Club Obi Wan

Actually, that's the SECOND time old friend Cassidy and I have done this in the past two days!

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Actually, that's the SECOND time old friend Cassidy and I have done this in the past two days!

Regards! Michaelson

Why yes, thanks, I'd love a cup of coffee.

...Anyhoo back to topic.

Uh, how did you.......never mind.



Regards! Michaelson

Below is a picture to illustrate my point. It is an old A-2 jacket made during WW2 that has pointy & curved collar tips. Some collector's would think that the jacket is the "bee knees". Others would call it a piece of junk. Regardless, most jacket makers would not replicate this though. I’m not saying that the OG Raiders jackets have mistakes as startling as my example, but they’re there, without a doubt. Cheers

I would like to know this as well! If the jacket really blows me away after seeing a lot of pics, I'd definitely be willing to make the investment...somehow......hmmm...ebay here I come to pawn off my belongings!

Indiana G wrote:

The original Raiders jackets were costume pieces. Some of us are after “costume” jackets & some of us aren’t. The CS jacket was different from the rest because it was a “costume” jacket & a “real” jacket. Tony makes real jackets. If Tony did indeed get his hands on the “hero” jacket from GL’s office (it went to a few prospective jacket makers before production of CS), I’m sure he’s found a bunch of things that would be considered “mistakes” from a real world point of view. The Terry Leonard jacket that was used for the G&B Expedition was full of those mistakes. G&B corrected them because they weren’t going to let a jacket like that out of their doors. A guy that wants real world wear ability can appreciate the improvements G&B made. A guy that wants a costume piece condemns those “improvements”. This is purely speculative on my part, but I would have to agree that Tony won’t let those “mistakes” out his doors. He’s got too much pride. Cheers

that is exactly it rundquist. these "improvements" leave a poor taste in mouths of collectors such as myself. the end product is better, but that's not what i wanted. though i love my TN jacket, a little part of me wishes that the jacket was made exactly how ford's was without reinforcements and extra facings (i don't know if these facings were on the hero CS jacket but the LC jacket did not have these). this facet can also be seen with david morgan's shorter handled whips, the abomination that a wested had become when people started requesting facings here and reinforcements there, and i'm gonna throw HJ into the mix cuz frankly, what they've managed to turn their hat into wouldn't even be good enough for the recepticle that i place my dogs eliminations into.

$1K is a good chunk of change, but i would definitely partake if what was being replicated was the hero jacket....and on top of that, all of the "real world deficiencies" were preserved with the offering (ie - if one strap was shorter than the other one, thats what i want).........if any mods are built into, it's just gonna be a really expensive expo imo.

I was never saying that one view was right & another was wrong (even though I obviously have my personal views). I was just making the point that no matter what Tony does, some group here is going to be displeased. The only issue/case that I'll take up is the Wested. The "commercial" Wested jacket has only gotten better over the years. Although Wested has always done custom work, things like leather facings were part of their older jackets. It’s been through the requests of fans over the yeas that the Wested Indy jacket has evolved into something that is more screen accurate. The one’s that Lee Keppler commissioned from Peter back in the late 80’s (pre LC), were short and had shoulder pads (the infamous “Bell Hop” jacket). Lee sent him one of his Flight Suits (G&B) creations to help get the details better. The Current Wested is light years away from that. Cheers

I wonder if the lining will be accurate too. I hope there is an option to have it plain and without a label. I wouldn't want one with numbers or messages from Tony embroidered inside.

agent5 wrote:Could Tony be doing this and actually have been given or purchased a screen used Crystal Skull or Last Crusade jacket and just be calling it a Raiders jacket?

Crystal Skull? Why would Tony buy one of his own jackets?

Coming from the viewpoint of a...concerned citizen here people need to start watching the muckraking and choose their words more wisely until we know what Nowak has in store.

He hasn't officially confirmed either the project or the price yet.

Very true....

Cassidy wrote:Coming from the viewpoint of a...concerned citizen here people need to start watching the muckraking and choose their words more wisely until we know what Nowak has in store.

He hasn't officially confirmed either the project or the price yet.

He hasn't?


So where did the price everyone is quoting come from and the "limited run" number of 888?

Ok, now I'm totally confused.......

PH - somebody a page or so back called him.

He's registered here and it wouldn't hurt for him to post. If we all behaved nicely I'm sure he'd answer our questions...problem is I doubt we call all behave nicely.

This is interesting news, and once oficially announced, I will be keen to find out the real details about both the jacket, and the sales price.

