Club Obi Wan

By Schiffs definition, the only difference between the two styles in the slightly higher weave count per inch on the "hatband" grosgrain.

Yeah, and this reminds me of Montecristi hats. Once you move up to a certain weave per inch count, the prices sky rocket. Now on Montecristis this is understandable, since these are hand weaved. But, a machine makes ribbon.......


I wonder John, if our ribbon is so hard to work with due to it being pure rayon? It is alot limper than what LLS had run. And I might add that what LLS had run is really easy to work with for me personally. But if the hat has taper, I have to swirl it to get the top edge shorter than the bottom so it will fit the hat. I don't have to do with with the ribbon I use, the expensive stuff. I can just pull my ribbon tighter to fit the hat, as it is stretchier than the Schiff brand. At least on their 705 pattern. Not sure what this is due to, but perhaps it is because it is pure rayon.

For any of you guys that need a good Indy color ribbon, LLS has it. He had the color matched from a piece of my own ribbon. And it is easy to work with as well, which helps if you don't have alot of experience in installing ribbon on hats. Fedora

I think it's the rayon.

I'm not sure but I think that it. 100% rayon.

Yeah, LLS had it analyzed at Schiff. Pure rayon is what we use John. Which is one reason it costs more, but still, it's ludicrous what these folks charge!! It'a a racket IMO. A rip off, not for the ribbon, but for its price! I reckon they know its the ribbon used on the HJ hat supplied to the other Indy films, and use that as the reason. That is the only reason that makes sense. Even my collection of vintage ribbon was cheaper, and it was pretty high. But, glad we can source it. Heck, I don't even know who makes it in Europe. I just tell Marc when I need more and he ships it to me.

Fedora wrote:

I'm not sure but I think that it. 100% rayon.

Yeah, LLS had it analyzed at Schiff. Pure rayon is what we use John. Which is one reason it costs more, but still, it's ludicrous what these folks charge!! It'a a racket IMO. A rip off, not for the ribbon, but for its price! I reckon they know its the ribbon used on the HJ hat supplied to the other Indy films, and use that as the reason. That is the only reason that makes sense. Even my collection of vintage ribbon was cheaper, and it was pretty high. But, glad we can source it. Heck, I don't even know who makes it in Europe. I just tell Marc when I need more and he ships it to me.

I could save a lot of money by having it copied exactly but we are talking about a very, very large amount and a lot of cash to lay out at ounce. I would do it but there is nothing like saying you have "the Indy ribbon" not a copy but "the ribbon"

This conversations reminds me of a line from an old Hank Jr. song:

"Hey, just because the old is good/
Don't mean the new is bad"

I would sell my ribbon if someone wants some. I would also replace ribbon if someone wants to send the hat. Didn't mean for this to turn into a plug, but we have all be in this spot before. I wanted access to accurate ribbon. So I invested in a bunch.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, John. I do think this ribbon is the best USA souce. Cotton and all.
Steve, glad this ribbon meets your seal of approval and I am glad to hear the sample I sent you has been field tested by you.

PS. I have not rested on this matter, either. Still got things up the sleeve.
LLS

Never said the new was bad just that the old is the real deal and is something special. Not trying to take away from what you have.

would sell my ribbon if someone wants some. I would also replace ribbon if someone wants to send the hat. Didn't mean for this to turn into a plug, but we have all be in this spot before. I wanted access to accurate ribbon. So I invested in a bunch.

Well there ya go folks. If you need color accurate Raiders ribbon, we now know who will glady sell you some. And he will even do the work for ya. LLS, I am plugging for ya! Hey, I liked your special run so much, I installed it on one of my own hats. The ribbon had salt stains on it pretty bad, and I used yours. From 4 feet away, I can't tell the difference in ribbon material. So, it looks really good.

There may come a time when what we get is no longer available, and if so, LLS will have color accurate ribbon locked up. I think that was a very wise move my friend. And glad you like me. I want to stay on your good side! Fedora

BendingOak wrote:The ribbon is something very special.

And I wonder out loud how many THOUSANDS of feet you have to order at a time?
Don't answer that! That is nobody's bees-wax.

Manufacturers won't bother with the set up costs and hassle of it all to burn 6' of vintage ribbon for your hobby hatmaker. No, they want you to order in bulk.


