Club Obi Wan

Indiego Jones wrote:IMO, it isn't ok to take apart a jacket.

On the Penman website, John says that he took apart hats to see how they were constructed.

I do not see anything inherently wrong with this. It was part of how he learned his craft, and no one would argue against his products being uniquely his. Although the methodology isn't the same, it's not conceptually different from an artist replicating a painting as closely as possible stroke-by-stroke to better understand it.

So the way I see it, the bottom line here is: Is a BK jacket merely a copy of a Nowak, or is it its own thing? This is a legitimate question. People in this very thread have suggested that there are distinct differences between them. Whether those differences are improvements or not seems to be personal opinion, but there *are* differences.

And if there are distinct differences, did BK *EVER* release a jacket that was fundamentally indistinguishable from a Nowak, or were there changes from the very first jacket released? Because I think that's important to know.

Maybe taking apart a jacket is a short cut over observation, but if the end result is a product that *is* different from the original, I'm not certain it crosses the "recaster" line.

And I think what complicates this situation even more is that recasting itself exists in such a fuzzy gray area. It's considered perfectly acceptable to create a mold from an actual screen-used prop, but unacceptable for someone else to create a mold from *that* copy. Based on that logic, if someone got their hands on an actual Nowak screen-used jacket, made patterns, and created a virtually exact duplicate, they'd be within the "safe" zone of the prop community. That's what makes this such an interesting conversation.

I have a question. Aren't famous designer gowns copied all the time and sold openly?

Gailen

It has always been my understanding the items such as props more than likely have registered and intellectual property laws protecting them from duplication by unfranchised vendors.

Except under exceptional circumstances, clothing does not. A lot of duplication is done via reverse engineering, and has been the case for many years.

Is this not the case?

If so, then one can not be compared to the other.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:It has always been my understanding the items such as props more than likely have registered and intellectual property laws protecting them from duplication by unfranchised vendors.

Except under exceptional circumstances, clothing does not. A lot of duplication is done via reverse engineering, and has been the case for many years.

Is this not the case?

If so, then one can not be compared to the other.

Regards! Michaelson

Exactly!

I reverse engineered a flying saucer just the other day. Now I get a million miles to the gallon!

Yeah, but you're never home now.

Texan Scott wrote:I reverse engineered a flying saucer just the other day. Now I get a million miles to the gallon!

I don't blieve you. The Odometer only reads to 999000 miles.

...well, I just make it up as I go!

Zuiun wrote:

Indiego Jones wrote:IMO, it isn't ok to take apart a jacket.

On the Penman website, John says that he took apart hats to see how they were constructed.

I do not see anything inherently wrong with this. It was part of how he learned his craft, and no one would argue against his products being uniquely his. Although the methodology isn't the same, it's not conceptually different from an artist replicating a painting as closely as possible stroke-by-stroke to better understand it.

So the way I see it, the bottom line here is: Is a BK jacket merely a copy of a Nowak, or is it its own thing? This is a legitimate question. People in this very thread have suggested that there are distinct differences between them. Whether those differences are improvements or not seems to be personal opinion, but there *are* differences.

And if there are distinct differences, did BK *EVER* release a jacket that was fundamentally indistinguishable from a Nowak, or were there changes from the very first jacket released? Because I think that's important to know.

Maybe taking apart a jacket is a short cut over observation, but if the end result is a product that *is* different from the original, I'm not certain it crosses the "recaster" line.

And I think what complicates this situation even more is that recasting itself exists in such a fuzzy gray area. It's considered perfectly acceptable to create a mold from an actual screen-used prop, but unacceptable for someone else to create a mold from *that* copy. Based on that logic, if someone got their hands on an actual Nowak screen-used jacket, made patterns, and created a virtually exact duplicate, they'd be within the "safe" zone of the prop community. That's what makes this such an interesting conversation.

You statement is true but I never took a mold of a hat like say Steve's Raiders hat to make my block for my block offering.

I have had another person who offers a Raiders hat buy one of my hats just to see how I constructed the bow, how I attached it to the hat. I don't take offense to that at all but would have been bent if he made a mold of the block shape. Can I stop anyone. No of ourse not.

By the way those hats you speak of where cheap hats costing around 15 -50 dollars and I don't use any of that construction to make my hats. I don't use any of the block shapes at all. I have looked at many vintage hats, Steve, Marc's and many other hats without taking them apart. I have a CS hat from Steve and Marc and could have easly taken it apart and made a mold of it for the block shape but didn't. That's why my CS hat is close but not spot on. I have respect for Steve and won't steel his block shape.

