Club Obi Wan

Colour is a tricky thing. All the Cairo scenes were heavily corrected in post production I believe. The behind the scenes don't help either because they have that 70's grainy reddish colour to it that it's hard to estabilish which is what.

Perhaps "screenused" survivor's hat could be the only reference picture we have, it's aged I know but I doubt with age a hat might change colour from green to red, at most it might get a bit lighter but it's still better than trusting a film reel.
no much help there uh?

As for the size, 59 would be too big for you, your only option is a 58. Not much of an option but that's what you can get.

I don't agree that hats don't change colour, they do. I have many hats that are a completely different colour under the lining, where the sun doesn't get to it. I have grey Stetson which has gone almost purple with age. And my old first edition Federation looks almost green now.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure. But this is the way I see it...

If it looks SA to the colour it appears to be on the screen then its SA. Just imagine if someone found an unused raw body from Cury that had never been exposed to sunlight. If it genuinely WAS the right colour but looked nothing like the "doctored" screen hat, then what good is that? If it looks the same in natural sunlight as it does in the film then i have perfected the colour. If its 100% to the REAL hat but no one can tell, then i don't have a SA hat.

Ok I might be wrong on that but still there is the problem of the "original" colour.

Even if you were in 1981 just after shooting raiders and you hold in your hands the actual hat, the colour won't be the same as the colour you see on screen because colours get more or less alterated in post production as part of the chemical proces of printing the film reels, let alone if Spielberg used colour filters as usual.

So the question is, does one want a hat that is identical to the one used for shooting the film (almost impossible) or a hat that looks like what you see on screen (this is a bit easier to achieve but still hard)... and I guess this is the oldest of the questions on COW, regarding any piece of gear.

That sums it up nicely Erri. Well put. I would rather get a colour that looks like the Indy hat WE know and love than an exact copy which, for all we know was a horrible colour enhanced by Hollywood filters.

Yes, I'm after one that nail's the film appearance, and comparing the SOC shots among ohers in the bar, etc. with the most even light, Cork seems to be right. My concern is that from what I've read, almost everyone thinks/gets Sable.

when I got the christies last year I got sable and I will not get it in any other color when I buy another. sable is perfect IMO

Snapbrim76 wrote:That sums it up nicely Erri. Well put. I would rather get a colour that looks like the Indy hat WE know and love than an exact copy which, for all we know was a horrible colour enhanced by Hollywood filters.

Well many thought the same about the jacket and shirt and yet those who prefer a more "as seen on screen" colour they end up looking way "off"... but that's just of course my humbe opinion. It often ends up being something like "the colour each person has in mind" more than "the colour as seen on screen". But this is just for talking sake. The good old colour disputes will never die, and not for no reason.

In the end I agree with Holt. Anyway I would still love to see a cork in person.

I really think Sable is quite a good match.

and this is why I still wouldn't jump on the cork yet.

Texan Scott wrote:Here is a better idea of the color comparison:

How can be compared a 70's behind the scene footage colour with a modern digital camera snapshot? These two side pictures raised some interest towards the cork as good raiders colour but the premises are completely wrong. Once again, that's my opinion

The Cork however is a cracker for a Young Indiana Jones hat colour (see Tremolo's YIJC hat)

Yes, I agree with digital shots. They are notorious for skewing the colour balance. Thus my question on "real life" colour. To clarify where I'm coming from, if you look at these shots among others:

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/188.jpg (even light all over)
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/199.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/187.jpg

...and look at the areas that aren't overexposed by the sun in the shot or in too much shadow, and can see a more neutral exposure, then go to the Hornets website and look at their their colour samples, Cork clearly looks more the same colour balance - the others have too much of a red hue.

BUT - I could be just falling into the same trap as analysing jacket measurements - images lie. But putting aside the issue of colour grading, I'm more concerned about the accuracy of the Christie sample shots vs. matching that correct tone in real life.

Yojimbo Jones wrote: ...and look at the areas that aren't overexposed by the sun in the shot or in too much shadow, and can see a more neutral exposure, then go to the Hornets website and look at their their colour samples, Cork clearly looks more the same colour balance - the others have too much of a red hue.

