'Off The Shoulder'

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:27 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:
RCSignals wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:.......

But looking back at binks pics and the movie shots it doesn't match up the shoulder on the nowak seems to just be really big but it droops over even more than the movie jacket...
....than the one jacket but there is more than one jacket that appears in the movie. Shoulder droop of the jacket isn't new exactly. The shoulder fit on that one is almost too snug.
Could you show me a pic where it does that then?

I don't save pics, but search is your friend, there have been a lot posted here and elsewhere. I think you know that though

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:29 pm

RCSignals wrote:I don't save pics, but search is your friend, there have been a lot posted here and elsewhere. I think you know that though

None of the ones you refer to;)

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:33 pm

So let me see if I've got everything straight. Tony didn't get a hero jacket to copy, he's called the leather wrong, and if he did get a jacket, it's totally unique and no other jacket in Raiders acts a thing like it.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:39 pm

http://www.legalmoviesdownloads.com/mov ... _Ark_1.jpg

In this photo already posted you can see the shoulder seam drop off the end of shoulder even though she's pulling on the front of the jacket, and we don't know if it's zipped.

(you shouldn't pick on Bink and how his jacket fits his shoulders you know

)

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:40 pm

crismans wrote:So let me see if I've got everything straight. Tony didn't get a hero jacket to copy, he's called the leather wrong, and if he did get a jacket, it's totally unique and no other jacket in Raiders acts a thing like it.

That's about it.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:50 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:Ohw ! I see what you're getting at, All this time I thought it was falling back but you mean off the shoulders like over the upper arms ?

thinking about your comment more. Yes falling back, back of the shoulder. This is partly how the jacket can be the same length as the front yet appear to be as long in the back as a jacket with a 25 or 26" back length.
Also yes, the shoulder seam does fall off the upper arms.....so you have seen photos of that after all....

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:53 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:Ohw ! I see what you're getting at, All this time I thought it was falling back but you mean off the shoulders like over the upper arms ?

thinking about your comment more. Yes falling back, back of the shoulder. This is partly how the jacket can be the same length as the front yet appear to be as long in the back as a jacket with a 25 or 26" back length.
Also yes, the shoulder seam does fall off the upper arms.....so you have seen photos of that after all....

I've seen it in the pic that Bink posted, and a bit in the screenshots, but not alot. But my concern was in the examples bink posted his jacket falls back and the collar faces up. That was what I meant by not seeing it in the movie.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:07 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:......

I've seen it in the pic that Bink posted, and a bit in the screenshots, but not alot. But my concern was in the examples bink posted his jacket falls back and the collar faces up. That was what I meant by not seeing it in the movie.

I've seen photos of it from the movie. I'm sure you can find them if you want to. Of course you could just watch the movie again

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:24 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:Ohw ! I see what you're getting at, All this time I thought it was falling back but you mean off the shoulders like over the upper arms ?

But looking back at binks pics and the movie shots it doesn't match up the shoulder on the nowak seems to just be really big but it droops over even more than the movie jacket...

Ah, yeah, I thought it meant backwards, not off to the side as well! Bink's picture definitely shows his jacket going backwards, perhaps confusing me further. And it's not that the arm/shoulder seam is hanging over the shoulder like a CS jacket, it's more that the jacket is cut with a bigger collar, I think? I don't know if that's what everyone means or not, but I definitely agree that this is a common trait of Raiders' jackets. I think Holt once said his super accurate Wested didn't fall off the shoulders, but I think he nailed the behaviour just right.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:26 pm

crismans wrote:So let me see if I've got everything straight. Tony didn't get a hero jacket to copy, he's called the leather wrong, and if he did get a jacket, it's totally unique and no other jacket in Raiders acts a thing like it.

Don't forget it's too short also...........

Baldwyn · Post by **Baldwyn** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:36 pm

crismans wrote:So let me see if I've got everything straight. Tony didn't get a hero jacket to copy, he's called the leather wrong, and if he did get a jacket, it's totally unique and no other jacket in Raiders acts a thing like it.

