Club Obi Wan

Man is gutenberg.org a goldmine! Just typed in australia, and since all the books there are pretty old, they're about exploring, mining and adventuring. Found a little more on stockwhips:

From the Book The Gold Hunter's Adventures, by William H. Thomes:
"while the drivers, armed with whips, the lashes of which were of immense length, though the stock or handle was barely two and a-half feet long, whirled them over the frightened animals' heads, and whenever they struck the poor brutes, a small, circular piece of skin was taken out, leaving the quivering flesh exposed to the sun, and a prey for the numerous insects that hovered in the air."
"...for they know that it requires a powerful arm to use a stock-whip..."

Five Years in New Zealand, by Robert B. Booth (1912):
The stockwhip is composed of a lash of plaited raw hide, twelve to fifteen feet long, and about one and half inches thick at the belly, which is close to the handle. The latter is about nine inches long, made of some hard tough wood, usually[Pg 47] weighted at the hand end. The experienced stockman can do powerful execution with these whips, one blow from
which is sufficient to cut a slice out of the beast's hide, and I have seen an expert cut from top to bottom the side of a nail can with a single blow from his whip.

Conclusion: The length of the handle varied greatly, since both 2 1/2 feet and 9 inches are mentioned. I suppose the 9-inch one would resemble the modern bullwhip, or something like the one Linda Stirling is holding.

Anyways, more to come!

montana

A couple of whip-shots from the first episode "The Golden God". I know the quality stinks, and the pictures turned out pretty small, but hey, it's an old budget movie. Zoom in for better view.




The series sure are exciting, I'd recomend this to anyone who likes good adventure. The zorro actor sure did his homework on whip-cracking. He does all the classics, whip swords, guns etc. out of his enemies hands.

I suppose I could record the sound when he cracks, but I have no idea where to upload audio-files. Could anyone help me out?

I will get more screengrabs as the times goes. Stay tuned.

montana

Adam you might be right. I have seen some old muleskinner whips like what you described too, where the thong was just tied on to a notched area at the tip of the handle so its very possible that is what we are seeing. I haven’t watched “Zorro’s Black Whip” yet though so couldn’t say for sure. Even though her whip is not the classical Australian stock whip as we know it, the over all shape (minus a well defined swing belly) with the smooth look of plaiting and the taper looks a lot more Australian then the typical American made whips being built at that time. I would have guessed that they just picked it out from the prop department as these films where pretty low budget, but I’ve been wrong before. I think this film and its sequel have recently been re-released on DVD, it would probably be worth checking out.

Montana. Most of this information isn’t online yet; it comes from old newspaper articles and books that David Morgan, Paul Nolan and Myself (and others) have found over the years. The specific article I mentioned is called "Fairbank's Wicked Whip." And was originally printed in the New York Times, May 31 1925. Sorry I don’t have an online source for it.

Cecil Henderson was and still is considered one of the whip making greats, he was the last of 3 generations of whip makers and passed away sometime in the late 1950s early 60s. While alive he worked out of a family run shop in Sydney Australia and spent over 50 years making whips. He was known for very intricate and fine plaiting and made whips up to 56 plait. He made whips for the likes of Will Rodgers, Rex Baker and Tim McCoy among others, examples of his work can be seen in David Morgan’s Whips and Whip making book and at the Cowboy hall of fame Museum in Oklahoma and on this site. All the others I know of that are still around are in private collections.

Reginald or Rex “Snowy” Baker was considered one of Australia's great athletes; He was an Olympic boxer and later came to the U.S. to work in Hollywood. He starred in a number of films and was a horse trainer, whip expert and stunt person, and as mentioned trained Fairbanks Sr. Tim McCoy and Lash LaRue among others how to crack whips. You shouldn’t have trouble finding information on him by searching online. There was also a book written by Greg Growden called the Snowy Baker Story that chronicles his life.

Aside from the introduction of modern materials like graphite and fiberglass rods for handles, the general design of the stock whip really hasn’t changed that much over time. There have been some improvements towards shortening up of the keeper to make it more suited to trick work, and the use of lead shot was more common to weight stock whip thongs in the old days then it is today. The short handled bullwhip like the Indy whip was more of An American designed whip, which adopted Australian construction techniques in more recent years. You might want to check out http://www.murphywhips.com/news.html#Whip%20Collectors: there is some information there about older stock whips. They also come up on eBay every now and then. I know I have a some photos of various vintage whips saved, If i get a chance i'll look for them. I didn’t take the originals so I won't post them here, however; I don’t have a problem e-mailing them to you if you want to look at them.