Until then, I can say that I don't have a problem paying for quality. The Nowak jacket (for CS) is quality, and durability. I think the price for that is fair.

Now, for a lamb skin jacket (regardless of stitching quality) I have a hard time, because unles I wear it infrequently (and in that case, why get one?) it will be in poor (well much worse to say the least) condition as compared to a Nowak CS jacket, which is made from a more durable hide.

Now before we get into a holy war over hide strengths and wear charecteristics, understand that my point of reference is from Schott. I went with a 'standard' design, altered the pattern slightly, and had it made from Front Quarter Horse Hide (these things all increased the price, and understandibly so). That jacket was well over a grand, but regardless of what I do to it (short of actually dumping on my bike a 40+ MPH) it will be there, and will likely be there after I'm ash. I think it may actually stop a bullet...

So, the Nowak I'm quite certain is a very well made jacket with attention to detail second only to a VERY select few whose names have been mentioned already (and in similar, if not higher price points). Will a Lamb jacket from him be worth that to me? Dificult to say at this point... I always wanted the 'real' Raider's jacket; and this may be the best way to get that. If it ends up being "that good" I suppose I'll belly up to the bar and drop my coin....

Time will tell...

PS Even for the the recently (and officially) announced LC NH/Wested jacket I may go with a more durable hide than the Lamb. In some ways just to justify the expense, and have something a bit more 'permanent' in my eyes. Even though it is not "screen accurate"(other than the cut). I have the Todd's lamb for "Screen Acccurate" and I can 'distres' that or have it altered at a tailor if I choose to without loosing any sleep over it. When it finally dies, I can get another, and destroy that too...

I am the last one to throw "good money after bad" and if you have been waiting for the difinitive raiders jacket (and spent thousands trying to find it) this may be just the thing for you. I reserve my final decision until I see what Mr. Nowak has to offer us, and at what price...

PS Even for the the recently (and officially) announced LC NH/Wested jacket I may go ...

you mean TOD?

is this something new?....now where would peter get the LC patterns from for a prototype....oh wait a minute, uhm,.....nevermind......

YES!!! Sorry Temple of Doom! I was a bit confused there...

Rundquist wrote:Prescott makes great points that nobody has addressed.

I replied to one of his points.

I don't know what Nowaks version will be made of, but I know it'll be the utmost quality. Not what some people want in a Raiders jacket, but we'll see how it turns out.

Forgive me if this point was raised in the previous 4 pages on this topic, but I can't help but believe we will all benefit from TN making this jacket (if what is rumored about an original jacket being obtained is true). The other manufacturers cannot help but be influenced by the new jacket. Whether it be due to requests from fans to change details, reading the endless pages of dissection/disension/discussion that will occur or by all the pictures that will inevitably be posted.

However, it would be very humorous indeed if the jacket turned out to be significantly different than what many may assume it will look like. Then let the games begin....


Peace.

Can't believe no one has done this yet!

;0

What about the history guys? The chronological series of events that brought this jacket to light. How did it survive destruction? Who's hands did it pass through. I'm betting that there's some lost and forgotten and rediscovery involved. This is one bedtime story we haven't yet heard. For all the talk of prices and providence, this project has the potential to answer so many questions and open a Pandora's box of questions we never thought to ask. A year ago would you have believed that an original Raiders would find its way into the hands of someone willing to copy it? Think of how long this journey has been, from Lee discovering Wested to now. In all that time we've had to rely on screen caps and hand measurements. Now the real deal. I'm hoping to read the entire story soon...

-P-

Absolutely Prescott; I'm sure there could well be an interesting story about to unfold. As people have commented, however, is it likely that a screen-used jacket would be copied 100%, including all of its "mistakes"? It's unlikely, especially from a professional like TN, which means nothing is ever going to be truly SA anyway, despite the price tag. I guess I'm in one of those glass is half empty moods today

As long as improvements are invisible and the jacket retains a 100% SA appearance both on the inside and outside of the jacket, then I'm all for reinforcement. Who wouldn't want the option of a jacket that looks exactly the same, but is more durable? But then, is invisible reinforcement possible or just something I've made up?

Wouldn't reinforcing the jacket and/or making it out of a tougher leather, severely change the drape of it? Why can't it just be lambskin like the originals? I mean if I'm gonna shell out a grand for this jacket then surely I'm not gonna use it to go adventuring in. I would use a G&B or US Wings for that.

Richard

If Peter, who is copying the ToD jacket, were to make "improvements" on the design, more people than usual would be calling for his head.

