Club Obi Wan

Indiana Joosse wrote: What does this say about us?

That we probably are stich Nazi??

Indiana Joosse wrote: Hitler would have probably been a member.

Or a moderator.

Or a moderator.

I can be pretty certain that even if your comment was posted in jest it will most likely be taken with the utmost seriousness. You may want to add multiple smileys...unless you're not joking, in which case, look out.

Good Lord, Agent 5, did you lose a sense of humour in the last few days or what? First the 'laces too short' bit, and now this... ?
Oh, and !

Castor Dioscuri wrote:By the way, with regards to your post on jacket color, I don't think you'd be too happy with an Indy IV jacket if it's a darker color you're after. The studios must have really gone to town on it as it looks alot darker than what you'd get, even with the 'dark' CS hide. I think a Wested was the right choice here for you.

Ah, my preference on dark color is Raiders only.

I was also thinking of getting either a LC or CS jacket in addition -- I'd either get the TN CS, or washed goat Wested LC.

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:What I hear people saying are that the reason why Tonys jackets is better than Peters, is because of the pattern which Tony has direct access too, and Peter has lost.

What I'm thinking is that, Tony is already replicating whatever Peter did so long ago... So Wested IS better than Tony, because even Tony is copying from them - he he he....

Tell me one thing. Why is it worth spending between $675,- and $1000,- on something that is essentially a copy of a copy, and not made by the man who made the original (as far as I have understood people are buying Raiders-jackets from Tony). A real fun twist is that everybody that I've heard of have had corrections for the Nowak - so even though he has access to screenused jackets, people still don't think they are SA - THAT'S HILLARIOUS!!!

I know I'm provoking, but I just don't get it - I might just be dumb and narrowminded, but then please explain it to me

Does anyone have an answer to this? Or am I just rigth

Good Lord, Agent 5, did you lose a sense of humour in the last few days or what?

I got your and raise you

I definitely saw the humor in his post as well as yours but the mods may take it very seriously. I was basically just giving him a friendly warning that they may not see any humor in being compared to Hitler, even if it was meant as a joke.


Jakob,
I think there is much more going on now here than ever before. Many who used to be completely in search of THE jacket made by the guy who made them for the films are now just in search of a 'cool' jacket. It seems much of what made the board what it was years ago is changing a bit. We used to talk about screen accuracy as if it were the life blood of the board and now it seems we're seeing a shift to a more laid back approach to gear. We're now seeing terms like 'stitch nazi' and 'screen idiocy' used by the same people who used to be on a quest for screen accuracy. I don't know what happened along the way but there is definitely a shift. Maybe it's just not chic anymore or maybe the search was deemed unattainable so it was abandoned. I can't say, but what I can say is that your question has been posed here many times before and I don't think too many here want to answer that anymore. I think many have a view on your question but are just afraid to speak up because they'd be taking a side, which can be preceived as negative instead of just truthful. When you get down to it it's all about personal perference.

Any changes to Tony's raiders jacket had to be made because the original was such a peice of junk. I have never gotten a answer to the question that if Peter is THE raiders jacket maker why has he not been able to produce one yet.

Any changes to Tony's raiders jacket had to be made because the original was such a peice of junk.

Were you able to see it in person to gain that assessment or just going off what you've read and been told? Keep in mind also that all the jackets for Raiders were made in just days and were made as costume pieces, not real world items as most movie costumes are. Made for use for filming and not much after that.

Perhaps he has produced one, or many, and you just didn't know it.

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:A real fun twist is that everybody that I've heard of have had corrections for the Nowak - so even though he has access to screenused jackets, people still don't think they are SA - THAT'S HILLARIOUS!!!

I know I'm provoking, but I just don't get it - I might just be dumb and narrowminded, but then please explain it to me

You're greatly exaggerating - if you read the current threads about the TN Indy I jacket, most of the people who have one love it. Early on there was a great deal of criticism because it didn't have the piping on the pocket (which has since been corrected) and people didn't think the shrunken lamb looked accurate. But then they started grabbing close-ups of the pictures from the film and noticed that the shrunken lamb was almost identical to what they were seeing in the screen-grabs. So actually, while at one point people didn't think they were SA, that's changed and now most are satisfied.

