Club Obi Wan

makeitjones wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:13 am I'd bet they went with whatever the prop house had kicking round in 1980 that fit the pistol.

Elastic makes a world of difference to ease of use with a shoulder holster arm strap - whatever the lighting brown leather would still look pretty brown.

Oh, I agree that elastic is the clear choice for functionality. And it's entirely possible that they went with whatever fit the gun. It just seems odd to me in relation to the rest of the gear. Either way, I think it's clear from the photos that the leather on the bottom stretches further across his back. The small section on his right shoulder is debatable though, for sure. I will concede that definitely does not look as brown as the rest of the rig, but (as we all know) photos can be deceiving.

Regardless, I'm very impressed by your ability to create such a close match based on a few screengrabs.

Remember they shot ROLA fast and loose. I doubt there was a whole lot of thought that went into the shoulder holster. It obviously wasn’t a key piece of the costume since this is the first we’re seeing it in 40 years.

Elastic may not have been common to use in the 30’s, but in the 80’s the viewing audience wouldn’t have seen it as out of place.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jeff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:42 am Remember they shot ROLA fast and loose. I doubt there was a whole lot of thought that went into the shoulder holster. It obviously wasn’t a key piece of the costume since this is the first we’re seeing it in 40 years.

Elastic may not have been common to use in the 30’s, but in the 80’s the viewing audience wouldn’t have seen it as out of place.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Yes, considering the well-documented facts regarding the production it's entirely plausible. I'm not as quick to agree that an elastic strap wouldn't stand out to a keen eye in the 80's, but my hesitation could just be me personally struggling to reconcile visible elastic on a piece of Indy gear. They may not have intended for the full rig to be seen in the finished film, and that's probably the best argument for elastic beyond the obvious functionality. If somehow the materials are confirmed or the holster identified down the line, I will happily eat my words.

I don’t doubt that there would have been audience members who would see the elastic and think it was wrong for the time period.

I see it similar to Belloq’s comment about a $10 watch being worthless. In 1981 $10 would sound right for a cheap watch, but in 1936 $10 would have been a lot of money. Sometimes being period accurate has to give way to what will keep the audience in the scene.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

What's the betting it's in full plain sight in another film from the same era the prop house supplied!!

I've been making custom holsters and shoulder holsters for the past 10 years (and replicating film designs from screencaps and stills) so the prototype is a mix of that experience with a big dash of 'how would I make something that looks like what we can see'.

It's all best guess starting point at this stage to see how it looks but if there's more detail uncovered (fingers crossed) I'll happily try and match whatever we find.

It's increasingly obvious to me that they never intended for us to see the holster at all, in which case it really doesn't matter whether it was period accurate or not. So I do understand the argument for using elastic and it's completely logical. As I mentioned, this was my knee-jerk reaction upon seeing the prototype. I did not intend to challenge any expertise. Just thought I'd offer my interpretation of the only evidence we have at this point. Like I said, I think you're on the right track and I'll be on the list of prospective customers once the finished product becomes available.

No offence taken - just confirming it's a 'straw man' prototype to get the collective pondering!

I was able to get my 4k graphics rig setup to try and get better screen grabs of this scene.
The one thing that stands out is the connection of the straps on the back, there is definitely a buckle hooking up to something, maybe a O ring where the left side attaches.
What is seen hanging down the center is almost certainly extra strap thru the buckle.

And agreed, since this was probably never meant to be seen, grabbing what they had on hand makes sense.
Who knows... But hey, that's why we're here!

LOL! I KNEW it wouldn't take too long for us Gearheads to start "geeking out" on this discovery!

Here's a list of US holster & equipment makers circa 1983 - some possibles to look into:

Considering the scene was shot at Elstree Studios in England, wouldn’t it be more likely they may have grabbed something stock of British origin?
In which case, maybe not elastic, but webbing over right shoulder?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is excellent, a new piece of gear from Raiders. Christmas came early, this kind of thing almost never happens.

