Club Obi Wan

_ wrote:What I am saying is that the man Harrison Ford personally pays to manage what he wears and how he looks watched all three existing movies and examined every jacket in the archives. He asked for a jacket with a collar that sits properly - pretty much no matter what you do to the jacket...

How much input does this type of image consultant have any given shot in a movie? If the director wants a particular look, but it's not something the image consultant thinks looks good on the actor, how is that resolved? Thanks for all the behind the scene info _ - very interesting.

Maybe whoever ordered the jacket for LF asked for snaps and I didn't remember(I lose things in my hand now, but can remember details from 30 years ago.), or, Anthony Powell didn't remember having them added when playing with the jacket. Of course assistant costumer, Ron Beck, told me that the shoes used in TOD had been discontinued, so who knows?

By the way _, was my jacket a 44R?

By the way, the hints were out there about this jacket. I cringed when I read this postby Louisiana Jones.

In fact, I had the opportunity to mention The Terminator and Terminator 2: Judgment Day a few posts earlier to drop some clues. I thought it would lead some to Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines.

Some Indiana Jones fans!

Yeah, we remember nuking a few of those 'hints' too, Rick.

Regards! Michaelson

Come now, old friend, cut some slack. Not all of us wander in the rarified air of the TOP rated leather companies in the world like you and Rick do.

Some of us (and I include myself in the 'some') don't even LOOK at their catalogs or sites, let alone figure them into production lines of jackets or the like, so who would suspect they would jump the rails and go for someone as top rated in the industry as Tony for the Indy IV jacket?

Regards! Michaelson

After working 13 years in the uranium industry in the past, I glow in the dark. Does that count?

Regards! Michaelson

Semnatics, my friend... Nobody had a Raider's jacket in-hand to use as a prototype to make a subsequent jacket for the other three movies.

#

It is in the jacket rewrite - I think you even responded to that point over there before the housekeeping was done?

:idea: #

Steve - you sure there's no mercury in them lids?

That, and I forget what has been said, and what HAS NOT been said.

I think to stay out of trouble, I need to stop saying anything, since I am having a hard time remembering what has been said, and what has not been said. Ok, new policy, I will just READ and not comment. That will keep my foot out of my mouth. Fedora

Ok, new policy, I will just READ and not comment. That will keep my foot out of my mouth. Fedora

Why do that, old friend! You'll miss out on half the fun in this hobby!

Regards! Michaelson

If you read what is being said, you will see the jacket Harrison and Bernie picked was not made by Peter. If you read the draft jacket rewrite, you will see that even the original Raider's jackets were not Peter's design. When Peter made the jackets for Last Crusade, he copied a jacket that was handed to him by Anthony Powell and that was developed by Lee Keppler by looking at screen grabs and that was made to Lee's specifications by Flight Suits. Lee added the press stud to his jackets because the storm flap stuck-out...

I cannot beleive what I am reading. I was never given a jacket to copy by Anthony Powell, in fact I don't think I ever met him. I made jackets for Lee Kepler not him for me. He may well of recomended me but I would have made the jacket anyway as Bermans & Nathan had the contract and Noel & Lee were the prodution team and were loyal to me.
This is turning into a bagfull of worms but try as some might I designed and made albeit to Debera's spec the original raiders jacket and last crusade jacket and whatever jacket is made now will only be a modified copy of the original raiders jacket.
As for Bernie Pollock, when he rang me in London one thursday night confessing he knew nothing about Indiana Jones and that he needed jackets, pants, shirt, hats etc I jumped. I was warned and should have known better. The only result was Adventurebilt on my recomendation.
Lee, was this your jacket? http://www.indyjacket.co.uk/indy4.htm

Boy, I don't know what i've done to provoke that attack. All I said was the 1st proto Peter made was astonishingly accurate and the pictures appear to prove it, this was with travelling thousands of miles and only his notes to guide him. Whereas Nowak got to take the proto away to copy. And yes I was aware of the issue that Bernie had with the collar.

Before anyone thinks I sent the offending emails to _, I have never as much as sent him a PM let alone emails, ever.

I have praised where I have bought good items from vendors and have criticised when items I have bought are bad. It just happens that mostly I have bought jackets.

Peter is big enough to reply for himself, although his writing style can sometimes get the better of him.

To paraphrase: Geez, it's just a jacket!

