Club Obi Wan

Looks like you've got some converts, Platon.

It all holds water. We also know several (if not all) the jackets went out with aluminum zips painted brass color that immediately failed due to the rush order...so hummmm.

It also makes me continue to scratch my head on this. U. S. Wings originally had the straps facing 'backwards', as shown in the above screen caps. They were reversed to their current position when the stunt jacket was found and spec'd by _. So, considering Wings/Cooper WAS the officially licensed LucasFilm Indy jacket in the U. S. right after the movie came out....did they have it right after all? At least from these photos we know at least ONE of the jackets was made that way.... Yet again....could this jacket BE a Cooper/WIngs jacket? David Hack has claimed for years Wings jackets were used in the film, and no one listened. Could this be one?

Converts? If something can be shown with good evidence, sure, why not, Dumas? It's been done many times over the past decades, both here and at Indyfan. We KNEW that the hat had to be made from a stiff heavy felt....until Rundquist provided screen grab after screen grab that finally proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that was not the case. No one makes or buys the hard, stiff felted Indy fedora now.

PLATON is doing a good job of presenting his case. Speaking for myself, I'm beginning to see exactly what he's talking about, at least on this particular jacket, and as has been stated, there were MANY jackets used, and in many configurations. I don't believe all the jackets were made this way, as the spec'd stunt jacket (as Puppetboy points out) was indeed made in reverse to what we see in these photos, but proof is being shown that a different configuration DID exist, and I from what I'm seeing, it's more than just smoke and mirrors.

Regards! Michaelson

Just received this email from Sgt. Hack at U. S. Wings, posted here with his permission, and verbim...Direct quote....

Okay M....
You remember very well!!Yes we tried to make Todd happy and changed the direction of the straps... Our Jacket had the straps facing backwards.
Harrison Ford wore a US Wings I.E. Cooper Jacket.. www.cooper-jackets.com www.cooperjackets.com
I was the money man for Neil Cooper until He went online and I pulled the Plug on Cooper... He is no longer in business.
Yes that is one of our Jackets seen in the Truck Chase...Worn by Harrison Ford...
Now for some more news.. All of the VIPs at Disney own a US Wings Indy Jacket along with some heavy weights world wide...
Have you ever played Golf.... Drive for show.. Or put in the hole for money!!... Our Jackets for the money are the best in the world...
And the real thing.
Sarge
PS You can post!!!

unquote.

Well, mull that over...

Regards! Michaelson

By the way, the "Todd" he's talking about is not me.

So, he says the buckle on the front strap, not the rear strap. That makes sense and does fit what we see on film.

I think in the large bottom right enhanced version that the glint on the top is a slider bar as it's some what concentrated in the middle. Seems like there's a bump there.

I'm not sure the front strap being attached to the front of the loop is right because it would leave a fairly large gap between that and the center loop. (and I think you can see the front bar of the buckle) You are right there doesn't seem to be a reflection, but I think you can fairly plainly see the 90 degree rounded bend going in the the front bar of the buckle.

Oops, didn't realize there was another page when I posted this. I thought i was after Puppetboy's post with the pictures.

So the jacket in the truck chase scene is NOT a Wested?


-I.C.

Yes that is one of our Jackets seen in the Truck Chase...Worn by Harrison Ford...

And I am Pope John Paul the 2nd. Guys, OK there maybe were 10 or so jackets made for the film and logic says one was given to Harrison Ford and the others to stuntmen. I don't see why HF had to change his jacket in every scene. Because it got dirty?

The scene where these screen caps are taken from is a one shot take. It lasts only 3 seconds (from 1:24:03 to 1:24:06). Do you think that they changed the jacket during filming that 3 sec take?

I don't understand why you bother with the 10th pic when you have 9 others that say it's the other way.

Why don't you try to explain this pic with your theory?

Based on the lower right image, it looks as if the front strap is looped around the front bar of the buckle (permanently) and and the rear loose strap is doubled back, passed under the center bar and looped back under the rear bar. That would mean that the straps are reversed.

So, he says the buckle on the front strap, not the rear strap. That makes sense and does fit what we see on film.

In theory it could stand. But look how it looks in practice. No relation to the screen.



To help everybody understand my arguments I present you a small tutorial













I have some more interest screen caps which I am saving for next time.

Puppetboy wrote:By the way, the "Todd" he's talking about is not me.

.

That is correct. He's talking about _.

PLATON, looking forward to seeing more examples, Your Grace.

Regards! Michaelson

Yeah, that shows what I described above. A big gap. Your tutorial looks perfectly feasible Platon. I think we are just pretty much trying to decide if it's a slider bar or solid tri-glide. I think you've already got "the one" on your jacket IMO.