Good job finding that additional info on the Gutenberg site and thanks for posting the link to the Zorro’s fighting legion. From the photos, there’s no doubt he’s using an Australian stock whip. I will have to watch those, they look good.

Just as an FYI, There is another documentary available on DVD called the Many faces of Zorro with Anthony DeLongis and Tim Weske that gives a look into the legend of Zorro over the years and features some of the sword and whip skills used in the movies.

Dan

Montana,

There are some pictures of a couple of Henderson whips including a 48 plait in this post:

viewtopic.php?t=17666

Also, it's hard to tell from the photos, but the stockwhips in these pictures both have some Henderson characteristics. I really wouldn't be surprised if they both were made by him.

1937

1939


Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Thanks for the good replies. I visited the links you posted. Very helpful. I don't think Zorros whip-handles can be longer than about 17 inches in the two pics above. Also, what is this "cane" made of used in whip handles?
And also, are the Henderson-whips in the other thread 'roo hide?

I would guess that those handles are about 20 or 21 inches, the length varies but that’s is pretty standard on most stock whips. Usually shorter handles are more commonly seen on shorter yarding whips then the full length stock whips. Yes those Henderson stock whips in the other thread that Paul posted are made from Kangaroo hide.

The cane im talking about is typically Toheti cane, its a naturally growing cane which is still a very popular choice for handles as it is strong and still somewhat flexible. Since Stock whips where traditionally used on horse back, if you happen to fall or get thrown from your horse, this type of cane which is similar to a jungle vine like bamboo, Would not form a sharp point if broken, like a wooden handle would which could injure the rider in a fall. It can also be split or quartered and reinforced with a steel rod for added strength. The majority of the half plaited stock whip handles you see are made of this type of cane.

Dan

Do you think the Toheti-cane was used in Stockwhips in the 19th and first half of 20th century? And in the 1937-1939 Zorro whip?

more pics from Zorro's Fighting Legion:








I belive that a couple of different whips were used. Sometimes the handle is very short, and sometimes it is long like the stockwhip we know.
a couple of pics are from underwater, so don't think Zorro is able to fly

montana

Toheti cane was used for handles on those early stock whips and yes there is a there is a good chance that the 1937 and 39 Zorro stock whip handles are made from toheti cane too, but since they are completely plaited, I couldn’t say for sure.

Dan

BullWhipBorton wrote: Cecil Henderson was and still is considered one of the whip making greats, he was the last of 3 generations of whip makers and passed away sometime in the late 1950s early 60s. While alive he worked out of a family run shop in Sydney Australia and spent over 50 years making whips.

Dan

Hi Dan,

I don't mean to nit-pick, but I was looking through my notes and Info I have on Henderson and the last piece of correspondence from him was from May 12th, 1960. So, I would assume he passed away sometime in the 60's. I remember hearing that the Henderson familiy was prone to Heart Failure. In 1960 he would have been making whips for 55 years, at 69 years old.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Where can I find information on Toheti itself, not when used in handles?
Is it made form some kind of tree? Tried Wikipedia, no luck.

montana

Thanks Paul, Feel free to nit pick. Your right, It wasn’t until sometime after 1960.

Montana, you might try looking in some of the Australian Bush craft books and journals for more information or even looking up some of the botanical guides of Australia, but honestly other then that I don’t know. Maybe one of the other whip makers can help. Aside from the mention of it in some of the whip making books, I know its sometimes used in making cane furniture. I’ve never found much, if any information on it online. I’ve been told it’s similar or possibly related lawyer vine, which is also sometimes used for making whip handles too but to less extent. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Dan

I thought you would find this one familiar:



I am 100 percent sure Lucas and Spielberg watched this serial before making Star Wars & Indiana Jones. In one scene zorro is almost crushed by moving walls, much like the heroes of Star Wars. Also, on another occasion, Zorro is walking across a rope-bridge, when two indians cut the ropes, adn the bridge falls with zorro on it! How ToD can it get?

montana

another battery of pics, hopefully it will give yo a good view of the handle:







definitley leather over the handle.