Too bad the holster over shirt combo doesn’t appear in the film. I really like it, and there’s the reason the coat is zipped up. I just assumed it was because it was snowing outside. Explains why he’s packing two sidearms but no bag too. Cool.

I can’t speak to historical accuracy of elastic straps but it would seem there is always an effort by these moviemakers to make things look right. In this instance my brain expects to see leather and maybe some cloth. I wouldn’t want white elastic on a replica unless that’s what was really used. The reference is not sharp enough to know, I’m still squinting. Just like Han Solo’s blaster, what other films is this holster in?

Now there is something new to look for which is fun. Surely this is a found item. Or not? What’s more is we all get an education on holsters.

Solo's Mauser crops up in Sitting Target (1972) so hopefully the shoulder holster has some screen time somewhere else too.

I don't have a list of UK makers to hand but if it is UK made then more likely to be ex Army or Police stock which sometimes use leather and elastic combo on arm straps:
I guess statistically there's a lot more US made shoulder holsters out there.

Digging through my archive did find some evidence elastic has been around for a while for shoulder straps (guessing from the prices this is quite old!): Also found an old example with middle elastic section (quite short) on the arm strap so the combo is not outside bounds of possibility: To be fair the white elastic (more a cream colour really) doesn't look too bright when worn:

Indiana Jon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:35 am It's increasingly obvious to me that they never intended for us to see the holster at all, in which case it really doesn't matter whether it was period accurate or not. So I do understand the argument for using elastic and it's completely logical. As I mentioned, this was my knee-jerk reaction upon seeing the prototype. I did not intend to challenge any expertise. Just thought I'd offer my interpretation of the only evidence we have at this point. Like I said, I think you're on the right track and I'll be on the list of prospective customers once the finished product becomes available.

We know that well enough, simply because it's been 40 years and not a single ONE of us even thought to look...They covered it so well. So the "intent" is very clear. He needs a gun, but no one needs to care/know about where it comes from.

That said, I agree that they probably went with a holster they had from the movies of the time, 70's on up to the 80's so there's an entirely fair call to be made that it was leather all over....That said, my choice is still on the elastic, simply because they KNEW it wouldn't be seen, never intended that, had to have Ford FIGHT IN it, and figured comfort made more sense than period-accuracy...I suspect it'll be the elastic...

Buuuuut, more to the point, beyond these few seconds? I don't think we'll ever get any more details about it...Think about it? It's been lost for forty years, no one cared, or noticed, or tried to show it, and we had to guess about where the gun comes from....Because we had NOTHING to work with...So this? I suspect will be ALL we get...

And it ain't much....

Still, my call is on comfort, I suspect they went for ease of motion and comfort, over accuracy.

The revelation of this second holster reminds me of a reference made in The Complete Making Of book that the original plan for Indy was for him to use a variety of guns. If this was the original intent it makes sense for a shoulder holster and an automatic to complement the revolver in the flap holster.

Odd that filming began in France with the Bantu Wind and Indy is without his jacket, has the Browning, but doesn’t strap on the holster.

Then they moved to England where he was fitted for the holster for the Raven scene.

At some point before/when they got to Tunisia the idea of Indy carrying two guns was dropped since he spends all of the Cairo sequence jacketless and with only the revolver.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

In regards to the era accuracy, I discovered these holsters from the the 1930s-40s, that companies like "Brauer" were making spring clip holsters, which seems to add up to the shape seen here.

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/f-s-t ... r.1673045/

Notice the warping of the barrel section of the holster implies there's tension towards the frame. I set out to recreate this, and sure enough it works. I'll post pictures once the whole rig is complete (end of this week I believe).


EDIT: POSSIBLE HOLSTER FOUND!!!

Upon further research, I think I may have found the money maker. It has all the qualities mentioned above (aside from the non-bunny style anchors). The 1903 Browning is a similar size to the HiPower. I will now make a prototype on this and report my findings.

https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums ... ters-only/

Whoa, that looks quite the same. Great find, baddates1!

