Club Obi Wan

Canyon wrote:This is an awesome find!

Just something I was thinking about. The picture you posted is from a cut scene from the Blu ray Raiders documentary and I noticed that in that cut scene the jacket seems to look a lot shinier that it does in the movie. My thought is that Harrison was wearing a different jacket in that scene and therefore could it mean that both styles of buckles were used?

So, any thoughts on this?

Is there a seller that makes screen accurate buckles that you can buy individually?

Canyon wrote:

Canyon wrote:This is an awesome find!

Just something I was thinking about. The picture you posted is from a cut scene from the Blu ray Raiders documentary and I noticed that in that cut scene the jacket seems to look a lot shinier that it does in the movie. My thought is that Harrison was wearing a different jacket in that scene and therefore could it mean that both styles of buckles were used?

So, any thoughts on this?

I can only speak of what I know to be a fact...

There is NO evidence to suggest that any of the remaining jackets in the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art have cotton lining or buckles that don’t fall into two categories, vintage 2 pronged trouser buckles or d rings. To suggest anything else is a deviation from the evidence that the remaining jackets present.

Indiego Jones wrote

Andy,
I think I understand why you think this is a TOD jacket.
Besides the 2-prong buckle, perhaps you are referring to the back panel side stitching seams
I can confirm that the RAIDERS back panel side stitching seams are 1/2 foot wide (instead of 1 foot wide)

The two things I refer to are:

a) the stitching distance from the edge, as far as we knew so far and from the TN pattern, the entire Raiders jacket is constructed using mainly the 1/4 inch distance stitching from edge, except the pockets, collar, storm flap and side straps see below



and b) the way the strap is attached to the back panel, which resembles the TOD configuration as opposed to the Raiders square with K stitch that we are all used to.



and



On the other hand the TOD and LC jackets use the 1/8 inch distance from edge and please see here:



and



and now again the picture for comparison to the Raiders jacket.








Now the buckle we use at BK is a 1 inch mil spec buckle that has the middle bar lowered, like this:



and the reason we used it is because this is how it looks when done in comparison with the TOD buckle:



and in all the known screen caps we could find we saw the top rather than the bottom fixing of the strap. For example





Furthermore, the buckle we used is a US WWII original buckle (still in production today) and thought it quite possible that the costume department could had found it from US Army field equipment.

On the other hand the SOLIDE buckle is used in some German uniform trousers and it is also possible that they could find it.

In conclusion, now that the back of the Truck jacket has appeared we see that the back is stitched at the 1/8 inch distance, (notice also that this applies to the sides only while the bottom uses the 1/4, which got to admit is unusual technique) which means that the photo showing the BRITISH buckle could indeed be showing a Raiders jacket.

During the previous days before the Truck jacket appeared we were trying to find screen grabs showing the back of the jacket trying to see the stitching detail. The most notable photo is the below.



However, there is still this photo



in which it seems that the back sides are done with the 1/4 distance from edge stitch. Unfortunately the photo is not very clear to be able to say for sure. Anyone can remind me from which scene is this taken?

The end result could mean either that TN had the back stitching wrong, as he did e.g. with the construction of the side straps (and maybe a few other things) or, that the Hawaii jacket that TN examined had these details made differently.

That above shot is a crop of a screen grab I made from the BluRay behind the scenes footage. It was a deleted scene in which Indy is reaching down to pull Satipo out of a pit inside the Peruvian temple before finding the idol. This scene would have been filmed at Elstree and Ford is likely wearing what we call the main Hero jacket, but I can't be sure.

Both Mark and Brandon have literally been inside the archive and seen these jackets in person. Brandon owns one! Much of their professional work is based on Lucasfilm properties. All parties have confirmed that the two prong trouser buckles were used on these jackets. As to the jacket Tony saw, or any changes he may have made, I can't even begin to speculate, but I have no reason not to believe that Tony did handle a screen-used Raiders jacket and created patterns based on it. I remember at the time, Tony was under strict instructions not to photograph the jacket or reveal its owner.

Yeah we don't have any more doubts about the buckle used.
And now we know the answer why the strap is not so bulgy around the buckle.

I took a screenshot from the Blu-ray as well. Click link for full size version.



From this deleted scene:

Very useful thanks.
Looks like it's the main hero jacket.