Adam, I don't think the handle of Linda Sterling's whip is leather covered. I have the DVD, and it has a sheen on it like laquered wood, and yeah. It is a short handled stock whip more than a bullwhip.

I think a lot of that was so little Linda could throw that 14' beastie around, (not a knock on gender here. Lord knows I wouldn't want to go whip cracking toe-to-toe with the likes of Karen Quest, or our own Texas Native whip-cracker, Holly, but the stunt coordinator for "Zorro's Black Whip" wasn't that great, and it's pretty clear that Linda had very little instruction with that thing.)

They also don't do much in the way of whip noises in that serial either.

As to Cecil Henderson's work....<DROOL> Some of the most beautiful, intricate, and rugged plaiting EVER!

I've cracked a Henderson whip that was at least 50 years old, and that thing was...just....art.

Just picked up Doug Fairbank's "Don Q, Son of Zorro," in which the Henderson Stockwhip plays a far greater role than the sword, (and on all honesty, it plays a larger role than Mary Pickford, the female lead!) Fairbanks was a BRILLIANT physical performer, and you can certainly see where Uncle George and Uncle Steve got much of their inspiration for Indy!

All the best,

-Dan

thefish wrote:Adam, I don't think the handle of Linda Sterling's whip is leather covered. I have the DVD, and it has a sheen on it like laquered wood, and yeah. It is a short handled stock whip more than a bullwhip.

I think a lot of that was so little Linda could throw that 14' beastie around, (not a knock on gender here. Lord knows I wouldn't want to go whip cracking toe-to-toe with the likes of Karen Quest, or our own Texas Native whip-cracker, Holly, but the stunt coordinator for "Zorro's Black Whip" wasn't that great, and it's pretty clear that Linda had very little instruction with that thing.)

They also don't do much in the way of whip noises in that serial either.

As to Cecil Henderson's work....<DROOL> Some of the most beautiful, intricate, and rugged plaiting EVER!

I've cracked a Henderson whip that was at least 50 years old, and that thing was...just....art.

Just picked up Doug Fairbank's "Don Q, Son of Zorro," in which the Henderson Stockwhip plays a far greater role than the sword, (and on all honesty, it plays a larger role than Mary Pickford, the female lead!) Fairbanks was a BRILLIANT physical performer, and you can certainly see where Uncle George and Uncle Steve got much of their inspiration for Indy!

All the best,

-Dan

Could you get any screengrabs from that movie? I'd be delighted to see that whip!

Dan, I wouldn’t mind seeing some screen grabs of Linda Sterling's whip either, if you could get a couple. I noticed Best Buy has the DVD on there website as a double feature with some of the other Zorro serials at a pretty inexpensive price.

BTW, Here are a couple publicity stills from Don Q, Son of Zorro, they show his Henderson stock whips that he used in the film.

Very nice. I wonder if only half of the handle is plaited? Or is the lower half of the handle just very smoth-plaited?

Dan,

You beat me to it! I was gonna post those same pictures, lol, )

Montana,

The whole handle is plaited, on that type of stockwhip henderson tended to start with a checkerboard plait and then go into the regular "V" pattern herringbone plait, which is much more smooth looking on a handle. Also, chances are that handle is at least 24 plait or more.

Here is a picture of a Henderson handle that looks very similar to the one in the Fairbanks picture. It starts in 24 plait:



And then the strands are split into 48 plait:



And here is the rest of the handle:





Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Ahh, of course! Very nice!

I snagged a couple pics from "Zorro's Black Whip." The DVD transfer looks like it was done from archived BetaSP, so it's not that great.

Anyway:



Pic of The Black Whip on horseback. You can see the short handle that's not continuous to the thong like a bullwhip is.

I think Adam is right about the "Muleskinner" type whip that BWB described. In those scenes, that's what it does look and behave like.

However...





The thong/handle juncture in these pics looks much more like the stockwhip joint we're used to seeing.

Sorry they're so fuzzy. Old film, and 24-30 frame conversion screws stuff up. De-interlacing didn't help much either. I'll try to find some more good stills.

I know this is almost impossible to answer, but what hide was Zorros Fighting Legion-whip made of? If it was a Henderson, it would be roo. But cowhide wouldn't be as fragile and would stand up against dirt and sand in which it is used. Which one would be better? Or isn't it much difference between cow and roo'?