A few cases in point:

1) that carpet on the stairs in That 70's Show required a special run and it cost the show over $20,000.00.

2) Where I work, we want special gaskets for our product....but our vendor won't run any unless we commit to a few THOUSAND feet.

It is the nature of manufacturing.

Just an FYI for everyone. I'm working on SA looking ribbon that I can sell to anyone who wants and can use it as a replacement ribbon. Im working on a project that I might need more ribbon but don't want to use the expensive stuff. It will be better than anything that's out on the market except for what goes on my Indy hats. Stay tuned

I had a special run of VERY dark brown ribbon in 39mm width run. It is exact.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've been looking into ribbons lately after this thread popped up to double-check what I use. Llooking at vintage stuff, stuff I get from my supplier, and stuff from an Adventurebilt, I can't tell the difference:

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu16 ... arison.jpg

Same weave / feel / tone / sheen / colour. Even blowing it up under magnification. I didn't realise it was that special - maybe I'm just lucky with where I get my stuff from...?

I'm sorry but you can not tell by photos. Just like you can't tell what quality a hat is in just a photo.


I have seen most of everyones offering when it comes to their Indy ribbon and there is a difference.

lee, I have seen your ribbon and the color is good but it is off, as is the pattern and weight. I would say the mixture is off a little as well. Don't get me wrong is good but not exact.

The stuff marc me and john use is pure rayon. And you don't see pure rayon much these days. Schiff or Ofray makes it, but on special runs. I don't know of any stock ribbon except ours that is pure rayon.

Fedora wrote:The stuff marc me and john use is pure rayon. And you don't see pure rayon much these days. Schiff or Ofray makes it, but on special runs. I don't know of any stock ribbon except ours that is pure rayon.

That is correct. LLS was a special run (not stock) and that has cotton in his ribbon. There is only one place in the world that makes 100% rayon ribbon like this. It's vintage quality stuff here. It's very special. Most people will not tell the difference from a few feet away but get up close and a good eye will see the difference. It's not a Hugh diffenrce but its all about details.

BendingOak wrote:I'm sorry but you can not tell by photos. Just like you can't tell what quality a hat is in just a photo.

It is a good thing the people I sell my hats to actually get both the hat and the ribbon, then; not just photos!

I wasn't talking about photos - rather, what it looks to the naked eye AS WELL AS magnified; but as this is the internet I am limited to showing them as such and explaining. I didn't say my source wasn't vintage.

Yojimbo Jones wrote:

BendingOak wrote:I'm sorry but you can not tell by photos. Just like you can't tell what quality a hat is in just a photo.

It is a good thing the people I sell my hats to actually get both the hat and the ribbon, then; not just photos!

I wasn't talking about photos - rather, what it looks to the naked eye AS WELL AS magnified; but as this is the internet I am limited to showing them as such and explaining. I didn't say my source wasn't vintage.

I never said what your ribbon was. You can't compare mine and yours from photos. That's what I was stating. I have a supply of vintage ribbon that I use for non Indy custom hats. I have had my share of the stuff. The Indy ribbon could fool many people thinking it's vintage. It's made in the same way. Personally the duff is hard o work with but I use it because it is "the Indy ribbon" and that the point. It's not a copy, it's not close it's the real deal. I think that was the point of hhis thread. Is why " the ribbon" was held so closely by this who have it.

Understood - that's cool.

What I'm saying is having looked - in the flesh - at both an era-specific Herbert Johnson as well as the ribbons you guys use, AND with a super-zoomed in camera looking at the thread pattern, I can see no difference to what I use on the hats that I sell. How I lucked out, I'm not sure.

Yojimbo Jones wrote:Understood - that's cool.

What I'm saying is having looked - in the flesh - at both an era-specific Herbert Johnson as well as the ribbons you guys use, AND with a super-zoomed in camera looking at the thread pattern, I can see no difference to what I use on the hats that I sell. How I lucked out, I'm not sure.

Just because the pattern is the same zoomed in on a camera doesn't mean there is no difference. Some times all the zoomed in camera , computer , and screen shots can't tell you everything. I'm having this ribbon analyzed and so far it does in fact have some things different from modern ribbon. I will have all the results in a a week or so.


Its funny how everyone jumped into a thread asking about why the AB screen used ribbon wasn't sold to everyone to a thread about how their own ribbon is exactly the same.