I don't see a problem with taking apart a jacket to learn how to construct a jacket in general. I do have a problem with taking the pattern without permission.


See the difference.

BendingOak wrote:You statement is true but I never took a mold of a hat like say Steve's Raiders hat to make my block for my block offering.

Is that even possible to do, though? Make an exact duplicate of a hat from just the hat (i.e., none of the production materials)? I mean, I don't know, so I'm genuinely curious how close of a copy you could get without the original blocks.

Because I think that comes down to my question from my previous post: Just how close of a copy *is* the BK to a Nowak? That, I think gets down to the nitty gritty of it. There may be two ethical dilemmas going on here: 1) Is it ethical to take apart the jacket to answer measurement / construction questions, and 2) is it ethical to produce an exact copy (or as close as possible) of someone else's prop reproduction?

In my mind, only the second one relates to this hobby.

And if a Nowak jacket was taken apart to solve questions, but that process created a jacket that is close, but still uniquely different, then I'm not sure what the problem is as far as a prop replica goes.

If you want to boil it down, I think the bigger issue is this...some think that a jacket vendor is playing dirty pool, and offends their sensibilities, so they do not want people to buy from the vendor, but to buy a jacket from the other vendor(s)...?

Texan Scott wrote:If you want to boil it down, I think the bigger issue is this...some think that a jacket vendor is playing dirty pool, and offends their sensibilities, so they do not want people to buy from the vendor, but to buy a jacket from the other vendor(s)...?

You can think that all you want Scott but don't project. My question is what is the difference between recasting a prop then taken a pattern or block shape. There shouldn't be but there is.

I'm still looking for a SA Raiders style jacket, sorry no disrespect for the current conversation, I was ready to pull the trigger on a Wested Hero and then read on this thread that the Hero, although nice, was not up to spec like the BK Relic Hunter. I then did my homework and checked out BK's website and found that the Relice Hunter in authentic brown in grainy lambskin was only another $120-$150 more than the Hero. I'd rather have a quality piece now than a closet full of been there done thats. What do you guys think ?? opinions/advice/owners ??

Texan Scott wrote:If you want to boil it down, I think the bigger issue is this...some think that a jacket vendor is playing dirty pool, and offends their sensibilities, so they do not want people to buy from the vendor, but to buy a jacket from the other vendor(s)...?

It's apparent that we share different beliefs and that's fine. But don't try and put words in my mouth. I never said that I do not want people to buy from BK or to buy from another vendor. Anybody here is free to purchase whatever jacket makes them happy. I have no ill-feelings towards the people at BK. I just rather not spend my money on their product. And I would also rather put that money in an American vendor.

I think it was not difficult to see the handwriting on the wall. Used to, the membership were sharply divided in different "vendor camps" so to speak. As such, a new member would start a thread asking for advice, and you almost knew what the response would be, based on who was posting. Inevitably, members would choose up sides, and then the fallout, or 'jacket wars' as we knew it. Flame on, bebe, and the flame wars would ignite. It is not as lively around the jacket forum as it used to be, but residual sentiments still boil to the surface occasionally.

If a member is asking for advice, better to size up what he is wanting, ie custom/OTR, skin, budget, etc., then recommend accordingly. The best opinion is as objective as possible and meets needs.

micsteam wrote:I'm still looking for a SA Raiders style jacket, sorry no disrespect for the current conversation, I was ready to pull the trigger on a Wested Hero and then read on this thread that the Hero, although nice, was not up to spec like the BK Relic Hunter. I then did my homework and checked out BK's website and found that the Relice Hunter in authentic brown in grainy lambskin was only another $120-$150 more than the Hero. I'd rather have a quality piece now than a closet full of been there done thats. What do you guys think ?? opinions/advice/owners ??

My best advice: Don't ask others opinions or advices. Try to create your own.

Do the homework.
There's so much info about jackets, accuracy and details in this forum.
You just have to search.

Regards.-

Texan Scott wrote:I think it was not difficult to see the handwriting on the wall. Used to, the membership were sharply divided in different "vendor camps" so to speak. As such, a new member would start a thread asking for advice, and you almost knew what the response would be, based on who was posting. Inevitably, members would choose up sides, and then the fallout, or 'jacket wars' as we knew it. Flame on, bebe, and the flame wars would ignite. It is not as lively around the jacket forum as it used to be, but residual sentiments still boil to the surface occasionally.

If a member is asking for advice, better to size up what he is wanting, ie custom/OTR, skin, budget, etc., then recommend accordingly. The best opinion is as objective as possible and meets needs.