Now, after all this confusion about an item we thought we had hard evidence about for YEARS,, you still expect me to believe the clipper hat was grey when I SEE brown on screen?! The facts will never be straight on ANY of the gear from Indiana Jones!

TR

New movie idea- "Indiana Jones and the Quest for the Original Raiders/Temple/Last Crusade Gear"-

Plot-- Indiana, while searching in the warehouse discovers the crate with the Ark in it,,,as he's climbing to get to it,,his eyes catch some print- "#818489 ,,he looks in it to find-- ALL THE GEAR THAT HE WORE IN PREVIOUS MOVIES!! Along with the list of makers,designers,,,etc,etc,,,

Ahhh, never mind

TR

Not me.

Might be a co-worker, or someone spoofing me.

Does it sound like me?

Okay, guys getting back to the jacket discussion. About the collar:

The collar on my Wested has been an issue with me for a while. It just won't lay down properly. In fact, it won't lay down at all. It sticks out like a pair of wings.

I couldn't agree more, since I've had the same issue. I have a 9-year old lambskin Wested. Check out my recent post for a picture of this very problem:

viewtopic.php?t=24433

Oddly enough, the screen-used Raiders jackets seem don't seem to have this glitch. Again, it's hard to imagine why a collar would give such problems. Like someone said, it's not exactly rocket science to get that right...

> 82.43.194.204

...In times of dynamic IP address assignment and proxy servers this could have been anyone coming from the same company/ISP...

Let me give my 2¢ about this issue...

I personally think it is more important that we, the fans, get a quality jacket that is a near exact copy of the jacket in a Indy-movie of our choice...

I've looked up the location, it nowhere near where I live. It may just be they are on the same ISP as me.

http://whatismyipaddress.com

Soooo anyway....

_

Why did they want cowhide for this jacket? I understand that they wanted a tougher adventure worthy jacket, but why cow over horse or goat? I'm thinking weight vs. strength.

Also, do you know if the hide is thin like Todds old calfskin prototypes or is it a thicker, more robust hide?

Thanks,
C3

_ wrote:KT - I regret even saying the arse kissing comment. When I swept IP addresses and saw the hit on your account here, I was ticked. I do not think it sounds like you - personally I think it sounds like somebody trying not to sound like themselves, or that they don't speak English very comfortably, or that they were drinking, or some combination.

Should I be surprised that the IP addresses I could track came from the UK? No... Should I have made the crack - No...

Let me ask your opinion, though...

Do you follow what I am trying to say apart from the stupid comment I made? Given it is clear to anybody following this that you and I are not close personal friends, I value your honest feedback on this point. Honestly - with no axes to grind - am I mising something? I am honestly trying here...

Please clarify which statement?

coronado3 wrote:Soooo anyway....

_

Why did they want cowhide for this jacket? I understand that they wanted a tougher adventure worthy jacket, but why cow over horse or goat? I'm thinking weight vs. strength.

Also, do you know if the hide is thin like Todds old calfskin prototypes or is it a thicker, more robust hide?

Thanks,
C3

It was my understanding the choice was made for strength of material, but considering they had to make several jackets, the ease of obtaining cowhide vs. horse or goat in a quick manner.

It was also Ford's preference.

Regards! Michaelson

Ok, first point, Peter certainly believes he had a degree of creative input into the design.

Let me give you an analogy, you go to a restaurant and order a steak, rare.

The chef cooks it for you. He is the cook, he/or she chose the amount of time it cooked, the seasoning, the steak. He/she cooked the steak.

Now all this time the actual details are not forth coming. How exact were the instructions given to Peter, measures, pictures, the way the straps work, the way the pleats work... etc.

If the instructions were entirely word of mouth and Peter interpreted them one way then he has had some creative input. He cooked it so to speak.

Is he the "designer"? As a designer myself and someone who has briefed other creatives then... and this is a big THEN I would be the designer.

However, the creative making the item has IP right's on the finished item unless I specifically pay them for that item and reproduction rights in perpetuity. I would only have right to use that item in the way specified by contract. The creative owns the item.

It works the same with paintings, just ask any illustrator.

_, were you privy to the distressing process this time around?

I know you mentioned some kind of water-distressing for the previous 3 films, so I was wondering if a similar process was used this time and how it might differ since it's cowhide and not lambskin.

Thanks in advance.

