Club Obi Wan

Michaelson wrote:

Sorry Michaelson, but if that's the case you and _ are missing the point.

Nope, as you just read, we're not missing a thing, my friend.

Regards! Michaelson

Well it's about the sitting at the dockside photo. It's only been about that photo and the jacket in it.

The other photos are more of an aside, and maybe something to get to later. There is still more info about them because the jacket in them does appear to have a low yoke, and if so it's even more interesting now since it is a different location of shooting (Ellstree) and the jacket should now look like all others, if the "the Westeds were in place..."

Well it's about the sitting at the dockside photo. It's only been about that photo and the jacket in it.

I know that, and YOU know that.....but others have been dragging the other jacket into the fray, and the path was lost several times.

Regards! Michaelson

_ wrote:

RCSignals wrote:The dockside/still jacket does most resemble the jacket worn by TL for the truck drag sequence (as well as on horse back which I consider part of the sequence) The only discrepancy is the jacket worn in the dockside/still does appear to have a real back pleat, quite different from the jacket TL is wearing.

Well, here's a wrinkle then... The cloth mock-up was based on the Wilson's design but with the proper action-back. Anyone wanna take a look to see if they think that could be the cloth mock-up?

It's a still so should be easier for someone to study.
The jacket sure appears to be of leather, but then we don't know that the 'cloth mock up' didn't have a leather like surface appearance.

_ wrote:Some thoughts and statements of what I think I can safely call facts...

Deb Nadoolman is sorta full of herself. Maybe that's why we hit it off so famously? (grin) Now, Ford has confirmed that Deb did the Swiss knife thing by the pool. But was all this done in time for him to be wearing it on the dock? Discounting Deb's ability to deliver is not a huge step for me

So, I'll make the leap to saying it would no longer surprise me to learn that Ford wore a Wilson's jacket while waiting for the wind to die and the equipment (crane) to work while sitting dockside. Because none of that came to pass (the crane was on-and-off and the wind was playing havoc with the sound equipment), a matte with stationary clouds was located (grin) and a set prepared for a soundstage shoot (off the schedule to avoid the prying eyes of budget conscious studio execs). There are several other give-aways in that sequence - like that "Where's Waldo?" game...

By the time shooting began at Ellstree, all the Westeds were in place...

The only thing actually shot in France that made it into the can was the sub/Bantu sequence. No jackets...

All is in balance, because that dockside/still-shot jacket should look like Terry's "drag" scene... Both were Wilsons. Sorry 'bout the "drag" thing, Terry...

Did I miss anything?

Well, I was one of those people who mixed the movie still with the photo so sorry for muddying the waters there. But the above goes a long way to clearing up the things I was having trouble putting into the slots. Thanks for this work and for all of the patience!

_ wrote:Did I miss anything?

You missed my pie. I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere.

Mike wrote:I've oft-posted this shot, but will again. This is what we refer to as the "STARS" shot as it was included in a book/calendar of that name.

Was this from the same shoot as the Rolling Stone cover (and was it an Annie Leibovitz shoot)?

It looks like it could be from the same shoot as the Rolling Stone cover, but that would be pure speculation on my part.

The book has the photo credited to Bill King.




_…Strawberry Rhubarb is my favorite.

Mike wrote:It looks like it could be from the same shoot as the Rolling Stone cover, but that would be pure speculation on my part.

Same shoot I believe. Bill King the fashion photographer died of AIDS in the late 80's or early 90's. If you look at other RS covers from the late 70's you will see a number of his images and the style is somewhat unique.

If it was his shoot I wonder what happened to the negatives? Depending on how he was working and his agreement with the mag, he probably owned the rights to the images. I wonder what happened to his estate?

Interesting.

First, I don't think you need me to tell you how long is the jacket in this pic



you can see by yourselves.

Secondly, I doubt that the Bantu Wind jacket is the Wilson's.
If it was then why DN rejected it and went for the Westeds?
The Bantu Wind jacket doesn't have all the details as per the 'Temple' jacket but it looks #### good.
Also, from the way it wrinkles, I can guess it's lamb.

As far as I can remember the Wilson, not only was cow but was a different design.
Also I think Peter's first jacket made it to La Rochelle in time.

I am guessing that maybe DN's personal distressing job could have been so bad (gimme a break, with a pocket knife?) that they decided not to use this jacket later in the film. But for the time being, was the only one they had and since the Bantu Wind boarding was in the dark, nobody could see the bad distressing job, or even damage that DN could have done to the jacket, maybe.