Well, from the pic, it looks too smooth to be much else but roo. I've seen some great stuff done in cow and kip, but even the best kip hide whips like I've seen from Morgan and Bernardo, just don't get that smooth looking.

Roo vs. Cow: It's a topic that's been covered again and again on this forum. To sum up, cowhide is stronger than roo hide in terms of resistance to abrasion. Roo however has far more elasticity, and can handle more torsion than cow typically can.

That's not to say that Roo isn't tough. Saying that is like saying that cow isn't stretchy.

When you consider that the Kangaroo whips from Indiana Jones were dragged through muddy jungles, submersed in water, covered in dust, sand, and fullers earth. etc. etc. etc. There's really no reason to believe the whips in Fighting Legion are anything other than roo.

Remember that these whips were purchased specifically for this terminal project. A good roo whip will last for generations if it's taken care of. Rough handling, exposure to sand, dirt, dust, moisture, etc. will shorten that lifespan. But we're talking shortening it from 70-100+ years to 5 or 10. Serious abuse, and it might get knocked down to 3 years.

That's plenty of time to shoot an adventure serial. If it's not, you just order another one.

Yeah, the old Republic serials were done on the cheap, but there was still the Hollywood idea behind it that problems get fixed by throwing more money at them. At the time, the whips were much cheaper, (even with inflation rates,) so studios would just purchase several at a time. Then you have a hero prop that gets used for the close ups and in the controlled environment of the soundstage, and then you have the stunt props that get the bejeezus beat out of them, with the prop guys fixing the problems that arise with paint and gaffers tape, (seriously. Been there. Done that.)

In Don Q, there were several whips that Fairbanks used, not necessarily of different lengths like the multiple whips used in the Indy films either, just different whips for different shots. There's actually a scene where you see SEVERAL of Don Cesar's "California Whips," but he only uses one throughout.



This is a capture from the opening scene of the film, in which Cesar's servant pulls two of his whips from this trunk, (recently arrived in Spain, with it's owner Cesar.) You can see several other similar stock whips within the trunk, (and there's not much I wouldn't give for the contents of that trunk!) So, you wear one out, you grab a new one.

Even then, kangaroo whips are far more resilient than a lot of folks give them credit for. I put my roo whips through ####, and they're still in beautiful shape. I go through falls and poppers faster than a lot of people I know though, but that's why the whip makers of old and still today make them easily changable. They might not be "Factory Fresh" when I hand them down to my grandkids, but they'll still be functional. And if not, I call up Paul Nolan and tell him to get his geriatric behind out of his Kraftmatic IV, adjustable bed, gulp down a bunch of arthritis meds and make me another. Simple.

There used to be a lot of talk on this forum, (still is,) about not swinging from your whip, and how it's actually done in the movies, (steel cables, cut aways, etc.) And it's all correct. But that's not done for the sake of the whip, that's done because of the insurance companies backing the film. But if you know what's good for your whip, you won't go swinging across chasms with it.

However, that does not mean that it can't be done. It can, in fact, in the new edition of David Morgans "Whips and Whip Making,"* he actually talks about the design of the 450 series, (he never DESIGNED the whips specifically for Indiana Jones. They just happened to be in Vic Armstrong's arsenal when he came to do the stunt coordination.) Morgan designed the 450 series with stunt folks in mind. Heavier thong with wider laces to meet the needs of Hollywood stuntmen, allowing them to do wraps on potentially hard, sharp objects, and to handle the weight of a stuntman so he could swing from it.

Roo's tougher than you think.

-Dan

*Edited later at 10:17, when I realized that I'd said Morgan wrote "The Bullwhip Book." Corrected now. Conway wrote "The Bullwhip Book." Duh...

Just wanted to anounce that I ordered Zorro Rides Again from amazon, and got it today. It's very cool, since it´s set back in the thirties in the Wild West, reminding me of the young Indy scenes from LC. The whipcracking is also cool, will try to get screengrabs later. The thing I wanted to share with y'all most is that in the first episode (the only one I've seen yet) there was a bandit, and guess what he was cracking? A bullwhip! Yep, or at least it was more bullwhip than stockwhip, since the the thong was attached to the handle like a bullwhip. I don't know if this is the only episode where this whip is used, beacuse the scene in which it is seen is pretty blurry and all.

montana