I'm not sure that's THE ONE, but it's a close enough design to copy and change a touch, and it has a history that at least, runs with what we know of Indiana Jones and the direction they wanted him to go in? So it's a logical base! That, with the pictures? Should be enough to get as close as we possibly can, given the lack of data...

I wonder if they started the shoulder holster look, thinking to link more directly to the original picture they had of Indiana Jones by Steranko, and using the more "military" look of that, before backing off somewhat and making Indy a little less overt? The holster and secondary weapon seem to be a little more "militant" than we've seen Indy be before....It's interesting to see...

Some great research and finds here. Well done, all. I love the expertise at COW!

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

makeitjones wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 7:41 pm I don't have a list of UK makers to hand but if it is UK made then more likely to be ex Army or Police stock which sometimes use leather and elastic combo on arm straps:

Digging through my archive did find some evidence elastic has been around for a while for shoulder straps (guessing from the prices this is quite old!):

Yes, elastic was definitely used on some holsters in the 30’s and 40’s. But it does get more and more scarce the further back the research goes. My point was less about how common they were and more about whether or not it fit with the character’s overall design. Indy’s gear leans more towards military than law enforcement, and I haven’t seen many examples of elastic used for military holsters in that era. Like I said, I would believe cotton webbing or canvas. Elastic just doesn’t jive for me personally. Your examples do indeed seem to be a close match, so it’s entirely possible. I’m not ruling it out, just offering a different point of view.

fifthchamber wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:24 pm That said, my choice is still on the elastic, simply because they KNEW it wouldn't be seen, never intended that, had to have Ford FIGHT IN it, and figured comfort made more sense than period-accuracy...I suspect it'll be the elastic...

I’m not sure how much comfort had to do with it. They could’ve easily removed the holster before filming the fist fight and no one would be the wiser. His jacket is already unzipped down to his navel when the fisticuffs begin, so it’s likely he’s not even wearing it when they filmed those shots.

Indiana Jeff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:30 pm The revelation of this second holster reminds me of a reference made in The Complete Making Of book that the original plan for Indy was for him to use a variety of guns. If this was the original intent it makes sense for a shoulder holster and an automatic to complement the revolver in the flap holster.

Odd that filming began in France with the Bantu Wind and Indy is without his jacket, has the Browning, but doesn’t strap on the holster.

Then they moved to England where he was fitted for the holster for the Raven scene.

At some point before/when they got to Tunisia the idea of Indy carrying two guns was dropped since he spends all of the Cairo sequence jacketless and with only the revolver.

That’s an excellent point, Jeff. I had forgotten about that bit in The Making Of (it’s been a while). Now you’ve got me wondering if they did intend for it to appear in the film originally but scrapped the idea at some point during the shoot. We may never know.

baddates1 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:21 pm Upon further research, I think I may have found the money maker. It has all the qualities mentioned above (aside from the non-bunny style anchors). The 1903 Browning is a similar size to the HiPower. I will now make a prototype on this and report my findings.

https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums ... ters-only/

Nice! Your second link may be the closest match yet. Both you and makeitjones certainly seem to be on the right track. Keep it up! Looking forward to seeing your prototype.

Man, I am loving the excitement over this! Ive been poking around a few vintage holsters, but I am wondering if they mated two holster rigs together to get the kinda unique features

Indiana Jon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:25 amIndy’s gear leans more towards military than law enforcement, and I haven’t seen many examples of elastic used for military holsters in that era.

Indy's look is military-esque, but every piece is custom. The production could have gone with straight military surplus, but every piece harkens back, but isn't actually military issue: pleated trousers, shirt design, jacket without knits, adding a leather strap to the MKVII, etc. I think it makes sense for the production to use a law enforcement holster that met the needs of filming (ease of getting - either from a local provider or prop department stocks), fit/function for the Raven sequence, and looks good enough.