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:Tell me one thing. Why is it worth spending between $675,- and $1000,- on something that is essentially a copy of a copy, and not made by the man who made the original (as far as I have understood people are buying Raiders-jackets from Tony).

That's an age-old debate around here - do you want something that looks identical to the original, or do you want the name? For a long time there were people buying Herbert Johnson hats because they wanted a hat by the original people, but by 2000, it was readily obvious that even though HJ had the name, the quality and look of their hats had gone way down hill and really weren't worth it anymore - that is, until Magnoli Clothiers and Adventurebilt hats got together and started making GOOD Herbert Johnsons.

You're assuming that just because somebody has the name that they'll be able to make something authentic, and that's a big mistake. If I had to choose between name and authenticity, I'd choose authenticity ANY DAY. Because while Wested may have an authentic name tag, the rest of their product leaves something to be desired in terms of screen accuracy. -M

Thanks for your answer agent5.

That's all good points Mulceber.

- Exaggerations where on purpose. But I really think that it's real, not something I made up.

agent 5

.........or maybe the search was deemed unattainable so it was abandoned.

i've bought over $2K worth of jackets from wested in the last 2+ years which i do not wear anymore......the best of the bunch was a custom pre-washed veg tanned raiders which is a keeper and a testament that wested can make jackets to my specs. the last one was their washed goat raiders, which now resides with pa pa. are both at a level of authentic appearance as my TN 1? not even close....but great jackets none the less. when i see pics of indy climing on the flying wing or when he's approaching the golden idol.....i see my jacket. that's all i wanted all these years. is the TN 1 a significant cost.......on relative terms to how much i've spent on this quest and how much more i would have spent......its a drop in the bucket. a big key to 'abandoning' the original maker is when i ordered a jacket.....it always felt the same as when i threw all my chips down on red and spun the roulette wheel. i don't think thats fair to the customer NOW.....cuz big tony has spoiled me

btw.......my jacket was cut and constructed in under 24 hours.....like the original jacket....but mine isn't "junk" (out of tony's mouth, not mine)

[/quote] Agent 5
Keep in mind also that all the jackets for Raiders were made in just days and were made as costume pieces, not real world items as most movie costumes are. Made for use for filming and not much after that.[/quote]

You just proved my point about the orginal jackets. Lets see some of those Westeds that are exactly like the orginal. How many people have gotten exactlly what they wanted from Wested the first time. I'll bet not many. I would say that the people who love their Nowaks have spent more trying to get what they want from Wested than the cost of a Nowak. I wish Tony would have been here in 2003, could have saved me some closet space.

han, i agree with you 100%....but that's cuz i'm an authenticity fanatic....(i'm getting tired of calling myself a stitch nazi ).

if you're not into the details to the degree that i am......a wested is THE raiders jacket.

i remember how happy i was in 2006 when i got my first authentic brown raiders jacket from wested. i fell in love with it right away and to me, it was THE jacket..........then this section of COW ruined my life forever





kiddin.......it's friday.......

btw.......my jacket was cut and constructed in under 24 hours.....like the original jacket

