Club Obi Wan

Texan Scott wrote:Then again, he claims 'intellectual rights' to the jacket and claims to have the original patterns. If you have original patterns, how could you produce a 'bellhop' jacket? Even the worst memory can be righted if you have patterns.

If you find Lee Keppler's post, he says the 'BellHop' jacket had no action pleat, no vents and if I remember correctly no side straps. There was sign of an action pleat but it was faux, as in Lee said it was sewn shut.
It was ordered not that many years after the movie.

That's what I understood as well, but note the post above. Peter has claimed intellectual rights to the jacket, and if so, then all these design features would have to be his ideas.

Incidently, how is it DN knew so much about the shortcomings of the Wilson's jacket AND the incorporation of the new design features....when she wasn't even there at the meetings (the meeting with B&N personnel and LC before the creation of the leather jacket) in England? Explain that one?

according to her she was there

RCSignals wrote:

Deb Nadoolman wrote: These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

...when she was in the US...before they left for England.

Texan Scott wrote:

RCSignals wrote:

Deb Nadoolman wrote: These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

...when she was in the US...before they left for England.

But then we have this:

PETER wrote:I was there, Noel Howard and Fred were there plus a costume person who I thought at the time to be debera.

So either Deb was there, or some over eager secretary!

"The only complete jacket made to Nadoolman’s specifications was the cloth jacket, which was in fact used in one Raiders sequence where Ford is being chased downhill by the Hovitos. This jacket was used “on the spur of the moment” because the Fuller's Earth adhered to its surface better than its leather compatriots."

According to the write up, she did not recall meeting him?

"Botwright met with Howard and Kimball, and later Ford was brought in for fittings. However, Botwright never actually met with Nadoolman, just Kimball. Nobody on the production can recall Kimball being formally introduced and it seems Botwright assumed she was Nadoolman. Botwright's assumption was not a stretch. Generally, the wardrobe designer would not delegate a task this important to an assistant. Additionally, Nadoolman stated she does not remember ever meeting anybody named Peter Botwright. These subtle points bridge several differences in the recollections provided by Botwright and Nadoolman over the last several years. This also points out certain selective disconnects with the details on the part of Nadoolman."

RCSignals wrote:There is really only one 'different' jacket in the movie as far as pattern details go, the Bantu Wind dockside scene jacket. That jacket does still have action back and side straps. Who's is it?

If my memory serves, according to a semi-older thread that I think has since been deleted, _ stated that the fabled Bantu Wind jacket was made by a guy with a fairly complicated name (Andre or Adrian or something) whose initials are AD (I think). This same clothier makes custom shirts at astronomical prices, if that helps jog anyone elses memory. Anyway, from _'s telling of the account he received from SS, SS was "gunning for DNL" since SS was frustrated with her botching the jacket budget with the Wilson jackets. My understanding of things is AD made the jacket quickly for the first day of filming and SS refered to the jacket as a 'POS' and that's when SS personally called upon Cooper to make a new jacket overnight for heavy/hero use in the rest of filming.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Maybe someone could explain this to a noob, especially as seeing this is my first post. On Peter's website he says:

"My name is Peter Botwright of Wested Leather.

In 1980 I was commissioned to design & make Harrison Ford's 'Indiana Jones' jacket for the film 'Raiders of the Lost Ark',

The jacket passed through many stages of design, finally meeting the exact requirements of both the film's designers and Mr. Harrison Ford himself.

With every replica leather Jacket purchased directly from ourselves we will supply a Certificate of Authenticity confirming that you have purchased an authentic replica and not an unauthorised or inferior copy."

Now, knowing how Spielberg and Lucas protect their creations with controlling licensing, etc...how could Peter have this on his website, for a number of years now, and not be told to take it down or amend what he has written if SS isn't okay with it?

I can only imagine what would happen if I created a website selling Indiana Jones jackets and on top of that said you were buying from the original designer and that the jackets I sold were made to the original specs...I would be shut down in a heartbeat, no?

So if she never met Peter and was never present in the meetings, how did she know of all these design features? they apparently hammered out many if not most of the details before they left for England.

Like RC said (he posted before I could), Peter is not saying that he took the WC mock-up and based his jacket on it. He is saying he basically designed the jacket from scratch.

That seems, to me, to be what he's saying..and, THAT just doesn't seem possible based on MANY levels of inconsistency...