Don't know, the cork from Hornets Hats website looks to me as the reddest of all aside from "red wine"

Also notice how in this shot you posted http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/188.jpg the shirt looks white-blueish... and that's not really the case. I believe Spielrberg had to use colour filters because of the intense heat/brightness. If you notice the behind-the-scenes footage of the Cairo scens Indiana Jones costume looks pretty much uniform (all sand colour from tip to toes)... while on screen we can distinguish a brown hat, a white shirt (yep I know it LOOKS white in cairo) and grey trousers. In real life all these parts have a brown tone.

I don't think any of them are an exact match to the film hats, so the choice isn't that critical. I'd go with Light Sable or Sable. I have the Light Sable myself, and it's a very close match to the vintage HJ's in my collection, although slightly darker. The vintage HJ's (at least, the ones I've owned) are lighter in tone than some people think. I posted a color comparison between my Light Sable Adventurer and a vintage HJ Poet in Sable somewhere early on this thread.

Jack

About the only way you can compare color for color is to take pics of something, (unless you cannot be present to compare both pieces) such as a hat in full sun. This is the only type of natural lighting that will not vary, as your full sun will be the same as my full sun or any other around the world. Take photos inside and you could have any amount of variances, from flash and shadows, to natural sunlight coming through the window(s). The other variable that should be noted is that when you take a photo of fur felt, due to its properties, it has a tendency to absorb light, whereas some other types of surfaces, such as tile, or smooth surfaces, etc., have a tendency to reflect light, or the light bounces off the surface. Obviously, if felt material is say 28 years old, it will undergo some type of color change, given the conditions under which it was originally and/or continuously exposed, ie light, heat, water, perspiration, sand and dust, spider webs, etc.

Though color comparisons with film and digital photography is not an exact science, it is possible to be close. How close is obviously in the eye of the beholder. If you compare a material to another material, then the only comparison that makes sense is to compare both felts under the same type of lighting, a lighting that cannot be manipulated. In a controlled environment, such as a studio, it is possible to control the type of lighting and shading. As you can see from the photo above, I simply took a Sable and Cork felt, put them side by side, and photographed them outside. If there are any color differences, then it is due to the slight differences in the color of the felt and not anything I personally manipulated. Still, what remains is that the Light Sable, Sable and Cork felt fedoras are a close approximation to the color seen on screen, yet we do not know all the variables the screen used fedora was exposed to, nor in what varying amounts, that it was exposed to before nor after it was filmed. For instance, having been there, the dirt of the middle east is a 'yellowish', powdery earth color. I see some of this influence on the screen used fedora...on film, that is. The individual will have to make his own mind up as to which he views as the closest match. Having viewed the screenused fedora, as anyone has access in this forum, it appears to have reddish undertones.

Agreed, TS. I'd also like to add that digital cameras also do their own in-camera white balance based on what they "see". This further complicates things as they can take a shot taken in full sun and skew it. As a way of weighting up my options, I did these sets of collages comparing the Christys-supplied samples with colour-corrected shots of the Christys (blurred to clarify tone),and then with unadjusted, and then corrected shots from Raiders. The results are interesting.

Raiders uncorrected:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu16 ... olours.jpg
Raiders Corrected:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu16 ... justed.jpg

With the exception of the shots from Anjali, there is a degree of consistency. What I have noticed is that even when colour corrected to remove the warm, yellowy cast of the filters, the tone of the hat still skews to the yellowishness of the cork colour. However, the Screenused hat is clearly has more red like the Sable. So, your observation of the dirt colour could be the X factor in that.

To my eye, the closest hat to the way the hat appears in the movie is the Cork, or somewhere between the Cork and the Light Sable. But I's need more shots of the Cork to be more confident in that.

Thoughts / Opinions?

PS. If anyone wants to take any shots, especially of the Cork hat in full sun while wearing it holding a sheet of white copy paper in their hands, we could get a spot-on reference shot for comparison.

Tremolo, we need your help!

Show us your CORK!