I agree the screencaps look like the strap over the right arm is darkened, but it could be white elastic that either darkened with age (an older found holster) or was darkened by the production (newly made) to blend more into the shirt color and/or look more like leather while being more comfortable to wear.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jeff wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:10 am
Indy's look is military-esque, but every piece is custom. The production could have gone with straight military surplus, but every piece harkens back, but isn't actually military issue: pleated trousers, shirt design, jacket without knits, adding a leather strap to the MKVII, etc. I think it makes sense for the production to use a law enforcement holster that met the needs of filming (ease of getting - either from a local provider or prop department stocks), fit/function for the Raven sequence, and looks good enough.

True. I know none of the gear was standard issue and nearly every piece was customized. And you're right, they may have just grabbed whatever suited their needs without putting much thought into how it meshed with the rest of the gear. Who knows, maybe it did stand out and that's why they ditched the idea altogether. As I've said a few times now, this is just me thinking out loud and trying to reconcile elastic on a piece of Indy gear.

Look, this isn't a hill I'm willing to die on. Better minds than mine are on the case. But right now we're all working off the same meager evidence, and baddates' webbed strap examples simply make more sense to me. If nothing else is ever confirmed and elastic is the general consensus or ends up being the more practical material to work with, I'll roll with it. Until then, it's a hard pill for me to swallow. This is a newly discovered piece of gear and very little to go on. Nobody knows what this thing is yet. There's bound to be some (respectful) difference of opinion until more details are worked out.

Bear in mind just about everything the prop department grabbed pre-production was at a military surplus store in London. They didn’t spend much time creating anything ‘special’. It’s probably just a dirty military surplus shoulder holster from the 60’s or 70’s.

In later films they customized, but Raiders was a ‘grab and go’ film. That’s why they kept little to no records.

Decisions were being made on the fly. Eg: he was supposed to have a Colt .45 backup. They had more 9mm blanks on hand at the London set. Viola! A Browning Hi-Power was procured from the prop department and they kept rolling.

For all we know, that holster was probably WITH THE Hi-Power when they grabbed it.

Run and gun production…..if you’ll pardon the pun.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:53 am Bear in mind just about everything the prop department grabbed pre-production was at a military surplus store in London. They didn’t spend much time creating anything ‘special’. It’s probably just a dirty military surplus shoulder holster from the 60’s or 70’s.

In later films they customized, but Raiders was a ‘grab and go’ film. That’s why they kept little to no records.

Decisions were being made on the fly. Eg: he was supposed to have a Colt .45 backup. They had more 9mm blanks on hand at the London set. Viola! A Browning Hi-Power was procured from the prop department and they kept rolling.

For all we know, that holster was probably WITH THE Hi-Power when they grabbed it.

Run and gun production…..if you’ll pardon the pun.

Regards! Michaelson

All excellent points (and puns ). But that very sound reasoning doesn't necessarily support the presence of one material over the other. All it suggests is that it could have just as easily been either one. Until it's identified, we may never know what material is on his right shoulder. Elastic is just as likely as canvas or cotton webbing. It's only in the context of replicating the piece based solely on this evidence that I struggle with the choice of elastic. But at the same time, I completely understand the choice as it is the more practical option.

Totally agree. Just tossing that observation on the pile for consideration.

Regards! M

This was the point I tried to make earlier, but everyone seems to want to add this layer of mystery & misdirection for a production that has always been known as b-movie fly by the seat of your pants thing. Especially knowing the filming schedule...
I really think folks reading way too much into some of this stuff.

Now, get the prop house inventory Elstree was using, NOW you might get somewhere
(Honestly, do we really want ot know WHERE he hid that gun? )

oh well...

Dalexs

Michaelson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:53 am Bear in mind just about everything the prop department grabbed pre-production was at a military surplus store in London. They didn’t spend much time creating anything ‘special’. It’s probably just a dirty military surplus shoulder holster from the 60’s or 70’s.

In later films they customized, but Raiders was a ‘grab and go’ film. That’s why they kept little to no records.

Decisions were being made on the fly. Eg: he was supposed to have a Colt .45 backup. They had more 9mm blanks on hand at the London set. Viola! A Browning Hi-Power was procured from the prop department and they kept rolling.

