Club Obi Wan

Of course, sadly there's no good reason to go to SAB for a hat today. The only place anyone's going to get a good HJ from in this day and age is off of Steve or Marc's workbench.

Johnny

Snapbrim76 wrote:Sorry guys, I was in town, but I could hardly move for the crowds attending the 'Pride London' celebration. The streets were filled with revellers and the traffic was stationary and I needed to get to work. Sadly SAB don't open on Sundays so the next opportunity I'll get will be Monday. Sorry for the delay!

No problem, thanks for doing this favour for all of us!

Erri wrote:

Snapbrim76 wrote:Sorry guys, I was in town, but I could hardly move for the crowds attending the 'Pride London' celebration. The streets were filled with revellers and the traffic was stationary and I needed to get to work. Sadly SAB don't open on Sundays so the next opportunity I'll get will be Monday. Sorry for the delay!

No problem, thanks for doing this favour for all of us!

I agree !! keep us updated;)

Ok guys, it's like this...

I've asked them about RS and they seem to be acting very guarded about the situation. I even asked people I know in other shops along St James Street. No one's giving me any definite answers and people who should really know are saying nothing much at all. It's a bit like Edward Norton's character in Fight Club trying to track down Tyler Durden! So I think the underlying message (if I'm Reading between the lines correctly) is this:

If he is alive he really really wants to be left alone to enjoy his retirement in peace.

Sorry guys I don't think anyone who isn't really close to him will be privy to this information. I have started to feel a bit like a stalker myself and I really don't think it's wise I mention it again. I think we have our answer.

So Mr Swales, if you are out there then I, for one, hope you get your peace, in this world or the next.

If he is alive he really really wants to be left alone to enjoy his retirement in peace.

Understandable, but I wish he was available. I have a couple of questions I would like answers to.

1) What did he use to bespoke the Raiders fedora? A Poet, or something else?

2) Why the big change from the Raiders fedora to what followed?
Fedora

Steve, the first question is very legitimate, and at the heart of our hobby... for what concerns the hat.
The second I can probably answer it myself... "greed"! Why wasting time with a bespoke hat when they could deliver a lower priced mass-produced brown hat which was technically similar?

Another possibility was the lack of good materials which DID occur between 81 and 84! It might have been just the same hat but made with different felt (different felt=different hat).

If it was the first case (money making scheme) an interview with Swales wouldn't let you know it. In the second scenario, probably Swales would tell you that (he was always complaining of the lack of quality material around '84).

It might have been both!

I was under the impression that they didn't use the poet or any of their mass produced hat models but a unique model just for the film. I'm sure I distinctly remember my first visit to SAB and one of the male staff (not Swales) talking to me about the hat design. He said that the poet is the nearest hat to the one designed for Raiders but not the actual one. He took a poet off the shelf and turned the brim down all the way round (so it had no swoop) and said that was the way the poet was supposed to be worn. I'm almost positive he said the Raiders hat was uniquely created for the film and was never duplicated after. I don't think they realized Indy would become such a household name and the hat would be such a collectors item. I not sure that either greed or complacency was behind the change thereafter. Possibly seeing the success of Raiders and the potential dumbing-down of the HJ brand as a tourist attraction as opposed to a well-respected aristocratic gentleman's outfitters may have caused HJ to withdraw their services?!

I think the answer is very simple. What is the X factor in the raiders hat. Why it was different than TOD and LC? What changed? DL is that X-factor.

I used to think that there was a lot of people making that hat ( Raiders) that we all love so much but have now changed my thinking to the real creative mind behind it was her. After viewing that interview of that fan DVD, I am sure she is the reason for that hat.

Snapbrim76 wrote:....... He took a poet off the shelf and turned the brim down all the way round (so it had no swoop) and said that was the way the poet was supposed to be worn. ........

Interesting the Poet is meant to be worn with all the brim turned down. Is the basic poet made with a dimensionally cut brim or is it cut uniformly?

BendingOak wrote:I think the answer is very simple. What is the X factor in the raiders hat. Why it was different than TOD and LC? What changed? DL is that X-factor.

I used to think that there was a lot of people making that hat ( Raiders) that we all love so much but have now changed my thinking to the real creative mind behind it was her. After viewing that interview of that fan DVD, I am sure she is the reason for that hat.

