Club Obi Wan

Of course, the buying decision is subjective, weighing all the factors, etc. While some of it is informing. The three stunt jackets of the third order saw screen time and saw time on the man's back as well. They were made to be exact copies of the hero jacket from the first order.

I'm not here to take a position as such, but simply to provide choices. Viable options and quality value for your hard-earned money.

What are the differences between:

- Striated Lamb

- Shrunken Lamb

- Goatskin

- (regular?) lamb

- "747" cow



I have a general sense of goat (tougher, heavier, grainier, more matte) vs. lamb (shinier, more supple, lighter, more prone to scratching and wear) vs. cow (much tougher, considerably heavier, thickest grain, shinier, less ability to drape due to thicker leather). But I have no idea about the fine details here, nor about the differences between striated, shrunken, and "regular" lamb.

Call or email him and ask for the samples. That is the best way for you to make that determination. I don't know how many times i was leaning toward a hide, then changed my mind when I received the samples. But this is something only you can know from the samples you recieve....and I woudn't decide before I had them in hand, if that is of any help?

That's a fact and a half, Tex.

HanJones handed me some TN leather samples he brought along to DragonCon year before last, and what he showed me looked NOTHING like what I had seen in posts here, so having a sample in hand beats ANYTHING you can possible do by staring at screen grabs.

Regards! Michaelson

Texan Scott wrote:Of course, the buying decision is subjective, weighing all the factors, etc. While some of it is informing. The three stunt jackets of the third order saw screen time and saw time on the man's back as well. They were made to be exact copies of the hero jacket from the first order.

The fact that a stunt jacket is worn by the hero character, doesn't turn it into a HERO JACKET.
A HERO JACKET has different purposes and detail accuracy than a STUNT JACKET.

A stunt jacket, for ex., has more room for paddings, and press studs and rings are removed in order to avoid stuntman's injuries during filming. So, pockets and sidestraps are sewed on leather.
A HERO jacket is created for fitting correctly the main actor, to make him look good.

A HERO jacket looks different from a STUNT jacket, in terms of details and proportions.-

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd wrote:SA= screen accurate. TN copied a SCREEN-USED jacket. That's where I go for SA.

And Tony told me directly while making my jacket that the screen-used jacket he copied "was a #### piece of ####." So, I guess that means if you want a TRULY SA jacket, it's gotta be a quickly made, wonky piece of poo. So, those of you that have a fantastically made Nowak don't really have SA jackets!

BendingOak wrote: and thats what I paid for my Raiders 747. I think some are blowing the price increase out of whack for some reason.

Thanks for the correction. But I was only $50 off. I recalled that Riley raised the price of the CS once or twice since taking over the biz.

binkmeisterRick wrote:

HWaltonJonesJr.Phd wrote:SA= screen accurate. TN copied a SCREEN-USED jacket. That's where I go for SA.

And Tony told me directly while making my jacket that the screen-used jacket he copied "was a #### piece of ####." So, I guess that means if you want a TRULY SA jacket, it's gotta be a quickly made, wonky piece of poo.

AH! So... was made by PETER after all...uh?

Indiego Jones wrote:

Texan Scott wrote:Of course, the buying decision is subjective, weighing all the factors, etc. While some of it is informing. The three stunt jackets of the third order saw screen time and saw time on the man's back as well. They were made to be exact copies of the hero jacket from the first order.

The fact that a stunt jacket is worn by the hero character, doesn't turn it into a HERO JACKET.
A HERO JACKET has different purposes and detail accuracy than a STUNT JACKET.

A stunt jacket, for ex., has more room for paddings, and press studs and rings are removed in order to avoid stuntman's injuries during filming. So, pockets and sidestraps are sewed on leather.
A HERO jacket is created for fitting correctly the main actor, to make him look good.

A HERO jacket looks different from a STUNT jacket, in terms of details and proportions.-

I won't argue with you, Diego, but here is what the Main Site says:

"Order #3. Three “spares” ordered after reviewing the script, and more specifically for the needs of the stunt crew. Because of the variations in Order #2, it was decided to ask for three additional jackets “made identical to the prototype” that would then be held aside for each of the three principal stunt doubles—Terry Leonard, Vic Armstrong and Martin Grace. As production began, this plan fell somewhat by the wayside, with only Grace wearing his jacket during the Elstree shooting. Leonard and Armstrong kept their jackets as souvenirs. Grace’s jacket from Elstree became the de facto “hero” jacket during the filming in Hawaii. "

I interpret "identical" to mean identical.