The consensus seems that we all want a 1:1 copy of the original Temple of Doom jacket, down to the hardware and leather.

Why is this example any different?

Cassidy wrote:If Peter, who is copying the ToD jacket, were to make "improvements" on the design, more people than usual would be calling for his head.

The consensus seems that we all want a 1:1 copy of the original Temple of Doom jacket, down to the hardware and leather.

Why is this example any different?

couldn't have said it better myself. if i wanted a good sturdy jacket that will last a life time, i'd probably buy a plain premium leather black jacket.

when i want an indy jacket, i want exactly what was on ford's back.....but to my size of course.

i appreciate other people's desires for improved design and understand where they are coming from.....i don't agree, but i understand

Indiana G wrote:

Cassidy wrote:If Peter, who is copying the ToD jacket, were to make "improvements" on the design, more people than usual would be calling for his head.

The consensus seems that we all want a 1:1 copy of the original Temple of Doom jacket, down to the hardware and leather.

Why is this example any different?

couldn't have said it better myself. if i wanted a good sturdy jacket that will last a life time, i'd probably buy a plain premium leather black jacket.

when i want an indy jacket, i want exactly what was on ford's back.....but to my size of course.

i appreciate other people's desires for improved design and understand where they are coming from.....i don't agree, but i understand

hmm...that is a really interesting point!

This line of discussion gives very little incentive for the holders of the real screen used items to allow others to examine them. It would only blow up in their face as their hard work comes under our microscopes. Remember, very few will be able to look at Tony's Raider and Peter's Temple and be able to intelligently critique them against the originals. In fact, if you ask to see the original, they will just smile and say "trade secret".

-P-

another, valid point!

I ask myself, "Will the TN jacket use hide that is 50% better than G&B?" and "Will the TN jacket be 50% more screen accurate than the G&B?" and in both cases, even without seeing the TN jacket, I'm pretty confident that I already know the answer to those questions.

firstly, the hide is subjective and depends on what kind of collector you are. i for one don't like g&b's hides as they are too perfect and too resilant to be on anything indy....that's my opinion as a collector.

the TN jacket will only be more accurate if what he is indeed replicating is the HERO jacket.....not just another stunt jacket. again, this gem in itself will drive up the cost.

lastly, and something that only one other vendor offers, is some nice realistic distressing. that is art in itself........and the cost of art is always dependent on the buyer's appreciation for it

your right though on shop size and overheads......consumers don't really care about that, just the wares.

G is right - except that some of the stunt jackets are identical to the hero jacket and which hero jacket anyway - there were probably a couple?.

Remember there are also people like me whose only interest in the Indy jacket is that it looks cool and therefore want a real world version to wear in real life. Dressing up as a fantasy character is not everyone's idea of a good time. A Wings,and G&B jacket is as good a product as these people will need.

Indiana G wrote:

Cassidy wrote:If Peter, who is copying the ToD jacket, were to make "improvements" on the design, more people than usual would be calling for his head.

The consensus seems that we all want a 1:1 copy of the original Temple of Doom jacket, down to the hardware and leather.

Why is this example any different?

couldn't have said it better myself. if i wanted a good sturdy jacket that will last a life time, i'd probably buy a plain premium leather black jacket.

when i want an indy jacket, i want exactly what was on ford's back.....but to my size of course.

i appreciate other people's desires for improved design and understand where they are coming from.....i don't agree, but i understand

Well.....there are those of us in another camp, who are somewhat fans of the movies, and want a jacket that you can beat the cr-p out of, and if it looks pretty close to the movie(s), that's good enough.

Even in Manhattan, where the attention to fashion detail borders on the psychotic at times, if you put all 4 movie jackets on, most people could not tell the difference.

Anyhow, I believe we in the camp of "tastes great" - oops, I meant "Durabilty" - over the "SA" team - should never be forgot...

CM wrote:G is right - except that some of the stunt jackets are identical to the hero jacket and which hero jacket anyway - there were probably a couple?.

Remember there are also people like me whose only interest in the Indy jacket is that it looks cool and therefore want a real world version to wear in real life. Dressing up as a fantasy character is not everyone's idea of a good time. A Wings,and G&B jacket is as good a product as these people will need.

Yeah, I've never really thought that a "better" jacket could be produced, just different. In fact, in one of these threads I even "boasted" about putting one of my Expeditions in a head to head "quality" contest with a TK on the Queen Mary in November.