The Solide buckles are from British mens trousers. Not sure if they were incorporated for military use, but they were primarily used on basic mens wear of the period.

afalzon wrote:Yeah we don't have any more doubts about the buckle used.
And now we know the answer why the strap is not so bulgy around the buckle.

So?.....which one is the correct for you?

Indiego Jones wrote

So?.....which one is the correct for you?

You said that the "Bantu Wind" has no buckles, that the "Jock Plane" jacket has the BRITISH type and that the Truck jacket has the BRITISH type.

Mark said that the Raiders jackets have the SOLIDE buckles.

Stefan said it's the vintage two prong trouser waist tab adjusters and showed photo of BRITISH but didn't clarify if also SOLIDE is used.

Brandon didn't say anything.

Basis above we will have to go with BRITISH. We will use SOLIDE on the TOD jackets and BRITISH on the Raiders jackets.

My original post clearly states that one should stop focusing on the country of origin stamp on the buckle and focus on the style of buckle. Instead an attempt was made trying to make the case that SOLIDE was only stamped on Temple jackets and BRITISH stamped on buckles on Raider’s jackets.

The original style of buckle is hard to find but not impossible. A casting can be made of this style of buckle and it can be replicated in mass quantities. But that requires work and money. It’s more convenient to blame me for my lack of apparent specificity than to admit that wrong buckles were and have been used many vendors for years. Wonder how long it will take till the remaining manufacturers of Indy jackets admit that cotton lining is the wrong choice for jackets that claim to be screen accurate?. Finding a suitable substitute for the lining is less challenging and yet is met with the same level of skepticism. If these changes are not going to be accepted as universal truth, that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion after all it’s their jacket. But we also don’t have to tolerate fiction for fact for whatever the agenda may be for vendors choices in the creation of their products. As the saying goes, Buyer beware and so more information results in a more informed decision. Let’s face it, these jackets are not cheap and we work to hard for our money to buy them.

I guess it’s my fault for not presenting my information in a more digestible format, it’s Tony’s fault for his interpretation of a jacket he replicated, it’s Brandon’s fault not speaking up sooner, and it’s Steele & Jones’s fault for adapting the most recent information which was publicly posted for all to see into their current jackets and the willingness to accept that an article of movie history still holds a few more mysteries.

Ego is the enemy that prevents the best version of selves from shining through, time to move forward or continue to repeat the mistakes of the past. The choice ultimately is in the hands of those who have a platform to make these jackets for us the fan.

afalzon wrote: Basis above we will have to go with BRITISH. We will use SOLIDE on the TOD jackets and BRITISH on the Raiders jackets.

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask:

* You use SOLIDE buckles on TOD jackets. Are this vintage, or your own replica?

* The BRITISH ones you are putting on your Raiders jackets, are vintage or you are making replicas??

Thanks in advance.-

So, for those of us who want to retrofit a jacket with these vintage buckles, how on earth do we remove the old buckles and attach the new ones without unstitching the leather?! Has anyone successfully done it? I could get the old tri-glide buckles off with a hack saw, I suppose. Do these vintage buckles come apart, perhaps? I have some being shipped to me.

These buckles do have a split back, but that won't help you get the strap around the middle bar, which is solid. Opening up the buckle so you can pop out the middle pronged piece is possible, but you could end up damaging the buckle. I guess it depends how many you have to try it out on. If the temper of the metal is good, it should work.

Unstitching the strap is the safer option, but would potentially be the more difficult and time consuming job.

The only way is to undo the back straps, and re-stitch them.
Too difficult to do at home.
You need a leather workshop to do it for you.

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask:

* You use SOLIDE buckles on TOD jackets. Are this vintage, or your own replica?

* The BRITISH ones you are putting on your Raiders jackets, are vintage or you are making replicas??

Thanks in advance.-

I will send you email.

Stefan Hills wrote:

Canyon wrote:

Canyon wrote:This is an awesome find!

Just something I was thinking about. The picture you posted is from a cut scene from the Blu ray Raiders documentary and I noticed that in that cut scene the jacket seems to look a lot shinier that it does in the movie. My thought is that Harrison was wearing a different jacket in that scene and therefore could it mean that both styles of buckles were used?

So, any thoughts on this?

I can only speak of what I know to be a fact...

There is NO evidence to suggest that any of the remaining jackets in the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art have cotton lining or buckles that don’t fall into two categories, vintage 2 pronged trouser buckles or d rings. To suggest anything else is a deviation from the evidence that the remaining jackets present.

