear to me the more people try to clear it up. Until Tony furnishes some real details in teh public areana, we'll never actually know what the real story is.

Im still kinda in a daze cause he threw alot of info at me my opinion Im going to keep an open mind and let the jacket do the talking.

CM wrote:It's sounding more unclear to me the more people try to clear it up. Until Tony furnishes some real details in teh public areana, we'll never actually know what the real story is.

Im sorry I didnt get any concrete details that would clear this topic up. Im hoping when I see this jacket and his evidence, we will know more. I did try ask who gave him the jacket but he would only say that they were connected to the film and that he had made jackets for them before.

Indiana Williams wrote:

CM wrote:It's sounding more unclear to me the more people try to clear it up. Until Tony furnishes some real details in teh public areana, we'll never actually know what the real story is.

Im sorry I didnt get any concrete details that would clear this topic up. Im hoping when I see this jacket and his evidence, we will know more. I did try ask who gave him the jacket but he would only say that they were connected to the film and that he had made jackets for them before.

No problem, it's really up to Mr Nowak to inform us about his product. It's not anyone else's business to explain him and his gear to COW. So far we've jumped to all sorts of conclusions and that is what fans are like. We want to know and we want to know now. I just hope TN can offer us clear information.

If he wishes to reach the COW fanbase, he needs to understand that we're a fussy audience...

Information is power....anticipation builds interest....Tony knows exactly what he is doing and it's up to him to decide when and if to let us know his specifics....I bet he knows we are a fussy bunch.

nicktheguy wrote:...anticipation builds interest....

Would be true if Jacket 001/888 hadn't already been sold and photographed....

Indiana Williams wrote:Well I just got off the phone with Tony, so heres what we discussed. As many of you know he recieved 2 jackets that were used in Raiders. The main one had no label and is what we see as far as #1/888.the leather is something called shruken lambskin, which Tony explained was popular back in the 80's but is somewhat rare nowadays.He says thats how the leather looks.its not plated as peter stated. The second jacket he got was like I explained in my last post, He didnt really use much from that jacket.He told me that he has pics from the film of harrison wearing the jacket he copied. He will be done with one of these jackets in a few days and that Im more then welcome to come check it out before he ships it to the owner(Im not sure if its yours, G, but it probably is ;-) )So when I go down there Ill be sure to get a ton of pics of this jackets. but apparently this jacket has the customers custom specs so it wont be like #1. In short Tony is more then sure he has copied one of the existing Raiders jackets. He claims hes got the proof so when I go down there I will see with my own eyes.

sounds like mine.....snap some pics if you like, but you can't post them unless you smear that screen used jacket all over it....and i want a pic of that too ;-)

Indiana G wrote:sounds like mine.....snap some pics if you like, but you can't post them unless you smear that screen used jacket all over it....and i want a pic of that too ;-)

Believe me if he still had the film jacket Id post a pic of me wearing the jacket like a warm blanket ;-) .Ill let you know when I get back from Tony's. If its yours Ill let you decide if you want me to post them or not.
Best Regards,
Joe

you're a gentleman and a scholar sir.

kind regards,


gil

Indiana G wrote:you're a gentleman and a scholar sir.

kind regards,


gil

Right back at ya, G :tips hat: ;-)

Joe,

Looking forward to seeing your report. If Tony allows, PLEASE try and get a photo of the photo he has showing Ford wearing the jacket that he copied. That's probably going to be the most useful evidence you can get from your trip.

Thanks!

Chris

Look how new and shiny is the jacket in this photo. Certainly not croco.

For the record, I said before that this (below) could have been the jacket for publicity photos



and Michaelson that this photo is from the 1st day of shooting and Ford wore it so it appeared on screen.

Well the bantu scene does not show Ford wearing a jacket

St. Dumas wrote:Maybe it was the Tom Selleck jacket from the audition video.

No, that jacket was completely different. ;-)

He wears the jacket on the dock with Marion just before he gets on the ship.

Doesn't the Raiders strap point to the back?

Guys, didn’t Paterson already pretty much say (in so many words) that the main jacket that Tony used was the Martin Grace stunt jacket? At this point any changes that you guys would have Tony make are only going to move the jacket away from its screen-used pedigree. Unless somebody breaks into Lucas’s office and swipes the hero jacket out of its cabinet, this “exact replica” thing is never going to happen. The TODD’s jacket already has scratched the itch for a replica jacket with “hero” modifications based on observations anyway. Now we have two well-made stunt jackets (the G&B and the TN). Take your pic. However, if you guys continue on the path your on, Tony will either eventually say forget it, or you will end up with something that is “further away” than what the original product was (think US Wings). The only time a product has gotten more “screen accurate” because of “meddling gearheads” was the Wested, and that’s because it was so far off to begin with that it could only improve (it’s pretty good now). Cheers

Rundquist wrote:Guys, didn’t Paterson already pretty much say (in so many words) that the main jacket that Tony used was the Martin Grace stunt jacket? At this point any changes that you guys would have Tony make are only going to move the jacket away from its screen-used pedigree. Unless somebody breaks into Lucas’s office and swipes the hero jacket out of its cabinet, this “exact replica” thing is never going to happen. The TODD’s jacket already has scratched the itch for a replica jacket with “hero” modifications based on observations anyway. Now we have two well-made stunt jackets (the G&B and the TN). Take your pic. However, if you guys continue on the path your on, Tony will either eventually say forget it, or you will end up with something that is “further away” than what the original product was (think US Wings). The only time a product has gotten more “screen accurate” because of “meddling gearheads” was the Wested, and that’s because it was so far off to begin with that it could only improve (it’s pretty good now). Cheers

I agree


and yes.westeds jackets are very,VERY nice know..if they just really sit down with them.