Does anyone else find this leather to be far less interesting than what was originally used in Raiders. To me (and I'm only going by the one picture I've seen of the CS jacket hanging during production) it seems too smooth and devoid of character. There are other tough hides that could have been chosen to give a bit more deminsion (that couldn't have hurt right), so I think perhaps this aspect of the jacket was not considered by Bernie at all. Now I'm not saying that anyone else has been producing such an item, well I take that back US Wing's antiqued Lambskin looks the part but I'm just saying that a big budget could have surely sourced a more convincing leather... no really old jackets I've seen have been so smooth. JMHO.

Doug C

Do you know what Ford' s input and or comments were regarding the new jackets and revisions to the new hide etc? Why did he want the Cowhide and why did he pick the old archive jacket that he did for the re-production.

Part 2.

If the CS Jacket is based on a physically existing item then neither has design claims on the item.

They do have rights on patterns they have created unless the studio stipulated that their payment included all rights to patterns, if not, Lucasfilm just bought jackets. (I know with Peter this is the case, they didn't even get him to sign a NDA).

Outside that, if the archive jacket is one that Lee Keppler originated, of course he should credited for that but it IS based off the Raiders even though some details are different. The DNA goes back to Raiders. He was looking at reference of the Raiders (and probably the TOD) when he made that. So it is 50% Raiders DNA?

This is partly why clothes are supposedly non copyrightable, it's the designs on them and labels that are. Otherwise we'd have only 1 company making "all shirts" or "All coats".

Ultimately Mr Nowak got the contract, congratulations to him.

Peter did not get the contract, but (and I apologise for letting this out) I have seen hand written notes on pictures of the samples that came back to him and it said stuff like "97% perfect" [now we just have to find the right leather...] paraphrase. There was a small line drawn in the collar, wanted Bernie it to droop a few more degrees but that was it. As far as I saw.

They did go through a few leather options that I am aware of. There was one (spoiler) requirement that caused some issues. He also wanted a grainy cowhide. (Which he didn't end up with it seems!).

Now, from what you say Peter and Bernie had a bust up, but I know nothing about this.

The facts I know are are: At that point the pattern Peter had is high on the accuracy stakes and will do fine for me, JMO.

If the pleats and the straps changed after that point, then I an slightly surprised considering how much they were copying the proto. But maybe they did something just to throw Peter a curve ball.

I find it interesting that we have not been shown the pleats or the back of the CS screen used jacket yet.

The bottom line, and I'm probably going to get punched for this. Both of them had a physical template to follow, this appears to make both their "creative" input less than when Peter made the Raiders.

HOWEVER, I know Peter made significant developments with his pleats, the yoke has changed shape and the pleats work much better.

Now, Tony may have done even more. i don't know. Not seen the back of his jacket yet.

It would be nice to get one from Mr Nowak one day but I suspect I'll never be able to afford it.

This has been very helpful to me - thanks all. Even the whiners who griped because I did not ask for their opinions...

yeah. You never returned my calls either.

Regards! Michaelson

_

Yes , the truth of the jacket's history seems to be one that Obi Wan would say depends on our point of view...

Plus you are rumaging through info (and memories) that are about 18 years old!

Good luck! I have the feeling that you are going to need a vacation after all of this!

Can't wait to read it...

C3

Even the whiners who griped because I did not ask for their opinions...

the whiners probably didn't realize that they shouldn't input since this thread was titled as a "discussion" of the CS jacket to begin with, which is what I thought was going on.

Doug C

I hate to keep this going and I sure hope you don't decide to lock the thread again or worse ban me from your kingdom, because you don't like what's said.. but let's not make folks think this is a public forum where _ rules with a finger on the zapper, you should atleast try to discuise that a bit. So man, I don't care who's opinion you asked for - it's a public forum and you should have been aware of the availablity of PMs if you wanted to talk amongst yourselves, instead of demanding that nobody else give input. Again JMHO.

Doug C

Doug C wrote:I hate to keep this going and I sure hope you don't decide to lock the thread again or worse ban me from your kingdom, because you don't like what's said.. but let's not make folks think this is a public forum where _ rules with a finger on the zapper, you should atleast try to discuise that a bit. So man, I don't care who's opinion you asked for - it's a public forum and you should have been aware of the availablity of PMs if you wanted to talk amongst yourselves, instead of demanding that nobody else give input. Again JMHO.

