Unsolved mystery: Keppler and the Wested/Martin Grace link

[DeWayne]

As for the variances in a few older Westeds, here's a thread I made a year ago. I just fixed all the links, and the pictures they link to are very big.

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... 64#p532264

[CM]

Thing is, and just saying this as a side comment and nothing more....isn't that the charm of a custom hand made jacket? No two are alike? Just a thought.

Regards! Michaelson

I get you there M. There is something nice to that idea. Each one special in it's own way. Not just that, but the idea that everything must be exact or identical is more of a mass production ethos, not that of a craftsperson.

Nevertheless, I won't forget that sinking feeling when I realised my Wested didn't look enough like the film jacket to warrant the claim that Peter had the original patterns. I don't mind variations - not happy with completely different.

[Satipo]

If you look back and re read all of that from the time, you will see that it was not necessary for G to have sent anything but only to have asked for an exact duplicate. In the end that is what G received.

I guess my mind is stuck on this post by G, where it seemed that Tony was not familiar with the hero pocket style we all like, only those of Slydini's.

Mr. Nowak and i went through the pocket flaps in quite some detail. the jacket that he has on hand has slydini's pocket flaps from what he described.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34025&p=495139&hilit=nowak#p495139

G was incorrect in that post. You are concentrating on one post and taking it out of context of all of the discussion. Keep reading.
I have also talked to Tony extensively, and those pockets he put on Slydini's jacket were his own design. You know full well the story of Slydini's jacket and Tony adding details to improve it (because the original had so many mistakes in it's construction) yet you are stuck on that one post of G's.

Yes, I have read it all and, yes, I am familiar with the story of Tony making what he perceived to be improvements to the original ... I provided a link to the original post for those who wish to read the whole discussion. My point of confusion specifically concerns that moment in time and that phone call, and is simply this: I am confused as to why, during a detailed discussion about pocket flaps where very specific detail changes were being requested, Tony apparently made no indication of the fact that he had already seen the style of pockets G was describing on the original jacket he'd had in hand, but referred only to a jacket featuring the same pocket flap style as Slydini's, which you state is actually his own design. Considering Tony is clearly skilled at paying attention to detail, I think it's reasonable to expect that the penny would have dropped at some point during that conversation, and that Tony would have thought to mention the original pocket flap design he'd seen firsthand and decided to improve upon.

[RCSignals]

You have never talked to Tony on the telephone have you.

[Satipo]

You have never talked to Tony on the telephone have you.

Not yet, but maybe one day, although I hope to go there in person.

[Satipo]

Don't muddy things with posts taken out of context, please. We've already warned about that.

No warnings necessary. The post is perfectly in context for illustrating why my personal confusion extends beyond TN's numbering system, but of course it can be removed if the mods feel it confuses things here.

[Satipo]

Don't muddy things with posts taken out of context, please. We've already warned about that.

No warnings necessary. The post is perfectly in context for illustrating why my personal confusion extends beyond TN's numbering system, but of course it can be removed if the mods feel it confuses things here.

The warning is a caution to making these leaps. I get the confusion. I'm trying to help get past the confusion, not prevent y'all from talking about it…

Understood and appreciated. I'll step back into the shadows now, as I think I've diverted this thread too much already.

[sebas]

Thing is, and just saying this as a side comment and nothing more....isn't that the charm of a custom hand made jacket? No two are alike? Just a thought.

Indeed, Michaelson! While most Indy jackets these days offer standard SA specs it's nice to have one -that while altogether not accurate- still has it's place in commercially-available-Indy jacket history. I've had it for over a decade and still wear it often. It's like an old friend.

Having said that, I realize that the whole point of owning one of these jackets is also knowing that you're wearing a piece of film history on your back. The fact that they're not based on original patterns and that its design is far removed from what was on screen, is a hard pill to swallow, especially when you're led to believe it's the "real Mccoy" upon purchase.

But no, my real question is: Where did Peter get the idea to include the (unusal) inseam sidestrap stitching, attached to the handwarmers (a la David Hack jacket)? I mean, why not simply go with the standard Indy specs there? That's what I find very curious. Any thoughts?