Thanks Erri
So here are the pictures of my YIJ Cork Adventurer in the full sun, it´s a wonderful weather today.




Yojimbo, if you need bigger pictures for your colour comprehension just send me a pm.

Wow that white sheet is BRIGHT!
Nice colour, I'm sure you already told me about the ribbon but my memory is really bad, is it the same colour of the one they put on the Sable?

New collage up with that shot corrected & included.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu16 ... usted2.jpg

Illinois James wrote:I hope the Adventurer bashes easier than my Fed IV standard! I have two on order and still tweaking the Fed after two months! Must-not--use---steam!

My Fed IV Standard took its bash easily - I tinkered with it dry until I was happy, then enveloped it in a cloud of coolish steam just it to fix that shape. it's held it's shape well since. Perhaps that's the way to go

Yep that´s really bright, I´m gonna blame the sun and my old camera Later I´m gonna do some more pictures in the shade.
Great work Yojimbo!
The ribbon on my hat is a 40s vintage ribbon I got over a year ago, it feels much finer than most ribbons I ever had. Actually it was much lighter and didn´t really go very well with most shades of brown. So I redyed it and I´m still very happy with the result.
Here are some more pictures, together with my Raiders Sable. Sorry for the Fuller´s Earth, but I guess you get the idea.


Here is a closer shot with almost no Fuller´s Earth on the Sable, again sorry for the bright white


Adrian

Thanks for the pictures my friend. The sable still looks like a winner in my eyes... but then again, it's up to the customer to decide.
If any of you buy a cork adventurer to make into a Raiders be sure you post some pictures here, I'll be certainly curious to see them!

I've just been going through the movie to double-check the accuracy of the screengrabs from theraider.net, and have been finding that quite consistently the tone of the hat in the movie (as least on a PAL DVD) shows as a lighter shade of the Cork tone. Ie - if I had to nail where the SA shade fit in the range, it would be between Cork and Light Sable, as Cork comes off consistently the same tone but just too vibrant. Of course, it doesn't help that the in-between "Light Cork" shade doesn't exist. I just though you may benefit from the process...

But if you post any other shots I'll throw them into the collage for people's information.

I ordered a Cork Adventurer from Hornet's last week, so I'll get pics of it in the box up to it's final bashing in different lighting.
I also ordered it with a 5 1/2" crown, 2 3/4" x 2 1/2" brim measurements, so we'll see how it turns out!

Can´t wait to see it Kokopelli! These are the same dimensions I ordered back then for my Raiders Christy´s. Are planning to give it a Raiders or LC bash?

I guess Cork with a LC bash would make a terrific Venice hat

Here's a screenshot of the 3 browns offered at Hornet Hats.

Kok, good job on customizing the brim, etc. You may really like your new Cork? Let us know. The word is starting to circulate about some customizing features that Christy's will do for their customers.

Yojimbo Jones wrote:To my eye, the closest hat to the way the hat appears in the movie is the Cork, or somewhere between the Cork and the Light Sable. But I's need more shots of the Cork to be more confident in that.

Thoughts / Opinions?

...I have to agree with that assessment, as this is the conclusion I came to after owning all three. In the screenused fedora that appears on screen, basically, I see a brown fedora with reddish undertones, topped with a yellowish tan color that appears to be the presence of this powdery dirt, when the sequences were being filmed around Kiaroan (sp). Obviously, if you are going under a truck or are near a truck while it is moving, this yellowish/tan dirt would spin off the tires and onto articles of clothing. Also, in 28 years, there will no doubt be slight variations in felt color, just as there are slight variations today, between felt runs.

How long ago did Christys change their felt?

I've seen Mark Seven's Sable Christys and the colour is really nice and looks very SA to me - a golden brown and not guite as red as the sample colour looks above. I think its very hard to tell when they're side by side like that. My Fed always looked a rich redish brown until I put it side by side with my Penman.

I'd love to see a Cork "in person" but for now I really like the colour of the Sable. It makes a nice SoC coloured hat IMO.

If getting an exact color match to the Raiders hat is crucial to your choice, you won't find it in any of the available Christys-- you'll have to look at getting an HJ.