Thanks for your reply.

I ran into a problem with a U.S. Wings jacket along these lines. I bought it from them and within a week the side strap began to come off. At that time I had not yet studied leather working and didn’t know how to resew the straps as I do now. I wish I had because they didn’t care at all about the integrity of the jacket as I should have expected. I was blamed for the strap failure within a week of purchase because I may have pulled the straps too tight. I had never adjusted them, but even if I had and at the price I paid for the jacket they should have been fine. But they sought to make it right, so I sent it back to them but rather than simply re-stitch the strap, they moved it and punched all new holes in the leather. They will tell you that this does not weaken the leather; it does, though not always significantly. It just shows you they don’t care, in my opinion, and many vendors are like this because it takes time to use the same holes.

All that to say, if you want to, you can do this yourself but you will need a few things. Thread, obviously, I would recommend leatherworking needles as they have blunted tips, and you will need to learn how to do a stitch. Pull the arm closest to the strap inside out and open the stitch carefully mid-way. Now you’ll need to go in after you have carefully removed the stitching on the strap and re-sew it through the original holes. I promise you that if you send this out to any leather worker, they will not care about the integrity of your jacket and they will punch new holes in the leather. You’re going to want to do this on your own, if you do it.

Trenin wrote: All that to say, if you want to, you can do this yourself but you will need a few things. Thread, obviously, I would recommend leatherworking needles as they have blunted tips, and you will need to learn how to do a stitch. Pull the arm closest to the strap inside out and open the stitch carefully mid-way. Now you’ll need to go in after you have carefully removed the stitching on the strap and re-sew it through the original holes. I promise you that if you send this out to any leather worker, they will not care about the integrity of your jacket and they will punch new holes in the leather. You’re going to want to do this on your own, if you do it.

Thanks for the advice. Sounds good. I'll let you all know what I decide to do after the buckles arrive.

As to those screen caps xmasters posted above, wow those are much clearer than what I got! Yes, Canyon, that jacket seems like it is brand new. I'm pretty sure that is the Hero jacket used throughout most of the Elstree filming. It looks brand new and super thin in that scene. Really similar to Todd's first run of jackets. Those were crazy accurate, given the limited knowledge we had then. I really liked the strap hardware Todd was using on those; they were a thin black tri-glide that really looked the part.

Forrest,

Which buckles did you got?

Thanks.-

afalzon wrote:

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask:

* You use SOLIDE buckles on TOD jackets. Are this vintage, or your own replica?

* The BRITISH ones you are putting on your Raiders jackets, are vintage or you are making replicas??

Thanks in advance.-

I will send you email.

Looking foward to it.
Thanks.-

Indiego Jones wrote:Forrest,

Which buckles did you got?

Thanks.-

I got the Solide buckles. Ordered them from a dealer in the Czech Republic a few weeks ago.

Looking at the Raiders jacket and how "not bulky" the strap looks, it seems like using the TOD buckle as an example that the prongs should be more "under(?)" the strap? I tried to show what I meant in this image with the arrow. Almost feels like the prongs would sit against the underside of the strap to keep it in place, like how it works on cinch back jeans or vintage Levi's cinch back jackets.

Just in case anyone is interested, I have a significant amount of NOS SOLIDE buckles and a fair amount of the BRITISH buckles.

https://imgur.com/YSxRf6s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://imgur.com/4OlSG0L" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kyle

Looking at the Raiders jacket and how "not bulky" the strap looks, it seems like using the TOD buckle as an example that the prongs should be more "under(?)" the strap? I tried to show what I meant in this image with the arrow. Almost feels like the prongs would sit against the underside of the strap to keep it in place, like how it works on cinch back jeans or vintage Levi's cinch back jackets.

That's a good idea but I don't think that is how it was done. The answer is more simple actually.

I would think they more likely bent the prongs over once they punched through the back strap leather, maybe trying to make it more secure and allowing the side strap to lay flatter over the crossbar.

But TBH, total 100% screen accuracy is not my thing and I never liked the pronged buckles and they've actually dissuaded me from getting a TOD jacket -- mainly the tiny pockets, but the buckles don't help. That kind of detail in the hardware is a level of screen accuracy I'm personally not willing to go, but I understand why people want it. I'm just paranoid of the prongs shredding the strap leather over time; they were mainly designed for cloth, after all, and unlike the Raiders costume dept, we all plan on wearing these jackets for a long time.