I don't get the whole 3 second shot and change jackets. Why wouldn't he be waring the same jacket all or most of that truck scene? (unless it got damaged) (dragged behind the truck)

OK there maybe were 10 or so jackets made for the film and logic says one was given to Harrison Ford and the others to stuntmen. I don't see why HF had to change his jacket in every scene. Because it got dirty?

I don't get the whole 3 second shot and change jackets. Why wouldn't he be waring the same jacket all or most of that truck scene? (unless it got damaged) (dragged behind the truck)

You guys need to understand that if they have a rack of 10 of the same jackets then he may grab a different one to do another take of the same scene after coming back from lunch. It's that simple. This happens all the time in film work, especially if they have more than one of the same costume available. If you consider the editing process then it is entirely possible for HF to have worn 3 different jackets in one scene alone. Now, is this is not probable but you have to understand it does happen and is not out of the norm at all. Just another aspect to filmmaking that is usually overlooked...unless you're an anal gearhead like some of us.

Harrison Ford wore a Cooper jacket in Raiders...

Next.

Agent5 thank you for your comments. What you say is true. However, there are some distinctive features about the jacket that show that at certain scenes the jacket was the same.

One of these features is the shape of the right pocket flap. One other is the permanent distortion of the right side zipper. One other is the distress in the back panel.

For your guidance I can indicate scenes where the jacket appears to be the same.

Now do not tell me that they have achieved to distess the back of all jackets the same way. You know that if HF wore your jacket at one scene and mine at another scene you would be able to tell immediately because you know the distintcive features of your jacket. I know mine's too.

Anyhow, I kindly suggest you to watch again that scene. It's a moment in the truck chase where HF moves from the center of the front of the truck to the front of the left wheel. The he looks behind his back. It's the moment we took those screen caps. It lasts for 3 secs and then the camera shows the car with Belloq. Anybody can tell that this was one shot and no editing was required there.

Just for the story, when the German throws Indy out of the window, that's Vic Armstrong (wearing his jacket) and when Indy tries to go under the truck that's Vic again. You know that.

Yeah, that shows what I described above. A big gap. Your tutorial looks perfectly feasible Platon. I think we are just pretty much trying to decide if it's a slider bar or solid tri-glide. I think you've already got "the one" on your jacket IMO.

I am glad we have an understanding. I think that it was the triglide and not the slider because the triglide's bar are more thick than the slider's. I am going to get the triglide very soon and when I install it on my jacket I will post photos of comparison between triglide and slider.

Thank you all.

Didn't Terry Leonard do the under the truck stunt?

St. Dumas wrote:Harrison Ford wore a Cooper jacket in Raiders...

Next.

Looks like we have a convert!

Regards! Michaelson

Didn't Terry Leonard do the under the truck stunt?

Yeah maybe, I am not sure which. What I mean is that stuntmen did that and not Ford.

If the jacket Ford wore on the front of the truck is a Cooper jacket then can't the Sgt. fill us in on the details of the side fastener hardware which was used?

Wouldn't they have had access to the exact same patterns as Leather Concessionaries did back when the film was made? If you had the same jacket coming from different companies for one film then the jackets would have to be pretty exact.

I think Platon's persistance here may have brought out the smoking gun.

I think the jacket used for when Ford is hanging on the front of the truck may indeed be a Cooper as stated. I've gone over Raiders frame-by-frame quite a few times and the waxiness and courseness of the leather has always bothered me. Never giving it much more thought than that it definitely looked different than all the other jackets.

I keep looking at the hardware trying to figure out it's construction and how it could still be a two piece fastener and then one thing hit me today while looking at it that sets it totally apart from all the other Raiders jackets we see on screen.

The length of the side straps is alot shorter than all the others.

That and the fact that the leather is obviously different than all the others. But, I think Platon may have started the chain reaction to us getting this solved. Maybe. As we all know, any solid info after 25 years is like finding a triglide in a stack of a million rectagular black fasteners.

So, I think the Cooper solution is a very good theory. This would explain why the Sgt. assures us he made jackets for the film. It would explain why the side straps are facing backwards on this one jacket. It would explain the use of different hardware than we're used to seeing on any screen used Indy jacket to date as well as substantiate what Peter had been telling us all along, that he never used anything other than 2 piece rectangular rings or D-rings. It would also explain the side strap that appears to be about half the length of all the other side straps we see on all the other Raiders jackets on screen.

I wish there was a way to confirm all of this, but then again, we all know how that goes.

Some of the frames below (IMHO) clearly illustrate the doubled up side straps as we've been doing for a while now. but that one frame on the front of the truck is most definitely different.

I don't know what information he'd be willing to share anymore, agent5. Folks have dissed the Cooper history so long it's hard to say. I can ask him, but it could also explain why the patterns went missing for so long...they may have ended up at Cooper. Remember, even the designer stated that the jackets were expected to arrive late from the subcontractor (Wested), so they approached Western Costume to make some jackets for the start of the movie.