A quote from Noel:

"At the fitting we chose several design features from the various jackets tried on and I then asked Peter to make up a fitting jacket incorporating these features. At the next fitting we tried on this jacket and made some more modifications and then Peter made up another sample and so on until everybody was happy with the look and leather texture."

This would appear to be a collaborative effort.

Even if the WC mock-up was not present, they knew they needed action pleats etc., due to the preliminary work that was done in conjunction with WC.

Texan Scott wrote:

RCSignals wrote:

Deb Nadoolman wrote: These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

...when she was in the US...before they left for England.

Sorry, I'm dense today and don't understand the confusion. She was in England and she took the WC mock-up with her. She has stated this and _ has said as much (when he stated that both Peter and Cooper used the WC mock-up as a base for their jackets).

So, she was involved in the creation of the look of the jacket (i.e., action pleats and so on). It was her going over budget with the Wilsons jacket and entering into the exclusive contract with B and N that landed her in hot water (plus her preoccupation with her upcoming wedding) and her eventual "excommunication" from the production. But she was there as the design of the jacket was conceived and changed according to need. Her involvement became minimal as the production got underway.

Maybe some of this hinges on what we understand "design" to mean. If someone says they want action pleats are they the designer? If someone takes that wish and figures out how to actually make it, are they the designer?

Clearly there was quite a bit of back-and-forth among various parties, and perhaps groups, leading up to the production of the jackets that were used in the film. If jacket versions 2.0, 2.1, and 2.3, each with "design" variations and "tweaks", are all submitted by the guy who's actually making something out of leather, should all of those versions be called different designs?

And then that version 2.3 jacket was distressed (and maybe had a couple of stitches or even strap placement altered on-set) so it becomes version 2.3.1...

If a version 2.1 or 2.2 jacket, which is close to the final version but not quite "SA", is sold later as the film jacket, does that invalidate the maker's claim to authenticity? I know that the legal types would have a lot to say about that, but it just makes my head hurt.

LJ

Crismans,

DN in that quote, recalled the story of her work with WC to produce the design features she wanted incorporated into the jacket...when she was in the US. She and no doubt other(s) working on the costume knew they needed action pleats and a few other features BEFORE they got to England.

There was, however, some "reasonable doubts" in the minds of others, like SS, (apparently)as to if she could produce the 'hero' jacket, based on the outcome of the Wilson's jackets. Based on my understanding, SS took liberty to in essence trump the costume designer and attempt to produce one with the help of NC.

All of that to say that the cosume personnel already knew they needed pleats, an action back, etc., based on her statements about her interaction with WC.....as with her input, WC created the mock-up, incorporating these new design and better functional features. It was at the very least a concept that was understood by the team BEFORE they went to England, as I've tried to state through the various quotes above.

All they needed as to get somebody to make a good jacket out of leather. WC could not do it because of the exclusive B&N contract. Their hands were tied, but they at least produced a cloth mock up. Whether or not it was present at the meeting in England, I do not know, but still, members of the design team ALREADY KNEW about these features because DN and WC created one.....the infamous mock up!

Clear as mud?

I think what it comes down to are Deborah Nadoolman's statements that the action back side straps etc were her design features, design concept, and the Western Costumes mock up that was made under her direction incorporated those features. The mock up is what the Wilson's jacket was based on, and what the replacement jackets made in England were subsequently based on.

That is contradictory with the statements of Peter.

Texan Scott wrote:Crismans,

DN in that quote, recalled the story of her work with WC to produce the design features she wanted incorporated into the jacket...when she was in the US. She and no doubt other(s) working on the costume knew they needed action pleats and a few other features BEFORE they got to England.

There was, however, some "reasonable doubts" in the minds of others, like SS, (apparently)as to if she could produce the 'hero' jacket, based on the outcome of the Wilson's jackets. Based on my understanding, SS took liberty to in essence trump the costume designer and attempt to produce one with the help of NC.

All of that to say that the cosume personnel already knew they needed pleats, an action back, etc., based on her statements about her interaction with WC.....as with her input, WC created the mock-up, incorporating these new design and better functional features. It was at the very least a concept that was understood by the team BEFORE they went to England, as I've tried to state through the various quotes above.