I believe Tony got a hero jacket, even called the shrunken lamb correctly (although I won't be getting that leather because I want a more durable hide), and his jacket is very representable. But I think this discussion is just trying to understand the latest thing and make sure we're not getting caught up in buzz words. I find myself wanting to get the TN just because it's "the only jacket that falls off the shoulder" without really getting it. It sounds cool in text that it's the only jacket cut in its wacky "Raiderness" way...but does it translate into absolute need for me? (oh probably

)

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:39 pm

You do that by using the Img button

but remember: only 6 pictures per thread so links is actualy not such a bad idea

Regards, Geert

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:43 pm

Neutronbomb, we all have to learn how to do that sooner or later, no need to be embarrased

Regards, Geert

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:18 pm

Baldwyn wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:Ohw ! I see what you're getting at, All this time I thought it was falling back but you mean off the shoulders like over the upper arms ?

But looking back at binks pics and the movie shots it doesn't match up the shoulder on the nowak seems to just be really big but it droops over even more than the movie jacket...
Ah, yeah, I thought it meant backwards, not off to the side as well! Bink's picture definitely shows his jacket going backwards, perhaps confusing me further. And it's not that the arm/shoulder seam is hanging over the shoulder like a CS jacket, it's more that the jacket is cut with a bigger collar, I think? I don't know if that's what everyone means or not, but I definitely agree that this is a common trait of Raiders' jackets. I think Holt once said his super accurate Wested didn't fall off the shoulders, but I think he nailed the behaviour just right.

It does mean backwards, as in Binks photos, but yes it also hangs past the shoulder at the arm

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:20 pm

Baldwyn wrote:........but does it translate into absolute need for me? (oh probably )

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:25 am

Interestingly the "Temple" jacket (I'm assuming that is the name for the one with the right collar lapel always hanging low) could do that as a result of the same effect. However, in its case, it is also uneven across the soulder part of the pattern, so the effect is it not only falls off the shoulder, but prefers to do so off ONE SIDE.

Would this make sense? Yes.
Do I like proposing rhetorical questions to myself and answering? Yes, I do.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:16 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote:Interestingly the "Temple" jacket (I'm assuming that is the name for the one with the right collar lapel always hanging low) could do that as a result of the same effect. However, in its case, it is also uneven across the soulder part of the pattern, so the effect is it not only falls off the shoulder, but prefers to do so off ONE SIDE.

Would this make sense? Yes.
Do I like proposing rhetorical questions to myself and answering? Yes, I do.

At this point it's certainly possible. Yes it is.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:41 am

I'm quite surprised that the fact that Nowak is cutting these with longer neck to shoulder span is being treated as such a big deal, if it's important to you, just order the jacket a bit bigger!

The major thing about his shoulders is that the top seam is further back on the jacket by an inch or so making it fall backwards. THAT is the important issue.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:58 am

If you're referring to the B&W Raven Bar photo, I believe that is an optical illusion based on perspective. Try turning the collar of a jacket and you can duplicate it easily.

- Mac

No my friend, the same thing appears in many more scenes of the movie so I don't think it's an illusion. I think it's a result of careless distressing.

Also let's not forget that, if we take it for a fact that there were at least two jackets (temple & hawaii), so far I have not seen any convincing photos of the temple jacket that have the "off shoulder" effect. For the hawaii jacket, I can admit it.

However, no one notices that the TN jacket of our Raskolnikov which created a certain hype around here does not have the off shoulder effect?

Also, for all I know if you pull your wested down the back, the shoulders will fall off your shoulders and if you don't touch it again it will stay there. I can assume that a G&B and a Todd's will behave the same way.

Guys, it's no rocket science, if you measure the distances from seam to seam on those jackets and they are the same, there is no way that those jackets will behave differently.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:19 am

You know, the same Nowak will behave a little differently on different people. Keep in mind I am not, nor have I ever professed to be, Harrison Ford. We have different body types. But for kicks, I asked a friend of mine who happened to be with me last night to try on my jacket. He has a different shoulder shape than I do (mine slope more) but we wear about the same size jacket. The collar reacted a bit differently on him, though it still fell back. It wasn't as dramatic as on me, but it was still noticeable. If I can try the experiment again this weekend when I have time to take some pics, I'll post them.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:07 am

Sorry, everytime I see this subject title, I can't help but think 'what, are we a fashion magazine now?!'

