Club Obi Wan

Something just isn't adding up here. So far, we've got incorrect placement of the sleeve and yoke seams, incorrect (improved for function) placement and shape of cargo pockets and incorrect detail at the top of the cargo pocket flap.

If you didn't request any of these changes, I wonder why Tony has decided to deviate from the hero jacket to this extent?

Until some of these things can be explained, I'm out of this.

Chris

valid points Chris,

and IF this really is an exact copy of the hero jacket, Than PETER has been right all along, and this means that 8 years of wrong specs have been put into a 300 dollar jacket, making this a 999 dollars costing replica of a 300 dollar jacket.

The cargo pocket flap never looked that big.



[/img]

More "Alligator-ish" screenshots

Those screen shots show the pulls / stretches in that part of the jacket. It's not the "grain" of the leather you're seeing there.

Chris

Chris_King wrote:Those screen shots show the pulls / stretches in that part of the jacket. It's not the "grain" of the leather you're seeing there.

Chris

Yes, you're absolutely right.

I would like to hear from Peter an opinion about that dinohide: after all he made the original. The original jackets from ToD and LC look very different, distressed but smooth.

I find it very troubling that icons like agent 5 and chris king who have done their big share of research on the raiders jacket are not jumping up and down about this. After some remarks where made I went and checked pictures again and its amazing ho fords jacket doesn't look anything like the replica above.

very confused...

Guys prepare to throw in the fireplace all your jackets: dinohide is the new Indy style for 2008-2009 season.

I don't even thnk thats lamb, looks like a sheepskin jacket to me.

For the price point and the pedigree of the maker who had the actual jacket(s) in hand, this Raiders should have been a jawdropper...visually as well as in details. It's not impossible as we've seen Todd, Magnoli and some of these new custom Westeds are getting it done.

Unfortunately, from what I have seen so far....the TN isn't. It is NOT a bad jacket...it's a VERY nice jacket.

But the hide and some of the "corrective" detail just doesn't scream Raiders jacket to me. Kind of the same way that while US Wings makes a great Indy; but it doesn't scream Temple of Doom. At least not until Holt/Crisman's design comes to life.

I don't know: in the movie the jacket looks very different to my eyes. May be it's just me.

I'm toying with the idea of asking Tony to make my jacket just the way it looked when he had it, but I just like the idea of having a functional jacket way more than I like the idea of having a prop-accurate one! Besides, if I get a jacket made to fit me, it would be scaled down, and the inconsistencies wouldn't really be prop-accurate anyway if the size isn't prop-accurate to begin with!

Perhaps somewhere down the line, I might get another jacket made to Ford's specs, and ask for every inconsistency to be in their prop-accurate place!

And Indy G, the gloves are off! GO FEDEX MAN, GO!

By the way... Possible HUGE Revelation Below!!!

According to Nowak's measurements, the hero jacket is NOT a 40 as many were led to believe, but rather, a size 42!

Maybe a small revelation, but I just thought this was interesting to note, since I always thought I could get a prop accurate jacket that fit perfectly, being a size 40 and all... Oh well...

Hey I'm a 42!!!

I think I'm going to stick with my Todd's custom. 40 Regular according to the measurements given to Todd by _.

Chris

I used to have a 42 but it looked too big on my Ford sized mannequin. Also, I'd be interested to hear confirmation from Peter about what size the NH Temple of Doom jacket works out to be. I can't help thinking that 42 is too big for a Raiders although I guess it all depends on exactly where it's measured from.
Also, although I'm a 45 inch chest, I could actually wear the 40 Regular Todd's custom. Weird!

Strones its not you, its very clear the jackets are very different.

Chris the NH jacket is a size 40.

OK. So here's another weird discrepancy.
If the NH "Hero" jacket is a 40, but was considered to be TOO BIG for Ford, how can the Raiders be a 42 when he was slimmer than TOD???

To put this into perspective, here's a photo that I took at MBA Costumes when I visited Noel. It shows my Wested 42 Regular compared to Ford's TOD jacket.



Chris

Dutch_jones wrote:Strones its not you, its very clear the jackets are very different.

Chris the NH jacket is a size 40.