PLATON wrote:First, I don't think you need me to tell you how long is the jacket in this pic



you can see by yourselves.

YES! IT'S SSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!

Ahem. Glad I got that out of my system.

PLATON wrote:Secondly, I doubt that the Bantu Wind jacket is the Wilson's.
If it was then why DN rejected it and went for the Westeds?
...
Also I think Peter's first jacket made it to La Rochelle in time.

I think it's quite possible it didn't, thus the answer to question #1.

PLATON wrote:I am guessing that maybe DN's personal distressing job could have been so bad (gimme a break, with a pocket knife?) that they decided not to use this jacket later in the film. But for the time being, was the only one they had and since the Bantu Wind boarding was in the dark, nobody could see the bad distressing job, or even damage that DN could have done to the jacket, maybe.

This I could absolutely believe! But maybe she didn't care because it was the cowhide Wilson's.

Except there is still no proof that the Bantu Docside is a Wilson's, aside from speculation.

One more thing I need to say is that, the jacket that inspired the 80s fit Chris King 919 pattern could have been the below,



but certainly, it wasn't the temple, or the raven, or the wing fight scene jacket, which has a fuller cut.

Kt Templar wrote:Except there is still no proof that the Bantu Docside is a Wilson's, aside from speculation.

You betcha KT - but that's where the fun begins.

PLATON wrote:...but certainly, it wasn't the temple, or the raven, or the wing fight scene jacket, which has a fuller cut.

Platon, If you have "the Complete Making of" book, open it and look for a full page shot of them filming the Raven fight - the jacket is WAY short - as short as mine.

Yojimbo Jones wrote:

PLATON wrote:...but certainly, it wasn't the temple, or the raven, or the wing fight scene jacket, which has a fuller cut.

Platon, If you have "the Complete Making of" book, open it and look for a full page shot of them filming the Raven fight - the jacket is WAY short - as short as mine.

No it is not, You want to see it as short.

neutronbomb wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:Except there is still no proof that the Bantu Docside is a Wilson's, aside from speculation.

I know you threw out the theory that the bantu wind was Peter's first prototype and it looks like because of your fondness for Peter that you would hate to see that not be true.

So unless Peter wants to come on an answer directly questions that have been asked and unanswered and information you have posted that directly contradicts previous statements he's made and to say that indeed he made the jacket that HF is wearing sitting dockside and it was different than all the other, then you, platon, and dutch have a problem with overcoming the fact the bantu wind jacket has lined up sleeve and yoke seam, lower yoke, different pleat, and straps attached to the inside. Peter would need to explain why he made his first prototype jacket this much different than the rest.

Or my, my, my......how similar it looks to the wilsons and the truck dragging stunt jacket.

You seem to need to place the Wilsons jacket where it never has been quoted before.

The one in the truck drag had to be modified to look like a Leather Concessionaires. This is an odd circular argument, except the Bantu CANNOT be the Wilson's because the original Wilsons was basically an A2 minus the knits. No pleats, they had to be faked in for the truck drag.

Position of the yoke to arm ratio changes jacket by jacket and machinist to machinist. Plus none of the pics are in any way conclusive.

You're gonna need stronger arguments. Or better pics.

The Bantu still looks like a lambskin Leather Concessionaires to me. The Truck Drag something else.

The sleeve body ratio is nowhere near the one on the zero jacket.

Dutch don't start a length discussion here please. It's pointless.

You're probably right.
Well the important thing is now that the jacket on the Bantu Wind boarding scene is not a Wilsons. Its the first jacket Deborah had. Which was a Leather concessionaires jacket.

Nope - The cloth mock-up was a Wilson pattern with a working action pleat. You are making things up again, my friend...

My friend, I don't wanna make up anything.
But wasn't the reason why the went to Peter the fact that they didn't like the Wilson?
What didn't they like about it? The color? Or the design and leather?

except the Bantu CANNOT be the Wilson's because the original Wilsons was basically an A2 minus the knits. No pleats, they had to be faked in for the truck drag.

KT seems to remember the same thing as myself.

Position of the yoke to arm ratio changes jacket by jacket and machinist to machinist. Plus none of the pics are in any way conclusive.

KT you find me in full agreement with this.

and it looks like because of your fondness for Peter that you would hate to see that not be true.

neutron, this is a ridiculous theory. There's no fondness. I will have fondness for whoever vendor wants to send me a jacket free of charge.

