Club Obi Wan

Renderking Fisk wrote:From what little shooting I've done, and from the coversations I've had with the experts I know, the 9mm is a useless round. Sure, you can hold more rounds in a clip, but you need more rounds to take down a target... and sometimes you only get one shot.

I am not going to try to start a fight about the vertues(spelling?) of different calibers, because to me it is a ford versus chevy thing, but I wouldnt consider the 9mm useless. As Michaelson stated with the old ammo is was anemic however with the new powders and bullet construction it is vastly improved. While it doesnt have the straight knockdown power of the big ol 45ACP it also doesnt have near the recoil either. If you can hit what your aiming at then anything can be a one shot stopper. The advantage of the 45 is it can do it easier than a 9. however if you cant handle the recoil of a big 45 then a 9 is alot better choice. I personally carry my big 1911 colt for a backup when I am hunting but for just hiking around (alot of critters that like to eat you, up were I live in Montana) I really enjoy having my 9 with me since it is alot lighter and doesnt have near the bulk. Like I said I dont want to start any fight over this subject and if it sounds like I am on a soap box then you have my apoligies.
Here is the best solution I can think of a 12 gauge pump. Hard to beat 00 buck in a up close "conversation" with Nazi's that want to argue

S&W

Gilly wrote:I am not going to try to start a fight about the vertues(spelling?) of different calibers, because to me it is a ford versus chevy thing, but I wouldnt consider the 9mm useless.

You're right... I should have used another word other then useless.

The S & W for me.

One thing that made the 9mm ineffective in Indy's day was that the ammunition was primarily full metal jacket ammo. Full metal jacket ammo tends to perforate human targets. Modern 9mm hollowpoint ammo is much more effective, but I still hear police reports of criminals absorbing multiple rounds before going down. The advantages are that 9mm handguns are a bit easier to shoot, hold more rounds, and come in smaller packages. However, like Renderking, my preference is a Ruger P90. It is the most accurate .45 ACP I have shot thus far.

Raiders is the best and it has the best gun. S&W.

Paul

I'll go with the Browning 9mm. 14 bullets compared to a revolvers 6. Faster reload. Faster rate of fire. Thinner profile. Better feel. Fast, crisp, single action trigger. You can afford to knock logs out of the fire place. The thought of all the mass of a steel cylinder full of huge bullets spinning sideways and slamming to a halt makes me queezy. I have read that the problem with 9mm ammo is that it is too high velocity and passes right trough people without slowing down and transfering energy or "knock down power" Maybe the old "enemic" rounds were better! I think about shooting charging mountain lions, bears, and coyotes, not people. A few more people will probably have to be shot, but I hope all people can live together in peace and watch movies.

3thoubucks wrote:I have read that the problem with 9mm ammo is that it is too high velocity and passes right trough people without slowing down and transfering energy or "knock down power" Maybe the old "enemic" rounds were better! I think about shooting charging mountain lions, bears, and coyotes, not people.

Three Thousand,

This is not to start an argument--I am seeking to understand and be on the same page with you.

Would you not want more 'stopping power' against a bear, coyote, or mountain lion? Personally, I am thinking I would want to stop a charging animal (God forbid!) and I wouldn't want to run the risk of my round going right through it only to have the animal continue on toward me, even if only for a moment or two. I guess I would like to have some faith in the 'stopping power' of the round I choose, in that circumstance.

Just .02

Indiana Joe

oh, yeah..... S & W, but Webley a close second

Definetly the S&W, but the colt is a close 2nd favorite
-scott

Hrmmm... I own a Webley, but I love the S&W and the Browning. I really can't decide. They all had great parts in the movie, they're all great guns. As for me, I prefer the classic Colt .45 1911A1, slightly modifyed from its original design, larger thumb gaurd on the grip and a different hammer. That's my favorite gun ever made, I love it.

I just wished to the all mighty Indy Gear Gods that I owned just one of these priceless weapons, oh well maybe someday!

Smith & Wesson. It still beats four aces (or Nazi lackeys...) with a couple of rounds to spare. Quite the cannon.

