Club Obi Wan

Texan Scott wrote:That's interesting, but we know so little about that jacket and have maybe one photo? Some think it was AD who made the jacket, yes? We do know that the Wilson's were made of cow, right? Since they were unacceptable and therefore expendable, maybe they could have been used as stunt jackets? More leaps I suppose.

No more of a leap than the theory that it's the BW that's the truck jacket, I suppose. Like I said, it's been the prevailing theory that the truck gag jacket is the Wilsons for a long time. I just think it's interesting that Holt said the truck gag jacket looked like an oily cowhide which matched up neatly with my pet theory that maybe the dockside still jacket was the Cooper's (in the oil pull calfskin) and the theory that the BW jacket later became the truck gag jacket.

Of course, the Wilsons were cowhide too, weren't they?

...that's a new term for me....what is 'oil pulled' calf hide?


Cris: ..and it could be. Not discounting it. We just seem to know little about it is all.

_ wrote:Good... Because I have Steven, George, Harrison and Frank in the same professional network site...

He made 2. And I asked about lamb vs. the oil pulled ch. He's certain. I have some custom boots that use opch for the barrels. It could pass for the same hide used for my "authentic lamb" wested. I think y'all are imagining something very different. JMO...

My latest? Tracking down the Hellboy duster from the first film.

"He made 2." That's something I was saying weeks ago in the other thread, that at least two jackets on screen had to come from the same maker or from the exact same patterns....you said I had to be wrong?...

Do the opch (not calf?) barrels of your boots look like shrunken lamb and shrunken lamb with merino striations? I guess not since you say they look like "authentic lamb", which is very different.

I'm not imagining anything very different. Neither was Tony when he examined the jacket that was given to him to copy. So what's up?

As I said, I can see the jacket we see in the Bantu Wind, and subsequent truck drag sequences being made of something other than shrunken lamb.
I can see the Temple of Doom and Last Crusade jackets being something other than lamb.
The jacket(s) though that have been attributed to Neil Cooper in Raiders? not so much.

Maybe someone can give Neil access to the discussions here.


edited for spelink

I could see them making 2 Cooper's, a main jacket and a back up just in case. He must have delivered it later?

Texan Scott wrote:I could see them making 2 Cooper's, a main jacket and a back up just in case. He must have delivered it later?

Why not at the same time? there are two jackets mainly used throughout that are basically identical (other than leather markings/grain

Ok, this is excellent. Thanls for giving me something to hang my hat on _!

That was the last bit of information I needed to know to idenify pretty much every jacket in the movie. There was one sticking point and that cleared it up. In short, Crismans and Holt are correct from the stuff I (with some help!) had come up with that is the continuation of my "Tracking jackets..." thread. Will post up some more to lay it all out in the next week or so.

_, darn I wanted him to sign my Cooper 'The Fonz' jacket....

Could you try to work in asking about 'patterns' for what he made for Raiders, and Temple of Doom? Does he still have them?

I still think he used the shrunken lambskin, and calf on something else......hopefully it will come to him

So based on this new information the shrunken lamb that Mr Nowak got was not a hero....?

If calf was the leather that could explain why I (and some others) never felt the on screen jacket had a shrunken lamb look.

Both are SA. Earlier I theorised that there were only 3 jackets used. But I have had my suspicions since that there were 4.

The 2 _ mentioned by Cooper, and 2 in shrunken lamb by Leather Concessionaires. Long story short, the 2 Coopers did not see anywhere near as much screen time. My earlier mistake was trying to reconcile that there was only 1 Cooper. _ noting there were 2 clears a LOT up.

And yes, I can provide a detailed breakdown of why I think this soon.

Oh but it does matter _.

and CM, by now you should know what you see on screen does look like shrunken lamb. (although I'd agree, the Bantu Wind dockside jacket does not, and in some of the truck scenes a jacket does not) You've seen enough photos here, enough of shrunken lamb jackets to know a photo can make them look smooth when they in fact are anything but.

The jacket Tony Nowak had was a hero, confirmed previously by _, and said to be made by Neil Cooper by _. The difference now is this new revelation it was made of Calf skin.
Tony Nowak had the original in his hands and examined it in minute detail, he said it was shrunken lamb, without a doubt in his mind. "The skin is what it is."