For all we know, that holster was probably WITH THE Hi-Power when they grabbed it.

Run and gun production…..if you’ll pardon the pun.

Regards! Michaelson

I suppose one of the good things about the lack of fine detail is that it brings lots of holster options into the (probably) 'close enough' category and then it's down to personal preference on holster set-up.

When I was thinking about how to try and match the prototype to the images I figured if the arm strap was cotton webbing like the older WW2 style then all of it would be cotton webbing which would have the same colour across all the strap and would be the same colour on both sides.

If it was a brown chrome tan leather you can have a lighter colour back to some hides and it's easy for the arm strap to get twisted round - but the overhang at the bottom of the strap shows the back as brown too.

Elasticated webbing dates back to 1908 so 'period possible' since then.

A full elasticated arm strap has a definite shelf life as once the rubber starts to perish in one part it gets less and less effective. A small elasticated section between leather either end gives a nice bit of flex for arm movement in action and easier to put on and take off. If it is that then likely a 1970s piece rather than vintage.

I've got a few holster reference books but they're often quite light on shoulder holster history / evolution - someone needs to produce a definitive guide!

makeitjones wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:13 am I'd bet they went with whatever the prop house had kicking round in 1980 that fit the pistol.

Elastic makes a world of difference to ease of use with a shoulder holster arm strap - whatever the lighting brown leather would still look pretty brown.

I can agree to that! I made myself some all leather suspenders and when I sat down, I gave myself the worst wedgie…yooooowwww.
I immediately added some elastic to the lower back section.

makeitjones wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:18 pm I suppose one of the good things about the lack of fine detail is that it brings lots of holster options into the (probably) 'close enough' category and then it's down to personal preference on holster set-up.

So, when will these holsters be available for sale?

I've taken a small batch of pre-production orders this week that'll take me up to the start of the New Year so early January 2024 I guess.

Just finished the Type 2 prototype tonight - bought a vintage military / police dog-ear shoulder holster found online that looked pretty close to what I was looking for in this style. Has the same top lobe shape on the shoulder section as we see in the footage and a small elasticated section on the webbing arm strap. Stripped that down, made some tweaks to the ear curve shapes and 6 templates later had one was happy with. Have re-jigged the arm strap to include a much smaller section of elasticated webbing (which is different to elastic): I like modular set-ups for shoulder holsters so the same shoulder rig section will fit both the type 1 & 2 holsters. The arm strap is also removable so can be replaced later if more detail comes to light and I haven't got it right. Did this one in a lighter brown as the 4K screenshots from Dalex looked lighter than the regular shots - each type will be available in either colour (or from any of the range of brown dye shades I have).

Holster fits both regular & target sight versions of the Browning Hi-Power along with the Colt 1911 M1A1, Browning 1903, Tokarev TT30 & TT33 and Beretta M1951.

Also found another two 'it's been there all along' screenshots:

makeitjones wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:41 pm

Also found another two 'it's been there all along' screenshots:
whisky.png
tie down.png

This is wild! I remember seeing these shots nearly fifteen years ago when I first got into the films and wondering what the strap was in the second picture. I had a crappy quality dvd at the time I was watching on a tiny television so high-def scrutiny was impossible and I just brushed it off - in my defense I was also about fourteen at the time

It's also fascinating that Ford was evidently wearing the holster for more than just the shot where he produced the Browning. I wonder if he had it on the whole scene - if he kept it on for that much of the hand-to-hand brawling, I'd say it's probably safe to assume he had it on for the entire sequence.

And here's a quick side-by-side of the two prototypes:

Oh, very nice! I like the yoke version best.

This discussion about the holster got me thinking about all the conversations through the years about Indy's Browning in the Raven.

One discussion from 2003 where a shoulder holster was suggested.
viewtopic.php?t=4393&hilit=browning

And another from 2009.
viewtopic.php?t=37045&hilit=complete+book

Fun to read these old discussions when we now know Indy was wearing a holster and where it peaks out in the Raven fight.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

I think the yoke version is the closest to what we can see so far! And very good pull on the right shoulder strap too! Makes that a little clearer too! Excellent find!