Rundquist wrote:

CM wrote:G is right - except that some of the stunt jackets are identical to the hero jacket and which hero jacket anyway - there were probably a couple?.

Remember there are also people like me whose only interest in the Indy jacket is that it looks cool and therefore want a real world version to wear in real life. Dressing up as a fantasy character is not everyone's idea of a good time. A Wings,and G&B jacket is as good a product as these people will need.

Yeah, I've never really thought that a "better" jacket could be produced, just different. In fact, in one of these threads I even "boasted" about putting one of my Expeditions in a head to head "quality" contest with a TK on the Queen Mary in November.

I'd be very interested to learn of the outcome and your thoughts. Since I've had my G&B, I've been of the opinion that I have a far better jacket than the one "Indy" used in the movie.

firstly, the hide is subjective and depends on what kind of collector you are. i for one don't like g&b's hides as they are too perfect and too resilant to be on anything indy....that's my opinion as a collector.

As a durability guy, all I can do is shake my head at that one.

Maybe my brain is too tiny to grasp the notion of "collecting" beaten-up/distressed Indy jackets...I think the fun is in the journey, where you get to tame a rugged beast like the G&B until it looks like an Indy that has had many tough adventures.

For mine, I return to the concept of finding the sweet spot in the market. Personally, I think it must lie somewhere around the G&B Expedition. Why? Because it's been made from the measurements of a real Indy jacket; it's handmade by a small(ish) team of professionals; and the hides G&B source are top-notch. Pretty compelling stuff.

I ask myself, "Will the TN jacket use hide that is 50% better than G&B?" and "Will the TN jacket be 50% more screen accurate than the G&B?" and in both cases, even without seeing the TN jacket, I'm pretty confident that I already know the answer to those questions.

In the first instance, we all know that G&B source GREAT hides, so I'd find it almost impossible to believe someone could find a hide that was 50% better. In the second instance, I find it equally hard to believe that, suddenly, a jacket could become 50% more screen accurate than the G&B, unless G&B made some collosal errors when measuring up that original Indy jacket - and somehow I really doubt that!

So that's the "Rob" litmus test: does it deliver 50% beyond where I think the current sweet spot is in the market, the G&B Expedition ($448-$468)? Based on design/manufacture and leather, I doubt it can.

Excellent post. Since G&B uses "A" graded hides exclusively, and is known for manufacturing to military specifications, I am not even sure where their product could be improved upon.

If someone wants purely SA, then based upon what was written about the G&B's lineage, then they would be sacrificing durability, which is unacceptable in my opinion.

Now as Rob said, if they were using the Hero jacket, it would not be "more" SA, just "also" SA, since both saw action on the screen.

bobjones wrote:Now as Rob said, if they were using the Hero jacket, it would not be "more" SA, just "also" SA, since both saw action on the screen.

To complicate things even further, I think there are different classifications of SA. To me, a copy of the dominant hero jacket worn clearly and frequently in the movie by Ford, has a higher SA value than a copy of a stunt jacket. For example, I could classify an accurate copy of the hero jacket, SA1 and an accurate copy of a stunt jacket, SA2.

So, to an SA nut like me, an accurate copy of the hero jacket will always be more desirable and valuable than an accurate copy of a stunt jacket.

Satipo wrote:

bobjones wrote:Now as Rob said, if they were using the Hero jacket, it would not be "more" SA, just "also" SA, since both saw action on the screen.

To complicate things even further, I think there are different classifications of SA. To me, a copy of the dominant hero jacket worn clearly and frequently in the movie by Ford, has a higher SA value than a copy of a stunt jacket. For example, I could classify an accurate copy of the hero jacket, SA1 and an accurate copy of a stunt jacket, SA2.

So, to an SA nut like me, an accurate copy of the hero jacket will always be more desirable and valuable than an accurate copy of a stunt jacket.

Fair point. But I think there were a couple of hero jackets used. So do we go SA1A and SA1B and then which hero jacket do you give preference to?
I think the quest to get the perfect jacket is fraught with problems and best left to the nuts (as you have described yourself.

CM wrote:So do we go SA1A and SA1B and then which hero jacket do you give preference to?

I dunno, I'm making this up as I go ...

Satipo wrote:

CM wrote:So do we go SA1A and SA1B and then which hero jacket do you give preference to?

I dunno, I'm making this up as I go ...

Good come back.

This is interesting news.

All things considered, if this new TN jacket ends up looking better than the Todd's Custom Jacket...I will be suprised.