[Holt]

why not go to the source itself and simply ask. non other then him can give a better answer to that...

[sebas]

As for the variances in a few older Westeds, here's a thread I made a year ago. I just fixed all the links, and the pictures they link to are very big.

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... 64#p532264

Thanks for this DeWayne. Those pictures are fantastic. However, it's a pity there isn't further discussion on the side strap placing that RC mentions in your thread.

The fact that these 90s Westeds share direct traits with an unsused Raiders stunt jacket is what I find curious/interesting.

[sebas]

why not go to the source itself and simply ask. non other then him can give a better answer to that...

Roger that, Holt. Good idea. I'll drop Peter a line and report back.

[Michaelson]

..........

Thing is, and just saying this as a side comment and nothing more....isn't that the charm of a custom hand made jacket? No two are alike? Just a thought.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes and no. No two jackets especially 'hand made' will be exactly the same in minutiae detail. They will however share a consistency.
.

Well, see there? They're all brown, made of leather, have zippers and pockets! What more can one ask for?

I'll be out in the Plymouth listening to the radio if you need me....



Regards! Michaelson

[crismans]

But no, my real question is: Where did Peter get the idea to include the (unusal) inseam sidestrap stitching, attached to the handwarmers (a la David Hack jacket)? I mean, why not simply go with the standard Indy specs there? That's what I find very curious. Any thoughts?

I've got a pet theory about that, but hadn't voiced it as I didn't want the flaming torches after me. But, what the heck?

If I recall correctly, _ has told us that someone made the jacket that we see on the Bantu Wind (I really need to remember the name given ), Spielberg wasn't happy with it and had Cooper build what became the hero jacket. But, at an earlier date, I seem to recall that we were told that Kelly Kimball personally watched Peter make the jacket.

Now, before this derails here, let me state that I'm NOT implying that _ has misled us by either intent or accident. Learning the history of this jacket is a maze within a labyrinth, with switchbacks and dead ends galore as you travel through thick fog. What we may think is fact one day, may be proven false later.

What I wonder is this: could Peter have made the Bantu Wind jacket? Spielberg isn't happy with it (by either construction or his, at the time, displeasure with Nadoolman) and has Cooper make what becomes the hero. Leather Concessionaires then is brought back in to make copies of the Cooper jacket.

I'm sure there's some problems with this theory but it does help match up some disparate elements and it could explain why Wested's early jackets have some things in common with the Bantu Wind jacket (placement of straps, etc.).

[sebas]

I'm sure there's some problems with this theory but it does help match up some disparate elements and it could explain why Wested's early jackets have some things in common with the Bantu Wind jacket (placement of straps, etc.).

What you say makes a lot of sense, Crismans. Definitely something to ponder. Another question is: given the strap placement, what connection do the Bantu Wind and David Hack jackets have in terms of their "lineage"?

Like I said, I find it bemusing that Peter would apply these unsual, lesser-known specs on those 90s Wested just "for the heck of it." I mean, he was well aware of the "hero" specs as we can see in that Leather Concessionaries jacket above. Very weird. Having said this, I've emailed him asking him this very question. Let's see what he has to say...

[crismans]

What you say makes a lot of sense, Crismans. Definitely something to ponder. Another question is: given the strap placement, what connection do the Bantu Wind and David Hack jackets have in terms of their "lineage"?

In terms of David Hack's jacket, I really lean toward it being an early Leather Concessionaires jacket. It greatly resembles other LC jackets that I've seen from the period, even down to the leather. Sgt. Hack said he was told that it was an unused Raiders stunt jacket (again, I'm going from memory here), and it might very well be as there could easily be information I'm not privy to that would explain it. But, from my corner of Geekland, it appears to be an early LC.

This was actually one of the ideas that led me to my theory, for if Peter made the Bantu jacket, and Hack's was an early LC, this would explain the similarities. But _ has seen and heard from several sources that AD made the Bantu jacket so the answer must lie somewhere else.