We know that Wilson Leather was one of those companies that made between 8 and 10 jackets (source of this information was the costume designer herself). At the time of Raiders (and continuing to this day) the firm of Phillip-Morris talent agency (representatives of Harrison Ford), and the law firm of Lucasfilm were close personal friends of Neil Cooper and David Hack. Prehistory has it that jackets were also made by Cooper and supplied to the production through that connection.

When the Wested jackets arrived on set, the story told the most often is that the extra jackets were returned to Western Costume, but there is no record by WC that the jackets were returned, and in my phone call interviews with the Paramount prop folks back in the mid 80's, THEY stated all they recall returning to Western Costume were undamaged shirts and trousers (which have been seen and documented in old Western Costume clearance sales in years past), but no jackets.

So, were the 'extra jackets' just incorporated into the film in the scenes where it really didn't matter if they were destroyed or not? Does this explain why some of the jackets depth of the action pleat seems to go all over the scale? Does it explain why some straps go forward, and others to the back? Why the pocket sizes changed constantly? Were there more than 3 sets of patterns floating around? We know there had to be at least two, based on interviews with the designer herself. Think of all the inconsistancies we've discussed ad nasium with no closure?

Until this post, there's never really been any pictorial evidence of a Cooper design rearward pull strap jacket as Wings/Cooper has claimed existed in Raiders since the beginning of this hobby. The claims of Wings has always been ignored, so once agent5, it's hard to say what the Sgt. may be willing to share anymore. Wings just stays out of the debate now and continues to sell jackets day in and day out. It also finally explains to me why Wings suddenly dropped the project they were working on with _ several years ago, as it was just to much to ask for them to take a jacket they'd claimed to be a part of Raiders history in it's original configuration, and make it into a Wested. They changed the strap direction to match what folks wanted, but stopped at that.

Based on the above, I'm wondering if they're chuckling now if they knew this string existed where this buckle and strap set up is being pursued, and we're NOW trying to make a Wested jacket.... a Cooper?

It does connect a LOT of dots for me that I've pondered for years, though.

Regards! Michaelson

If the jacket Ford wore on the front of the truck is a Cooper jacket then can't the Sgt. fill us in on the details of the side fastener hardware which was used?

Yeah, rather than making heavy weight statements like the below

All of the VIPs at Disney own a US Wings Indy Jacket along with some heavy weights world wide...
Have you ever played Golf.... Drive for show.. Or put in the hole for money!!... Our Jackets for the money are the best in the world...
And the real thing.

Oh, I don't know PLATON, no more heavy handed than some of yours lately. Care to review your 'BEST TROUSERS FOR 2007' string?

Just pulling your leg, my friend!

Regard! Michaelson

I think the jacket used for when Ford is hanging on the front of the truck may indeed be a Cooper as stated.

You know what? Maybe the jacket that the stuntman wore in the truck chase scene was a Cooper.

If you notice you will see it differs from the one Ford wears.

Michaelson wrote:

St. Dumas wrote:Harrison Ford wore a Cooper jacket in Raiders...

Next.

Looks like we have a convert!

Regards! Michaelson

Actually, I was being facetious when I wrote that. I had taken it for a given that Peter Botwright made the jackets used in Raiders. In any event, this is some good detective work going on, given the passage of 25 years.

St. Dumas wrote:[Actually, I was being facetious when I wrote that.

I know, and I was a bit 'tongue in cheek' myself.

Wested is and always WILL be the jacket maker of record....but as we're finally seeing from the supplied screen captures, Wested wasn't the ONLY jacket involved in Raiders. agent5 and PLATON pried open the top of the box and we can finally see examples. agent5 has been showing us these photos for years...but we never really noticed the strap/buckle setup. PLATON then put a microscope to that configuration, and those loose pieces are falling into place (at least for me and the information I've personally collected all these years.)

I tip my fedora to you, gentlemen, and offer my personal thanks!

Regards! Michaelson

That first pic of agent5s is certainly a looped back strap configuration. Were the rest supposed to show that as well or be the many different jackets?

Yes, congrats to Platon for inadvertently, possibly cracking the case on some long running mysteries!

However, even though there is at least ONE jacket like with tri-glide or center slider I'm not sure I'd go changing my jacket. Now it really just becomes personal preference what you use. (similar to how you bash your hat or which replica pants you prefer)

IndyDoc wrote: Now it really just becomes personal preference what you use. (similar to how you bash your hat or which replica pants you prefer)

Doc, that's how I've always looked upon this hobby. It's just nice to see you can actually point at film frames and say that's what such and such is based on now when it comes to the jacket.