All they needed as to get somebody to make a good jacket out of leather. WC could not do it because of the exclusive B&N contract. Their hands were tied, but they at least produced a cloth mock up. Whether or not it was present at the meeting in England, I do not know, but still, members of the design team ALREADY KNEW about these features because DN and WC created one.....the infamous mock up!

Clear as mud?

Thing is, it appears the Wilson's jackets were made based on the WC mock up.
The problem with the Wilson's was poor quality and poor quality hides.

The mock up design can't have been the problem, if we are to believe NC used the mock up to make the jacket he did for SS, which we are told became the Hero jacket..

That's not what the main site says. It claims the Wilson's were produced first, THEN the WC mock-up came next, incoporating these NEW design features....

"Test fittings done at Western Costumes with Tom Selleck, the actor first cast as Indy, made it clear there were functional problems with the Wilson’s jackets. The jacket would get caught on the gun belt and bullwhip. Additionally, the leather used did not artificially age well and the finish would flake off. Western Costumes interceded and provided a full mock-up jacket in a denim-like cloth, the design of which included an open action pleat that resolved the pattern issues."

The wilson's jackets, with their straight hems were the problems and the fact that they could not be distressed and function...holes, etc.

There is something that is emerging from this. Deborah mentions a 1930's style in the back with pleats and tabs. This sounds like the back of the halfbelt as like the Surrogates jacket, and also the T-birds jacket I believe these both have little tabs at the sides but no lower side 'V's.

I think getting rid of the belt and adding the lower vents and the longer side straps could be what Peter is talking about here.

Texan Scott wrote:That's not what the main site says. It claims the Wilson's were produced first, THEN the WC mock-up came next, incoporating these NEW design features....

"Test fittings done at Western Costumes with Tom Selleck, the actor first cast as Indy, made it clear there were functional problems with the Wilson’s jackets. The jacket would get caught on the gun belt and bullwhip. Additionally, the leather used did not artificially age well and the finish would flake off. Western Costumes interceded and provided a full mock-up jacket in a denim-like cloth, the design of which included an open action pleat that resolved the pattern issues."

It is in contradiction with DN's statements

finally I was given the OK to design and make another set of 10 at Berman’s and Nathan’s Costumier’s once we arrived in London. These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

Honestly, guys....you have two VERY credible men who were involved in the production of Raiders, one Niel Cooper, the other Spielberg himself say that NC made SS a jacket for Raiders. Who are you going to believe? What stake does SS have in all this? He has no cause to spin the details?

Kt Templar wrote:There is something that is emerging from this. Deborah mentions a 1930's style in the back with pleats and tabs. This sounds like the back of the halfbelt as like the Surrogates jacket, and also the T-birds jacket I believe these both have little tabs at the sides but no lower side 'V's.

I think getting rid of the belt and adding the lower vents and the longer side straps could be what Peter is talking about here.

Read the quote again...

"These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist."

...a 30's pattern device which allowed for more arm movement. You took the quote out of context. More arm movement is either gussets or pleats, or both.

I see no contradiction....

10 jackets from wilsons---corrected pattern (WC mockup)---go ahead for 10 at B&N

Texan Scott wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:There is something that is emerging from this. Deborah mentions a 1930's style in the back with pleats and tabs. This sounds like the back of the halfbelt as like the Surrogates jacket, and also the T-birds jacket I believe these both have little tabs at the sides but no lower side 'V's.

I think getting rid of the belt and adding the lower vents and the longer side straps could be what Peter is talking about here.

Read the quote again...

"These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist."

...a 30's pattern device which allowed for more arm movement. You took the quote out of context. More arm movement is either gussets or pleats, or both.

Since she specifically says 'of inset pleats' we can safely assume it is pleats. not to say there could not have been gussets as well.

What Kt is drawing into question are the vents at the bottom of the jacket, and the pleats extending to the bottom of the jacket.

Texan Scott wrote:I see no contradiction....

10 jackets from wilsons---corrected pattern (WC mockup)---go ahead for 10 at B&N

the contradiction is the order of creation for the WC mock up.

These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume.

And Deb Nadoolman's recollections seem to have been discredited. I believe that Neil made a jacket that was on screen and Peter made a jacket that was on screen. It's a matter of taste as to which jacket in which scene we each like.