I don't know if Rundquist's comment was directed at St. Dumas, but this thread contains several claims that the TN Raiders jacket is based on a Raiders hero jacket (although there are no claims directly from TN himself). All the jackets used by Ford in Raiders appear to have their straps pointing to the back of the jacket. My drawing attention to this difference on COW is not the same as suggesting that TN be encouraged to change his version of the Raiders jacket to incorporate the onscreen strap configuration. St. Dumas is more interested in determining the pedigree of TN's source material than whether he changes the jacket he based on it.

SD

CM wrote:He wears the jacket on the dock with Marion just before he gets on the ship.

Yep, he sure does, also shot the first days of filming.

The dock scene (with jacket), sub scene, and Nazi sub pen scene (both without jacket) were all the first shots of the film, and all shot in France.

Another good reason for you to go back and watch Raiders again, PLATON!

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, he did originally hint at it being the Martin Grace stunt jacket. However, not long after that he implied that it was one of THE hero jackets (after speaking with some of his contacts who were well connected to the movie and the jacket TN was loaned). That's when I started posting because I'm a bit uneasy about that sort of claim when the TN jacket doesn't resemble any jackets that I can see Ford wearing during Raiders.

Chris

Rundquist wrote:Guys, didn’t Paterson already pretty much say (in so many words) that the main jacket that Tony used was the Martin Grace stunt jacket? At this point any changes that you guys would have Tony make are only going to move the jacket away from its screen-used pedigree. Unless somebody breaks into Lucas’s office and swipes the hero jacket out of its cabinet, this “exact replica” thing is never going to happen. The TODD’s jacket already has scratched the itch for a replica jacket with “hero” modifications based on observations anyway. Now we have two well-made stunt jackets (the G&B and the TN). Take your pic. However, if you guys continue on the path your on, Tony will either eventually say forget it, or you will end up with something that is “further away” than what the original product was (think US Wings). The only time a product has gotten more “screen accurate” because of “meddling gearheads” was the Wested, and that’s because it was so far off to begin with that it could only improve (it’s pretty good now). Cheers

Rundquist wrote:Guys, didn’t Paterson already pretty much say (in so many words) that the main jacket that Tony used was the Martin Grace stunt jacket? At this point any changes that you guys would have Tony make are only going to move the jacket away from its screen-used pedigree. Unless somebody breaks into Lucas’s office and swipes the hero jacket out of its cabinet, this “exact replica” thing is never going to happen. The TODD’s jacket already has scratched the itch for a replica jacket with “hero” modifications based on observations anyway. Now we have two well-made stunt jackets (the G&B and the TN). Take your pic. However, if you guys continue on the path your on, Tony will either eventually say forget it, or you will end up with something that is “further away” than what the original product was (think US Wings). The only time a product has gotten more “screen accurate” because of “meddling gearheads” was the Wested, and that’s because it was so far off to begin with that it could only improve (it’s pretty good now). Cheers

Tony has the original patterns and doesn't mind changing them per customer requests. he is more than willing to work with you to get the jacket that you want, which is all that he cares about if you want to be his customer. i'm sure you can ask him to make a yellow raiders jacket if you wanted it.....and i'm sure that he has clearly documented the design of the parent jacket so my deviations won't cloud the specs when our sons and daughters go about ordering one.

whether it be todd's, g&b, wested, us-wings, the customer is always right.....if the vendor disagress, then we don't have to be their customer....simple as that. i didn't want a stunt jacket if that is indeed what it was....and i didn't want a hero jacket that ford wore in scenes that we could not discern the spec of the jacket, if that was what it was also. if i wanted a stunt jacket that is not accurate to what we saw ford in, then i'd buy the G&B for half the price (guess.....the really hot place down below hath frozen over) todd's custom washed lamb is just waaaaay too soft for my needs, and his jackets aren't bullet-proof. todd's custom cow is very tough and distresses quickly to boot....a very nice jacket with all the specs in place......er.......now what was my arguement again???

i want a TN raiders, that looks like the hero jacket, and has a superior blood line to an actual productioin jacket. the closest that we've come so far is peter's TOD. todd's and the g&b is based on _'s notes and flightsuits did not have the luxury of handling the jacket when they copied it......but considering what came out of it, _ must of made some seriously detailed notes for sure.

look.

Raiders jacket with the low yolk.exactly like the TN jacket.



so what I think is that Ford used this in the first shot.He has worn the jacket andthis to became a Hero jacket.Later on the pattern had to change for the jacket and Martin Grace used it for stunt work in the rest of the film.doesnt that make any sence?

have a look at slydini's yoke again......it's not as large as you may think. bare in mine the jacket is a size 50 also. that yoke looks considerably smaller than the CS jacket for sure.

I'm guessing that this was the jacket that DN distressed by the pool with Harrisons pocket knife and a steel brush?

Sorry Holt, I don't see any yoke there. The is a dark smudge but not anywhere a yoke would be.

JMO.

the yoke is quite large. look at the photo where he is sitting and compare that to the tarantula yoke....quite different.

also, compare that yoke to slydini's (accounting for sizing up). i don't think this is the jacket that TN has. the pics of ford, that yoke looks almost to be say 5" +, like the CS jacket.