Absolutley irrelevant, but if it makes you feel good, well...then good. You cannot compare the originals to something sold with the highest quality materials as Tony does. They'd better be for the price. You also cannot make the comparrison from original jackets to the current Westeds. Wested was called last minute to make all the jackets for the film in only days and they weren't meant to last past filming, hence the aluminum zippers, shoddy stitching, etc. Same as most costume parts in most films. In fact, as you may know, most costumes look fabulous on film but in person are just thrown together. This is filmmaking. Most of the Star Wars stuff looks very questionable in person. On film it looks amazing. Same goes for Indy's stuff. Tony seems to take a different approach to standard costuming. His stuff is high end and is sold as such to those off the street or to studios making movies and that is a good thing. Also to take into consideration is the fact that most jackets made for Raiders were used continuously for various stunts, putting them through the ringer.
I cannot argue Peter's track record. In fact, I've been outspoken of his foul-up's for years. Although I admire his willingness to make us custom jackets at a very reasonable price, you will be hard pressed to get all you ask for in one order. I've (and many others) asked that he just check his finished jackets against the order forms before they're shipped but that went unheard. It seems now that for reasons unknown, Wested is actually getting better at this. Many of the jackets I've seen lately are looking better than ever. It just took years to get here as pointed out, where Tony's approach is different. I hope Wested keeps it up.
One question I pose is that IF Wested would give you what you wanted out of any jacket for their standard price would you still be going with the Nowak?
I'm seeing a rise in an incredible level of fanatical praise over Tony which happened when AB came onto the scene. It's a bit overboard. This happens often when the new kid on the block comes to town. I'm not at all saying praise for a newly liked item is not warranted, but I think it's safe to say it sometimes gets out of control. Tony is a vendor and he makes jackets. He is not the second coming. If someone doesn't like his product for any reason people are practically begging to know how this can be. It's simple. It's not what they thought it was going to be and don't like it. Same as many feel your Westeds are sub-par compared to the Nowak. I find it sort of overboard that some are practically begging for those who don't like it to give it a second chance, almost like they take it personally if someone doesn't like it. As I said, it's all up to personal preference. Some may like their cheaper Westeds better than any Nowak and there is nothing wrong with that. Some may like their Nowak better than any jacket ever and that's okay too. In the end, it's only a jacket. That perspective must be kept. It's just a jacket people, not a Harry Potter invisibility cloak or a version of Excalibur, but from what everyone can tell, a very nice jacket.

agent5 wrote: I'm seeing a rise in an incredible level of fanatical praise over Tony which happened when AB came onto the scene. It's a bit overboard. This happens often when the new kid on the block comes to town.

I think you are on to something here!

You also cannot make the comparrison from original jackets to the current Westeds.

from what we know historically, we cannot. from wested's marketting perspective of having the same patterns, we can.

but i totally agree with you on all the screen-used props. most that i have seen in person are junk and its hard to believe that 'movie-magic' made them look so good........case in point - buck rogers (tv series), laser gun. its all i wanted when i was a kid. when i saw the actual tv prop.....it was horrible.

One question I pose is that IF Wested would give you what you wanted out of any jacket for their standard price would you still be going with the Nowak?

as much a fan of TN that i am......if this were the case, peter would be my only choice.

That perspective must be kept. It's just a jacket people, not a Harry Potter invisibility cloak or a version of Excalibur, but from what everyone can tell, a very nice jacket

it's a jacket that i've been searching for for 2 years. i thought i had it with todd's custom but the search went on as the break-in period morphed into something else. i'll uncork a bottle of bubbley if i want to as i've found 'englightenment'.

the Hitler joke was a very stupid move.

I say this once.pay attention.

I dont think it is funny that the admin/moderators who try to moderate 2700 people in their free time is compared to an evil person who took lifes of millions of people!

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:What I hear people saying are that the reason why Tonys jackets is better than Peters, is because of the pattern which Tony has direct access too, and Peter has lost.

What I'm thinking is that, Tony is already replicating whatever Peter did so long ago... So Wested IS better than Tony, because even Tony is copying from them - he he he....

Tell me one thing. Why is it worth spending between $675,- and $1000,- on something that is essentially a copy of a copy, and not made by the man who made the original (as far as I have understood people are buying Raiders-jackets from Tony). A real fun twist is that everybody that I've heard of have had corrections for the Nowak - so even though he has access to screenused jackets, people still don't think they are SA - THAT'S HILLARIOUS!!!

I know I'm provoking, but I just don't get it - I might just be dumb and narrowminded, but then please explain it to me

Actually the Nowak is a copy of an original, not of a copy.

Not everyone has asked for 'changes', but you are right, it's funny that people do that. There were many jackets used in the movie, and every one seems to have been different. No wonder the original maker doesn't know which to make ;-) and no wonder everyone 'sees' something different. The search has no end.