I think multiple people were given similar direction more or less simultaneously and came to a similar product. I'm tired of listening to somebody try to take sole cedit. I'm inclined to believe people who don't crave the spotlight more.

My two cents

I believe this is the type of back Deborah is talking about.

http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL806/14 ... 781708.jpg

In what way was Nadoolman discredited?

She was not discredited for the WC mock up, which she says incorporated the action back, pleats and side straps, which we have been told was copied by Neil Cooper as well as by Peter. Peter however claims he designed the jacket and hasn't mentioned copying the WC mock up.

If DNs claim in this area relating to the design and creation of the WC mock up has been discredited, how accurate is the claim that NC copied the WC mock up? Also how could two people (NC and PB) who apparently did not communicate with each other create two pretty much identical jackets independently?

I understood her services were unappreciated and SS substituted his own guidance.

Tibor wrote:I understood her services were unappreciated and SS substituted his own guidance.

Whatever SS feelings about Nadoolman were, it has been stated that the jacket Neil Cooper made was copied from the WC mock up. That mock up is a work of Nadoolman.

It was suggested that another individual, 'Alex'? made a jacket in England for Nadoolman which deviated from the WC mock up slightly and SS did not like it, so had NC make a jacket 'in secret'

That's my understanding too

It doesn't discredit Nadoolman's work in relation to the WC mock up.

Rick Deckard wrote:Now, knowing how Spielberg and Lucas protect their creations with controlling licensing, etc...how could Peter have this on his website, for a number of years now, and not be told to take it down or amend what he has written if SS isn't okay with it?

I can only imagine what would happen if I created a website selling Indiana Jones jackets and on top of that said you were buying from the original designer and that the jackets I sold were made to the original specs...I would be shut down in a heartbeat, no?

Actually, in the fervor over Crystal Skull, LFL and SS did go after a bunch of sites and even Peter's was changed. I believe mostly the text regarding ToD. Other sites such as FS had to change their references to Indy as well. The only one untouched…US Wings.

Right. In all the fast posting my post was taken as a response to someone. It wasn't. Just a general post on the topic.

And Mike, I thought that was significant too.

You all do realize that someday the answers to all of these questions will be found in Jimmy Hoffa's briefcase?

Mike wrote:

Rick Deckard wrote:Now, knowing how Spielberg and Lucas protect their creations with controlling licensing, etc...how could Peter have this on his website, for a number of years now, and not be told to take it down or amend what he has written if SS isn't okay with it?

I can only imagine what would happen if I created a website selling Indiana Jones jackets and on top of that said you were buying from the original designer and that the jackets I sold were made to the original specs...I would be shut down in a heartbeat, no?

Actually, in the fervor over Crystal Skull, LFL and SS did go after a bunch of sites and even Peter's was changed. I believe mostly the text regarding ToD. Other sites such as FS had to change their references to Indy as well. The only one untouched…US Wings.

And this is the smoking gun that I logged on to talk about. US Wings has put out ads in various forms that say very specifically that they made the Raiders jacket (Wings took over Cooper's business, of course). Not that their design is based on it, not that their jacket sort of looks like it, not if you squint one eye and hop about you'll get dizzy and think it's the jacket, but that they made the Raiders jacket. During the Crystal Skull mania where LFL lawyers were roaming the hillsides with torches, US Wings never had to back off that statement. This has been touched on before (I know, for example, that Michaelson has mentioned it) and is very telling.

Indydawg

I just love this place more and more, every time I log on there is such a vast amount of info on things I've often wondered about.

Peace

John

All this being said why do none of my westeds look like the jacket on screen?

Han, it's because they were made from the original patterns.

Texan Scott wrote:Han, it's because they were made from the original patterns.

"Based on these sketches, “ten military-style plain cuffed and plain hemmed leather jackets” were ordered from Wilson’s Leather in Los Angeles. This was the extent of the original specification, and Wilson’s responded with an altered A2-like jacket design that removed the jersey knits from the hems and cuffs."
What I got from this text on the main page is that these Wilson's were basically A-2's with the elastic cuffs and hems removed and were leather instead. This is why they had problems, gun and whip was hung up, etc., so DN got with WC, modified the jacket concept and produced the new, WC mock-up. DN had already ordered the 10 plain leather cuff & waist Wilson's jackets, so she took the 10 Wilson's and the WC mock up to England. Again, the design features were in place on the mock up, and since WC could not produce them in final, leather form, she reverted to B&N and their "exclusive" contract to fill the order and hopefully get these jackets to film....in the meantime, possibly concurrently, SS with NC produced a jacket for Raiders, independent of DN.