Probably you're right. But...they are so many hats in the first movie. In fact, it's depending of the scenes.
it's chocolat (especially in Cairo) more than sable( but it's clearly sable in the other movies), it seems to be more an prop than a "permanent" hat . The felt also has changed (better quality in the second and the third)
If Deborah Noodelman gave instructions...the hat was made by HJ and especially R Swales...
Anyway...
Thank You a lot snapbrim76 for your steps.
The mystery remains...the true spirit of Indiana Jones

Snapbrim76 wrote:I was under the impression that they didn't use the poet or any of their mass produced hat models but a unique model just for the film. I'm sure I distinctly remember my first visit to SAB and one of the male staff (not Swales) talking to me about the hat design. He said that the poet is the nearest hat to the one designed for Raiders but not the actual one. He took a poet off the shelf and turned the brim down all the way round (so it had no swoop) and said that was the way the poet was supposed to be worn. I'm almost positive he said the Raiders hat was uniquely created for the film and was never duplicated after. I don't think they realized Indy would become such a household name and the hat would be such a collectors item. I not sure that either greed or complacency was behind the change thereafter. Possibly seeing the success of Raiders and the potential dumbing-down of the HJ brand as a tourist attraction as opposed to a well-respected aristocratic gentleman's outfitters may have caused HJ to withdraw their services?!

We don't forget the contract between the movie's production (a "speciality of Spielberg") and Dorfman...perhaps HJ didn't have the law ?
In the beginning of the eighties, the shop was very high-class...ten years later it was become a "little" shop...Now, we know that HJ made the fedora but in the eighties...no Internet. It's Richard Swales himself who told me he was the hatter of the movie. But, in same time, I didn't remember to have seen a hat like the poet in the shop and R. Swale didn't indicate me a particular hat after telling me he was the creator!
But I'm sure that the body and the felt used for my hats (bought this day) was this used for TOD and LC but my hats were not so tall and the brim larger.

Snapbrim76 wrote:He took a poet off the shelf and turned the brim down all the way round (so it had no swoop) and said that was the way the poet was supposed to be worn.

Seaplane hat ! There you go

Some great info in this thread guys. Thanks snapbrim and anjali, hearing from the people who ACTUALLY talked to Swales is always... educative

ANJALI wrote: But I'm sure that the body and the felt used for my hats (bought this day) was this used for TOD and LC but my hats were not so tall and the brim larger.

Do you have a picture of these hats ANJALI?

ANJALI wrote: We don't forget the contract between the movie's production (a "speciality of Spielberg") and Dorfman...perhaps HJ didn't have the law ?

Actually it was Stetson who originally held the "official" license in the '80s. It was only after Stetson let it lapse some years later that Dorfman picked it up.

Tremolo wrote:

ANJALI wrote: But I'm sure that the body and the felt used for my hats (bought this day) was this used for TOD and LC but my hats were not so tall and the brim larger.

Do you have a picture of these hats ANJALI?

Unfortunetly no picture for the moment because I don't have these hats with me in Kenya But when, i'm going back in France, I'll took pictures of these hats (one used, two news)

binkmeisterRick wrote:

ANJALI wrote: We don't forget the contract between the movie's production (a "speciality of Spielberg") and Dorfman...perhaps HJ didn't have the law ?

Actually it was Stetson who originally held the "official" license in the '80s. It was only after Stetson let it lapse some years later that Dorfman picked it up.

I wasn't sure but what you said is very interesting because at the end of the eighties(1989), I've been in San Fransisco.
Around the tourist area of Fishersmanwarf (something like that...I don't remember), I found a hatter and bought a Stetson very near of the "fedora of indy" perfect "right" body. I always have this hat.
It was sold as the "Indiana Jones" hat around 100$.


It was made on a preformed body (nothing to do to change the hat, not open crowned) and this preformed body was very, very good , but...the felt was not good at all unfortunatly. It was the kind of felt with a lot of wool...Neverthless, It'd be very interesting that Stetson produces again this Hat (Imperial stetson, nostalgia...I remember the label inside); It was a perfect model representating the thirties forties hat...
I flying back in France tonight.
As soon as possible, I'll send you a picture of this hat.