I get it it, you don't like the TN jacket, but you do like the Wested. that's OK, but why don't you just buy a Wested and be happy with it?

RCSignals wrote:
Actually the Nowak is a copy of an original, not of a copy.

Hence the one you will get if you buy one from him (as I don't imagine he sells any of his screen-used), is a copy of a copy.

I haven't said I didn't like Tony or his products. What I have said is that I don't understand what all the hype is about - to me it seems that all people do is complain about them anyhow. And if they don't complain, it's because they had alterations done (alterations to Tonys SA design), which means it's their idea of SA and not (nessesarily) SA according to Tony (who must know what is SA).

And, I have a wonderfull Wested (Raiders-style) in Horsehide - very durable, very comfy and SA just to my liking

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:

agent5 wrote: I'm seeing a rise in an incredible level of fanatical praise over Tony which happened when AB came onto the scene. It's a bit overboard. This happens often when the new kid on the block comes to town.

I think you are on to something here!

the converse is also true.

No, the one you get from him is a copy of an original. If he was selling his screen-used, you'd be buying an original. Therefore, if you buy the ones he is selling, you're buying a copy of an original.

What I have said is that I don't understand what all the hype is about - to me it seems that all people do is complain about them anyhow.

As I said, that's not true. You have whiskeyman who's not happy with the product he received (due to the leather, not because he questions its screen-accuracy), you have Chris King (who says it looks great in photo's but not as good in person) and you have a bunch of people (most of whom don't own one) complaining. If you look at the people who actually own an Indy I, they are, on the whole, very satisfied. Ask _, ask Indiana G - both of these people are fanatics with regard to the Raiders jacket and both of them are very satisfied.

And, I have a wonderfull Wested (Raiders-style) in Horsehide - very durable, very comfy and SA just to my liking

That's very nice, I too am happy with my wested. You've heard from us the reasons why Nowak's jackets are more popular than Peter's, but it seems like you still don't understand. At this point, I think it's clear that there's no way you're going to be able to understand from just a description from other people. Thus, I think you have two options: you can decide that you aren't going to understand it and accept that or you can pony up the money and invest in a Nowak jacket. Because I think at this point, experiencing one in person is the only way you're going to understand what other people see in these things.

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:

RCSignals wrote:
Actually the Nowak is a copy of an original, not of a copy.

Hence the one you will get if you buy one from him (as I don't imagine he sells any of his screen-used), is a copy of a copy.

I haven't said I didn't like Tony or his products. What I have said is that I don't understand what all the hype is about - to me it seems that all people do is complain about them anyhow. And if they don't complain, it's because they had alterations done (alterations to Tonys SA design), which means it's their idea of SA and not (nessesarily) SA according to Tony (who must know what is SA).

And, I have a wonderfull Wested (Raiders-style) in Horsehide - very durable, very comfy and SA just to my liking

No. each one is still a copy of an original. If I buy one it won't be a copy of Indiana G's, for example.

There is no great 'hype' People comment positively about their TN in the same way they comment positively about their newly acquired Wested, Wings, etc.
If you are only reading complaints, you haven't read much yet, but yes, particularly in the beginning, there were a lot of complaints, all from people who had only seen pictures of a jacket. Some of those complainers have changed their minds after ordering one. Others still haven't ordered and still complain.

I'm still not clear what your complaint is.

Mulceber wrote:No, the one you get from him is a copy of an original. If he was selling his screen-used, you'd be buying an original. Therefore, if you buy the ones he is selling, you're buying a copy of an original.

But Tony's "original" is a copy of Westeds "original" (as they must have been an inspiration at least to the Indy I) => a copy of a copy.

---

Anyhow - it seems that I'm wrong on assuming that there is any hype, and that there is any problems with the Nowak Indy I. Actually I'm glad that I'm wrong! It would be sooo much money to spend on a jacket, with which you could not be happy.

Han Jones wrote:Any changes to Tony's raiders jacket had to be made because the original was such a peice of junk. I have never gotten a answer to the question that if Peter is THE raiders jacket maker why has he not been able to produce one yet.