Somebody who is in the know, ie a mod, etc., correct me if I'm wrong.

I see no contradiction....

10 jackets from wilsons---corrected pattern (WC mockup)---go ahead for 10 at B&N.

The contradiction is the WC mock up existed first. It was what the Wilson's were based on, and developed with Tom Selleck when he was in the mix as Hero.

again:

These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume.

Texan Scott wrote:"Based on these sketches, “ten military-style plain cuffed and plain hemmed leather jackets” were ordered from Wilson’s Leather in Los Angeles. This was the extent of the original specification, and Wilson’s responded with an altered A2-like jacket design that removed the jersey knits from the hems and cuffs."
What I got from this text on the main page is that these Wilson's were basically A-2's with the elastic cuffs and hems removed and were leather instead. This is why they had problems, gun and whip was hung up, etc., so DN got with WC, modified the jacket concept and produced the new, WC mock-up. DN had already ordered the 10 plain leather cuff & waist Wilson's jackets, so she took the 10 Wilson's and the WC mock up to England. Again, the design features were in place on the mock up, and since WC could not produce them in final, leather form, she reverted to B&N and their "exclusive" contract to fill the order and hopefully get these jackets to film....in the meantime, possibly concurrently, SS with NC produced a jacket for Raiders, independent of DN.

Somebody who is in the know, ie a mod, etc., correct me if I'm wrong.

Only on the main page does it say that about the wilson's

Nadoolman says the Wilson's were as i posted above, "also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume." with the problem being they were made of very cheap, nondurable leather.

Maybe she is confusing the conceptual sketches that Wilson's worked with and the design modifications she made with WC? She obviously knew quite a bit about the modified design before they left for England--for someone who was apparently not there at the meeting when the jacket was made into leather.

Why would she confuse the conceptual sketches with the WC mock up? She is consistent in mentioning the WC mockup, I have yet to read an interview of her in which she mentions any actual jacket was based on the conceptual sketches.
The conceptual sketch that has been shown isn't even an A-2 without knits, it is an A-2.

It says that Wilson's modified the A-2, as above. They obviously did not stick to her conceptual sketches, but that is what happens. You put an idea down on paper and sometimes it morphs into something else.

Speaking of things morphing into something else...

Some food for thought, gentlemen (and women)....straight from Sarge at US Wings, word-for-word and unedited...take it for what you will.

You know I really feel Neil did make the First Indy Jacket and no doubt
Peter from the UK could have made one of the first Indy Jackets ! But not
really. Neither one of these men made a original jacket! I have always been
a person that gives credit where credit is due.. Yes no doubt Neils Indy was
used by HF in the first movie and no doubt Peters Indy was used by one or
more of the stunt men..I think I have one But not 100 % positive because I
was not there.
Now why do I say But not really.. Very simple.. The Hero Jacket that was
used in the First Indy Movie to the last Movie was and is a Copy 100 % It is
copied from the USAAF A-2 and the G-8 used by the US Navy and a little of
the US Navy G-1.
There is no Original Indiana Jones Jacket. If so Business Affairs of Lucas
Films would have an exclusive owners rights and or all copyrights.. You
cannot copyright a US Military Jacket.
I am not an Attorney nor do I wish to be.. But I do know a little about the
US Military having spent my whole adult life in the Military and going
through every Military school known to man.
I think the bottom line here is that the jacket in question should be made
with all the quality and standards of a " Hero Jacket"

Regards,
Sgt. Hack

Regards!
Indydawg

Yeah, the Indy jacket was a modified A-2 with action pleats and other modifications to the back for freedom of movement, FOM. What seems obvious to me, from the conceptual ideas, modifications to the meeting with B&N is that it was a collaborative effort on the part of many people, not just one. Who was involved...Deb, Wilson's, personnel at WC, SS, NC, Noel, Peter, KK and no doubt a few others, and to claim SOLE AUTHORITY is just wrong! IF these people did not have a vague idea of what they wanted, then how could you hire someone to produce something for you???

Great, now I'm even more anxious for my US Wings to get here