Doug C

Doug, I second your words wholeheartedly. This is a semi-public forum after all.

to which I only replied :

I don't think it was fair. But also not surprising.

Doug C

Re-read what you wrote to me, the first part sound extremely pompas and arrogant to me, and hey it just rubs me the wrong way when you say things like (paraphrasing here) "I locked it down to give him [peter] time to think things over", like a father who's sending their children to their room as punishment - that's my take on it.

Doug C

Cowboy wrote:Do you know what Ford' s input and or comments were regarding the new jackets and revisions to the new hide etc? Why did he want the Cowhide and why did he pick the old archive jacket that he did for the re-production.

Back on subject any one???

More than happy to discuss the gear, let's do it.

Doug C

_ wrote:It was not a specific request for a specific hide. One of the gripes he had was that the jackets felf unsubstantial. It is odd because at the time of Raiders and Temple, he complained that they were too hot. Ok - Tunesia was 120+ degrees and they all had the runs...

So in other words, he wanted the jacket to "Feel" like a rugged jacket weight wise? Like Carhart Tough?

There’s no reason that you can’t have two simultaneous discussions going on in the same thread. Otherwise some administrator has to extract one of the discussions and put it into a new thread. That’s a pain. Cheers

OMG you're giving me a head-ache, dude I agreed to talk gear. What, I didn't do it enthusiastically enough?? Relax man you're in controll, we get it.

Doug C

whew.....just got off the plain from london where i was sending some e-mails out from kt's computer..............just kidding!

looks like i've missed some serious discussions here. i'm very interested to see the design of this collar primarily because i don't fancy the looks of it at all. i thought it was pointy when it was on the hanger and it even looked moreso on ford.....maybe i need to grow into that look but for now it disagress with me.

i'm happy that the jacket manufacturer has been announced.....i'm quite disappointed that this jacket won't be available until next year though.......how bout christmas patty? can you swing me a deal for christmas?....come on!!! i'll even buy you one too if you can!!! waiting for this is gonna hurt.....especially when i'm in the market again now

Say, If you plan on the new jacket and order an AB now....you'd have them both about the same time....Patience is a virtue, and all great things are well worth the wait....

Fedora wrote

With time being a factor, and with Bernie being really picky about the garb, I was not surprised when he went with Tony, who was local with no lead times on shipping jackets. I think Bernie prefers to do business with local folks, as that is probably what he is used to in his career. When Tony handed him a good replica very fast, that pretty much set who would make the jackets. IMHO.

I said the exact same thing and my post was nuked. Okay, I know, I signed the user agreement...

_ wrote

LC is probably 50 to Peter, 30 to Lee and 20 Tony Powell (the elephant ear collar and clown pockets)...

Elephant ear collar huh? I agree. I must say that I don't like the LC jacket at all. The collar is way too big, the jacket is bulky, the distress work *****, the leather seeme to be very heavy, the pockets are clown, the press studs should be there but not visible in my opinion...

But where in the world was this guy Bernie Pollak, who wants everything to look right, in the making of LC?

Now suddenly he appears and wants a hundred things to change about the jacket, the collar, the pleats, the leather etc. He even employed a secret nuclear formula to make the collar sit straight. Also, again press studs on the storm flap (I wonder why this was needed and if we are going to see the storm flap snapped in any scene in the movie). We also hear that Ford, his wife, Spielberg and his dog, they all have an opinion about how the jacket will look, which of course is nice. But where were they in the making of LC? Why didn't they have an opinion then? Why those elephant ears?

In the end my friends, and remember this, you will see, that regardless the hundred mods, the CS jacket will never look as good as the Raiders jacket.

_, we appreciate you refraining Peter from replying but we're still interested to see what he is going to say.

Okay, I have a question which maybe you can answer considering the new friends you have at Hollywood.

"Who made the mystery of the blues jacket?"

It has been said that it was an LC left over, but I doubt.
Can you ask your friends?

_ wrote:
Anyway, I'm not sold on the jacket myself. I have a sample of the leather that has been in the pocket of whatever pants I am wearing for about 8 weeks now. It grows on you, but I still like the lighter hides.

Hey _. I was just wondering if the sample leather has a texture similar to the late 90's- very early 00's Disney jackets. That very fine, dare I say almost suede-like texture. The picture and video of the CS jacket gives me that impression. I'm probably way off, but I was just curious. Thanks!