Texan Scott wrote:

Indiego Jones wrote:

Texan Scott wrote:Of course, the buying decision is subjective, weighing all the factors, etc. While some of it is informing. The three stunt jackets of the third order saw screen time and saw time on the man's back as well. They were made to be exact copies of the hero jacket from the first order.

The fact that a stunt jacket is worn by the hero character, doesn't turn it into a HERO JACKET.
A HERO JACKET has different purposes and detail accuracy than a STUNT JACKET.

A stunt jacket, for ex., has more room for paddings, and press studs and rings are removed in order to avoid stuntman's injuries during filming. So, pockets and sidestraps are sewed on leather.
A HERO jacket is created for fitting correctly the main actor, to make him look good.

A HERO jacket looks different from a STUNT jacket, in terms of details and proportions.-

I won't argue with you, Diego, but here is what the Main Site says:

"Order #3. Three “spares” ordered after reviewing the script, and more specifically for the needs of the stunt crew. Because of the variations in Order #2, it was decided to ask for three additional jackets “made identical to the prototype” that would then be held aside for each of the three principal stunt doubles—Terry Leonard, Vic Armstrong and Martin Grace. As production began, this plan fell somewhat by the wayside, with only Grace wearing his jacket during the Elstree shooting. Leonard and Armstrong kept their jackets as souvenirs. Grace’s jacket from Elstree became the de facto “hero” jacket during the filming in Hawaii. "

I interpret "identical" to mean identical.

Yes, I interpret identical in the same way you do.
However, to clarify this we must ask to the person who wrote this description:

* Were Harrison Ford, Vic Armstrong, Terry Leonard and Martin Grace the exact same size, back in 1980?

Is known that the jacket Leonard use it on the "Truck drag" filming, has no press studs or rings. Everything was sewed in, he said that.

BTW, the protoype was the "Bantu jacket"....the POS jacket...?
If stunt jackets are based on that...I pass.
(allthough, I think stunt jackets were based on HERO's)

Obviously, there are some "IF's" that we don't know, and were not privy to that information, since none of us were there, back in 1980, when the movie was filmed. Yet, I can feel confident that due to the problems with 'details' of the second order, they specifically asked that the 3 stuntman's jackets of the 3rd order be made exactly like the Hero jacket of the first order. Now, whether they used Terry's stunt jacket from the 3rd order and reinforced it so that it could survive the truck drag, whether they used a Wilson's jacket, PoS, BW jacket I don't know. There are too many variables here that remain unanswered...and when you have uncertainty, you can do one of two things, you can speculate, or simply say I don't know. The problem with speculation is that if you tell it enough, sometimes it becomes "gospel" and that involves trying to connect the dots when none are visible. I prefer to simply say, "I don't know" until more trustworthy information from reliable source(s) is added. The unvarified speculation is in and of itself, not wrong, its the "spin" of the speculation that happens after. Two seperate and distinct schools of thought, and it depends upon which school you subscribe to.

Secondly, you can simply look at the yokes of the "BW" jacket and the stunt jackets and discern that the BW was not a stunt jacket of the 3rd order. The G&B jacket was a very faithful copy of the stunt jacket from the 3rd order and it has a high/thin yoke, and this is consistent with the Raiders 'hero' jacket.

Next, I would say that based on the way Todd described the jacket at Flight Suits around the year 2000, he described it as TL's stuntman's jacket that had been put through a great deal of stress, particularly around the elbows if I remember correctly. What could that be...? The elbows were worn out...? No doubt, 'M' has a more detailed recollection.

Lastly, if HF was a 40 for instance, and Vic was a 41, and Terry was a 42, this is a non-issue. Size variances are not the real concern. It was in the jacket's details. The problems with the 2nd order caused the addition of the 3rd order. The details were the most important criteria, as the Main Site says:

"Order #2. Ten additional jackets ordered immediately after the prototype was accepted. In the second order, it was reported there were “minor” variations between them and the hero jacket. None were exact duplicates of the hero jacket and the variations appeared in three areas that members of the wardrobe department could recall: the placement of the collar along the top of the storm flap, the size of the patch pockets and the configuration and design of the gussets. The collar placement was the only area that reportedly gave fits to the script supervisor. There were even variations between the ten themselves, i.e. it was assumed in the rush to fill the order that several people may have worked on elements in slightly different ways. None were considered “mistakes,” just “differences.”