What is so interesting about all this is the very thing that seems to create this 'Indy' look with the jacket being 'off shoulder' is something I just can't stand myself. I hate the feel of a jacket sliding off my shoulders.

Years ago I HAD a Wested that re-created this very look....and it was my least favorite as I was constantly pulling it back up to my neck. I had the right look all the time, but it just wasn't for me!

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Regards! Michaelson

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:37 am

In that picture I just had put on the jacket, so there was no time for any 'effect'. But yes, it does fall back, although maybe not as much as Bink's. When does this happen? Whenever I raise my arms and let them fall again. It is a very funny thing but no uncomfortable at all. Anyway, I don't give it much importance...

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:01 am

I think the goat vs. shrunken lamb has something to do with initial drape ....the goat may take longer to conform to you...with the lamb I get more of the off the shoulder whenever moving etc...NB's analogy to a boat floating and moving is a good one.....no matter you'll love it more the longer you wear it...

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:21 am

See that is where your knowledge falls down. I HAVE worn a Nowak 1.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:23 am

I think the goat vs. shrunken lamb has something to do with initial drape ....the goat may take longer to conform to you...with the lamb I get more of the off the shoulder whenever moving etc...

Hatch, I think you are completely right. They are different leathers, and my goat is definitely much thicker than lambskin. They behave differently, that's for sure, but I am already loving it as you say

. And, yet, my jacket does fall back, so the pattern really matters too... For any reason, in my case, it tends to fall back much easier when I am wearing it half zipped. Maybe because the leather is stiffer and pulls backwards the rest of the jacket.
Neutronbomb, I am with you but, believe me, I don't feel discredited by Platon at all. This is, somehow, a very subjective matter and, as someone told before, it is a question of 'feeling'. After all, we are just pointing out things amiably. Thanks a lot anyway

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:25 pm

"Strawman"

- Mac

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:36 pm

neutronbomb wrote:
Kt Templar wrote:See that is where your knowledge falls down. I HAVE worn a Nowak 1.
Good thing I said, "to my knowledge" allowing you to respond appropriately

And really KT why haven't you mentioned this before, or did I miss that. Also, if it's not an issue for you, would you mind giving the provenance of the TN jacket you wore. I would think in your post addressing you thoughts on the matter it would've been appropriate to say, "no, no, no NB, when I tried on the jacket and handled it I didn't get that same impression at all, and in fact when I measured the seam and compared it to the Wested seams and then discussed it in detail with Peter, we realized that the seam construction of 1" difference is what is giving this effect and in discussing this further with Peter we concluded that if someone really want's this effect they should just order the jacket bigger because we're not going to change our pattern to reposition the seam 1" even if its a custom request".

That's how I would have addressed my position, but then that's just me.

Where's Mac when I need him to hollar out "strawman"

Sometimes, you just have to keep your powder dry.

I've not done a full review of 2 or 3 other vendors jackets that I have tried on and passed on quickly. Often because my opinon would be thought of as being biased. So I let it drop.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:32 pm

PLATON wrote:No my friend, the same thing appears in many more scenes of the movie so I don't think it's an illusion. I think it's a result of careless distressing.

These are all from the same shot, no cuts away. Notice how the collar tip goes from "pointy" in the first photo to less pointy in the second, to rounded in the third.

From the same shot you can see the striations below and parallel to the shoulder seam:

If you are saying one collar tip is not as rounded as the other on this jacket, I think that is fair, but I don't believe it's "pointy," and I think it's highly likely this jacket was used in Tunisia.

Again, sorry to go off topic.

- Mac

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:37 pm

Raskolnikov wrote:In that picture I just had put on the jacket, so there was no time for any 'effect'. But yes, it does fall back, although maybe not as much as Bink's. When does this happen? Whenever I raise my arms and let them fall again. It is a very funny thing but no uncomfortable at all. Anyway, I don't give it much importance...