Like I said, I find it bemusing that Peter would apply these unsual, lesser-known specs on those 90s Wested just "for the heck of it." I mean, he was well aware of the "hero" specs as we can see in that Leather Concessionaries jacket above. Very weird. Having said this, I've emailed him asking him this very question. Let's see what he has to say...

I'm really eager to hear what you find out about this, Sebas.

I know now that not everything I was originally told by KK was true, but I've been led to believe she had valid reasons for what she said. There are details that still bother me, but not enough to discard the big picture. I think she may have embellished, which does make me more cautious.

First, _, thanks for the clarifications. That helped me solidify my understanding of the events. As to the quote above, these are my thoughts as well. I think there's a gem in here somewhere once we can figure out exactly what to polish.

[RCSignals]

I think I get what RC meant by the question, but correct me if I'm wrong…

Remember one reason Tony got the job; he gave Bernie what he wanted without arguing about "what was right" in some quixotic way. He listened to what the client "wanted." now we as a group if freakish fans and individuals want what we individually perceive. I read those posts by G and think I hear him doing what we've had to do with Peter - be our own designer.

The correct thing for G to have done was to jet say "copy it.". Nothng more. Tony's customer service is what's at play here, not some purist pursuit. Don't muddy things with posts taken out of context, please. We've already warned about that.

Yes, I can see the conversation as G intensely explaining the pockets on the phone and interjecting descriptions about what he sees in the photo of Slydini's jacket, and Tony telling G about Slydini's pockets while also saying what G is describing were on the jacket he had in hand. The two conversations colliding in the middle.
Also I can see G having to make it an intense conversation describing pockets as Tony is very visual, and conversations on the phone such as that are not visual.
Anyone who has talked with Tony at length on the telephone should understand what I mean.
So yes, had G just said 'copy it' he would have received exactly what we see in jacket #000.

[RCSignals]

............

Like I said, I find it bemusing that Peter would apply these unsual, lesser-known specs on those 90s Wested just "for the heck of it." I mean, he was well aware of the "hero" specs as we can see in that Leather Concessionaries jacket above. Very weird. Having said this, I've emailed him asking him this very question. Let's see what he has to say...

I don't see the 'Hero' specs in that jacket. It is not the 'Hero' jacket, yes it as details of it but it is not it.

Then there is Lee Keppler's jacket from Leather Concessionaires which pre-dates the one you posted, but is newer that the 'Bell Hop' patterned jacket Lee received from Leather Concessionaires but sent back.

These photos are from the 'Internet Archive' of the original discussion board here, not the current Indy Gear archive.

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[sebas]

First, I've reread the whole string again, and I think where Sebas and I are not connecting is on this jacket. To me it is a pre-2000 wested/leather concessionaire. I'd bet dinner and rounds for everyone here that it is not a Cooper/USW. But I think that if we hold that aside, I'm following you, Sebas. I think...

In reality, _, the only thing I'm curious about at this point is why Peter made those 90s jackets with the unsual strap specs, being aware (apparently) that they were just that: unusual. It makes you wonder.

From what I can infer, I can only speculate the following reason:
Even after making the LC jackets with the usual Indy "SA" strap placement, when making the 90s Westeds Peter obviously believed that the original Raiders pattern was different: i.e. side straps with inseam back panel stitching and connected to the pocket. etc.

Now: why would he believe that? I think if we ask this question it raises many others.

[sebas]

............

Like I said, I find it bemusing that Peter would apply these unsual, lesser-known specs on those 90s Wested just "for the heck of it." I mean, he was well aware of the "hero" specs as we can see in that Leather Concessionaries jacket above. Very weird. Having said this, I've emailed him asking him this very question. Let's see what he has to say...

I don't see the 'Hero' specs in that jacket. It is not the 'Hero' jacket, yes it as details of it but it is not it.

RC, you're right. What I meant is that particular jacket, like the one you'be posted picutres of here have correct SA strap placement. That's all I meant to say.