I just hope that the regular tri-glide buckles will still be an available option on the Relic Hunters and Cazadoras for those of us who are more about durability and function than screen accuracy.

Visually, the two prong buckles are slightly thicker on the side where the country of origin is stamped on the buckle rather than the traditional buckles which are even on both sides.

afalzon wrote:

Looking at the Raiders jacket and how "not bulky" the strap looks, it seems like using the TOD buckle as an example that the prongs should be more "under(?)" the strap? I tried to show what I meant in this image with the arrow. Almost feels like the prongs would sit against the underside of the strap to keep it in place, like how it works on cinch back jeans or vintage Levi's cinch back jackets.

That's a good idea but I don't think that is how it was done. The answer is more simple actually.

They're installed upside down, I suppose...

We have come along way...there was a time when this side strap configuration and buckles was deemed accurate...

Got my buckles today. I popped out the middle bar no problem. Just some needle nose pliers and elbow grease. Will take the hack saw to the wide tri-glide on my Kelso tomorrow. Excited!

Thanks for all the research, Stefan!

Forrest For the Trees wrote:Got my buckles today. I popped out the middle bar no problem. Just some needle nose pliers and elbow grease. Will take the hack saw to the wide tri-glide on my Kelso tomorrow. Excited!

Thanks for all the research, Stefan!

Happy to help...make sure to post a before and after image of the transplant haha.

Done and done!

Not for the faint of heart, in that taking a hacksaw to your jacket feels pretty insane, but the payoff was well worth it. These Solide buckles are a tight fit, but that gives them such a slim look.

As far as getting the strap to have a low profile as it fits through the buckle, you just put the buckle on reversed, so the prongs face away from the loop of the strap attachment. Pretty simple.

So I’ll tell you what I did for my steele & jones 35 (temple) jacket. I filed down the prongs and essentially “rounded” them off. I don’t adjust the straps at all so I took some leather glue and punched out two small circles of leather which I glued where the prongs intersect the leather of the strap. The prongs are not going to punch through. The glue that I used is weak enough that it won’t damage the surface of the leather and I could peel off the circles if I needed to move them to a more preferred position.

I’m with some of the other respondents on here in terms of screen accuracy. I like it in terms of design, but not in terms of material. My cazadora 35 is the thin horsehide not lambskin specifically because I wanted something more durable that would last, which is why it absolutely baffles me that Steele & Jones choose to use the absolute cheapest lining material imaginable. They told me this was due to screen accuracy because the actual jackets had a cheap lining, but for me that’s a heaping helping of “who cares” if the film lining was flimsy and low quality. Get something that looks comparable but is of a decent durability: the same concept that is addressed when offering the jacket in other leathers besides lambskin. Now I’ve got holes in the lining of two jackets from them, but they are “screen accurate” for the .0000005% of the population who will look at the jacket, examine the lining, and become impressed.

I'm with you on the screen accuracy vs. real world functionality. I think the SA materials should be available to those who want them, but other options should be available as well. I really like my Kelso jacket because it is super functional. I hated those triglides, though, so I switched them out. And those two prong teeth on the Solide buckles, you really can just turn the buckle around before installing it and the teeth have no impact on the leather or fit. I would never choose the poly-satin lining, though, because I personally can't stand it. Also, I would much rather have the cargo pockets lined than have the back of the leather left raw and exposed. But if someone is going after an exact replica, I get it.

Tony Nowak made improvements on the Raiders jacket he offered. You had to request "warts and all" if you wanted an identical copy.

Trenin wrote:So I’ll tell you what I did for my steele & jones 35 (temple) jacket. I filed down the prongs and essentially “rounded” them off. I don’t adjust the straps at all so I took some leather glue and punched out two small circles of leather which I glued where the prongs intersect the leather of the strap. The prongs are not going to punch through. The glue that I used is weak enough that it won’t damage the surface of the leather and I could peel off the circles if I needed to move them to a more preferred position.