Yes that makes no sense at all,

I'm even more confused now !

I'm confused / disillusioned too. I'd really love it if some of these questions could be cleared up by Tony.

Chris

Chris, you've seen and worn the NH jacket. Peter said 40 on 2 separate occasions then I asked him.

I normally wear between a 38 and a 40, this feels like a 40 to me. It's also fitted for a 32-34 waist. (My guestimate as it is tight on my gut!).

I want to clarify that I don't have any hidden agendas here. People who know me will know that all I've ever been interested in is owning a jacket which is as close to Ford's "hero" Raiders jacket as possible. It's definitely an obsession!

When this news about Tony Nowak having access to THE HERO jacket surfaced, I have to admit that I thought my quest would finally be over. Tony confirmed to me a couple of times by email that his Raiders jacket would be "exactly like the original". I was excited by that prospect and kept bugging him to see if he was ready to reveal the jacket replica.

I can't lie about the fact that I was really disappointed with the jacket when I saw slydini's photos. How could this look so different to the hero jacket? My Todd's custom looks way more accurate (and according to _, the first Flightsuits prototype was the most accurate he's seen but it was followed closely by Todd's version).

I guess the quest for Raiders perfection continues.

Chris

The pics posted from Raiders that are meant to show the grain of the film jacket seem to me to just show the effects of Nadoolman's wire brush. Maybe the 25 years since filming have caused the leather to develop an exagerated cracked dinosaurhide look, which Nowak has now replicated. Personally, I don't think the Raiders jacket looked like that at the time. Scuffed and scratched up, but not heavily grained.

I guess the quest does continue but until now I personally think Todd is still in the lead for having a copy closest to what we see on the screen.

IndyFalco wrote:More "Alligator-ish" screenshots

IIRC, those striations are caused when the skin is mechanically pulled off the animal's carcass too quickly or with too much force. It's normally not present in more carefully removed skins or more expensive leather. Leather makers will probably reject skins that show this.

ie. you'd really have to dig to find leather that has that effect especially as it's not normally what is looked for.

Bad leather because the jacket was probably made quickly and very cheaply.

CM wrote:Bad leather because the jacket was probably made quickly and very cheaply.

Exactly but we all have come to love this jacket so who cares,

I personally don't like that look... It always bothered me!

J!m wrote:I personally don't like that look... It always bothered me!

Yes, I hate those stripes.

I noted some similarities with the David Hack jacket.

that is an early wested/leather concessionaires jacket Strones.

Yes but it's in possession of David Hack, and used for the USWings special edition.
And, the original hero jacket IS an early wested/leather concessionaires jacket too! ;-)

_ wrote

No hinting - Both jackets were made availabe.

The pocket is balanced - this is a jacket to be worn and functional. The original was not made correctly. I'm sure he will offer a "defective/original" version for anybody who wants it...

At first you were praising TN as being able to copy a jacket exactly...

Dutch_jones wrote

That makes absolutely no sense at all, why copy a hero jacket from raiders and improve it? thats just silly, we don't want that, we want a SA copy he should know that by all the jacket replicas of the CS he made?

agreed 100%

Chris King wrote

With all due respect, nothing was mentioned about this jacket being made "more functional" until your post so you can't blame all of us for questioning the pocket placement when it clearly doesn't match up with the "Hero" jacket which we all thought this was going to be an exact copy of.

I'd just like to know what else has been changed. Did he line up the sleeve / yoke seam to make it more "functional" too? We've got pics of Ford's hero jacket which doesn't have those seams lined up.

Chris

What more functional?. The pockets on TN's jacket are not balanced they are just off center from the other side.


whiskyman wrote

What is up with that leather??? Looks like dinosaurhide to me!! Admitedly, I've never seen a Raiders jacket in person - but that sure doesn't look like how I've always seen Indy's jacket on screen.

ha ha ha


_ wrote

LOL! It makes complete sense, pal...

"We want?" I hope you are either schizophrenic or have a tapeworm, because otherwise it would be arrogant to think you speak for anybody except yourself and a very small and eccentric group within these walls. I'll say it once again, and I'll type a little slower so you can keep up...