Stetson made the licensed hats in both wool and fur felt versions. If my memory serves me correctly, the current Stetson "Temple" is essentially the same hat they produced as the fur felt licensed hat. The "Nostalgia" is a good looking hat, though, and is designed to emulate the look of hats in the '30s and '40s.

binkmeisterRick wrote:Stetson made the licensed hats in both wool and fur felt versions. If my memory serves me correctly, the current Stetson "Temple" is essentially the same hat they produced as the fur felt licensed hat. The "Nostalgia" is a good looking hat, though, and is designed to emulate the look of hats in the '30s and '40s.

Of course, Ive been looking for this hat during a longtime...but I 've never seen it on Internet. I've been on the web site of Miller hats but "my" Stetson is very different ! it doesn't look at all at the "Temple"...and the others models!
the preformed body is an excellent basic body.

Well, both the Temple and Nostalgia are still offered today, even if the specs have changed some. But that's a topic for another thread since this one is about HJ and Mr. Swales.

binkmeisterRick wrote:Well, both the Temple and Nostalgia are still offered today, even if the specs have changed some. But that's a topic for another thread since this one is about HJ and Mr. Swales.

Of course !

ANJALI wrote:

BendingOak wrote:I think the answer is very simple. What is the X factor in the raiders hat. Why it was different than TOD and LC? What changed? DL is that X-factor.

I used to think that there was a lot of people making that hat ( Raiders) that we all love so much but have now changed my thinking to the real creative mind behind it was her. After viewing that interview of that fan DVD, I am sure she is the reason for that hat.

Probably you're right. But...they are so many hats in the first movie. In fact, it's depending of the scenes.
it's chocolat (especially in Cairo) more than sable( but it's clearly sable in the other movies), it seems to be more an prop than a "permanent" hat . The felt also has changed (better quality in the second and the third)
If Deborah Noodelman gave instructions...the hat was made by HJ and especially R Swales...
Anyway...
Thank You a lot snapbrim76 for your steps.
The mystery remains...the true spirit of Indiana Jones

I don't see how anyone can tell the true color of the Cairo hat. The cairo hat was very faded and had so much dirt and dust on it. I think the true color is closer to the early shot in the movie when the hat looks like it just came out of the box. I also think it's hard to tell the exact color of the hat based off of screen grabs. I really don't think they used different felt for the Raiders hats. It's more of the lighting making the hat look different. I can make my own hats look all different colors.

I can agree with BendingOak, there is no reason to doubt about the constancy of the felt colour. The cairo hat went through a lot of distressing, both natural and artificial. I feel quite safe to postulate that the felt colour is constant through out the whole film, probably the same colour also in the opening sequence (outside the temple)

Erri, is that the first time we agreed on something?

Naahh, I'm sure there were other times

I'm sure the real difference in the hat after Raiders was DN wasn't designing them anymore. I really feel that 'the turn' gave the fedora that true Indy shape. No other at has looked the same - they always seem to look too clean and tidy. The SoC hat is so beaten up and buckled that it really has character. I just don't feel that Fuller's Earth is enough to give the hat that Raiders look. Without 'the turn' the brim doesn't look the same.

If my memory serves me correctly, the current Stetson "Temple" is essentially the same hat they produced as the fur felt licensed hat.

Yes. About 10 years ago, I was given the toll free number to Stetson, by a local businessman. I called them up to discuss the Stetson Indy fedora. I was told that when they lost the right to sell this Indy hat, they changed the name to Temple, but it was the same hat as seen in TLC. And if I recall correctly, they also told me, the original name of the Stetson Indy fedora was the Ark. They used the same hat, and just changed the name so they could keep selling it.

I saw a hat once here, a Temple, that was re creased to TLC hat. The hat at the end of the film, in the Temple, before Henry Sr. gets shot. It was identical to that film hat! That is when I knew that the hats used in that scene was indeed a Temple Stetson. There was no mistaking it.

On the color of the Raiders fedora. I too think two colors were used in that film. One was much more red, while others look to have a yellow undertone.The hat are the start of the film, outside the temple) But, it may just be due to "film". I saw a hat in CS in low light that looked black!!! Fedora

And that's definately nothing to do with lighting, camera filters etc? I've taken pictures of my hats with the same camera in the same room on the same day and the hat looks different colours in each. What do you think Steve?