Texan Scott wrote:Call or email him and ask for the samples. That is the best way for you to make that determination. I don't know how many times i was leaning toward a hide, then changed my mind when I received the samples. But this is something only you can know from the samples you recieve....and I woudn't decide before I had them in hand, if that is of any help?

I plan to, yeah.

To the best of everyone's knowledge here, are the differences I described above accurate? Or am I mixing up my materials?

you have detailed the basic differences. However, color, texture, grain, thickness, feel is difficult to discern in this 2 dimensional medium of the forum, and this is where the samples in hand will really benefit you.

Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure I at least had the basics down. Thanks!

Solo4114 wrote:

Texan Scott wrote:Call or email him and ask for the samples. That is the best way for you to make that determination. I don't know how many times i was leaning toward a hide, then changed my mind when I received the samples. But this is something only you can know from the samples you recieve....and I woudn't decide before I had them in hand, if that is of any help?

I plan to, yeah.

To the best of everyone's knowledge here, are the differences I described above accurate? Or am I mixing up my materials?

I concur with all you discribed, except that goat can also be shininig like lamb, it depends the kind of finishing the tannery do.


Texan,
I agree with you, it's not possible to assert some facts without the proper confirmation.
Just trying to deduce based on known info, can lead to speculation.

But...(I'm sorry to continue repeating this word...)
If G&B's jackets are based DIRECTLY from a stunt Raiders jacket, and stunt jackets are "identical" to HERO's....how come G&B's jackets differ that much from TN's ???

OK, thanks for clarification (again)
Regards.-

So if cooper did the hero jackets ( although which hero jackets as the Bantu wind jacket is very different),- does that mean the cooper legend / wings IS close to the TN pattern?

_ wrote:The faithful are creating gospel that is false...

What gospel is that? I don't think anyone here has outright said (at least in this post) that TN created any original Indy jackets or some of the other jackets. Yes its been confirmed Tony copied a LC jacket, and then made improvements to that pattern for the CS jacket. Tony copied the Raiders jacket, thats a well known fact as well. I do believe the Surrogates was Tony's design. So we are buying a copy of a jacket, most people would tend to agree to that fact. Even Magnoli's offering copies of jackets, or even Todd's Indy jacket is a copy, and they are all quality jackets from both vendors. I'm sure many other vendors out there offer copies of jackets too. I'm really not understanding where the "copying" comes into play here?

But, are you trying to say that we are all crazy by saying these are great jackets, and worth the money? If that's the case, that is your opinion. I've made the mistake in the past of buying and selling multiple jackets trying to get the perfect jacket for me. That's lost money that could have been spent on other things. In the end it probably came to close to the cost a TNO jacket anyway, so why not just spend the $$$ upfront ONCE on a quality jacket and save some $$$ in the process. Thats what I feel TNO jackets are, QUALITY. That's why Tony and his team did what they did, and and Riley's team can offer the same quality. That might not how everyone here thinks, but I'm sure there are a bunch that would agree to that.

My issue is one of value, not price. I can save the money to pay for a TN jacket. Might take a bit, but I can do it. The question is then what value I get out of it, as compared to other options, and taking into account the rest of my life and where my money needs to go (and where I want it to go).

In general terms, I'm willing to spend more money up front to get a better, longer-lasting product that is tailored to me.

Example: I've had my Wested since, oh, 2001. It's lasted pretty well (well, except for an incident with an over-curious kitten...), but I'm not as happy with how it's worn over time, and the liner's shot. Replacing a liner wouldn't be cheap, so if I'm in for a penny on the liner, why not in for a pound on a new jacket? Another Wested would be around, what, $300-500? Something like that, I figure (haven't checked their site in a while), and that's for an off-the-rack jacket with probably comparable quality leather. If I'm spending that much for a lower-end (not bad, just lower end), jacket, why not go all-in and get something that will look great, be tailored to my measurements (I can get my suit jacket measurements from a tailor who's made several suits for me), and will be made of what's likely more durable leather? So, if that means I shell out $1K, well, I'll bite the bullet and do that, figuring that I'll be buying a jacket that'll last me 20+ years and be tailored to me, instead of periodically buying off-the-rack jackets for a lower price.



That's just my calculus, though. I don't claim to speak for any objective standard of sanity. Also, I've gone back and forth over this as other issues have popped up (IE: car needed a new clutch this summer....ouch).

Thing is, there's nothing to say a TN will last any longer than any other well made custom jackets that cost significantly less.