Very true Scott but you don't need to go there yourself. As I remember it a lot of it has been removed.

I think what raises the hackles is anytime one sees the 'vs' installed between two product names.

It pretty much says there has to be a loser to a 'contest'.

I believe the intent was to ask a comparison in a side by side comparison regarding SA.

That's when the 'faithful' come running to protect their favorite!

Regards! Michaelson

And remember it's just a jacket. No one outside of the people on the forum are going to know if it's SA or even what kind of leather it is. God knows I can promise you they definitely wont know if it drapes correctly.


Gailen

Michaelson wrote:I think what raises the hackles is anytime one sees the 'vs' installed between two product names.

It pretty much says there has to be a loser to a 'contest'.

I believe the intent was to ask a comparison in a side by side comparison regarding SA.

That's when the 'faithful' come running to protect their favorite!

Regards! Michaelson

I disagree. when someone recast a prop. Everyone runs to the originals defense. Why is it seen differently when it's about the gear.

I will know...and I want a screen accurate jacket. Even if I am the only one who knows the differences. I didnt mean to start a business ethics battle here, just trying to figure out if there were any differences between the TN raiders and the BK raiders.

We're sort of talking in circles now, John. ANY reproduction is a recast of the original headpiece, idol, jacket, hat, or whatever we saw on film. When people recast something and it is good, popular and others buy it, then there is a tendency to claim ownership of it. How can anyone claim exclusivity, when it is a repro. of the thing they originally saw on film? Vendors should be thankful that LFL etc., allow others to make unauthorized copies of this stuff for profit without legal/financial repercussions. Step further. Back on the jacket...? Someone from LFL brought the Raiders film jacket, most likely the Hawaii film jacket for him to copy. Whose jacket was copying...? Someone elses work, chances are: Peter, Western Costumes, Deb N.

BendingOak wrote:

Michaelson wrote:I think what raises the hackles is anytime one sees the 'vs' installed between two product names.

It pretty much says there has to be a loser to a 'contest'.

I believe the intent was to ask a comparison in a side by side comparison regarding SA.

That's when the 'faithful' come running to protect their favorite!

Regards! Michaelson

I disagree. when someone recast a prop. Everyone runs to the originals defense. Why is it seen differently when it's about the gear.

Why don't you ask this in the prop section? No one's answering you here because most prop makers haven't read this thread.

does the wested hero jacket even compare to the BK?

The Dude wrote:

BendingOak wrote:

Michaelson wrote:I think what raises the hackles is anytime one sees the 'vs' installed between two product names.

It pretty much says there has to be a loser to a 'contest'.

I believe the intent was to ask a comparison in a side by side comparison regarding SA.

That's when the 'faithful' come running to protect their favorite!

Regards! Michaelson

I disagree. when someone recast a prop. Everyone runs to the originals defense. Why is it seen differently when it's about the gear.

Why don't you ask this in the prop section? No one's answering you here because most prop makers haven't read this thread.

Really John? How old are you?

The Dude wrote:Really John? How old are you?

I could ask you the same thing. Why have the icon if you can't use it.

Come again?

The question is for the gear people not the prop.

Toldog07 wrote:I will know...and I want a screen accurate jacket. Even if I am the only one who knows the differences. I didnt mean to start a business ethics battle here, just trying to figure out if there were any differences between the TN raiders and the BK raiders.

I agree, buy for yourself and no one else. I own both the TN and the BK, as I'm sure many do. I prefer the BK. Just my two bits.

Gailen

No John, I'm not going to fight you. You apparently want to. You've been poking a stick in this thread since it started about this question. I could really care less, sorry. The way I look at all these questions about copying and recasting is that the folks here are generally going to buy what they like and by whoever they want.

I don't care about recasts or copies. I don't even own a prop.

But you can keep asking folks about recasting props as much as you like in a jacket thread. Be my guest.

The Dude wrote:No John, I'm not going to fight you. You apparently want to. You've been poking a stick in this thread since it started about this question. I could really care less, sorry. The way I look at all these questions about copying and recasting is that the folks here are generally going to buy what they like and by whoever they want.

I don't care about recasts or copies. I don't even own a prop.

But you can keep asking folks about recasting props as much as you like in a jacket thread. Be my guest.

Try to take the time and read my post before you dismiss them. I'm not asking about props. I'm using them as a example. No the difference. No one was fighting in this thread. We were having a discussion that I thought had good pionts on both sides. Would have liked that someone would have answered my question. You are the one looking for a fight not me. Try not to put worlds in my mouth.

Um John, you said "bring it on" then kindly re-edited your post. Don't act innocent here. I offered a suggestion about prop makers, so you could get your answer.