My Light Sable Christys comes very close, but lacks the original color's vibrancy. From what I've seen in this thread I think the Sable and Cork would be good alternatives too, but also fall short if you are looking for perfection.

. There is no one absolutely, positively, indisputably best choice here, IMO. You can just relax, choose the one that's most pleasing to your eyes, and feel good about the choice.

Jack

Yep. That's where I'm at easybox!

lantzn wrote:Here's a screenshot of the 3 browns offered at Hornet Hats.

Yes, these are the same as I blurred - and here's what I don't get:



Christies Sable on the left. This looks to have far more yellow that theses colour samples on the Hornets / Christys sites. I would be very happy with the tone of the "Sable" hat on the left, but it isn't what's seen in the sample shots. This is why I'm left scratching my head as to what to order from Christies now. I'm thinking I may have to bump them an email and ask for clarification on which is the more accurate rendition of the tones of the hat - their sample shots or these member pics.

And a final collage with the pic from Tremolo included (thanks again!). http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu16 ... usted3.jpg

If this could be any help there are some pictures of my Sable, hopefully you will be able to have a better idea of the colour. They are all shot under sunny weather

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... G_6372.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... G_6324.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... G_7446.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... G_7589.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... G_7623.jpg

this one is indoor with artificial light http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/e ... riSOC4.jpg

@ Easybox - you won't get a SA colour with Herbert Johnson. They've changed their felt many times. Read my thread "Snapbrim's Mission to HJ (with pics)" and you'll see photos of TWO different coloured hats, both labelled the Poet. It's quite a difference and not just the colour.

Snapbrim76 wrote:@ Easybox - you won't get a SA colour with Herbert Johnson. They've changed their felt many times. Read my thread "Snapbrim's Mission to HJ (with pics)" and you'll see photos of TWO different coloured hats, both labelled the Poet. It's quite a difference and not just the colour.

Well, except for my Mag HJ, my 2 remaining HJ's are vintage-- one from 1990, the other from 1993-- and I've sold or returned 4 others over the years.

I've had at least 5 of these at the same time, I think, and except for tiny variations they all matched each other; and the Mag HJ from 2007 matches the other 2 I have left.

So, unless I've just been very lucky, this color mis-match must be fairly recent thing with HJ. Perhaps vintage is the way to go for SA now.

Jack

It is my understanding that almost immediately after Raiders was filmed in 1980, there was a complete change in supplier. So I'm not sure your 1990 would be the right colour either. Hope I'm not shattering any dreams here

Snapbrim76 wrote:It is my understanding that almost immediately after Raiders was filmed in 1980, there was a complete change in supplier. So I'm not sure your 1990 would be the right colour either. Hope I'm not shattering any dreams here

Sounds like you're hoping exactly that. But no, no dreams shattered here; I've read the whole bewildering saga.

I'm happy with what I've got and that's all that should matter to anyone. And my "dreams" encompass more important things than hat colors anyway, as I hope yours do.

Sorry to go off-topic. Having compared the films many times, the Raiders color seems to match the other 2 films to my eyes-- but exactly? Who knows? Maybe a collector who owns one of the late '70's--early 80's HJ's, and also has others from the '90's, could tell us for sure-- if he can get past the "different lighting" and "color filtering" ideas being discussed here.

Jack

A HJ I owned from the correct "era" was a reddish brown. However I have no idea how many colours they used to offer (my guess is MANY). In later years (around 1984 and after) they only hat something like 4-6 colours available. But up until 1981 I'm sure they offered a huge variety.
So even having vintage HJ doesn't really help to determine which one could have been. Reddish brown, nut brown, green-brown... I've seen them all!

Erri wrote:A HJ I owned from the correct "era" was a reddish brown. However I have no idea how many colours they used to offer (my guess is MANY). In later years (around 1984 and after) they only hat something like 4-6 colours available. But up until 1981 I'm sure they offered a huge variety.
So even having vintage HJ doesn't really help to determine which one could have been. Reddish brown, nut brown, green-brown... I've seen them all!