Not saying it's not worth the money. Just saying don't use that as the yard stick to measure all others by. The TN jackets haven't been around long enough to make such a claim.

They're well made, that's for sure, but as well made as any other I've owned....and yes, I DO own a CS TN made by Tony himself, and like it as well as any other jacket in my stable that cost substantially less.

Regards! Michaelson

just to give some info about a wested.

a tailored wested goes for 185 pound with shipping. thats 295 dollars.

Solo4114 wrote:My issue is one of value, not price. I can save the money to pay for a TN jacket. Might take a bit, but I can do it. The question is then what value I get out of it, as compared to other options, and taking into account the rest of my life and where my money needs to go (and where I want it to go).

In general terms, I'm willing to spend more money up front to get a better, longer-lasting product that is tailored to me.

Example: I've had my Wested since, oh, 2001. It's lasted pretty well (well, except for an incident with an over-curious kitten...), but I'm not as happy with how it's worn over time, and the liner's shot. Replacing a liner wouldn't be cheap, so if I'm in for a penny on the liner, why not in for a pound on a new jacket? Another Wested would be around, what, $300-500? Something like that, I figure (haven't checked their site in a while), and that's for an off-the-rack jacket with probably comparable quality leather. If I'm spending that much for a lower-end (not bad, just lower end), jacket, why not go all-in and get something that will look great, be tailored to my measurements (I can get my suit jacket measurements from a tailor who's made several suits for me), and will be made of what's likely more durable leather? So, if that means I shell out $1K, well, I'll bite the bullet and do that, figuring that I'll be buying a jacket that'll last me 20+ years and be tailored to me, instead of periodically buying off-the-rack jackets for a lower price.



That's just my calculus, though. I don't claim to speak for any objective standard of sanity. Also, I've gone back and forth over this as other issues have popped up (IE: car needed a new clutch this summer....ouch).

Actually, a custom Wested would be £165, which would equate to roughly $260, (without shipping) so not as much as you might have thought. And if you were after a slightly tougher leather then the soft goat would be my choice. Tougher than the lamb, and almost as soft and light. That's what I went for when I went to Wested to get a Raiders jacket earlier this year. jmo

Ah, I see Holt has put Wested's pricing info up just as I was submitting this post

Joe

And that's where I can't be of any help to you at all, I am afraid. I've NO idea just how the "quality" of a Riley made jacket will compare to an Expedition, Todd's, Wested, Magnoli, Wings, etc....

I've only owned Westeds, Wings, and Expeditions...and have never even SEEN a Nowak or Riley jacket in person to compare the quality of materials...

My instinct says, though...unless you specifically source the leather yourself you want to use for a jacket and send it to Riley (which, I've heard, he will accomodate folks on), then you're dealing with pretty much the same leather that everyone else uses...unless, Riley has sourced something special for you...which, I've also heard, he will do.

What some folks claim is the plus of a Nowak/Bailey jacket lies in its certain accuracy to the Raiders Hero jacket....and for some, that's just worth the money alone.

It does come down to what YOU want on that one...if it's just a question of quality, I just don't know from first-hand experience....can anyone else chime in here? I see Michaelson did..., thanks, M! That's about in line with what I was thinking...

Regards!
Indydawg

Indydawg, yes it's my opinion. Solo asked about a Nowak and I gave my opinion. I don't see nothing wrong with it. I have owned a few different labels and have seen others ( first hand). Looks to me more than you have. I'm also something of a craftsmen myself , or at least some have told me. I think my opinion would be welcomed.



My advise to you solo. Is to go straight to the source and ask him all your question. As someone told me here. You can't go by 2nd hand information. Take scotts advise and ask for samp,e swatches from Riley. He's a nice guy, very helpful and very easy to work with.


By the by

Im not a Nowak faithful , just a very happy customer.


John

BendingOak wrote: My advise to you solo. Is to go straight to the source and ask him all your question. As someone told me here. You can't go by 2nd hand information. Take scotts advise and ask for samp,e swatches from Riley. He's a nice guy, very helpful and very easy to work with.

John

Can't say it any better than what was said right here. Anything you read here can and will be subjective to the opinion of the writer. Go to the source.

Regards! Michaelson

Solo asked about a Nowak and I gave my opinion. I don't see nothing wrong with it. I have owned a few different labels and have seen others ( first hand). Looks to me more than you have. I'm also something of a craftsmen myself , or at least some have told me. I think my opinion would be welcomed.

You did, there wasn't, I'll take your word for it, I've heard the same things, and...your opinion IS welcome...