RC, Tony wasn't given the Cooper. None of the info fits - all of it now points the other way. The slippage of info is the incorrect assumption that one of the 2 Cooper made was one of the 2 jackets we refer to the most.

Let me break it all down in the near future because it will take a bit to lay it out. But this is actually one of the few occasions where we can be happy that pretty much most people are correct.

Long story short, the thing is that Tony's jacket is still the closest thing we'll have to the "real" hero. As one of the 4, short of the actual "Flying wing / hero", which got squibbed and has been MIA (if not destroyed), it's the best one to have access to as it will share most similarities to it's "brother", from cut to hide used.

OK, putting NC aside as the maker of the 'Hawaii', it still makes sense to me that the two main jackets on screen, the ones with the shrunken lamb texture (that CM doesn't see) and that are basically identical in pattern, would have been made by one maker, whoever that is. 'AD' maybe? 'AD' the shirt maker could have made jackets that were 'not made right'.

NC as the maker of the Bantu Wind scene jacket, and at least one truck scene jacket, which do not have the same texture as the Hawaii or flying wing jackets, could be this 'Calf skin.

See _, it does matter

Could it be that the irregular calfskin jacket had developed in 25 years an even more irregular surface, resembling that of a shrunken lamb hide?
I'm a painter and teacher of arts and in my world we all know that when a painting ages and it's elements oxidize it is very difficult to distinguish varnish from oil, and even some pigments from others. Time does wonders, and things become harder to explain even for the greatest experts.

Just my two cents...

I'm not trying to say Tony was wrong. RC's point seems to me perfect. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if finally things turned out to be just a trick of time.

Yojimbo, I was wirtting this when you posted your latest comentary. Looking foward to seeing those pictures

Rask 25 years doesn't come into it, it's also what is seen on film, and the jackets then were not 'old'.

While leather may get dry and flaky when old, and may develop wrinkles through use, I can't see it developing the texture and ribbiness of shrunken lamb by just collecting dust over 25 to 30 years.
There would be no 'old' smooth jackets

I appreciate what you say about paint, I don't see it necessarily relating to leather unless the leather was varnished etc.

RCSignals wrote:Oh but it does matter _.

and CM, by now you should know what you see on screen does look like shrunken lamb. (although I'd agree, the Bantu Wind dockside jacket does not, and in some of the truck scenes a jacket does not) ."

RC passionate as always, but I never saw what you think I did. And what I looked at on this site never changed that. I'm not saying I am right, I'm just reporting what I see. I did sometimes see a few screen captures that looked kind of shrunken lamb, but that's as far as I'll go. I have seen captures that make the Indy jacket look like cow, horse, lamb, kangaroo and elephant hide. As for the Batu wind jacket - I've never cared about it much - it's a fleeting appearance so, really, who cares? Ditto for the truck stunt material.

RCSignals wrote:I appreciate what you say about paint, I don't see it necessarily relating to leather unless the leather was varnished etc.

Just an example to show how time and ageing (no matter what material is we are talking about) always complicate things. Of course the difference is clear. I was referring to, at least, 100 year old paintings, and here we are talking about just a 25-30 year old jacket (although everybody that saw it assured it was in very bad shape). Lets say that I made a 'very much exaggerated' comparison
Yet I wouldn't rule out completely what I said

Ok, so please post some shots of calfskin that looks closer to what we see in detail on screen than shrunken lamb. I'm ready to be convinced. For now, I can see 2 specific, crusty looking jackets that could be what you describe, but neither is what you could possibly call the "hero" jacket.

_....before you go....THANK YOU!!!!

High Regards!
Indydawg

This whole thing kinda reminds me of the scene in "Monty Python and the Life of Brian"

What have the Roman's ever done for us?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

(stands up and clears throat)

Umm...yep...that pretty much sums THAT up!

Indydawg

_ wrote:Lord have mercy...

The Hawaii jacket and the imam jacket are Cooper. Steven oversaw the process. It is not going to be some crusty piece of garbage. That is simply stupid... With that and the "genome" project...

I'm breakng my own rule that I set for myself the week Tony passed. People are going to be handed gold and will treat it like @#$%. The answers are simple - if y'all screw it up then that's your problem...

Back to my happy cave I go...

