Club Obi Wan

PSBIndy wrote:I believe my Wested horsehide will outlast a TN jacket. My 'ol Wested HH is, to me, the finest and toughest leather jacket I have ever seen....if I had to be dragged by a truck, nothing but a HH will do.

Actually I put my money on goatskin outlasting horsehide and cowhide in normal wear however it is not thick for rough wear. Some horse hide are very thin. Kangaroo hide is the toughest.

Actually I put my money on goatskin outlasting horsehide and cowhide in normal wear

Tell that to the thousands of WWII A-2 jackets that have survived for
over 65 years now.

They were made of horsehide, and most of them were worn everyday
for years during the war, and they were used in alot more than just
"normal wear".

They were used in the rain, snow, sun, hot, cold, used as pillows, were
worn in all kinds of tight aircraft, you name it.

And there are some around today that can still be worn once you replace the wool
cuffs and waistband.

If thats not beating the "normal wear" we do, like going to the mall,
the office, maybe a picnic or two, riding in the car, or maybe, heaven forbid
doing some yardwork like raking leaves, or mowing the grass then I don't
know what you call "normal wear".

Flathead

taikonaut wrote:

Han Jones wrote:The myth of location as the reason for Nowak getting the job is one that will be talked about here for years to come but it is not true. Tony got the job because of the quality of his jackets.

Movie props are not valued for its quality but for its pliability and availability. A strong and structurily well made jacket poses obstacle that result in more work for the wardrobe to make it film authentic. I dont think there is any myth regarding location. Tried and tested contrator with a history of previous dealings in the movie business are often favourite unless location and availability becomes an issue.

We do know this movie that the entire Indy costume was meant to be sturdy. That was the design concept this time around. So I guess you might be wrong about that here.

I haven't seen a Nowak, but I own a Wested and a G&B. I have no doubt that the Nowak is a better made jacket that the Wested. The G&B certainly is. Is the Nowak better made than the G&B - I doubt it. _ stated that they were about the same.

CM wrote:
We do know this movie that the entire Indy costume was meant to be sturdy. That was the design concept this time around. So I guess you might be wrong about that here.

I haven't seen a Nowak, but I own a Wested and a G&B. I have no doubt that the Nowak is a better made jacket that the Wested. The G&B certainly is. Is the Nowak better made than the G&B - I doubt it. _ stated that they were about the same.

Which begs the question: why wasn't G&B involved. There are other issues involved here.

Having just read this thread for the first time I would like to point out that I have no bad feelings towards Tony at all. In fact I think he has done an excellant repro. But it must be said that had the production been in England as before Tony would not have got a look in and Mark of AB in Germany would be tha hat maker.
It is a fact that when I recommended Mark Bernie did said no as he was in Germany and thier contract was only saved because Steve was in the USA.
Bernie's is a stickler for 'Hands On' and 'USA' wanting immediate reaction and in way it makes sense to use local suppliers.
He had Tony running backwards and forwards with minor alterations.
Finally there was nothing wrong with the quality of my samples that was just an excuse to get out of his commitment.
Cheers
Peter

FLATHEAD wrote:

Actually I put my money on goatskin outlasting horsehide and cowhide in normal wear

Tell that to the thousands of WWII A-2 jackets that have survived for
over 65 years now.

They were made of horsehide, and most of them were worn everyday
for years during the war, and they were used in alot more than just
"normal wear".

They were used in the rain, snow, sun, hot, cold, used as pillows, were
worn in all kinds of tight aircraft, you name it.

And there are some around today that can still be worn once you replace the wool
cuffs and waistband.

If thats not beating the "normal wear" we do, like going to the mall,
the office, maybe a picnic or two, riding in the car, or maybe, heaven forbid
doing some yardwork like raking leaves, or mowing the grass then I don't
know what you call "normal wear".

Flathead

I think you need to do a bit of research here, try understand a bit more because half truth is dangerous.
FYI I am a collector of WW2 originals and YES, goats skin were also used for flight jackets and goats turn out better than horse hide over the years. Most of the wear and tear you see in WW2 era leather flight jackets are credited to postwar period either worn by veterans who found themselves without a job after the war and the jacket was his only clothing or their sons and grandsons wanting to look cool in college campus. When the military decided on the hide goats were found to be structurally stronger than horse but horse was plentiful due to the replacement of horse and carriage by automobile in the 1930s. I have both goats and horsehide originals. If you dont believe go to the vintage leather forum and ask there.