Swales told me sable was the authentic color, and that's what I bought from him and, earlier, Lee Keppler; the one I got from Geoff Watkins, which he told me he bought around the time of TOD if I recall correctly, was also the same color. As I said, mine were ALL the same, and the ones I have left match my newer Mag HJ.

Jack

Was it you who said in another thread that your HJ matched better with a Light Sable from Christy's?

By the way, who's Geoff Watkins?

Sorry Jack i must seem like a dog with a bone i didn't mean to bang on about it. I'm just a bit jealous as I don't own a vintage HJ. No offense intended.

I, for one, would absolutely love to see any pics you may have of your vintage HJs.

I do have a 2007 non-Indy HJ and at the time of buying it I noticed it was a slightly different colour from the Poet, so my guess is they had a lot of colours to choose from once. Since going back there, it seems they have very little choice now.

I think its very important that you get the hat that you like and fudge what anyone else says. All i know is what i see on the screen and to me, the sable Christys makes a very nice Indy hat especially for the price.

Erri wrote:If this could be any help there are some pictures of my Sable...

Thanks Erri. Added:
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu16 ... usted4.jpg

Snapbrim76 wrote:Sorry Jack i must seem like a dog with a bone i didn't mean to bang on about it. I'm just a bit jealous as I don't own a vintage HJ. No offense intended.

I, for one, would absolutely love to see any pics you may have of your vintage HJs.

I do have a 2007 non-Indy HJ and at the time of buying it I noticed it was a slightly different colour from the Poet, so my guess is they had a lot of colours to choose from once. Since going back there, it seems they have very little choice now.

I think its very important that you get the hat that you like and fudge what anyone else says. All i know is what i see on the screen and to me, the sable Christys makes a very nice Indy hat especially for the price.

Hi Snapbrim76,

Thanks for the clarification and no offense taken. I've heard that HJ only sold Poets in 2 colors, sable and grey, but I don't know if that's true or not.

I already posted links to photos of one of my HJ's and my Mag HJ early on this thread, and I've posted photos of a couple of my other ones in other threads. I'm not too good with photos so don't hold your breath for new ones, but I will try. My oldest HJ, which is now quite battered and tapered, got a few favorable comments from members who advised me not to have it reblocked but to leave it as is. I love the HJ's and just wish the newer ones were of better quality.

Erri: yes, I have said on this and other threads that I think the Light Sable Christys is the closest match to the sable HJ's that I've owned, and I do believe that. I think I always added that I didn't believe the difference between their Light Sable and Sable was great enough to matter too much.

Jack

I've never seen a light sable, it could aswell be that they are not so different between each other.

eazybox wrote:Thanks for the clarification and no offense taken. I've heard that HJ only sold Poets in 2 colors, sable and grey, but I don't know if that's true or not.

Actually at least 4... brown, blue and two greys (around 1984). Those are the ones I remember.

Was the supplier Christy's back in 1980 as it is today? I'm curious as to how far back Christy's offers all their color options?

Erri, HJ offered 2 gray colors around 1984 or so, maybe earlier? Do you know which two gray colors? Could you post any photos of these? When I look at the infamous Raiders seaplane board, I'm seeing a darker gray than Moonstone or Granite? Not quite as dark as Carbon gray, but darker than Moonstone.

You can actually see two greys on the head of the german spies. In the scene when they are loading Marion onto the truck. One darker one lighter. To have them both in the same scene you have to freeze frame before the german shouts "schnell schnell" (sorry I don't know German) from the back of the truck, the other german runs past the camera in that sequence.

I believe the darker (if not the same hat at least the same colour) was on the head of Ford in the plane and in the last scenes of Raiders

Tremolo wrote:

I guess Cork with a LC bash would make a terrific Venice hat

Exactly my intentions!

This one is about 3 months old. I'm awful at taking pictures by myself.





best shot for color

blurry, but the color's right

What colour is that one, Mississippilong?

Light Sable.

hey guys
I ordered a christy's on Aug. 26 a costume job
and I still don't have so I was wondering how long it would take for a coustme job would take to ship to the U.S.