Regards! Michaelson

Thanks, Michaelson. This coming from one of the original gangsters of Indygear. I'm 34 now and I was most likely 10 when you were contacting Paramount to find out about the gear. That's as old school as you can get.

Here is an interesting clip of the side of Vic Armstrong's stunt jacket where you can see nothing attached at the back side where the strap should go. Hmmm? Also note how low the side vent is sewn together. I never noticed that one before!





The next few demonstrate how different at least this one jacket is from the rest. Look at how small the pockets are, how large the back yoke is compared to any other Raiders jacket and also where the collar meets the storm flap. All the other Raiders jackets have the collar ending in the middle of the top of the storm flap.




Could this be the same jacket? Was the market scene shot before or after the truck chase? Anyone know?



Different scene, different location and you can tell the pockets are larger.


A few more for reference.

Could it be that the guy in this photo is Vic wearing his jacket?



Look at the cobwebs on his hat/head. That was a dangerous fall. It should have been him




So maybe Vic jacket had the looped back strap configuration and Ford's had the triglide buckle or something?

And maybe it was Vic who was wearing that Cooper jacket. Look how small pockets it has.

I wouldn't blame the stunt guys for not having straps or being undone as they would just be something else to catch on stuff.


Major scalloped pockets with round corners!

I assume that close up cobweb guy is Ford. I'd have to go back and watch the scene to see if it was cut away after that and if it shows his face in the same shot.

Guess I was wrong about the truck stunt guy.[/img]

Although most of these screen grabs are very good indeed, I'm wondering what more these frames would reveal when the IJ films are released on Blu-ray or HD-DVD with no compression at all.

I'm sure Lucas and Spielberg are being causious about releases on those new formats. I know the companies are taking their time with releases. I'm sure we can look forward to it either one of two ways. Either they'll release them when Indy 4 hits theaters or they'll wait for another super-big boxed set that'll include all 4 films, also in HD and BR.
Nomatter which one you choose to be more logical we still have to wait until 2008 or beyond. :evil:

Do you remember how long it took to get Indy and Star Wars on DVD in the first place?!

From what I've heard I'm going HD-DVD.

Oh, I don't know PLATON, no more heavy handed than some of yours lately. Care to review your 'BEST TROUSERS FOR 2007' string?

Just pulling your leg, my friend!

Your comments jokes etc are always very welcome. You are undeniably the archbishop of this forum.

As for the "'BEST TROUSERS", when I wrote that the excitement was too great. It's for the people to judge what's the best and in the end of the day the best is what each of us prefer.... (wait to see the shirt I'm making)


Ha! Gotcha!.

PLATON wrote:As for the "'BEST TROUSERS", when I wrote that the excitement was too great. It's for the people to judge what's the best and in the end of the day the best is what each of us prefer.... (wait to see the shirt I'm making)


Ha! Gotcha!.

WELL said, my friend....WELL said!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Unfortunately, I think this is a LC jacket, but it's definitely got the d-ring.

Rixter wrote:Although most of these screen grabs are very good indeed, I'm wondering what more these frames would reveal when the IJ films are released on Blu-ray or HD-DVD with no compression at all.

I've wondered the same thing of late, old friend. Remember when all we could do was buy yet another ticket to go see the movie so we (hopefully) could catch another glimpse of a particular piece of gear?

To this day my oldest piece of gear is my web belt buckle that has seen at least a half dozen belts come and go since I purchased it back in 1981. Problem is, it's silver, and always HAS been silver, because I thought for years that I had seen Indy wearing a black web belt on his trousers with a silver buckle. It wasn't until YEARS later I discovered I was totally wrong....but still, I wear the buckle every day with a black belt as a reminder that anytime I think I KNOW something to be a 'fact' in this hobby, more than likely the technology will continue to improve that will show I was NOT correct at all.
It's happened before, and I know it will happen again.

This string has opened yet another 'portal' to the understanding of some of the nuances we like to study, and like I said before, it really ties together a bunch of loose and what seemed to be conflicting information I had gathered over 20 years ago.

What will we 'know' in another 5 years?

Regards! Michaelson

We SHOULD know whether Indy 4 was any good, and if there will be an Indy 5 and 6.

Doc, we thought back back in '96 too.....and here we still stand, waiting.....

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Doc, we thought back back in '96 too.....and here we still stand, waiting.....

Regards! Michaelson

Well they didn't officially announce it back then did they?

As officially as they could, I suppose.

Let's just say the usual 'authorities' reported things were well on the way to production....then nothing. I'll admit, this time the heavy weights have weighed in to report same, so there's a LOT more to go on than before.

Regards! Michaelson

Yeah, that's true. In '96 the internet wasn't much at all...I MIGHT have been doing email at that point.