I thought I read somewhere that that Peter took over the business sometime after the time period for when Wested produced an Indy jacket?

But Tony's "original" is a copy of Westeds "original" (as they must have been an inspiration at least to the Indy I) => a copy of a copy.

Wait a minute, Tony's original what? His original Indy IV jacket? Because he doesn't have an original Indy I jacket, he just copied the original jacket he found, changed some measurements to suit some people, and sent them out. Therefore, TN's Indy I jacket is a copy of an original. You could say that his Indy IV jacket is a copy of a copy, since the Indy IV jacket is inspired by the jacket from Raiders. But following that logic, you could argue that any Raiders jacket you get from Peter is a copy of a copy as well, since the Raiders jacket is inspired by the old A-2 flying jacket. -M

Mulceber wrote:
Wait a minute, Tony's original what? His original Indy IV jacket? Because he doesn't have an original Indy I jacket, he just took the copied the original jacket he found, changed some measurements to suit some people, and sent them out. Therefore, TN's Indy I jacket is a copy of an original. You could say that his Indy IV jacket is a copy of a copy.

Aha... So it's a copy, but it's not totally SA... My mistake, I thought all the original Raiders jackets where dead and gone - except for one at Skywalker Ranch...

No, when he was designing his Indy I jacket he was able to use of one of the original jackets from the movies to take measurements.

So it's a copy, but it's not totally SA...

Well you can get it totally SA - you can have it with Harrison Ford's exact measurements if you want, it's just that most people prefer to have it tailored to their measurements. -M

bigrex wrote:

Han Jones wrote:Any changes to Tony's raiders jacket had to be made because the original was such a peice of junk. I have never gotten a answer to the question that if Peter is THE raiders jacket maker why has he not been able to produce one yet.

I thought I read somewhere that that Peter took over the business sometime after the time period for when Wested produced an Indy jacket?

that's true, the originals were made by a predecessor company of Wested, not by Wested

RCSignals wrote:
I thought I read somewhere that that Peter took over the business sometime after the time period for when Wested produced an Indy jacket?

that's true, the originals were made by a predecessor company of Wested, not by Wested

I'm not sure where this comes from. Peter was the boss of Leather Concessionaires when they worked on Raiders. Leather Concessionaires became Wested Leather.

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:

Mulceber wrote:
Wait a minute, Tony's original what? His original Indy IV jacket? Because he doesn't have an original Indy I jacket, he just took the copied the original jacket he found, changed some measurements to suit some people, and sent them out. Therefore, TN's Indy I jacket is a copy of an original. You could say that his Indy IV jacket is a copy of a copy.

Aha... So it's a copy, but it's not totally SA... My mistake, I thought all the original Raiders jackets where dead and gone - except for one at Skywalker Ranch...

Tony's Raider is a copy of an original. It's not a copy of a copy.

What do you mean by 'not totally SA'?

Can we put you in the 'I'll see it when I believe it' camp?

A comparison. Those of us buying a ToD from Wested will be buying a copy of an original, not a copy of a copy. Peter did not make the original ToD jacket, but that doesn't make his offering a copy of a copy.

Are you asking all these questions to simply be 'provoking' or because you want to justify ordering a TN Raiders jacket?

Kt Templar wrote:

RCSignals wrote:
I thought I read somewhere that that Peter took over the business sometime after the time period for when Wested produced an Indy jacket?

that's true, the originals were made by a predecessor company of Wested, not by Wested

I'm not sure where this comes from. Peter was the boss of Leather Concessionaires when they worked on Raiders. Leather Concessionaires became Wested Leather.

that's exactly what I meant. Leather concessionaires was the predecessor company of Wested.

RCSignals wrote:
What do you mean by 'not totally SA'?

Can we put you in the 'I'll see it when I believe it' camp?

You said it yourself. He made some alterations to some measurements to suit some people - that can't be SA. But I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "to suit some people".

No, I have seen the photos - I'm well aware that it's very (completly?) SA - I think it looks good.