I'm glad you clarified because that was my thought. I believed from the photo that you had either just put it on or had tugged it forward. You are standing slightly 'relaxed' as well, if you were standing more upright the effect would be more instant and more apparent. The back length would appear longer and in better place as well.
People who haven't experienced these particular jackets can only assume. The jacket doesn't have to be pulled back, it does this all by itself.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:41 pm

Kt Templar wrote:I'm quite surprised that the fact that Nowak is cutting these with longer neck to shoulder span is being treated as such a big deal, if it's important to you, just order the jacket a bit bigger!

The major thing about his shoulders is that the top seam is further back on the jacket by an inch or so making it fall backwards. THAT is the important issue.

You seem to think TN is 'cutting these' to create that effect. He is not, he is only duplicating the jacket.
The top seam is actually centered, and when first put on as you would a normal jacket is centered, it just doesn't stay there. He is not purposely placing the seam back an inch to create it. THAT is the point.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:49 pm

What about the Nowak jacket that is being duplicated? How will that one sit on the shoulders?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:54 pm

Kt Templar wrote:See that is where your knowledge falls down. I HAVE worn a Nowak 1.

So then you know the jacket does this first hand. You though sound like you don't want to believe it is the original jacket construction and pattern itself, that TN has created this effect in his jacket, and are looking for what he may have done to it. Why would he want to create this effect and for what purpose?
I can tell you that as a jacket maker his first inclination was to find why it was doing this and correct it. Thankfully he hasn't 'corrected' it across the board with the pattern.

Who's jacket did you try on, and what size was it?

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:32 pm

Raider S wrote:What about the Nowak jacket that is being duplicated? How will that one sit on the shoulders?

Who is this directed to ??.........? KT

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:32 pm

i think that Nowak possibly got the Hawaii jacket. That falls of the shoulders, at least it does in that one picture.

I prefer the Raven Bar jacket, which is demonstrably also the Flying Wing jacket.

That's all.

For me, and many others, that is 'The One' not the Hawaii.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:47 pm

Mac wrote:
PLATON wrote:No my friend, the same thing appears in many more scenes of the movie so I don't think it's an illusion. I think it's a result of careless distressing.
These are all from the same shot, no cuts away. Notice how the collar tip goes from "pointy" in the first photo to less pointy in the second, to rounded in the third.

If you are saying one collar tip is not as rounded as the other on this jacket, I think that is fair, but I don't believe it's "pointy," and I think it's highly likely this jacket was used in Tunisia.

Again, sorry to go off topic.

- Mac

I can't remember which shots reveal the odd collar tips best (i've been trying for days), but I know there are one or two times when both tips are clearly visible front he front, that you can see one tip is much more rounded. If I have time to watch the movie soon, I'll make a note of when it's apparent.
My point is, at least one jacket has one noticeably rounder collar tip.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:17 pm

What about the fact that different jackets are in more scenes or appear for more time or in better lighting than others?

Seems near impossible to say jacket "A" sits that much different than jacket "B" when you only see "B" from the back in a darkened room for five seconds. Or jacket "C" is different than jacket "A" when "C" is only viewed while the actor is running or in an action sequence.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:39 pm

Michaelson wrote:Sorry, everytime I see this subject title, I can't help but think 'what, are we a fashion magazine now?!'

What is so interesting about all this is the very thing that seems to create this 'Indy' look with the jacket being 'off shoulder' is something I just can't stand myself. I hate the feel of a jacket sliding off my shoulders.

Years ago I HAD a Wested that re-created this very look....and it was my least favorite as I was constantly pulling it back up to my neck. I had the right look all the time, but it just wasn't for me!

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Regards! Michaelson

My goodness - a reasonable viewpoint, at last. What is this doing here? $\:D/$

I don't particularly like the falling off the shoulders look or feel either. That's why when I chose an Indy jacket, I wanted one very close to the fim version, but better made.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:42 pm

Sorry, I'll try and do better next time....

Regard! Michaelson

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:55 pm

CM wrote:
My goodness - a reasonable viewpoint, at last. What is this doing here? $\:D/$

I don't particularly like the falling off the shoulders look or feel either. That's why when I chose an Indy jacket, I wanted one very close to the fim version, but better made.

Better made than what? The film version?

Post by **Holt** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:13 pm

yes I am sure he means exactly that.... the G/B huh CM?