I suspect, given the lack of evidence we have, that this will be all, but we DO keep on finding more pop up moments, and I love that....Excellent work David!

I think I'm leaning towards the Yoke version too - but this was a good excuse to finally get a dog-ear design worked out.

Here's the type 2 in 'action':

I went frame by frame and noticed that whisky shot too, but I couldn't be sure that's what we were seeing there. That makes me wonder if he was wearing it a few shots later when we see the jacket unzipped down farther. The holster does cling pretty tightly to his body, so maybe it's just out of sight.

Nice work on the updates. I agree the yoke seems to be the preferable option. I've never worn a dog ear type holster. Is it just as quick a draw as the yoke? It seems like there's more leather to get around on the draw, but like I said I have no frame of reference. Just curious.

I agree the yoke seems easier to draw than the dog ear, though no shoulder holster is meant to be a quick draw option.

And staying in universe, Indy carried his revolver in a flap holster, the slowest draw option out there, so I don't think that quick draw was a factor in his decision making.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Oh, for sure. I wasn't challenging the use of it. Just satisfying my own curiosity regarding the draw.

Indiana Jon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:53 am Oh, for sure. I wasn't challenging the use of it. Just satisfying my own curiosity regarding the draw.

I am also curious about this. Seems like the dog ear version will put a head-lock on the handgun.

The attached is an extract from Blue Steel and gunleather by John Bianchi which explains the diagonal straps on the dog ear stabilise holster movement against the body and you can definitely feel that when worn.

Having tried drawing a pistol from both prototypes surprisingly there's not much difference in speed / ease of draw between them and the outer dog ear doesn't impede draw (which I thought it might too).

Dalex very kindly sent me some 4K screen shots of the bar counter struggle - what I took to be a dark brown strap in that is probably shadow of the collar and looks like a grey strap with a slightly rolled edge to the left of it.

Interesting. Thanks for the informative reply.

Yeah I spotted that rolled edge when you posted the screengrab last night. I didn't catch that when I caught it the first time. At the very least, that solves the color difference question. We're gettin' closer!

One more question; I noticed that the tie-down splits from the holster into two different directions as it heads towards your waistline. It doesn't appear to do that on Ford's, although the image is obviously not crystal clear. Are we no longer assuming that the web belt is looped through the tie-down or that it's tied to a belt loop? Did I miss a development or am I misinterpreting the photos? Educate me on the proper configuration of the tie-down.

Indiana Jon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:52 pm
One more question; I noticed that the tie-down splits from the holster into two different directions as it heads towards your waistline. It doesn't appear to do that on Ford's, although the image is obviously not crystal clear. Are we no longer assuming that the web belt is looped through the tie-down or that it's tied to a belt loop? Did I miss a development or am I misinterpreting the photos? Educate me on the proper configuration of the tie-down.

Just the way it's sitting on my belt when pulled it tight - wasn't paying it much attention when put it on TBH.

Simple enough explanation.

That’s interesting about the dog ear. It seems like it would be harder to draw so good to read it’s not. The additional explanation that the dog ear helps stabilize the holster makes sense looking at it now.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Here's a picture of General Patton wearing an old style shoulder holster showing what was available during the 1940's.



Here's a picture of a shoulder holster that is similar to what Indy is wearing.

If we look closely in certain lighting, we do see what appears to be a groove, or what's probably a stitch-line below the top of the holster. This is what led me to believe it has the spring break in it, and as The Man in the Hat just posted, was a WWII item.

I find it interesting on his holster it's not elastic, but a lighter brown leather. Honestly could probably make both versions and they'd be just as accurate until there's more revealed footage in the future...

My guess is that the holster used in the movie had a leather strap and not elastic because I think it would've been unlikely that the elastic was brown. It appears that the most common elastic on these types of shoulder holsters was white.