Club Obi Wan

Those are great shots. If it wasn't for the goofy look on Marion, I'd use the first one as wall paper. Awesome Indy action shot!

BUUUUUUT....
It's the second pic that the hat looks more natural and almost like in has some "creased in" turn:

I noticed these.... cant tell if the second one is actually turned or not.
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ij4_68.jpg

http://www.theraider.net/films/indy4/ga ... ts/316.jpg

If it wasn't for the absurd degree of reverse taper ( abuse of the term in this case, really ), that hat would look pretty sharp; "Raiders-y". I'm sure it's just the angle of the pic, but it looks like he's got a hybrid chef's hat on. Again, I know this isn't actually the case, as those hats look really good, otherwise. In any event, I think the brim looks kinda cool in that shot and would make for something neat/different in an Indy 5 hat, especially if you could come up with a reason for Indiana Jones being a bit more "rough around the edges" again.
The costume says volumes about the character, and the original Raiders gear - particularly the hat - said a lot of things to a lot of people; the "turn" is a very devil-may-care sort of look: "Hey, it's a hat. It keeps the sun out of my eyes. Everybody's got one. What's the big deal....?"
So, if in Indy 5 he found himself being more harried, perhaps in a situation he's totally unprepared for ( maybe the artifact itself is something he's unfamiliar with or it's otherwise a mystery to him ), then that sentiment could be reflected in a more disheveled get up - including a hat with the turn.

kiltie wrote:Those are great shots. If it wasn't for the goofy look on Marion, I'd use the first one as wall paper. Awesome Indy action shot!

Crop it!

I don't believe either of those are turned. If so, only slightly. When we chatted a few weeks back, I'm certain John told me it was during the warehouse scenes.

Randy

theinterchange wrote:I don't believe either of those are turned. If so, only slightly. When we chatted a few weeks back, I'm certain John told me it was during the warehouse scenes.

Randy

I just got done watching 4 and I didn't pay attention to the hat. I got into the movie but I think what I saw was the hat being worn of center not bashed off center.
Except for the photo of Ford taking a break on set.

theinterchange wrote:I don't believe either of those are turned. If so, only slightly. When we chatted a few weeks back, I'm certain John told me it was during the warehouse scenes.

Randy

I'm sorry, I don't agree. In the first pic the crown isnt bashed with a turn, he's just put the hat on turned. The second one I think is. I really think that brim has a very distinctive distortion that (IMHO) is unmistakable. Since I descovered the turn on COW I've been seeing what it looks like with all my other felt fedoras, trilbys and even some of my bush hats (Akubra). To me, that kind of brim distortion can only look like that with a turn. I could be wrong

I'm waiting for Steve to come in here and clear things up, since he made the hats.

BendingOak wrote:

theinterchange wrote:I don't believe either of those are turned. If so, only slightly. When we chatted a few weeks back, I'm certain John told me it was during the warehouse scenes.

Randy

I just got done watching 4 and I didn't pay attention to the hat. I got into the movie but I think what I saw was the hat being worn of center not bashed off center.

Have to agree here. I think that the beaver hats, with their lack of malleability, tend to show the effects of "the turn" in much smaller incraments than a rabbit hat would ( or, rather, a rabbit hat with little stiffener ). Therefore, while the second picture looks turned, it's sitting off kilter just a tad, thus giving the brim warp. Still, though, it looks cool ( if it weren't for that danged angle giving the exaggerated reverse taper ).

I don't agree. Though I only have one hat creased turned, the brim warps just as well as any rabbit hat. I have tuned both my CS ABs, with the pinch off center, just to see what it looks like and I love the brim warp and it looks nothing like the pics posted. It looks like the classic turn. I may turn one just so that it is different.

Dave

It doesn't really matter all that much is what I found. If it's a cowboy stiff hat it won't be easy or feel good with a turned hat. You want a hat with little stiffener in it as possible.

I'm waiting for Steve to come in here and clear things up, since he made the hats.

Uh, ok. We creases all of the hats prior to sending them to Bernie, via Western Costume. No hats were turned by us. And since I know for a fact, Bernie detested the turn on the Raiders hat, I am fairly certain none were turned for this last film.

But.....several hats got saturated in the water scenes. The first one to do so, Bernie just left in the creases and let them dry while sitting on the brim. This caused the wet crown to move inwards(as they tend to do if you dry a hat in that manner) He called me, and I suggested he punch out the crowns, turn down the sweats and let them dry in this state. Which he did, and then he re-used those particular hats in the film. Now, on come days, for whatever reason, Bernie was not on site, during certain scenes, and the hat was not fussed over, like he tended to do. His temp., his replacement, did not keep the hat looking the way Bernie had done, and this miffed him somewhat, being the picky guy that he is. So, if a hat was turned, it was this other gentleman who did it, and of course, if you take an open crown hat, that has been dried, it is possible to put the creases in off center.....so it IS POSSIBLE. I just don't know, one way or the other.

I do know that if you turn a CS hat, and put in the creases deeper, in the top, it pulls off the Raiders look as well as any other hat does. But with some exagerration, of course, since the CS block is actually a straighter block than the Raiders block was. The CS block is perfectly straight on the sides, ala 3M$'s hats. While the Raiders block has a little taper, which creases out. Now, not the amount of taper seen in most hats, but it still had some taper, all the way around the hat.

The good thing about the CS block is that it can yield taper, it just depends upon how you crease this hat. And apparently, this was liked by Bernie, who could get the taper, or lack of, just by steaming the hat and working with the creases. It's a really versatile blockshape, and I think this was why he chose it, over the Raiders blocks we sent. It just gave him more clay to work with.

I don't think Ford is a full long oval head, but he might be a slight long oval, in which case, his head might warp the brims of the soft hats I sent. Remember, they started out fairly soft, then Bernie had me add shellac to keep the creases from popping out, and then he changed his mind again, and I sent the rest--of the softer felt. But, I think 3 of Ford's hats were pretty stiff, out of the 9 brown ones we made just for him. So, you are seeing our softer hats, but also no doubt in some scenes the stiffer ones.

In some scenes, it looks like the brim has a bit of a warp going on, like the hat was turned. But not to the degree of the Raiders fedora.

I think most of the hats in this last film were close to the LC hat in stiffness. I know one fan made the comment that the CS hat was not like a real fedora, as it looked like a western hat in felt....but, I must remind folks that the LC hat was the same way. Only the Raiders fedora looked to be made from a no stiffener rabbit felt, and you must compared ALL of the Indy hats, and not just compare the Raiders to the CS. To me, if you took the LC hat and made the brim larger, with cowboy creases, it would be indistinguishable from a western felt.

Western felt is no different from dress felt, EXCEPT, they add more shellac to the western hats! And generally western felt is much thicker. The CS hat was NOT a thick felt, just a very dense felt, due to the beaver fur felting tighter than rabbit does.

If you take a vintage pure beaver fedora, from any of the old hatmakers, like Stetson, it would appear the same as the CS fedora did, in texture. A finer felted hat. To confuse the old and new pourous rabbit with western felt is a mistake in judgment. The cheaper hats of yesteryear featured the porous rabbit, which came about because the rabbit felt was not felted as tightly as it could have been. As with the cheaper rabbit hats of today. To save time and costs, the cones are not run through the felting machine as many times, as the higher end rabbit hats. That is, it does not take as many man hours to make a loosely felted hat, which some confuse with a real vintage felt. When what they should be noticing is the lack of time spent making the felt. As you can see, this has been a sore subject with me, because face it, all felt is made the same way!! Some they just take more time with, in the felting stage. Fedora