CM · Post by CM » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:05 am

Indiana Holt wrote:yes I am sure he means exactly that.... the G/B huh CM?

If only it were that simple! Yes, better than the film jacket, obviously - even TN argues that point. But I also think the TN CS in goat would be pretty good. Better design and indestructible. Years ago when I first spoke with Peter, I asked him what hide was used in the LC film. Lamb he said. No way, I said. I want a jacket I can adventure in and (having had various lamb jackets which tore and frayed) I ordered goat. Better (stronger anyway) than the film LC jacket. I have never wanted the same jacket as the film one - but I understand those who do.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:09 am

Chewbacca Jones wrote

I can't remember which shots reveal the odd collar tips best (i've been trying for days), but I know there are one or two times when both tips are clearly visible front he front, that you can see one tip is much more rounded. If I have time to watch the movie soon, I'll make a note of when it's apparent.
My point is, at least one jacket has one noticeably rounder collar tip.

wrote

Here's one to help you

and another two

neutronbomb wrote

Platon, if you say you haven't seen convincing evidence, then I really don't know what to say to that. I pointed out in my above posts with links to your own posts in the "bantu wind" thread that clearly shows this. I even labeled the pictures that show this. It is clear the collar is has slid down. Did you just not look at the pictures, do you really not see the collar draping down in those "temple" pictures I pointed out? By saying that Wested's and other jackets will behave the same, you are ignoring the direct feedback provided on this thread by those who own both brands of jackets.

Rask himself said once he put the jacket on he completely gets the "off the shoulder", Platon why do you discredit him, he's the one wearing the jacket? We already know the jacket can move all around.

My friend, you misunderstood me. I am not disbelieving what the other guys are saying. I am just saying that the way the jacket behaves depends on how it is worn by its wearer and not necessarily the way it is constructed. There are shots of HF showing that the jacket is not off his shoulders.

What I meant to say by "non conclusive evidence" is that we can't take for granted that the TN construction is different in that respect UNLESS we professionally compare the patterns and find the differences. People who own both jackets (Wested and TN) may not care to compare because they own both jackets. Comparisons help those who seek to choose and buy.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:32 am

Just got my Nowak yesterday and man, that sucker rolls around on you like no jacket I've ever owned. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from my same sized Wested. Fit's like a glove, yet slides back and from side to side etc. as you move like a really light plasticy windcheater even though it's a solid-feeling leather jacket. Very odd.

SpeedRcrX · Post by **SpeedRcrX** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:26 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote:Just got my Nowak yesterday and man, that sucker rolls around on you like no jacket I've ever owned. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from my same sized Wested. Fit's like a glove, yet slides back and from side to side etc. as you move like a really light plasticy windcheater even though it's a solid-feeling leather jacket. Very odd.

Let's see that beauty!!!

;0

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:49 am

Couldn't get off that easy, huh?

I'm actually off to Japan in 11 hours (& sleeping for 8 of them!) so won't have a chance to take any pics until I return, I'm sorry. It IS beautiful though - it has grained up like crazy from just crumpling and sitting on it for a couple of hours last night.

SpeedRcrX · Post by **SpeedRcrX** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:00 am

Yojimbo Jones wrote:Couldn't get off that easy, huh?
I'm actually off to Japan in 11 hours

I'm even more jealous...

At the beginning of the week I was caught in the rain with my shrunken lamb. It put some nice character on the jacket.
Some smooth parts get a slight shrunken look to it, now (really really beautiful!!).

As for the "Off the shoulder" I nearly don't have that effect, must be how I'm built

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:13 pm

SpeedRcrX wrote:As for the "Off the shoulder" I nearly don't have that effect, must be how I'm built

Or you could just do what Ford did and wear it off your shoulder.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:40 pm

St. Dumas knows that's what Ford did because he was on the set telling him how to wear his jacket.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:44 pm

St. Dumas is just playin' with y'all.

(Or is he...?)

SpeedRcrX · Post by **SpeedRcrX** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:54 pm

St. Dumas wrote: Or you could just do what Ford did and wear it off your shoulder.

Well I like my jacket the way it is, so no thanks,