Sorry _, I don't believe Tony was mistaken. He was more than sure the jacket he had was made of lamb, and not just lamb but shrunken processed lamb. So much so he offered his 'bet' challenge even. Remember that?
Tony examined that jacket in minute detail.
The man knew his leather, and he knew what he was talking about.
We have seen long posts here by others who took it upon themselves to further research this, that information was clear, the 'shrunken' process creates a unique effect, and it is only effective on lamb/sheep hides, with different effects produced from different breeds/'families' of the animal.
If Cooper made the Hawaii jacket, he must be mistaken about making that one out of calfskin.

Sounds like SS basically worked around the "exclusive" contract set in place by B&N and with NC, produced these jackets...a 'keep it to yourself' approach.

...lack of faith in DN abilities at the time. Had to get the jacket made and made right. some measure of uncertainty....

One has to wonder about working around the B&N contract, since it was said Neil Cooper made the jacket at B&N.
Certainly it was done working around DN.

Oh for the love of Pete!

Neil made the jackets. Neil says he used calfskin.

End of story.
Period.
Done.

This is like if someone got ahold of a screen-used Adventurebilt and said, "Gee, I'm pretty sure this is a rabbit hat" and Steve came out and said, "Nope, the felt used for the film hats was beaver" and.....no one believed him! The man that made the hat is telling us what felt he used. That's the end of the story.

For all the times the comment is made "man, if we could only ask the people that were actually there at the time" no one seems to appreciate when the answer comes from, wait for it, the people that were actually there at the time.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jeff wrote:Oh for the love of Pete!

Neil made the jackets. Neil says he used calfskin.

End of story.
Period.
Done.

This is like if someone got ahold of a screen-used Adventurebilt and said, "Gee, I'm pretty sure this is a rabbit hat" and Steve came out and said, "Nope, the felt used for the film hats was beaver" and.....no one believed him! The man that made the hat is telling us what felt he used. That's the end of the story.

For all the times the comment is made "man, if we could only ask the people that were actually there at the time" no one seems to appreciate when the answer comes from, wait for it, the people that were actually there at the time.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

We have been told all sorts of information by 'people that were actually there at the time' that has since been thrown out.
Actually we haven't been told anything directly by 'people that were actually there at the time' have we.

Tony Nowak was 'actually there at the time' he had one of the jackets in question, in his own hands, examining it in great detail for days. He said, to me directly, and directly to others who are here, and in posts related from him directly here, that without a doubt, the jacket was lamb, specifically shrunken lamb.

No one is questioning at this point that Neil Cooper made at least two jackets for Raiders of the Lost Arc.

Indiana jeff,

I agree 100% with you. We should take only the people who are involved first hand. No 2nd hand accounts. Would this not mean we should take in account what peter states over any that was gotten 2nd hand?

But we can question what the hide was? Even if the man himself says that's what it was? NO disrespect to Big Tony, but I will take the word of the maker over anybody else's. If Cooper says it was calf skin...it was calf skin! I don't think that lambs have the exclusive right to striations. What are the striations but essentially stretch marks. This was irregular oil-pulled calf skin. Pulled, pulled...pulled as in stretched. Tony was there and had the jacket in hand, NC was there and had the hide in hand before it ever was a jacket. Lambs are not the only ones with striations. Ever seen a fat lady in a bathing suit? Case in point...

Travis

BendingOak wrote: Would this not mean we should take in account what peter states over any that was gotten 2nd hand?

I think this is directly attributable to the integrity of the person who is giving the account. We could theoretically put up a poll about the trustworthiness of the aforementioned party, and we know what the overwhelming response would be. Now, to my knowledge,...let me say that again, to my knowledge, NC does not share that disfavorable light. NC has nothing to gain by stating what he is stating, nor does _ by relaying it. Matter of fact, no one has been a more vocal defender of TN than _. However, it seems now to me, that Occam's razor has reared its logical head on us again, the simplest answer is probably the correct one. NC made two jackets for RoLA. This is becoming widely accepted. NC says he used calf skin, he made the jackets. Ergo...

Travis

NO disrespect to Big Tony, but I will take the word of the maker over anybody else's. If Cooper says it was calf skin...it was calf skin!

Not that I care, but if given a rabbit hat and a beaver hat, I could tell you which was which. If Tony said it was the lamb, it would be hard for me to question his appraisel. Afterall, I am not a maker of leather jackets.

I would have to defer to the jacket maker. The question is, just how hard is it to distinquish between calf and the pre shrunk lamb? Does it jump out at cha? Or is the difference so small that it requires a judgement call? I don't know, just asking.