I am a member of the VJF myself, so I know what you are saying. I am
not disagreeing with you.

You pretty much agree with what I said when you said this:

Most of the wear and tear you see in WW2 era leather flight jackets are credited to postwar period either worn by veterans who found themselves without a job after the war and the jacket was his only clothing or their sons and grandsons wanting to look cool in college campus.

That is YEARS of wear and tear over what we can call normal wear today.
And alot of those horsehide jackets are still around, and wearable
not only from WWII, but also alot of the basic cilvillian jackets made from
horsehide from the 40's and 50's.

And I do know that the Navy chose goatskin for their USN Type AN6552
for its durability, but also because goatskin has more natural water
repellancy than horsehide.

My point is that what you call "normal wear" for anyone today is FAR
less than what those original WWII jackets went thru, and just about
any hide other than say lambskin will last anyone here their entire life if
you put "normal wear" on it.

So, you can pretty much buy any type of leather you want, and its going
to last the average person their entire lifetime.

Flathead

FLATHEAD wrote:I am a member of the VJF myself, so I know what you are saying. I am
not disagreeing with you.

You pretty much agree with what I said when you said this:

Most of the wear and tear you see in WW2 era leather flight jackets are credited to postwar period either worn by veterans who found themselves without a job after the war and the jacket was his only clothing or their sons and grandsons wanting to look cool in college campus.

That is YEARS of wear and tear over what we can call normal wear today.
And alot of those horsehide jackets are still around, and wearable
not only from WWII, but also alot of the basic cilvillian jackets made from
horsehide from the 40's and 50's.

And I do know that the Navy chose goatskin for their USN Type AN6552
for its durability, but also because goatskin has more natural water
repellancy than horsehide.

My point is that what you call "normal wear" for anyone today is FAR
less than what those original WWII jackets went thru, and just about
any hide other than say lambskin will last anyone here their entire life if
you put "normal wear" on it.

So, you can pretty much buy any type of leather you want, and its going
to last the average person their entire lifetime.

Flathead

You said the following
"Tell that to the thousands of WWII A-2 jackets that have survived for
over 65 years now.
They were made of horsehide, and most of them were worn everyday
for years during the war, and they were used in alot more than just
"normal wear". "

And this is what I have qouted you on. I think you were commenting about wear during the war. I hope you read your own post. I mantion that goatskin will outlast horsehide but your response what to ask me to "Tell that to the thousands of WWII A-2...." which is implying to refute my claim about goats and horsehide. Here we are not in agreement.

Actually, I was stating that the horsehide jackets worn during WWII
held up to much more than the "normal wear" that you stated they
would not hold up to as much as goatskin.

I never stated, in any of my posts, that one leather would outlast
any other. You did. Not me, and I am saying by the proof of the fact
that thousands of WWII era horsehide jackets exsist today, in wearable
condtion, means that horsehide is a tough leather.

So why would you suggest that a horsehide jacket would not last as long
as a goatskin one?

Actually I put my money on goatskin outlasting horsehide and cowhide in normal wear

This is what you said. That goatskin would outlast horsehide.

I am saying you are not right with that statement, as proven by the
many thousands of horsehide jackets that survive to this day that
were worn for only those few years during the war, and put away in
trunks and found 60 years later.

When you add in the fact, as you yourself stated, that alot of these
jackets were worn for many, many more years after the war, just
adds to the fact that a horsehide jacket can last just as long as one
made from goatskin, which you say it should not under "normal wear".

Flathead

The truth is goatskin are stronger than horsehide and would outlast horsehide weather it is worn or not. I DID NOT say horsehide will not survive after 65 years, YOU DID! Then you went off on one about fictitious account of WW2 and how these jackets been through everyday of abuse. Then you follow up on that by taking my words and yours out of context, then you follow up to my response by putting words into my mouth.
Man, you should consider a job in politics or Sharon Stone's PR.

I mentioned normal wear because there are other extremities tested or untested, ie dragging it under the tank in hot desert, taking it through a bush fire, dropping it in salt water, etc. Yes, goats will outlast horsehide because not only is it stronger it retains the elasticity that maintains the suppleness much much better than horsehide which is more prone to dryness and harden up over the years and far more vulnerable to sweat, also more vulnerable to red rot. You can choose to stick to your own ideas about hides. Collectors in the know at least the large majority will agree with what I said.