I just do not see how whatever Tony makes available will be a much improved "Raiders" offering compared to what Todd currently makes available.

I look forward to pics.

Prescott wrote:This line of discussion gives very little incentive for the holders of the real screen used items to allow others to examine them. It would only blow up in their face as their hard work comes under our microscopes. Remember, very few will be able to look at Tony's Raider and Peter's Temple and be able to intelligently critique them against the originals. In fact, if you ask to see the original, they will just smile and say "trade secret".

-P-

Another reason to miss Noel...

What I need to say is this.

Suppose you are someone someone whom they hired to make a jacket for some film. You make the best jacket possible, give it to the film crew the film is shot, you don't keep the patterns and then everything is forgotten.

Many years later growing demand forces you to remember the patterns. You draw them again, make some mistakes but....

After making thousands efforts, making and selling thousands and thousands of jackets isn't it logical to assume that by the process of trial and error you have come to redesign your original patterns exactly?

Just a thought.

PLATON wrote:What I need to say is this.

Suppose you are someone someone whom they hired to make a jacket for some film. You make the best jacket possible, give it to the film crew the film is shot, you don't keep the patterns and then everything is forgotten.

Many years later growing demand forces you to remember the patterns. You draw them again, make some mistakes but....

After making thousands efforts, making and selling thousands and thousands of jackets isn't it logical to assume that by the process of trial and error you have come to redesign your original patterns exactly?

Just a thought.

I assume you're talking about Peter. He maintains that he never threw away the patterns and still had/has the "Block Patterns". What you're saying isn't fact but conjecture. This also isn't the subject of this thread so we should probably stop there... no? I don't really understand your point.

I am making an assumption.
To explain why my post is there here's a question.

Why do we need anyone copying a jacket a Peter has made since Peter after all these years, might have been enough for Peter to re-create his jacket in the exact specs.

I mean that in the end, I don't think TN copy will be any different than a 80s fit Wested.

I am not putting this a start of a debate, just stating a thought.

You don't think a Tony Nowak jacket will be any different than a Wested?
Wow.

That's like saying there's really no difference between a reblocked HJ and an AB Deluxe.

Alright, we've asked time and time again to drop the price issue until we get actual confirmation from Tony himself. As that is still not happening, I'm shutting this one down until we get word.

It'll be back up, with price squabbling (possibly) dropped out once we get a solid answer.

So (for now) move along. Move along.

Well, I now have a decent eye strain and headache from dropping 3 pages of arguing over theoretical pricing, and have heard from Tony, so I am posting his reply and opening back up this thread. He did not confirm price, so that argument is not to be brought back up, but he did confirm the project.

He said he knows he needs to get on and introduce himself, but he's not been able to as he's currently on a show (Hollywood-speak for a movie project). Below is a portion of Tony's email response that I've been asked to share:

… THE MOST WANTED IS COMING SHORTLY , FROM THE VERY FIRST DAY OF BEING INVOLVED IN MAKING INDY 4 JACKETS I GOT A FAST EDUCATION FROM ALL THE INDY FANS THAT IT IS THE RAIDERS JACKET THAT THEY ARE VERY INTERESTED IN .WELL I DID NOT LOOK FOR IT BUT IT CAME MY WAY , TO MAKE IT SHORT IT TOOK SOME TIME TO GET ALL THE COMPONENTS , WE GOT THEM AND THE BEST IS THAT KNOWING HOW PRECISE INDY FANS ARE IT MUST BE HANDCRAFTED ACCORDINGLY . LIKE 777 IS THE LIMITED INDY 4 PRODUCTION IT WILL BE 888 FOR THE M O S T W A N T E D ONE . …

Mike...

No mention of price (ballpark estimate or otherwise) from Tony, I take it?

Well, he's a marketer, if nothing else.

Again, it comes down to the actual jacket he's sourced. If it's a stuntman jacket, I'm not too sure how the project will differ from a G&B... because that's what it did too (ie: fabricated from a stuntman jacket), right?

And even if it is a hero jacket, can it suddenly become X% more accurate, or made from X% better leather or tailored by a person X% more skilled than the folks at G&B (to justify a X% price increase*)?

I don't know about you guys, but they are the questions on the tip of my tongue. I look forward to hearing more. What an interesting hobby we weave.

*Price increase based on the current cost of a CS jacket already being more than a G&B and the fact it's unlikely that the new jacket being discussed will be cheaper than the CS.

I agree. I am most curious to know exactly WHAT jacket is being replicated and WHERE it came from...