Also, I assume you guys are talking about the Raiders jackets Tony copied for his own Raiders offering. I know where one came from, but what about the other? The one that I know about came from a collector in the film biz overseas. And acquired from B and N years ago. That one was lamb, or so he told me. Where did Tony get the other one? And I wonder now if they matched in pattern and leather? I never asked.

And with all due respect, when Tony examined the jacket it was decades later. I've done some leatherwork and handled a lot of tack and I will say that 20 - 30 years of care and use or 20 -30 years of storage and neglect can both make a piece into something that has little resemblance to what it was when new. Leather is a "live" material, like felt, and it responds to it's experience and environment. I don't claim to be expert about this, I've never bothered to take a magnifying glass to a piece or to definitively identify the kind of critter it was made from, but in my experience the texture, colour, weight, density, thickness, elasticity, even the dimensions of length and width will often have changed over time.

LJ

Hollowpond wrote:But we can question what the hide was? Even if the man himself says that's what it was? NO disrespect to Big Tony, but I will take the word of the maker over anybody else's. If Cooper says it was calf skin...it was calf skin! I don't think that lambs have the exclusive right to striations. What are the striations but essentially stretch marks. This was irregular oil-pulled calf skin. Pulled, pulled...pulled as in stretched. Tony was there and had the jacket in hand, NC was there and had the hide in hand before it ever was a jacket. Lambs are not the only ones with striations. Ever seen a fat lady in a bathing suit? Case in point...

Travis

Does that equally apply to the word of Peter?

Lambskin is lambskin, calfskin is calfskin. They are not the same.

There is no doubt Neil Cooper made jackets. He probably made one or two out of calfskin. He probably also made one or two out of shrunken processed lamb. Neil Cooper did work with that kind of lamb back in 1980.

Search fro some calfskin, oil pulled, irregular, whichever, and compare it to shrunken process lamb. You'll have a long search to begin with.

The Imams jacket and the Hawaii jacket ARE mutually exclusive. You don't have to be there to see these with your own eyes if you know where to look. There are many indicators.

Add to those Tony's call on the hide and I'm pretty sure the Imams jacket is the Cooper, but Hawaii is not.

Occam's Razor DOES apply. That's what I'm saying. But at the moment people are taking 2 and 2 and getting 5.

Will post soon.

RCSignals wrote:

Does that equally apply to the word of Peter?

Hollowpond wrote:

BendingOak wrote: Would this not mean we should take in account what peter states over any that was gotten 2nd hand?

I think this is directly attributable to the integrity of the person who is giving the account. We could theoretically put up a poll about the trustworthiness of the aforementioned party, and we know what the overwhelming response would be. Now, to my knowledge,...let me say that again, to my knowledge, NC does not share that disfavorable light. NC has nothing to gain by stating what he is stating, nor does _ by relaying it. Matter of fact, no one has been a more vocal defender of TN than _. However, it seems now to me, that Occam's razor has reared its logical head on us again, the simplest answer is probably the correct one. NC made two jackets for RoLA. This is becoming widely accepted. NC says he used calf skin, he made the jackets. Ergo...

Travis

Travis

Also, I assume you guys are talking about the Raiders jackets Tony copied for his own Raiders offering. I know where one came from, but what about the other? The one that I know about came from a collector in the film biz overseas. And acquired from B and N years ago. That one was lamb, or so he told me. Where did Tony get the other one? And I wonder now if they matched in pattern and leather? I never asked.

Steve, if I'm not mistaken, that jacket wasn't actually one used in the film but was an older Wested that the person really liked and wanted a copy of. The person who owned that jacket is faststreetsofhongkong here so I'm sure he can attest to whether I'm right on that or not.

The jacket Tony was given to copy came from Lucas and was delivered to Tony by Frank Marshall (again, if I've got my story straight) and is the one being discussed as to what scenes it was used in and what leather it was made of.

The problem is the timing of the two jackets. The old Wested came in around the same time as the one Tony received from Lucas. Pictures were put up of both and this caused quite a bit of confusion until the details were worked out.

Maybe too, I should aver that I don't give a north bound rat's south end what hide it was made of. I am also positive that stating as much after opining so much, will result in a collective, Well what the heck are you doing in here then!?!?!? . It just seems that if someone made something, their account would trump all others.