Well that seems a little unfair. Do people other than yourself, Steve & David not have a right to chime in with their viewpoint on Charlie's question? Lee clarified what he had and I felt that I may as well clarify what I had too as I have had a couple of customers ask me via PM.

In any event, if you are saying a camera is somehow not valid, why is a chemical analysis? It's not like people are viewing their hats through a microscope or spectrometer. To me at least I could say they SHOT the MOVIE with a camera. Looking right on a camera is VERY important for a bunch of reasons, but I digress...

All I'm saying is that this could be a non-issue. If in every other way - not just looking through a lens - the ribbon myself or Lee or whoever offers on their hats appears and behaves the same - and could well BE the same - then what does it matter? I get this is clearly a thread about the ribbon, but if you end up talking about microscopic / chemical analysis that could still yield results the same as fabric I have got for all we know, it's all getting a bit weird.

Right from the start you are wrong.

No one but steve, marc and myself can answer the question why " the screen used Indy ribbon" isn't just put on any hat or sold for someone to put on themselves.

You and others didn't jump in here stating your opinion on why our ribbon isn't sold?????

That's your opinion. But the original question was:

Bruce Wayne wrote:IS there any reason why it is such a closely guarded secret? I have talked to a couple of the hatters here & at the Lounge & neither of them are willing to sell any ribbon for me to put on myself. I am just curious what the big deal is regarding the ribbon?

Thanx!!!
Charlie

Seems pretty open for discussion to me, but anyway...

Okay, boys, no need to perpetuate a wizzing match.

Do people other than yourself, Steve & David not have a right to chime in with their viewpoint on Charlie's question?

Speaking for myself, you do.
Ribbon is made up of very simple elements. The "official ribbon" is made of 100% rayon. Other ribbon is made of cotton/rayon blend. Other ribbon is polyester (que the disco ball ). Rayon and polyester are synthetic materials. Made in a lab through chemical processes. Polyester is the very plastic feeling. Rayon feels like fiber. Cotton is a natural fiber. Now, unlike the difference between beaver and rabbit felt, the use of rayon vs cotton/rayon blend is very slight. I mean, the processing of felting has undergone changes in a hundred years. Processing thread and weaving it into fabrics are relatively the same. Steve has referred to how different each ribbon material is to work with. That is the difference. Kind of a heat thing.
Schiff Mills have been in production since 1917. There stands a great chance that the vintage ribbon folks are using out there came from the very same mills that are still working today. Schiff switched to using cotton/rayon blend back in the '40s. The facility that makes the "official ribbon" uses 100% rayon. If they switch one day, the "official ribbon" switches to. But it won't change much. I mean, I wouldn't through down my hat , shake my fist at the universe, then, drop to the ground and pound the earth, and stare up at the Statue of Liberty asking "WHY DID YOU CHANGE" and ride off on my horse with my girl along the shore line.

LLS

I guess every thread is open season now.

Local Land Surveyor wrote: If they switch one day, the "official ribbon" switches to. But it won't change much. I mean, I wouldn't through down my hat , shake my fist at the universe, then, drop to the ground and pound the earth, and stare up at the Statue of Liberty asking "WHY DID YOU CHANGE" and ride off on my horse with my girl along the shore line.

LLS

Possibly the most awesome (definitly the most entertaining) summation of the whole "official ribbon question" ever. Thanks for the history, context, and the laugh.

Local Land Surveyor wrote:

Do people other than yourself, Steve & David not have a right to chime in with their viewpoint on Charlie's question?

Speaking for myself, you do.
Ribbon is made up of very simple elements. The "official ribbon" is made of 100% rayon. Other ribbon is made of cotton/rayon blend. Other ribbon is polyester (que the disco ball ). Rayon and polyester are synthetic materials. Made in a lab through chemical processes. Polyester is the very plastic feeling. Rayon feels like fiber. Cotton is a natural fiber. Now, unlike the difference between beaver and rabbit felt, the use of rayon vs cotton/rayon blend is very slight. I mean, the processing of felting has undergone changes in a hundred years. Processing thread and weaving it into fabrics are relatively the same. Steve has referred to how different each ribbon material is to work with. That is the difference. Kind of a heat thing.
Schiff Mills have been in production since 1917. There stands a great chance that the vintage ribbon folks are using out there came from the very same mills that are still working today. Schiff switched to using cotton/rayon blend back in the '40s. The facility that makes the "official ribbon" uses 100% rayon. If they switch one day, the "official ribbon" switches to. But it won't change much. I mean, I wouldn't through down my hat , shake my fist at the universe, then, drop to the ground and pound the earth, and stare up at the Statue of Liberty asking "WHY DID YOU CHANGE" and ride off on my horse with my girl along the shore line.