Maybe I just read the "denouncement" of any OTHER opinion into what you said...

If so..I heartily apologize.

Oh...and I agree, M...that DOES sum it up!

Indydawg

I'll likely end up doing that.

Can anyone here comment on quality comparisons -- in terms of durability of both the leather and how it's all put together -- among the various major jacket sources? Anyone had any particular problems with this or that type of leather or this or that jacket-maker's offering?

I'd just like to second the fact that Riley is a nice guy to deal with. Very helpful and a good communicator. If you are after a particular spec in a custom jacket I'd say it would be easy to get it from Riley over say, Wested who are not great communicators. But then you could buy 4, 5 or 6 westeds for the same money...

I'd just add that my magnoli is very nicely made as was my Todd custom. If anything is going to fail on one of these jackets I'd say it was most likely the lining. In that respect I've heard good things about both G&B and Wings having tough lining

The only problem I've ever had with my TN was a bad zipper. It was immediately replaced with one of exceptional quality, and returned.

This was done by Tony.

I don't know how Riley is going to handle repairs or returns if he continues with his planned shutdown, so that's something to keep in mind down the road. If he keeps his word, you'll have to still find someone 'aftermarket' to repair your jacket should something go wrong in the future, as he won't be around to take care of things like that.

Being one who HAS owned everything but a Magnoli leather, but having several Magnoli custom items otherwise, I'd put the quality right up there with any other custom jackets I've owned. I'd equate it to a Schott made Wings jacket in terms of mil-spec 'feel'. It's definitely one of those items you feel you could wear into battle and come out in pretty decent shape.

That said, the seam work perfect in every respect, but this is based on a single example when compared to the dozens of other vendor's jackets I've owned and handled over the years, and one made by Tony, not Riley. From all reports, though, his work is stated to be equal to Tony.

They're solid as a truck, that's for sure.

Regards! Michaelson

_ wrote:

BendingOak wrote:Since we are giving our opinions. I'll give mine. His prices didn't go way up up up. They did go up but not by that much. If you want the high quality of a custome made jacket no one else comes close to a Nowak.

Yep... Only 30%-50% depending on how honest you are... That's a fact - not an opinion...

And if you don't own anything else, you really can't slam them - can you?

It's nice that you love your jacket, John - but you might want to keep things real...

_

Are you in my closet? How many jackets do I own? How many did I own and have sold off? You might want to get out of the closet.

I don't see any of the jackets market up 50% and all the jacket went up but they are still under 30%


Let's all do the math.

But just think.


What if he IS in your closet?

RIGHT NOW??

Solo4114 wrote:But just think.


What if he IS in your closet?

RIGHT NOW??

I would tell him to get out of my wife's shoes.

...what's in your closet?....er....wallet?

-or-

What is no longer in your wallet is now hanging in your closet?

Hopefully, something folks are happy with.


So, anyone else have any longer-term reviews of how well made the various jackets they have are? Any problems that popped up later?

Actually....no.

You'll find duds by every vendor out there....but all in all we are blessed to have some of the best folks in the world making jackets, hats, heck, just about anything you can think of these days.

You're going to be happy with just about anything you go with. The key to this is make absolutely positive, beyond any shadow of a doubt that you supply the vendor with your CORRECT specifications for size.

I don't care HOW good these folks are...without the correct specs, nothing is going to satisfy you...so do your homework, follow their instructions to the letter, and you're going to be a happy camper.

Regards! Michaelson

I don't know if that was addressed to me but the point of him being a 'nice guy' is that he's easy to deal with and I'd be confident that any specs I gave him would be acted upon. A number of our vendors dont inspire such confidence

Solo4114 wrote:I'll likely end up doing that.

Can anyone here comment on quality comparisons -- in terms of durability of both the leather and how it's all put together -- among the various major jacket sources? Anyone had any particular problems with this or that type of leather or this or that jacket-maker's offering?

I've owned one Wested lamb ca. 2002, one G&B Expo in goat ca. 2003, one G&B Expo in lamb ca. 2005, one Todd's standard lamb ca. 2008 (briefly before returning it), and one TN Raiders in 747 cow ca. 2009.

The Wested had thin, not particularly nice lambskin. The stitching was not very strong. The pattern was not particularly accurate. I sold it and have never really looked at Wested again.