Henry Jones Sr.

definetly the S&W 45, for stopping power of the revolvers. about the HP 9MM. if you shoot a big tought guy with the 45, he stops. but-you gotto shoot him 2 or 3 times(unless you go headshots) to stop him the the HP, becaus the 9MM(or 38, or 380) all have reputations of almost no stopping pwer and overpenatratinge. as a matter of fact, i was with my uncle when he bought his PPK in atlanta, and the guy was telling us about before the standrd for cops was the glock G22 40cal, about the cops having a shootout with the criminal and have to shoot him like 17 times or more to stop him, and he stil SURVIVED! amazing.

also the Walther p-38 from LC is a neat and facinating gun(the first double action auto accepted to any military. the 1911-also a beautiful, awosme gun- was only single action, which meant you cant fire with the hammer down).

1. S&W



Regards,
Indiana*Jones

Colt. Fedora

I have created a monster that is this topic!

cool . .

I'm gonna go with the Webly with the Browning at second

First of all....I am delighted to see this thread has become more than just a poll. I smiled quietly to myself when I read Michaelson's post. It brought knowledge, history and a wee bit of wisdom to the table. Others have contributed some great points as well. I have just a couple of points to add.

There has been much talk about "knock down power". For the most part that is not logical or applicable when discussing handguns. Physics teaches us that the amount of energy received cannot be greater than the energy transmitted. In other words, the amount of hit or recoil you feel when shooting is less than the hit or punch felt by the person being shot. Most high power rifles don't even have enough "knock down power" to physically knock you to the ground much less a handgun. If I take a pin and poke you in the butt and you jump two feet in the air, it won't be due to the force or knock down power of the pin. It is just you reacting to it.

40-50% of people shot in the torso will fall to the ground because that's what they have seen on movies and television. They have been programmed to fall down when shot.

Many police or military that have been shot in battle don't even know they were wounded until the fight is over. The body goes into survival mode and ignores the wound.

The only way to immediately stop someone or incapacitate them is to basically kill them. Instant incapacitation with a firearm can only be done by shooting someone in, the brain, the upper spine from the neck to the head, the heart or the two main arteries that run on each side of the spine deep within the chest cavity: the aorta and the vena cava. The latter is the larger target and is why law enforcement trains to shoot center mass.

I have read police reports of bad guys shot 42 times and still shooting back. He had received what is called non-survivable wounds…meaning that if you could have stopped the fight and took this guy to the hospital he would still have died. Never-the-less he still fought on until he was shot in the spine.

What all this means is….where you shoot has a much greater determination of stopping power (a better term) than a discussion of whither a 9mm or .45 is better.

Those interested in knowing more about this grusome subject should look for the written works of Dr. Martin Fackler, the US Army's former leading specialist on the subject and the current President of International Wound Ballistics. Also Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow have done some very interesting studies on ammunition as well.

Michaelson brings up a good point about 9mm ammo in 1936. I hadn’t considered that. Due to the winter clothing….. in that situation full metal jacket would be better. Hollow points would get clogged, so a bigger hole would be better. I think if I had to choose a handgun to fight multiple guys with machineguns (which is NOT my idea of a good time), I would have chosen a Colt .45 ACP with 230 grain FMJ. I could change mags quick and who knows……being that round will penetrate 29 inches of flesh, I could probably get two for one!

Michaelson wrote: Of course, using today's standards, all bets are off as the 9mm has been developed as a highly successful and powerful round, especially after it's lousy performance in the infamous Miami shootout, but that's another story.

I don't know about that. That lousey performing 9mm gave one of the bad guys a non-survivable wound at the start of the fight. Also the same folks at the FBI who were bad mouthing the 9mm decided the 10mm was the way to go and we both know what a big sucess that was.

We will have to talk about this over a cold one next time I see you. May perhaps?

Indiana Joe. Indy had the drop on those guys at the Raven bar, from behind, with his gun drawn and pointed at about 10 feet. Through the magic of movies managed to fire 12 consecutive shots from his revolver and didn't hit anyone, until his 15th round. I'd estimate Indy had more than a little experience with life and death gun play, and I don't have any. If I was surprise attacked by a vicious beast, I think I might miss a few times myself. --I really don't know which of these guns an experienced hunter/outdoorsman would rather have in an attack. ---I don't mountain bike in places posted for mountain lions or coyote anymore. I don't even like to target shoot anymore- way too loud and dangerous. Lately, for me, a gun serves the same purpose, for the most part, as a toy gun did when I was a kid. I have owned revolvers and automatics, and I just prefer autos. They're slicker and more exciting. I thought Colt SAA's were the coolest in high school, when they still had TV westerns. I wanted a Webly when I saw Sean Connery in Zardoz. When I saw Raiders, I wanted an auto.