Here's an oil pull Wested made a couple of months ago. Nice leather.

Long John Tinfoil wrote:And with all due respect, when Tony examined the jacket it was decades later. I've done some leatherwork and handled a lot of tack and I will say that 20 - 30 years of care and use or 20 -30 years of storage and neglect can both make a piece into something that has little resemblance to what it was when new. Leather is a "live" material, like felt, and it responds to it's experience and environment. I don't claim to be expert about this, I've never bothered to take a magnifying glass to a piece or to definitively identify the kind of critter it was made from, but in my experience the texture, colour, weight, density, thickness, elasticity, even the dimensions of length and width will often have changed over time.

LJ

that's fine. Your opinion.

I'll take the word of Tony Nowak. With all due respect.

Kt Templar wrote:Here's an oil pull Wested made a couple of months ago. Nice leather.

Is that oil pulled cowhide, or oil pulled calf skin?

Travis

I could buy that sort of hide as the Bantu Wind / Imams jacket, but not as the main ones. I've posted my thoughts / evidence as promised here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46856

Hollowpond wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:Here's an oil pull Wested made a couple of months ago. Nice leather.

Is that oil pulled cowhide, or oil pulled calf skin?

Travis

Travis, kt clearly said it is an "oil pull Wested"

RCSignals wrote:
Travis, kt clearly said it is an "oil pull Wested"

You're such a wag!

It's bovine, and fairly thin, I'd hazard a guess that it is a youngish animal, he was aiming for a lamb sort of drape.

thats that temple of doom right? the one he distressed.

didnt you say it was pretty thick last time we spoke about it. it was thick and heavy but you were surprised it draped that well.

In hand the leather on it's own is about 1/2 of the thickess of their normal cowhide. Made into a jacket it feels more substantial then I'd imagined it would. But still drapes well. It might be cow with the reverse shaved to make it thinner.

Kt Templar wrote:

RCSignals wrote:
Travis, kt clearly said it is an "oil pull Wested"

You're such a wag!

It's bovine, and fairly thin, I'd hazard a guess that it is a youngish animal, he was aiming for a lamb sort of drape.

But calf skin and cowhide are very different, are they not? That's what I was asking. I mean, veal and steak are very different...

Travis

yes, they are different.

calf is more lamb like but stronger. cow is thicker and rugger. cowhide has a a sligth different grain too.

That's what I though Holt. Thanks! That's what makes me think that this is so plausible. Calf, it seems to me, is a lot like lamb, and you add that plus time and it seems that it would be difficult to differentiate between the two. JMHO! I am also just beginning to wrap my tiny little mind around the fact that this argument is less about whether NC made two jackets and what they were made of, and more about whether TN got the jacket NC made or something else. To me the most important thing is the linkage of NC and the fact that we now know definitively what one of the jackets, with significant film time, if not the main hero itself, was made from.

Travis

yes, its lamb like but it is not lamb. you can tell the difference between the two.

at least that is what I have been told by a guy who works with leather for his daily bread.

I personally believe that the jacket Tony got was lambskin. the man obviously knew his leather. but of course there can have been made a mistake and confused it with lamb. its possible. he was only human. but IMO I doubt it.

again, this is just my opinion. take it for what it is worth.

Indiana Holt wrote:yes, they are different.

calf is more lamb like but stronger. cow is thicker and rugger. cowhide has a a sligth different grain too.

That's how I would describe the calfskin of my Todd's Custom. I've worn it hard for around 3 years now, and the calfskin has definately taken on the rugged Raiders look I always wanted. The calfskin is supple, yet, pretty tough stuff...

Steve, if I'm not mistaken, that jacket wasn't actually one used in the film but was an older Wested that the person really liked and wanted a copy of. The person who owned that jacket is faststreetsofhongkong here so I'm sure he can attest to whether I'm right on that or not.

The jacket Tony was given to copy came from Lucas and was delivered to Tony by Frank Marshall (again, if I've got my story straight) and is the one being discussed as to what scenes it was used in and what leather it was made

Thanks for clearing that up! As I said, I should have paid more attention to the conversation at the time. Yes, that's the guy. I thought he had mentioned B and N but my memory isn't the best.

So, the second jacket was actually the real deal. I wish now I had pulled the trigger on Tony's Raiders jacket. I was gonna wait.........and never imagined the guy passing when he did. Fedora