If you want an exact copy, I'm certain he will make you one... Digest that thought... You would get a replica of a really badly made jacket.

Most people want one that is made correctly - take the correctly executed details to get the right look on their own body, but put the stupid pockets in the right place.

"SA" is a pseudo-science concept made up by people who spend all their time looking at screen shots. While the original is valuable because of what it is, it is a piece of garbage.

really? "most people want one that is made correctly" ? You are saying that poor old slydini wanted one made correctly? Did he ask for any corrections? or for an excat copy? _ on whose side are you? The fans or the vendors?


indyrocks wrote

So the bottom line here is this:

Tony will of course make the jacket however anyone wants it to be. It is a CUSTOM made jacket after all. And I agree with _ that he'll put the stupid pockets wherever you ask for them to be. Same thing with the yoke/sleeve deal. Just because this first jacket isn't exactly what we all want/expect doesn't mean Tony won't do what's requested on the next few.

That's not the point, the point is if he truly has the hero jacket as he claims or not. By making a copy that is not the same as the hero jacket how does he expect us to believe he has the actual hero jacket? By saying "I corrected the mistakes"?


Chris King wrote

To be honest, I do not want to provide any lists, requests or specifications to Tony Nowak because if he's had THE "hero" jacket in hand, I would hope that he can replicate it exactly.

Maybe I should give it a go and see what comes out of it. I should not have to give him any measurements of any kind - just a simple "Please make me a jacket that exactly matches every nuance you saw on the real thing".

Chris

Exactly. Giving him laundry list is pointless, it will not prove he has the jacket that many of us don't believe he ever had in the first place. We have never seen any photos or anything.

During the course of time TOP SECRET army or government documents have seen the light of day and yet this jacket is kept more secret like if it's a matter of national security. And people come and say "I have the original hero jacket but sorry I can't show you any pics" and we're expected to believe.... And now they say... "Sorry had to give it back but don't worry I can make whatever someone wants"


agent5 wrote

Oh, I know, man. It's just that some people around here aren't don't seem too thrilled with those sorts of questions. I know, it's like the X-Files. You want to believe.

Which makes you think maybe you 're agent Scully. Sounds more like the Twilight Zone to me.


Baldwyn wrote

I just talked to Tony on the phone, and we discussed some of the reaction, etc. He says he can make whatever someone wants.

In that case let's give him the laundry lists we give to Peter and he's gonna make SA jackets for us. Yeah man! Are you serious?

But he's very very enthusiastic about the hide, and seems to think it matches the actual jacket he handled well.

Sounds like he tried to copy the distressing too.

IndyFalco wrote

More "Alligator-ish" screenshots

This is not Alligator man, it's distressing with metal wire brush


Indiana Strones wrote

I would like to hear from Peter an opinion about that dinohide: after all he made the original.

Peter's opinion is very well known. It's called authentic lamb.

Indiana Strones

I don't know: in the movie the jacket looks very different to my eyes. May be it's just me

That's it, the authentic lamb

CM wrote

Bad leather because the jacket was probably made quickly and very cheaply.

Wrong assumption mate. Neither Peter nor any other jacket maker would buy leather like this from their suppliers. They inspect before they buy.

Bottom line is regardless of what TN is capable of the photos are prima facie evidence that he failed to produce an SA jacket. I don't think this means "he corrected the mistakes" because he said he was going to make an exact copy, which unavoidably leads to the conclusion that he never had the actual hero jacket in his hands, or if you want, the jacket that we see on screen 80% of the time.

That's the leather I am gonna ask for my TN jacket

Good for you, PLATON. Be sure to post photos of you wearing it so folks can trash you and your purchase decision. That seems to be the norm for the past week. I'm sure Tony will welcome your business.

Patience has never been a virture we enjoy at this site, has it? Ah well.

Debate away. I'll wait until we hear the rest of the story....

Regards. Michaelson

Michaelson,
I don't think PLATON is trashing Tony's business. He's just venting his frustration about why the Tony Nowak Indy 1 jacket doesn't seem to resemble what it's being claimed to be an "exact copy" of.

Chris

Michaelson wrote:Good for you, PLATON. Be sure to post photos of you wearing it so folks can trash you and your purchase decision. That seems to be the norm for the past week. I'm sure Tony will welcome your business.