[Holt]

In reality, _, the only thing I'm curious about at this point is why Peter made those 90s jackets with the unsual strap specs, being aware (apparently) that they were just that: unusual. It makes you wonder.

well, I honestly believe he just forgot and thought it was like that...

why do I think that, well look at the early LC wested's. dont even get me sarted on those...they obviously forgot alot on that jacket too....

so, as the humans that we are.. we tend to forget stuff.....

[sebas]

In reality, _, the only thing I'm curious about at this point is why Peter made those 90s jackets with the unsual strap specs, being aware (apparently) that they were just that: unusual. It makes you wonder.

well, I honestly believe he just forgot and thought it was like that...

why do I think that, well look at the early LC wested's. dont even get me sarted on those...they obviously forgot alot on that jacket too....

so, as the humans that we are.. we tend to forget stuff.....

If Peter hadn't made an Indiana Jones jacket since 1981, I would believe his forgetting of such details 15 years later. But he had made the LC and Leather Concessionary jackets -with the right strap placement and stitching(!)- shorly before he started with those first Westeds in the 90s. How could he possibly forget?

[Hatch]

sebas, maybe ask the pub owner.....

[Holt]

But he had made the LC and Leather Concessionary jackets -with the right strap placement and stitching(!)

since I brought up the LC jacket, I will stop it so it doesnt bleed into a LC discussion.


but just to give a short answer about the LC jacket. no he did not make the jacket with the right strap config and stitching (!)

[RCSignals]

Are you suggesting the Last Crusade jacket had the same strap placement and stitching as those '90s Leather Concessionaires jackets?

[sebas]

Are you suggesting the Last Crusade jacket had the same strap placement and stitching as those '90s Leather Concessionaires jackets?

Quite clearly, this is not the case.

Compare this Smithsonian detail...


With a 98 Wested on the right...



Lastly, the David Hack jacket which has the same early Wested strap-to-pocket placement.

[Michaelson]

Lastly, the David Hack jacket which has the same early Wested strap-to-pocket placement.

Or, maybe the early Wested has the same strap-to-pocket as the David Hack jacket. Which came first? That's the question.

Regards! Michaelson

[crismans]

Lastly, the David Hack jacket which has the same early Wested strap-to-pocket placement.

Or, maybe the early Wested has the same strap-to-pocket as the David Hack jacket. Which came first? That's the question.

Regards! Michaelson

If Hack's jacket isn't an early LC then it makes placing it very problematic. If SS gets Cooper to make the jacket after he vetoes the POS after Bantu Wind, then the next scene(s) is the Imam's house jacket. Now, while nothing is for certain, it seems probable the Imam's jacket is the jacket that Cooper made. If he made one to that pattern and SS approved it, why would Cooper then go back and revise the pattern to what we see with Hack's jacket? And why would a stunt jacket feature this pattern if the third order (provided I'm remembering correctly) was ordered for the stunt men and to be more in line with the hero jacket after the incorrect second order?

I'm sure I'm missing something here, what is it?

[Michaelson]

I'm not saying it was, or wasn't for that matter.

I'm just tossing that question out there, as we've only seen this one photo of this particular jacket, and no other background other than it was given to David Hack by Neil Cooper when he handed the company over.

This supposedly took place in 1984, or just before, so that would predate the jacket to LC's 1989 release date by 4-5 years.

Just more grist for the old mill.....

Regards! Michaelson

[crismans]

I'm sure there's laws against teasing, Michaelson!!

[Michaelson]

[RCSignals]

Could it be that the jacket Sgt Hack has was an early Cooper prototype submission, not accepted but relegated to Stunt use as being 'disposable'. That particular one just happening to have been un-needed and there for remaining unused.
While side strap configuration is similar to an early Wested, the pocket shape itselfm particularly at the lower potion of the 'hand warmer' seems slightly different.
Does that jacket have a low yoke?

[BrandonA18]

Hi guys,

Is there any confirmation that the jacket sold at that auction is authentic? Has anyone screen matched?

Best,
Brandon

[RCSignals]

Brandon, which jacket, which auction? The 'Kurtz' jacket (LC?) or the 'Butterfield' (RAIDERS?) ?

Neither screen match however the Butterfield does match Wested/Leather Concessionaires fan jackets.