The goat Expo had thick, tough leather that did not drape particularly well. The color was a little light, and the jacket was short in the sleeves in spite of being a tall size. It was very well put together but not particulary well tailored, if that distinction makes sense. It just did not have that Raiders vibe. I sold it primarily because the leather never broke in enough to get a nice Raiders look. (If I had to be dragged behind a truck, though, this is the jacket I would choose to wear.)

The lamb expo had a better drape and look than the goat Expo, and the leather was much nicer than the Wested. It, too, was well built without being well tailored. It was also too short in the sleeve, and too broad in the shoulders, causing the sleeves to hang strangely. I sold it primarily because of the sleeve/drape and length issues.

I bought a Todd's standard because the photos I had seen looked good. It is what I would consider a costume jacket insofar as it looks good, but the leather had a very cheap plastic feel and the hardware was just bad. For $150 it is not a bad option if you know what you are getting, but I would never consider it a long-term jacket. Also, the sizing was not quite right for me as I would probably need a medium long, which Todd did not offer at that time. I returned the jacket.

After being without an Indy jacket for some time and seeing Tony's work on the forum I ordered a 747 Raiders jacket last year. It is very well made, tailored just like the original, and the quality of the leather and hardware is great. As far as I am concerned it is the last Raiders jacket I will need to buy (unless of course my middle age spread requires a larger size). It was $750 if I remember rightly and well worth it. I would definitely put Nowak on the top of the jacket heap from my own (comparatively limited) experience.

If you search my posts you can find reviews of my two G&B jackets, along with a review of the TN and a comment thread on my issues with the G&B sleeves. Hope this helps.

No sweat Todd. Just old over sensitive me

Thanks for the info, guys. This all helps a ton!

_ wrote:I did have a religious experience during the QM. I went to Bates. (queue angelic chorus) I saw the T2 jacket Arnold wore. I saw The prototype "shooter" jacket from T3. I saw all the sketches snd notes for T3. I saw some fxxxgxn cool custom jackets with amazing detail.

Religious experience? Closer than most might think really. It is an epiphany to discover that if you broaden your horizons, you will find that there is not a single jacket god. There are many, many manufacturers (most unknown) who make outrageously awesome jackets depending on what your tastes are. Too many people are not willing to accept that there are others besides the one they worship. That is how wars start. If you opens your mind a little you can be like a kid in a candy store. Of course, you will also be opening your wallet too. See, just like church...

I think we are getting of track on this thread. It's funny how you two go out of you way to debunk
Nowak.

I think nobody is debunking anybody. I think like Rick. my understanding of it is that there are many jacket makers that gives us fans many choices. IMO they are all giving good jackets. There is NO ultimate jacket maker as there is NO ultimate hat maker, shirt, pants. etc. this is just my view of it.

but you are right, this is getting more or less of topic. we should probably get back to it.

Holt, I agree with most of what you are saying but the stories always seem to pop into the Nowak threads.

There's no doubt, Tony Nowak Orginal makes an awesome jacket, Indy or otherwise. That's not in question. Anyone who owns one or has handled one will know they are top quality jackets. I feel very fortunate to have acquired one from a fellow member here.

I think the only thing that is in question is having straight information on ordering one of these jackets from Riley. With no web presence and no presence on this board, with e-mails and calls often unanswered, price increases, and ambiguous information about whether or not he is closing up shop, folks here who are interested in purchasing are understandably frustrated.

Obviously, if someone were seriously interested in ordering, then he or she should just call Riley and get their information directly from the source. One of the functions of this board, however, is to have reliable vendor information right here so fans can make informed decisions on what to purchase.

Thank you Holt, I appreciate that. BendingOak, you and I got off on the wrong foot a while back, and it was mostly my fault. I have nothing against Tony and would be thrilled to own one of his jackets someday. We were discussing the jacket I was interested in when he passed. Financially, it is not in my plans anymore, as other jackets have taken priority. But if the opportunity arises, I will be glad to give accolades to his work. My post was aimed at making an analogy between jacket manufacturers and religion, based on _'s "religious experience" comment. It is in this thread, simply because the post I responded to happened to be in this thread.

Hopefully, cow member Solo has enough information to make his choices much easier. Solo and all of us in the past, have drawn from a collective set of experiences that we have been through, and that is ok, that is what we are partially here for is to help others make a better buying decision for themselves, and to avoid any pitfalls in the process.

"For the right dawg, the right rock." I just want to see you guys get what you paid your hard-earned money for, be it a $150 Todd's Std. or the top of the line.

I just cleaned out this thread. please keep it on topic as I said earlier today.

allright, back to finding that bottle of Jack