Regards. Michaelson

Which makes you think maybe you 're agent Scully. Sounds more like the Twilight Zone to me.

We're all in the Twilight Zone, but can I at least be Agent Mulder?

Indiana Strones wrote:Yes but it's in possession of David Hack, and used for the USWings special edition.
And, the original hero jacket IS an early wested/leather concessionaires jacket too! ;-)

I did not know the first.

No actually when peter made the hero jacket it was not yet wested or Leather concessionaires yet, I believe that was after or around LC.

Yes, but wouldn't it be nice / advisable to let people know the full story before they start sending their $1000 for a jacket that at the moment, is causing some valid questions to be asked about it's origins.

Chris

Michaelson wrote:Good for you, PLATON. Be sure to post photos of you wearing it so folks can trash you and your purchase decision. That seems to be the norm for the past week. I'm sure Tony will welcome your business.

Patience has never been a virture we enjoy at this site, has it? Ah well.

Debate away. I'll wait until we hear the rest of the story....

Regards. Michaelson

Chris_King wrote:Michaelson,
I don't think PLATON is trashing Tony's business. He's just venting his frustration about why the Tony Nowak Indy 1 jacket doesn't seem to resemble what it's being claimed to be an "exact copy" of.

Chris

Chris, you will always have my respect, but I ask you to take a few minutes, go back and re-read all 12 pages that now exist, and then tell me that all folks have not been trashing a business based on only a set of photos of 001, and jumping to the conclusion that it's based on the film photos being provided.
No, I'm sorry, folks are stirring the pot just to be stirring, and some are so deeply entrenched in other camps that no matter what is posted, discussed, or shown to the contrary, they argue, and it all STARTED when the price was quoted, and not when the jacket was revealed.


That's their perogative, but not mine.

Thanks for your response, but I'll sit this one out until all is revealed. I'm not in that big a hurry to judge.

For those long timers who have short memories, Peter had this same fire storm fall on his head when he revealed he had found an unfinished Raiders jacket in his store room stock pile that he didn't know exist, and sourced it to an Italian tannery to exactly match the leather of the jacket. He and I kept a running email conversation as it proceeded, as he wasnt' sure what was going to happen when he revealed it's existance, and I helped him post the news. When it was finally announced, this same type trashing thread took place.

It's now the revered 'authentic lambskin' you're all singing the praises of.

This happened when Marc revealed his Raiders correct ALden boots. He was drug through the mud because of the price, and you can find THAT thread. Now the boots have been delivered and photos shown, his praises are being sung, and a second run is in the offing.

So, bash away. The 'Nowak' pinata is still hanging there.....

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote

Good for you, PLATON. Be sure to post photos of you wearing it so folks can trash you and your purchase decision. That seems to be the norm for the past week. I'm sure Tony will welcome your business.

Dear Michaelson,

I am just kidding. The truth is TN made a good jacket but it's not the one we expected. Therefore he cannot claim that it's an "exact copy" unless he comes up with something that matches our nazi screen grabs (like desi's hat)

When I bought my first Wested (off the rack) I was misguided that it was a "true replica" and when I received it realized that it was far from the SA thing and was very disappointed. This happened because when I discovered Wested website I rushed and ordered it without having patience to read all the posts here with the people talking about what modifications were needed to make it more SA.

Want the same thing to happen to others?

Want the same thing to happen to others?

I've already posted what 'I wanted' yesterday, but was ignored, so it really makes no difference what 'I want', does it?

Carry on.

Regards! Michaelson

Thanks Michaelson - the feeling is mutual.
However, I don't think Marc's Raiders Alden offering is the same thing. He couldn't show any pics until he had them in hand, but when they arrived the other day and everyone could see them, there was absolutely no doubt about them being "it".

Sadly, the same can't be said for TN's Raiders jacket. Price has never bothered me - I was just looking forward to seeing the pics of the first jacket. When I saw the pics, it was far from being "it" and the resulting disappointment has been expanded due to all these contradicting bits of info / incorrect details etc.