I’m with some of the other respondents on here in terms of screen accuracy. I like it in terms of design, but not in terms of material. My cazadora 35 is the thin horsehide not lambskin specifically because I wanted something more durable that would last, which is why it absolutely baffles me that Steele & Jones choose to use the absolute cheapest lining material imaginable. They told me this was due to screen accuracy because the actual jackets had a cheap lining, but for me that’s a heaping helping of “who cares” if the film lining was flimsy and low quality. Get something that looks comparable but is of a decent durability: the same concept that is addressed when offering the jacket in other leathers besides lambskin. Now I’ve got holes in the lining of two jackets from them, but they are “screen accurate” for the .0000005% of the population who will look at the jacket, examine the lining, and become impressed.

I hear you but for some (maybe a cosplay thing) Screen Accurate is Screen Accurate, no matter how poor the jacket quality. And yes, even the choice of lamb (a weaker, easier to stitch and cut film, hide for actors dealing with warm conditions) was cheap and easy. A real 1930's Indy jacket would morel likely have been a 2.5oz horsehide half-belt such as Sears used to sell.

The G&B has a virtual SA poly lining that is almost indestructible so you can get that affordable shiny look but have it there to last. Nothing more annoying than a good leather jacket with a shredded lining.

Well done Forrest!
Great work!

afalzon wrote:

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask:

* You use SOLIDE buckles on TOD jackets. Are this vintage, or your own replica?

* The BRITISH ones you are putting on your Raiders jackets, are vintage or you are making replicas??

Thanks in advance.-

I will send you email.

Forgot to give you my email:

pedidos@steele-jones.com.ar


Perhaps you can share with us where you get the SOLIDE buckles done.
We are looking some buckles for the re-launching of our ToD jacket.

Thanks in advance.-

Indiego Jones wrote:Well done Forrest!
Great work!

Thanks, Indiego! I was thrilled when the center bar popped out as easily as it did. I’m really happy with the result.

Trenin wrote:Now I’ve got holes in the lining....

We'd love to help you with re-lining.
Please, send us an email, and we will work this out together.

Best.-

Does anyone know where I can get some screen accurate black buckles for the straps? Planning on replacing the one's in my wested.

Thank you in advance!

Forrest For the Trees wrote:Done and done!

Not for the faint of heart, in that taking a hacksaw to your jacket feels pretty insane, but the payoff was well worth it. These Solide buckles are a tight fit, but that gives them such a slim look.

As far as getting the strap to have a low profile as it fits through the buckle, you just put the buckle on reversed, so the prongs face away from the loop of the strap attachment. Pretty simple.

Care to show us the side profile of the buckles to see exactly how you "turned them around"?

Does this help?

Forrest For the Trees wrote:Does this help?

Sort of.

Are the prongs this part in red pointing down?

knibs7 wrote:Just in case anyone is interested, I have a significant amount of NOS SOLIDE buckles and a fair amount of the BRITISH buckles.

https://imgur.com/YSxRf6s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://imgur.com/4OlSG0L" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kyle

PM Sent Kyle, but your inbox must be full or something.

Sort of.

Are the prongs this part in red pointing down?

Yes. The point being, that the claw is not pointing towards or poking through the loop of the leather, but instead facing the other way.

Forrest For the Trees wrote:

Sort of.

Are the prongs this part in red pointing down?

Yes. The point being, that the claw is not pointing towards or poking through the loop of the leather, but instead facing the other way.

Is there any worry that the prongs can then poke into the actual jacket somehow or are they well protected by the loop of the strap holding it (not the strap that goes through it to connect the two sides)?

marker2037 wrote:

Forrest For the Trees wrote:

Sort of.

Are the prongs this part in red pointing down?

Yes. The point being, that the claw is not pointing towards or poking through the loop of the leather, but instead facing the other way.

Is there any worry that the prongs can then poke into the actual jacket somehow or are they well protected by the loop of the strap holding it (not the strap that goes through it to connect the two sides)?

No. There is no way they will poke through the leather of the strap loop on their own.

So it seems like there's no way to get my straps to point backwards on my jacket (that's accurate, right?) without using a three prong buckle? The simple rectangular buckles / sliders from Strapworks for instance are functionally the same as a D-Ring in the way you thread the strap through.

Though, even looking at LC screenshots, it's hard to tell which way his straps face. Why does Wested sell these things with D-Rings anyway?

LC used D-Rings, but evidently the two pronged trouser buckles were used on both Raiders and Temple jackets.

Finally installed my Solide buckles. They look great. Happy to add more accuracy to my Kelso.