My business was to get a grip on the Hype about it, that's all...

the converse is also true.

Far from it. At the beginning people were questioning the Indy1 to death because so little was known about it. Once more info was made available it lessened the doubt. I see nothing wrong about perceptions based on whats available. This is what the forum is about. Discussion. It just seemed that some were taking it personally if someone had anything even remotely negative based on what they saw.
It seems there are two camps. The 'why are you bashing/saying anything negative' camp and the 'why are you defending it so heavily' camp. I like to keep it real. If you love it then there really is nothing wrong with explaining why and how much and if it just isn't your cup of tea then there really isn't any further explaining necessary other than you just don't like it. I will say what I feel based on what I see here in these pages. If and when I see one in person (and I really hope to soon) then I may or may not have a different opinion of it.
As I've said about when the over zealous praise of AB was in full swing, this is not a bashing of the vendor or the product, but a pointing out of the uber-praise itself. When I spoke to Steve/Marc about that they understood fully. Although the Nowak praise is nowhere near the level of the AB praise when it was in full swing (yet), some is just a bit overboard in my opinion.

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:

RCSignals wrote:
What do you mean by 'not totally SA'?

Can we put you in the 'I'll see it when I believe it' camp?

You said it yourself. He made some alterations to some measurements to suit some people - that can't be SA. But I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "to suit some people".

No, I have seen the photos - I'm well aware that it's very (completly?) SA - I think it looks good.

My business was to get a grip on the Hype about it, that's all...

The 'alterations' he has made are for individuals at their request. they don't carry over to every jacket. If you order one you can request it be made exactly as the jacket he had to examine and measure.
Less undone stitching, tears, etc etc.

Indiana Holt wrote:
I dont think it is funny that the admin/moderators who try to moderate 2600+ people in their free time is compared to an evil person who took lifes of millions of people

C'mon, how can you even think that it wasn't a joke????? I can't believe it!

RCSignals wrote:
The 'alterations' he has made are for individuals at their request. they don't carry over to every jacket. If you order one you can request it be made exactly as the jacket he had to examine and measure.
Less undone stitching, tears, etc etc.

There it is again! Why make alterations if it's perfect (so many think it is)*? Is it because it's not that perfect after all? Or is it just because people have different perceptions of SA?

*I presume that you don't spend 675-1000$ if you are not going for SA as the main thing

If they do have different perceptions, then this discussion is meaningless

strones.dont push it.

I am not in the mood for talking about this.


it was a bad joke and I dont see the humor in that.we have german staff here.so be carefull!

There it is again! Why make alterations if it's perfect (so many think it is)*? Is it because it's not that perfect after all? Or is it just because people have different perceptions of SA?

As far as I know, most if not all of the "alterations" are just changing the measurements so that the jacket will fit the customer. You can have a 100% SA jacket, but it wouldn't fit you. It would fit Harrison Ford 30 years ago, but not you now. Therefore, most people are having the jacket tailored to their measurements, thus compromising the screen accuracy a little bit, but making it a jacket they'll get more enjoyment out of. I haven't heard really anything about any other alterations, apart from the addition of piping to the pockets after TN forgot to add that to the first jacket he sold. -M

Mulceber wrote:

There it is again! Why make alterations if it's perfect (so many think it is)*? Is it because it's not that perfect after all? Or is it just because people have different perceptions of SA?

As far as I know, most if not all of the "alterations" are just changing the measurements so that the jacket will fit the customer. You can have a 100% SA jacket, but it wouldn't fit you. It would fit Harrison Ford 30 years ago, but not you now. Therefore, most people are having the jacket tailored to their measurements, thus compromising the screen accuracy a little bit, but making it a jacket they'll get more enjoyment out of. I haven't heard really anything about any other alterations, apart from the addition of piping to the pockets after TN forgot to add that to the first jacket he sold. -M

Gottcha!!