Chris

Michaelson wrote

No, I'm sorry, folks are stirring the pot just to be stirring, and some are so deeply entrenched in other camps that no matter what is posted, discussed, or shown to the contrary, they argue.

That's their perogative, but not mine.

If you are referring to me, please note that I don't choose "vendor", I choose "product". I am not with anyone's camp.

edited post so not to stir pot.

I am also waiting to see what will happen.

Chris_King wrote:Thanks Michaelson - the feeling is mutual.
However, I don't think Marc's Raiders Alden offering is the same thing. He couldn't show any pics until he had them in hand, but when they arrived the other day and everyone could see them, there was absolutely no doubt about them being "it".

Sadly, the same can't be said for TN's Raiders jacket. Price has never bothered me - I was just looking forward to seeing the pics of the first jacket. When I saw the pics, it was far from being "it" and the resulting disappointment has been expanded due to all these contradicting bits of info / incorrect details etc.

Chris

PLus up until yesterday it wasn't sure which jacket TN actually had in hand to copy.

PLATON wrote:[If you are referring to me, please note that I don't choose "vendor", I choose "product". I am not with anyone's camp.

edited post so not to stir pot.

I am also waiting to see what will happen.

Did I mention your name, PLATON?

Regards! Michaelson

No but you posted just after my post.

Dutch_jones wrote:
No actually when peter made the hero jacket it was not yet wested or Leather concessionaires yet, I believe that was after or around LC.

Ok, but you know what I mean.

If I well remember Tony said that there was a Leather concessionaires label (or writing) somewhere in the jacket he had. So may be it was just an old "Wested/Leath.c.", as is very similar to the David Hack jacket.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.
Although we've been told that the Leather Concessionaries jacket was discounted in favour of the "Hero" jacket it definitely looks like slydini's #001 jacket is the result of measurements / details taken from something that is VERY similar to the David Hack jacket.

Chris

Indiana Strones wrote:If I well remember Tony said that there was a Leather concessionaires label (or writing) somewhere in the jacket he had. So may be it was just an old "Wested/Leath.c.", as is very similar to the David Hack jacket.

Oh-boy

It's that time again when everybody is in two or more camps based on pictures of one jacket without all the necesarry information from the vendor to actualy do so......

Allthough all the information on this thread is from people I have high regards for, it is only hearsay: no information on what jacket was copied has come diectly from Tony himself. I don't blame him for not comming on this board now while he's busy and we have this huge discussion going on though: I would not be eager to jump into this myself if I were in his spot.

I would love to hear the true story behind this jacket and would love to see more pictures (of other jackets than 001 I mean) so I can form my opinion based on all evidence.

Regards, Geert

Thank you, Geert!

gwyddion wrote:Allthough all the information on this thread is from people I have high regards for, it is only hearsay: no information on what jacket was copied has come diectly from Tony himself. I don't blame him for not comming on this board now while he's busy and we have this huge discussion going on though: I would not be eager to jump into this myself if I were in his spot.

I would love to hear the true story behind this jacket and would love to see more pictures (of other jackets than 001 I mean) so I can form my opinion based on all evidence.

Exactly. If I'm going to pay $1000 for an "exact copy but with improvements", here's what I'd like to hear from the vendor:

- exactly which screen used (at this point hero or not is moot) jackets were used as patterns, and where were they loaned from (why is this such a big secret? get real!)
- what improvements were made and why (e.g. no piping on pockets because....)
- comparison pics with original jackets for construction detail
- what hide/treatment is used

For the record, I don't want a jacket that replicates how a 28 year old jacket is now, I want a replica of what the jacket was like back then.

Having seen one screen used jacket, that has very clearly dried out and shrunk and is falling apart in the time since it was used on screen, I am sure I don't want it looking like that.

I personally feel like we're seeing the "beginning" of the TN Raiders jacket and I bet the last one he makes is better than the first one.

PS I am pretty sick of suggestions that some of our friendly group here are shills for Wested/Peter. He has a great product at a great price, and it and other jackets (USW, Todd's....etc.) are always going to be comparison points for a new entry in the marketplace, so get over it. We all want each vendor to make a better product.

PPS I am looking forward to getting a TN CS jacket when I can justify the cost