BTW A2 jackets were not worn everyday during the war, they were only occassionally worn and during operations. I have horsehide A2s that only had mission wear and they are in great condition but the hide is now a little stiff than it was, also a goat which is still 100% supple and the hide hardly blemished even though it had more wear and abuse.

In the book "A2 & G1 Hel Bent for leathers" page 30.
In 1938 when military officials invited several manufacturers to come up with design samples for the A2 "horsehide ranks 5th on the durability scale, goatskin 2nd. Goatskin is almost as durable as the stiff, inflexibale, iron-like kangaroo skin, yet it is extremely soft", It also went on to say goatskin is "more abrasions resistence".
Ill informed folks thinks the percieved softness in goatskin is a weakness when it actually is not.

Talk about putting words in someone elses mouth.

Please, show me where I said this per your quote:

I DID NOT say horsehide will not survive after 65 years, YOU DID!

I can NOT find where I said this. Please show me. I have re-read all
of my posts, and I can't find where I said this.

As a matter of fact, here is the quote I said:

This is what you said. That goatskin would outlast horsehide.

I am saying you are not right with that statement, as proven by the
many thousands of horsehide jackets that survive to this day

I said it WILL survive. Please show me where I have said anything different.

Its YOU who keep saying:

Actually I put my money on goatskin outlasting horsehide and cowhide in normal wear

And here:

I mantion that goatskin will outlast horsehide but your response what to ask me to "Tell that to the thousands of WWII A-2...." which is implying to refute my claim about goats and horsehide.

And here:

The truth is goatskin are stronger than horsehide and would outlast horsehide weather it is worn or not.

And here:

Yes, goats will outlast horsehide because not only is it stronger it retains the elasticity that maintains the suppleness much much better than horsehide which is more prone to dryness and harden up over the years and far more vulnerable to sweat, also more vulnerable to red rot. You can choose to stick to your own ideas about hides. Collectors in the know at least the large majority will agree with what I said.

I have, and keep saying, that horsehide is a great leather for anyone
here to choose for a jacket. It will last for years, just like the A-2 has
show to do.

Not one single time, in any post of mine, did I say that horsehide was
better than goatskin, or tougher that goatskin, or more tear resistant
than goatskin.

All I have been saying is that horeshide is a great leather that will last
any one of us their entire life as proven by the fact that examples exsist
today that are over 65 years old, and went thru a war, and years of hard
wear as you yourself said.

Also, I don't know if you had a typo here or what, but the A-2 became
standard issue in May 1931, NOT 1938 as you have posted here:

In the book "A2 & G1 Hel Bent for leathers" page 30.
In 1938 when military officials invited several manufacturers to come up with design samples for the A2

All I have said from the very beginning, is that anyone here who wants
a jacket made from horsehide will get a jacket that will last
their lifetime, as proven by the fact that A-2's made from horseshide
are still around after 65 years, and still wearable after going thru a
war, and years of use afterward.

Its YOU who keep bringing up the facts about goatskin. I have NEVER
disputed what you are saying about it, so I don't know why the attact on
me about this.

I do not doubt what you are saying about goatskin, and I have never
said I doubted you, but you seem to think I do for some reason, even
though I have never said this.

Flathead

Gentlemen, I hope I'm not stepping on any moderator toes by suggesting that no one cares who said what anymore. This is someone's showoff thread for goodness sake.

Gentlemen, I hope I'm not stepping on any moderator toes by suggesting that no one cares who said what anymore. This is someone's showoff thread for goodness sake.

You are right. Sorry for the diatribe. Lets see more jackets!!

Flathead

I don't know if someone have proposed this by now, but...what you think about making a sort of COW YouTube channel to upload video-review of various jackets, hats, etc.?

I say that because I'll think is very useful to see how various item move, react to dynamic light, etc. In one video it's more easy to estimate, for example, the weight and the feeling of a jacket; or the softness and the texture of a hat.

Agreed. I think this should become a regular practice around here for those who have the means to do it. Canyon's gear video display thread prompted me to document my CS jacket for posterity. I posted that video (in 5 parts) on MySpace, and I will do the same for my AB when it arrives.