The Dude wrote:Um John, you said "bring it on" then kindly re-edited your post. Don't act innocent here. I offered a suggestion about prop makers, sound you could get your answer.

Sorry. You are wrong. I never said "bring it on" that was not the words I used.

Ok...riddle me this, Johnny....

Texan Scott wrote:We're sort of talking in circles now, John. ANY reproduction is a recast of the original headpiece, idol, jacket, hat, or whatever we saw on film. When people recast something and it is good, popular and others buy it, then there is a tendency to claim ownership of it. How can anyone claim exclusivity, when it is a repro. of the thing they originally saw on film? Vendors should be thankful that LFL etc., allow others to make unauthorized copies of this stuff for profit without legal/financial repercussions. Step further. Back on the jacket...? Someone from LFL brought the Raiders film jacket, most likely the Hawaii film jacket for him to copy. Whose jacket was copying...? Someone elses work, chances are: Peter, Western Costumes, Deb N.

Sorry Scott but I'm out.

Sorry I misquoted you John, you removed the threat or whatever you call it almost as soon as you posted it.

Please everyone lets get back to the topic at hand.



-The Dude

BendingOak wrote: My question is what is the difference between recasting a prop then taken a pattern or block shape. There shouldn't be but there is.

I think Michaelson hit this one on the head. In terms of legality, some things are not as well protected as others. So, if your guiding principles are legality, then one might have ground to stand on, objecting to one kind of "recast" and not another. From a legal standpoint, if the original "artist" or some other party has rights, and copying is done without permission, it's stealing.

However, ethics and legality often don't sit comfortably together. Plus ethics can be rather individually defined. Even thinking this over for myself, I find it's gets blurry.

All that said, let us not forget the role that we, the fans, play in all this. WE (as a community) spent years demanding, hoping, searching for exact copies of the jackets, the hats, etc. We purchased MOUNTAINS of merchandise and then said they weren't quite what we wanted. So, vendors began seeing the writing on the wall...

Too bad you say you're out, John. I was enjoying this discussion. As you said, good points on either side.

You want to know why it seems to be ok to copy a garment, but not another kind of prop. That directly leads to my question: Is there such a thing as an exact copy of an article of clothing? Is that even possible?

In this specific case, I know that the BK jacket is *supposed* to be a copy of the Nowak. But is it really? It's been said in this thread by people who own both jackets that they prefer one over the other. That suggests *some* kind of difference. I'd like to know what that difference is. How much of a difference is it? Is it enough to legitimately make the BK jacket something distinctly different from a Nowak, regardless of its origins?

Because THAT'S the heart of one big issue with recasting.

It seems that everyone has a different opinion on what, exactly, constitutes recasting (thus the huge gray area within the topic), but one thing that everyone agrees on is that an exact copy of someone else's replica is no good. If I take a replica idol created by someone in the community and I'm reasonably competent with using the materials, I can create a mold and duplicate that idol virtually exactly. And everyone in the prop community would be up in arms.

But if I take that same idol and maybe I see some things in it that I don't think are accurate, so I resculpt some parts of it. Maybe I design it so that I can hollow it out and add in eyes. Then I cast my own versions off of that. It looks really close to the original source, but has subtle changes that maybe only *we* would notice, but that ultimately make it a different product. It's going to create a split of opinions. Some people think that's fine and a good way to progress the hobby. Others will still cry foul.

And it seems as though that second situation is closer to what's going on here, and why it's so hard to find a definitive agreement on whether or not this is ethical.

I don't get it. People have wanted as a close a copy as possible to Ford's Raiders jacket, and now they have one. What's the problem? Tony was lucky enough and awesome enough that folks at Lucasfilm offered him the actual hero jacket to COPY, and he was able to sell to the fans what they have been wanting for nearly 30 years. Sadly, Tony passed away and Riley is not in the business of selling those jackets anymore, so Bill Kelso stepped in and copied a Nowak Raider's. Not only that, he seems to be offering the best leather that's been available to date, quite different than the leather Tony offered.

If Tony were still around and still in business, I'd expect people to get upset. But since he and his business are no longer available to us, I think it is fantastic that a truly screen accurate jacket is still available for purchase through another company.

I've owned 2 TN's. One was a Raiders that TN made in Nowak goat and the other was the last batch of a LC in happy cow, actually a marbled italian cowhide, more or less. Except for the lighter weight skins, Nowaks are sturdy and hefty jackets in these types of skins. Not my thing for repros of these jackets, so I sold them, and have not missed them since. Nothing against him, nor his company, just not what I was looking for.