LLS

I like LLS's way of looking at things. You know, real old vintage rayon was actually based upon wood, somehow. Later on they changed what they used to produce it. Or so Art Fawcett told me a few years ago.

For me personally, in regards to an Indy fedora, as long as the color is right, I don't really care. I hate paying what they charge for this stuff, i.e. what we use, its a rip off. Even if it is rayon. But, since I used this ribbon on the film hats, I will forever be tied to it. I wish I would have had what LLS had made at Schiff, as it is the right color, and easier to work with. Plus, mucho cheaper to buy. And it is good ribbon. And if used in the film hats,(CS) I could use it now. But I guess at least the ribbon has continuity with the films, although the LC ribbon looks to be lighter colored. Probably a different ribbon completely than the Raiders ribbon.

At least there are other sources now for the darker brown ribbon! When I started, it was impossible to find any, unless you found some vintage on ebay, or knew you could have a special run done, like LLS did. When Marc found the source, it was a happy day for me, until I actually had to pay what they charge! I mean, I love being able to get it, but the prices really gets my goat. It's the principle. No, it's the price!!

And anyways, most folks don't really put a microscope on the ribbon, as long as the color is right. To me, that is the most important thing. Fedora

I agree with you steve as long as the final is correct who cares but I would rather have " the stuff" and pay much more for it than have something less. Would I rather pay less than a buck a yard for ribbon at shiffs that nearly 20 bucks a yard. Oh heck yeah but It's all in the details. I thought that's what we were all about (gearheads) The other thing is, it does make a small difference of what it is made of. If it didn't matter. Than it should not matter what felt is used for the body of the hat. The thread count is lower and the material is different. It re-acts differently than a rayon/cotton. If it didn't it wouldn't be a pain in but to work with. You can feel the weightnof it just by holding it.

I do agree they are asking more than they should but they are the only ones working in pure rayon. Shiff won't and can't as far as I been told. I will get a better answer soon. I didn't want to buy their stock ribbon with a screen accurate color. I want the whole thing not just part. I'm sorry but I can feel and see a difference when holding it.

I'm having it analyzed to see what's really going on with it. I don't trust what I have been told about it. I will keep everyone posted.

I do agree they are asking more than they should but they are the only ones working in pure rayon. Shiff won't and can't as far as I been told. I will get a better answer soon. I didn't want to buy their stock ribbon with a screen accurate color. I want the whole thing not just part. I'm sorry but I can feel and see a difference when holding it.

Hey John, I bought pure rayon ribbon a couple years ago, over runs, from a company. So, someone here made that pure rayon ribbon. Might be Ofray. So, I know someone does make it. This company that sells over runs, sent me a sample pack of around 6 or 7 colors in various widths. They had a New Sudan Brown (Schiff sells a Sudan brown) and the new sudan was much darker than the sudan. I figured that Shiff make it, since they used the Sudan in denoting the color. But perhaps not. That leaves Ofray. If you need the name of the company that sent me the pure rayon, give me a holler.

Fedora wrote:

I do agree they are asking more than they should but they are the only ones working in pure rayon. Shiff won't and can't as far as I been told. I will get a better answer soon. I didn't want to buy their stock ribbon with a screen accurate color. I want the whole thing not just part. I'm sorry but I can feel and see a difference when holding it.

Hey John, I bought pure rayon ribbon a couple years ago, over runs, from a company. So, someone here made that pure rayon ribbon. Might be Ofray. So, I know someone does make it. This company that sells over runs, sent me a sample pack of around 6 or 7 colors in various widths. They had a New Sudan Brown (Schiff sells a Sudan brown) and the new sudan was much darker than the sudan. I figured that Shiff make it, since they used the Sudan in denoting the color. But perhaps not. That leaves Ofray. If you need the name of the company that sent me the pure rayon, give me a holler.

Ofray is a no go but I will give you a call.