_ wrote:

I am fortunate enough to have "one of those Wested" where they did it right. Know what I mean?

What Wested do you have, _? How old is it?

I hate to bring the subject back up since we're now on the topic of the jacket again, but as I was actually spending quality time getting my kids sugared up last night, I missed this fun. Llet me put the naysayers at ease on this one point.

_ does not run the site. I do.

Brief history: We felt burned by not getting to announce the hat maker, one of our own no less, and getting scooped by other sites by the production company lifting the ban without telling us. This after we so dutifully kept to their wishes of cancelling out any vendor talk before the releases. We were happy to be able to announce the jacket first, a small retribution if you will.

I will not not have this turn into another jacket wars.

Some of you may not have been around long enough to know what all went on back then, but we were trying to be very senitive to it happening again. As I stated previously, posts were locked to keep the peace and not allow this to happen.

Is _ a little defensive, a 'bull in the china shop'? He may be a little less PC than the rest of the moderators, but frankly after the beating he took in said jacket war, I could hardly blame him. Quite frankly, I was surprised he ever agreed to come back and write the section for the site. He knows his stuff. His intentions are honorable. He knows when he's done wrong, because we tell him. But if any member has issues with him or any of my staff, bring it up to me. When barbs keep going back and forth publically to the point of flaming, that's when penalties occur.

Now back to elephant colors and rediculous distressing...

_ wrote: Yes, but would you let me date your sister?

No.

Regards! Michaelson

Pattterson,
You can PM me on this if you want to - you say you have a LC HH in the closet....what do you think of this particular jacket and what would you ask for when getting one of those? I am still trying to make up my mind on the LC HH and any input you have would be great!
Cheers
Nick

I don’t want to get too mushy here, but there are about 5 guys on this forum (give or take) that without whom, there would me no Indygear (at least in it’s current state of presenting facts). Paterson is one of those guys. Without these guys we’d be looking at screen captures and talking science fiction. That’s always important to keep in mind. Paterson coming back was one of the greatest things to happen to Indygear. I know this sounds like ‘hero” worship to some of you, but it is not.

In fact, Paterson and I used to butt heads all the time. I’m not saying that he’s infallible, but if you’ve gotten his attention (in a negative sense), I would say that it wouldn’t hurt you to take a second look at what you’ve written (he usually does). Of course, sometimes people are just on two different wavelengths as well. You’ll probably never see things eye to eye. Not everyone has to be friends, but there’s probably a way to coexist. If not may I suggest “Indygear-Fightclub”. Actually I don’t want to suggest that. He’d murder most of us. Cheers

I would however, LOVE to see a perfect-fitting Indy jacket that was completely functional. No gussets and elastic bands to make it work...

I think this will be the best quality Indy jacket of all of the jackets. Film jackets that is. If not, I will be totally surprised. Bernie is one picky man. He's was very zeroed in on the outfit being very durable, as I think he felt an action film needed tough Indy outfits. The first thing he tells us is the gear had to hold up to.........well, several things. That seemed to be a priority to him. The next was to have vendors who could make exactly what he wanted in looks. He was happy with his choice of vendors. IMHO. Fedora

Fedora wrote:He was happy with his choice of vendors. IMHO. Fedora

I hear the hatter was a pain to work with.

can't be as bad as the main club's hatter.....

The silly thing is I'm likely holding the same things Steve is, and they will never see the light of day.

And I know that you know them!! We have alot of the inside stuff that is better left unsaid. But don't you feel sort of privledged? I know that I do. This stuff is priceless!! Especially for guys like us. Ok, I have said enough. Although I doubt a particular person would care if you spilled ALL the beans. Still, it is not acceptable to do so. Not in my Universe. When you get all the facts out there in your treatise on the jacket the other stuff is inconsequiental anyways.

For me, I hope Tony comes up with an affordable jacket, although I expect it to still be a higher end leather jacket. Peter has served us so well with his pricing and I expect him to continue to do so. I also think if Peter would have been in LA, he would have got the deal right off the bat. Peter was NOT allowed to take the jacket back to the UK, but Tony could borrow it since he was local. That makes a difference folks!! Where the sets are, Elstreet vs. LA, figured into wardrobe vendors. Only when "the hat" could not be sourced locally did they start looking elsewhere. That's a fact. Fedora