What is your view/opinion?

[Lee Keppler]

sebas wrote:
............

Like I said, I find it bemusing that Peter would apply these unsual, lesser-known specs on those 90s Wested just "for the heck of it." I mean, he was well aware of the "hero" specs as we can see in that Leather Concessionaries jacket above. Very weird. Having said this, I've emailed him asking him this very question. Let's see what he has to say...


I don't see the 'Hero' specs in that jacket. It is not the 'Hero' jacket, yes it as details of it but it is not it.

Then there is Lee Keppler's jacket from Leather Concessionaires which pre-dates the one you posted, but is newer that the 'Bell Hop' patterned jacket Lee received from Leather Concessionaires but sent back.

These photos are from the 'Internet Archive' of the original discussion board here, not the current Indy Gear archive.

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Just for the record, this Leather Concessionaires jacket is after the Bellhop Jacket. My last, personal jacket was sent to Peter to "Jog the memory". I did get the jacket back, and there is a picture of it on what is left of my website.I wanted an inside pocket like the one on the back cover of the coffee table book, "Stars", a slim leather facing, but the FS jacket jogged the memory too well, and I got the triangular one that FS started doing after two jacket. This Jacket dates from 1987 and is owned by Steven Manley.

[RCSignals]

Thank you for catching that Lee, I meant by 'newer' being more recent made after the Bell hop but I see how that wording is un-clear.

[BrandonA18]

Well, I'd be curious to hear if either jacket has been matched.

Is there any provenance behind the Butterfield's jacket? I believe I saw the catalog once and there was no mention of Martin Grace. Where has that connection come from?

Regards
Brandon

[Lee Keppler]

Just giving the timeline on the jacket.

[RCSignals]

Lee, is the jacket posted on your web site the same as in the written description or is it the earlier jacket mentioned? the description mentions no more "X" box stitching but the jacket in the photo has "X" box stitching.

http://www.adventure-supply.com/compone ... story.html

[Lee Keppler]

The jacket in the picture is the one I sent to Peter in 1987. The text is about the Gibson & Barnes Expedition Jacket(I even named it!). The jacket in the picture is the one peter copied down to the trianguler inside pocket facing.

[RCSignals]

Thank you for the clarification on the photos.
That explains why it looks so much like a '90s era Wested Raiders jacket

[sebas]

Thank you for the clarification on the photos.
That explains why it looks so much like a '90s era Wested Raiders jacket

RC, to me that jacket looks nothing like a 90s Wested: the color, the pocket shape, and most tellingly: the (correct!) strap placement and stitching.

I don't see the 'Hero' specs in that jacket. It is not the 'Hero' jacket, yes it as details of it but it is not it.

Lee, I realize that picture above is not "hero". What I meant to say is that it has the correct or standard "SA" strap placement and stitching.

But Lee, what I'd love to hear from you is the answer to what I asked earlier:
On his 90s Westeds, why do you think Peter included these (unusal) sidestrap specs: inseam stitching, attached to the handwarmers? I mean, why not simply go with the standard Indy specs that he saw on your jacket? That's what I find baffling.

[RCSignals]

Thank you for the clarification on the photos.
That explains why it looks so much like a '90s era Wested Raiders jacket

RC, to me that jacket looks nothing like a 90s Wested: the color, the pocket shape, and most tellingly: the (correct!) strap placement and stitching.

a stitch for stitch jacket sebas no, but you can see it in the '90s era Wested.
There are differences yes but look at the general jacket.

[sebas]

a stitch for stitch jacket sebas no, but you can see it in the '90s era Wested.
There are differences yes but look at the general jacket.

Well, I guess we'll have to 'agree to disagree' on this one RC. That Keppler strap placement and exterior back panel stitching is what current Westeds have (as well as every Indy jacket made today, for that matter). The 90s Westeds are odd precisely because of the absence of these specs. So to say that the Keppler jacket "looks so much like" a 90s Wested is a bit of an overstatement, IMHO...

Now, the Hack jacket is another story. That, to me is almost identical to a 90s Wested...