During the summer, I bought a BK and in terms of a faithful reproduction to the original Raiders jacket, it is as close as you can get, imo. The leather is thin enough, but not too thin, nor too thick; just the right texture. It is not a heavy jacket, and it has the moves. The ribby striations do not appear all over the jacket, just in parts. It is also a very well made jacket, on par with anything produced today. Old world European craftsmanship as KT has said. Does the price justify it? That's in the eye of the beholder, but forever, we've wanted a very faithful copy of the original.

Having said that, Wested's Hero, custom, choice of skin, is a very good jacket for $300. Accurate specs. Well made. Faithful to the original, quirky pattern and all. Had I been brand new to the 'sport' and it was my first jacket, I probably would have never bought another.

G&B Goatskin, the veritable tank of a jacket. I use mine to repel mortar rounds! No, in terms of construction, if there is a jacket that the other vendors could learn a lesson from, it is this one. Best made and engineered.

Lastly, Todd's Std. for $200 gets honorable mention. The new choice of grainy, pliable lambskin, bumps his jacket up a notch in its price range.

Toldog07 wrote:From what I understand, the BK is a copy of the Nowak raiders jacket, which is a copy of an original, but has anyone compared the Nowak to the BK? Are they identical or does one have the edge of being a better screen accurate jacket?

Straight answer: Are exactly identical.

(I've seen a side by side comparison)

Regards.-

BK did copy a TN jacket, but, they did not take it apart.
They borrowed a jacket (#517, a 1:1 "warts and all" copy) and returned it to the owner in one piece when they were done with it.

To me, that's the same as buying a headpiece or an idol and using it as a reference to make your own sculpt.

Forrest For the Trees wrote:I don't get it. People have wanted as a close a copy as possible to Ford's Raiders jacket, and now they have one. What's the problem? Tony was lucky enough and awesome enough that folks at Lucasfilm offered him the actual hero jacket to COPY, and he was able to sell to the fans what they have been wanting for nearly 30 years. Sadly, Tony passed away and Riley is not in the business of selling those jackets anymore, so Bill Kelso stepped in and copied a Nowak Raider's. Not only that, he seems to be offering the best leather that's been available to date, quite different than the leather Tony offered.

You know, this is a good point to bring up. And again, this gets into just why there is so much gray area in the prop recasting subject.

If a prop replica is absolutely positively no longer in production, there isn't a stigma attached to "recasting" it -- at least not nearly to the degree as otherwise.

kwad wrote:BK did copy a TN jacket, but, they did not take it apart.
They borrowed a jacket (#117, a 1:1 "warts and all" copy) and returned it to the owner in one piece when they were done with it.

Well, that settles it. This isn't a "recasting" issue no matter how you slice it then.

thank you for the last few posts that were relevant to my OP and not a bunch of elementary school children calling each other copy cats

....did not!

Texan Scott wrote:I've owned 2 TN's. One was a Raiders that TN made in Nowak goat and the other was the last batch of a LC in happy cow, actually a marbled italian cowhide, more or less. Except for the lighter weight skins, Nowaks are sturdy and hefty jackets in these types of skins. Not my thing for repros of these jackets, so I sold them, and have not missed them since. Nothing against him, nor his company, just not what I was looking for.

During the summer, I bought a BK and in terms of a faithful reproduction to the original Raiders jacket, it is as close as you can get, imo. The leather is thin enough, but not too thin, nor too thick; just the right texture. It is not a heavy jacket, and it has the moves. The ribby striations do not appear all over the jacket, just in parts. It is also a very well made jacket, on par with anything produced today. Old world European craftsmanship as KT has said. Does the price justify it? That's in the eye of the beholder, but forever, we've wanted a very faithful copy of the original.

Having said that, Wested's Hero, custom, choice of skin, is a very good jacket for $300. Accurate specs. Well made. Faithful to the original, quirky pattern and all. Had I been brand new to the 'sport' and it was my first jacket, I probably would have never bought another.

G&B Goatskin, the veritable tank of a jacket. I use mine to repel mortar rounds! No, in terms of construction, if there is a jacket that the other vendors could learn a lesson from, it is this one. Best made and engineered.

Lastly, Todd's Std. for $200 gets honorable mention. The new choice of grainy, pliable lambskin, bumps his jacket up a notch in its price range.

Now I don't own a BK Raiders, but I did have a A2 for a while, their stitching is remarkable. Even and precise. There is a close up of one on the FL showing the precision. See the pocket photo here: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthre ... Dubow-1755" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Yes, better than the G&B I had for a short time and sold.