Met up with Snapbrim76 in London today and went on a pilgremage to Swaine.
The hat section in Swaine is downstairs now and there is a little shelf devoted to the Indy hat,with a print out of the info from their website..no picture of Indy on display anymore.
The Poet they had on display was actually quite a nice hat(I was expecting a lot worse!).It was a shame it was displayed on a tube that pushed the top dent out!
Snapbrim asked if they had one in his size and the sales assistant came back with a completly different hat!(thicker felt,lighter in colour with a light brown ribbon,tacked differently-like the christys ribbon-and a different sweatband).He offered to steam and bash it if we wanted.
He said the hat on display was the Poet 'we sell to the American market' and that the other hat was 'the original poet' .He was very friendly and he talked about Indy fans coming into the shop,he said one fan had kept him talking for 2 hours!.
He did confirm that Richard Swales died in Oct last year.
We also visited Lock and co and Bates hatters(Hornets was closed) and had a lot of fun seeing the sights!

Friends, Romans, and Countrymen... lend me your hats!

It's a shame about Swales, though now we know.

Agreed. But the man was a legend, and legends never die. Now I treasure my Poet more than ever. Rest in peace, Sir Richard.

Hey Fox! Lets head on over to Georgia and get us a geniune Swales Poet. I hear this guy whipwarrior has one!

Dave

My Swales Poet is guarded by a tribe of fierce Hovitos warriors who only answer to the Golden Idol.

Just try to get past them!!! Muah-hah-hah-hah!!!

If only I spoke Hovitos...

Dave

The hat on display in that pic looks really pretty good - nice bash too. And that's a different model? Can't you buy that one?

moses wrote:The hat on display in that pic looks really pretty good - nice bash too. And that's a different model? Can't you buy that one?

I would like to see a 360 of that hat. Any hat from one point of view can look good. What would the hat look like if it's bash was pushed back in? Would is still look that straight sided? Why is the ribbon so light? Why would a hat shop/company like HJ display their
hat that way?

He said the hat on display was the Poet 'we sell to the American market' and that the other hat was 'the original poet'

The hat on the display is the best HJ I have seen, newer ones that is. Looks totally different than what they send me. Fedora

So why the Americans should get a different hat??? Why selling them somthing "different" from the "REAL" poet (nevermind the fact that the real poet doesn't look like the REAL poet)
Sounds like a fraud to you Americans... and yet you seem to get the best stuff for some reason.

Who talked to them over the phone for 2 hours? Steve was it you or Marc???

Do you think the poet for the US market is the same as Todd's? Also, can the "american version" be purchased in the shop in London? Just curious

(sadly I can only tell you "I TOLD YOU" about Swales, you missed the boat guys)

whoo hooo, GO America!



so if i were to purchase a stock HJ from their website
(to the US) that is what i would get?

Didn't Steve once send HJ a reblocked hat as a demo inorder to get permission to do the Mag HJs? I wonder if that hat on display is that hat?

I hope this means the HJ poet's quality is improving - I've got more hats than I can handle for now, but for the HJ name to be worth buying again by the time I've saved up enough $$ would be cool.

I wouldn't get excited just yet. Any Indy-ish hat (even HJ) with a popped up crown looks that good. Surely I'm interested in seeing more of that hat in the glass but I wouldn't start saving up money for a HJ just yet if I were you

That display hat is a bit of a mystery.
The display hat was the only one of those hats they had in the shop-it was size 53cm-and the Poets they DID have in stock(the ones we tried-on) were completely different hats.
That display hat was gorgeous!,the felt was super-thin and smooth-like vintage felt and so easy to bash,rich Sable colour(hurt to see it stuck on top of that tube!).The Ribbon was very nice..it looked very close to the proper colour(the flash makes it look lighter in pic)but I would like to see it upstairs in daylight for comparison.
Snapbrim76 and I have tried to order one of the display hats each,but the sales-assistant hasn't got back to us.
This is only my opinion..I think the sales-assistant mixed up the hats when he was describing them to us.I think the hat on display was actually what he called "the original Poet"(maybe they have had it in a dusty cupboard for a few years before putting it on display?) and the hat they brought out from stock is the hat "..we send to the American market".Which made a lot more sense when I recieved my Mag HJ-the felt was very similar-much thicker than the display hat-also the stock hat had a poorly tacked Bow(Steve has said the hats sent to him have 'horrible' Bows which he replaces).I would have liked to compare to my Mag HJ properly but I didn't recieve it until the day after our visit.
We are going back to SAB soon and I have lots of questions about that display hat and why there are apparently two different Poets available?(that's assuming that the display hat is even available to buy-we tried to buy one and failed! ).I'd like to take more pics of that hat and also of the stock hats..my gut feeling at the moment is the display hat is a one-off for display only and not available to buy but I would like to find out for sure.