[RCSignals]

a stitch for stitch jacket sebas no, but you can see it in the '90s era Wested.
There are differences yes but look at the general jacket.

Well, I guess we'll have to 'agree to disagree' on this one RC. That Keppler strap placement and exterior back panel stitching is what current Westeds have (as well as every Indy jacket made today, for that matter). The 90s Westeds are odd precisely because of the absence of these specs. So to say that the Keppler jacket "looks so much like" a 90s Wested is a bit of an overstatement, IMHO...

Now, the Hack jacket is another story. That, to me is almost identical to a 90s Wested...

"That Keppler strap placement and exterior back panel stitching is what current Westeds have (as well as every Indy jacket made today, for that matter)"

I'm guessing you mean the strap stitching on the panel? It's X-Box stitching and that is not what every Indy jacket made today uses. Even from Wested X-box is a custom request is it not?
If you mean general stitching, I don't think it is exactly the same as every other Indy jacket out there today either.

But as I said . Stitch for stitch no it is not' identical'. Look at the body pattern.

[sebas]

I'm guessing you mean the strap stitching on the panel? It's X-Box stitching and that is not what every Indy jacket made today uses. Even from Wested X-box is a custom request is it not?
If you mean general stitching, I don't think it is exactly the same as every other Indy jacket out there today either.

But as I said . Stitch for stitch no it is not' identical'. Look at the body pattern.

Sorry RC, I'm not expressing myself correctly. Forget the stitching. I'm talking about "structural" differences mainly. Those being, the strap placement and exterior attachment onto the back pannel. Independently of the stitching, the Keppler jacket's "structure" in this regard is the same as current Westeds and virtually every Indy jacket nowadays.

In any event, I suspect finding an answer to these differences and discrepancies in in those 90s Westeds is pretty much a lost cause. Even Peter himself probably doesn't know... If only that bloody Hack jacket wasn't so similar to the 90s Westeds I'd "let it go" but I'm convinced there has to be some connection between them. They're way too similar.

[gwyddion]

Couldn't it simply be that the Hack jacket is from the second order (with the miss-matching jackets) and that for some strange reason the pattern for these was saved/found again? I mean, for an order of 10 jackets, made by various members of staff, surely there had to be some kind of pattern?

Regards, Geert

[RCSignals]

Couldn't it simply be that the Hack jacket is from the second order (with the miss-matching jackets) and that for some strange reason the pattern for these was saved/found again? I mean, for an order of 10 jackets, made by various members of staff, surely there had to be some kind of pattern?

Regards, Geert

Anything is possible, however the 'Hack' jacket has been attributed to Cooper (even though Hack did not say that here from what I've seen)

You would think there would be a pattern for 10 jackets, and these jackets were apparently all the same size.

Was there a story some time back that a 'pattern' was found in the back of 'the barn' and that is where the '90s Wested was born from?

[Michaelson]

Anything is possible, however the 'Hack' jacket has been attributed to Cooper (even though Hack did not say that here from what I've seen)........

Was there a story some time back that a 'pattern' was found in the back of 'the barn' and that is where the '90s Wested was born from?

David Hack told ME it was given to him by Neil Cooper when he took over the business from Neil. He also sent me that photo, that I then sent to the webmaster to post here, with his permission of course.

As to the Wested, there was no pattern 'found in the barn'. What was supposedly found was an unfinished jacket for Raiders that was never delivered to set (according to Peter) and was found in a pile of old unfinished jobs when they moved from their Ordinance St. address to the Little Wested location. That's what he said he used when he sourced the new Italian lambskin color.

Regards! Michaelson

[RCSignals]

Thank you for clarifying that 'found pattern' story.

'M' I knew you had posted Sgt Hack told you Neil Cooper gave him the jacket, it just is still not clear if it was a 'Cooper' jacket, although one may assume so.

[Michaelson]

In the case of this jacket, about all we have are assumptions now, but he did refer to it as a 'Cooper jacket', so I say that would be a safe assumption regarding who made it. Whether he was referring to it being made by Neil, or just owned by Neil is another mystery we have to mull over.

Regard! Michaelson