perhaps this analogy will help:

wested patterns - its ancestor is the Lee Keppler/G&B offering used to develop their LC jacket. their original raiders patterns are long gone
G & B expedition - patterns are from notes of a Raiders stunt jacket
Todd's custom - patterns are from the same notes as the G & B
Magnoli Jacket - directly patterned from a G&B expo
Indy 4- directly patterned from the Lee Keppler/G&B offering
TN Indy 1 - directly patterned from a jacket brought to tony by a serious player in the IJ franchise

this is how i understand it so please correct me if i am wrong.

there is no definitive SA. i have come to know that now. its basically individual preference. the definitive SA is a piece of junk jacket that uncle george stares at in a climate controlled glass case while he sips on his starbucks frappaccino's at skywalker ranch. maybe we oughta just start asking each other "how good is your SA?"

"hey man, there's KT and Holt......man, they got really high SA....i'll get there someday after i sell my leather attractions jacket.... "

hey agent 5, you're saying the TN hype is not as big as the AB hype.....you haven't given me a chance yet

....just kidding.....

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:

RCSignals wrote:
The 'alterations' he has made are for individuals at their request. they don't carry over to every jacket. If you order one you can request it be made exactly as the jacket he had to examine and measure.
Less undone stitching, tears, etc etc.

There it is again! Why make alterations if it's perfect (so many think it is)*? Is it because it's not that perfect after all? Or is it just because people have different perceptions of SA?

*I presume that you don't spend 675-1000$ if you are not going for SA as the main thing

If they do have different perceptions, then this discussion is meaningless

I think you already know the answer. Individuals had a concept/perception of the jacket. Even an original does not match it. This does not reflect on the jacket tony had, it reflects on individual perception.

At this point the discussion is becoming circuitous

agent5 wrote:

the converse is also true.

Far from it. At the beginning people were questioning the Indy1 to death because so little was known about it. Once more info was made available it lessened the doubt. I see nothing wrong about perceptions based on whats available. This is what the forum is about. Discussion. It just seemed that some were taking it personally if someone had anything even remotely negative based on what they saw.
It seems there are two camps. The 'why are you bashing/saying anything negative' camp and the 'why are you defending it so heavily' camp. I like to keep it real. If you love it then there really is nothing wrong with explaining why and how much and if it just isn't your cup of tea then there really isn't any further explaining necessary other than you just don't like it. I will say what I feel based on what I see here in these pages. If and when I see one in person (and I really hope to soon) then I may or may not have a different opinion of it.
As I've said about when the over zealous praise of AB was in full swing, this is not a bashing of the vendor or the product, but a pointing out of the uber-praise itself. When I spoke to Steve/Marc about that they understood fully. Although the Nowak praise is nowhere near the level of the AB praise when it was in full swing (yet), some is just a bit overboard in my opinion.

Actually the converse is also true, and you've agreed with that.

It seems there are two camps. The 'why are you bashing/saying anything negative' camp and the 'why are you defending it so heavily' camp.

One camp is as vocal as the other, however the 'why are you defending it so heavily' camp would seem to be comprised mostly of those who have never seen an actual TN Raiders 1.

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:...........

Gottcha!!

So you are just 'provoking'

RCSignals wrote:

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:...........

Gottcha!!

So you are just 'provoking'

No, he appears to have understood the explanation.

Regards, Geert

Indiana G wrote:................
Indy 4- directly patterned from the Lee Keppler/G&B offering
.

I thought the Indy 4 was based on a Lee Kepler design which was made for Lee by G+B but not used as a basis for the LC jacket, so it went to storage on the Ranch. It was not from a G+B offering.

gwyddion wrote:

RCSignals wrote:

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:...........

Gottcha!!

So you are just 'provoking'

No, he appears to have understood the explanation.

Regards, Geert

OK, so it is a 'Got you' Gottcha not a 'Gottcha' Gottcha

RCSignals wrote:

gwyddion wrote:

RCSignals wrote:

Jakob Emiliussen wrote:...........

Gottcha!!

So you are just 'provoking'

No, he appears to have understood the explanation.

Regards, Geert

OK, so it is a 'Got you' Gottcha not a 'Gottcha' Gottcha

I guess so ;-)

Regards, Geert

huh?