If you get a chance to, can you ask to see the inside of the hat?

Didn't Steve once send HJ a reblocked hat as a demo inorder to get permission to do the Mag HJs? I wonder if that hat on display is that hat?

I did have to send one in, so they could make sure my work was good enough, since Magnoli wanted to sell em'. They accepted my work, which was no surprise to me. My HJ looked better than their own. So, I got their permission to reblock them, etc.

I don't recall what happened to that hat though. I never got it back, and I don't think Indy Mag did either. Seems like we may have had them to send it on to a customer, not really sure. But very possible.

The hat in the display is the best looking stock HJ I have seen, outside the films. I am curious about it, in a big way.

I don't know why they would have the heavier felt in the store though. Unless they decided they liked it better once Magnoli ordered his run. He does use HJ and not the factory for his hats.....Fedora

BendingOak wrote:If you get a chance to, can you ask to see the inside of the hat?

Will do,John,I'll try to post lots of pics.

mark seven wrote:

BendingOak wrote:If you get a chance to, can you ask to see the inside of the hat?

Will do,John,I'll try to post lots of pics.

Sweet.

Fedora wrote:

Didn't Steve once send HJ a reblocked hat as a demo inorder to get permission to do the Mag HJs? I wonder if that hat on display is that hat?

I did have to send one in, so they could make sure my work was good enough, since Magnoli wanted to sell em'. They accepted my work, which was no surprise to me. My HJ looked better than their own. So, I got their permission to reblock them, etc.

I don't recall what happened to that hat though. I never got it back, and I don't think Indy Mag did either. Seems like we may have had them to send it on to a customer, not really sure. But very possible.

The hat in the display is the best looking stock HJ I have seen, outside the films. I am curious about it, in a big way.

I don't know why they would have the heavier felt in the store though. Unless they decided they liked it better once Magnoli ordered his run. He does use HJ and not the factory for his hats.....Fedora

It would be funny if the HJ on display was Steve's Magnoli fedora.

I'm gonna have to go down there again soon. I must admit that when I visited SAB with Mark Seven, I was a but confused by the revelation of "another poet" - I really wished we'd asked more questions.

I don't own a poet but I'm really curious to know what people receive when they order one...
Is there anyone who lives near London (or who doesn't mind travelling to London) who has bought a poet, either online or from the shop?

Ideally it would be nice to see if there is a difference between the product sold in the shop and online. Or is it like Mark Seven says, there's a display model and it's not for sale but it's one of the 'old batch'. Maybe that would explain why they say there's a waiting list - that way no one realizes that what they receive isn't the same as the display model. It was a size 53 - would that fit anyone on COW. I'd like to gauge their reaction if someone wanted to buy the display model.

I visited SAB the other day and was suprised to find that the 52 Poet was gone and in it's place was about a 60! Nice to look around the place except it doesn't hold the same magic now that it's not the same hat or the same shop that Ford and Spielberg went into. The bow on the ribbon was askew and although it felt thick, it wasn't so dissimilar to my Christy's to warrant spending nearly £200 on it. Being in the store did bring me one large question though.
There were several hats in there but most of them official looking or very flimsy. Was the Poet a one off looking like that, or were there loads of hats of that standard and due to Indiana it was kept on?

Did make me think of fanatics in ten years or so looking up the Adventurbilt and ooohing and aaahhing about the mystery of the hat. That thought ever strike you Mr. Delk?

Steve

Did make me think of fanatics in ten years or so looking up the Adventurbilt and ooohing and aaahhing about the mystery of the hat. That thought ever strike you Mr. Delk?

I doubt this will ever happen. Mainly because I have a big mouth, and the story has been told here, countless times.

The story of the CS fedora unlike the Raiders fedora has seen alot of daylight. We know more about the production of this hat, than any of the others.

I watched the CS film again last night, and I think we are lucky HJ was not chosen for the latest hat. They ain't what they used to be. And Indy looks better in a straighter hat anyways. It would have been a hard pill to swallow, if he had sported the stock HJ, complete with the atomic brim curl in back. Indy would have looked more like Jack Ruby in the infamous pic of him shooting Oswald. Fedora