Are a few of you here on a personal vendetta to shut down every jacket thread that starts?

Neutronbomb…blatent baiting. You're on thin ice. Knock it off.

Dutch. You're on your last leg too. Watch it.

Sorry to call you out in public, but I'm sick of it. And I'm not hiding behind SAG to do so. Grow up.

It's been stated AD NASEUM that Peter wouldn't have been on set, so how would he know to state whether or not his jacket was there? You have confirmed reports again and again why statements are made and quoted. Leave it at that and believe what you want.

We also know through many an order that no two Westeds are hardly ever alike, so why could it be an impossibility that the first hero jacket was sent and aged and put on someone's back BEFORE the remainder arrived and thus there are some inconsistencies in patterns? I bet we measure 10 different yokes at random, we'll get 10 different measurements. If the first jacket wasn't on hand to compare/create patterns from for the rest of the run, logic stands that there would be inconsistencies.

Everyone grow a pair and let it drop. The bickering stops now.



…and to think I was nice and relaxed after Finger Lakes.

One down. Anyone else?

Hey, everybody...IT'S FRIDAY!!! YEEEAAAAHHHH!!!

Doesn't happen often does it!

In my view, a key question to be answered is:

-Why are the patterns of the early (90s) Wested's and the Bantu Wind/Martin Grace jackets so similar?

Some refresher pics of the 90s Wested compared the Grace Jacket.





Have a better one, fellas!

Sebas that is a LC jacket in the picture. Martin Grace's jacket is from another year of auction I believe.

_ wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:Doesn't happen often does it!

Fancy a pint? I'm buying...

A5 - I really needed the pink bunny...



How do women sit like that, anyway...

Cheers!

Now if she is serving it even better!

The first photo in the post above is 'how we see it'. The second photo is 'how it really is'....

Very appropriate for this particular thread....

Regards! Michaelson

Dutch_jones wrote:Sebas that is a LC jacket in the picture. Martin Grace's jacket is from another year of auction I believe.

Don't think so... That's the Martin Grace jacket from Raiders...

neutronbomb wrote:Holt and Mac have done show some very convincing arguments on how the bantu wind/sitting by the dock jacket is the same one as the truck dragging jacket. Made completely differently than Peters jackets.

Actually NB, my thrust was more along the lines of, based on the similar yoke and pocket placement of the Bantu and TL (both of which are unlike Ford’s other jackets), maybe this particular TL jacket is not the Wilsons jacket:


Click to enlarge.

We don’t know the context of the TL photos above, so maybe this is not the truck drag/Wilsons jacket.

In the dockside Ford Bantu Wind photo, I really don’t believe there is enough detail or resolution in the shot to make a judgment on internal vs. external straps.

Based on the action pleat, I can’t see the Bantu jacket as anything other than a Leather Concessionaires.

_ wrote:The jacket I examined was a Leather Concessionaires - it had deep pleats.

_, what was the pleat depth measurement of that jacket?


This one is just for KT and _:



- Mac

Mac wrote:......
Actually NB, my thrust was more along the lines of, based on the similar yoke and pocket placement of the Bantu and TL (both of which are unlike Ford’s other jackets), maybe this particular TL jacket is not the Wilsons jacket:


Click to enlarge.

We don’t know the context of the TL photos above, so maybe this is not the truck drag/Wilsons jacket.

.......

Sure we do, it's related to the truck drag scene, as is the photo you posted of TL on horseback. The photos were posted before as well, and are in the write up identified as the Wilson's jacket. Do you see any 'real' action pleat?

Dutch_jones wrote:Sebas that is a LC jacket in the picture. Martin Grace's jacket is from another year of auction I believe.

On that I believe you are correct Dutch. The centre pictured jacket is an LC.

LC jacket. Ha! dont make me laugh. that just screams raiders to me or and old wested/leather concess raiders jacket.


were is the LC give aways besides the distressing?

_ wrote:........ She confirmed aging the whole jacket herself by the pool - "It had to be ready for shooting the next day." She said she put it on Harrison's back herself - and handed him his knife, which he put in the pocket of the jacket.

Kelly Kimball called me this morning. She confirms that she and Deb went over the jacket on location before "Deb put it on Harrison herself". Kelly then placed the order for the rest of the jackets right then, herself.

That's the original hero. Sorry - no Wilson. Whatever you're seeing is a play of light, shadow, and imagination. ..............

OK so that is answering some of my original questions.

The first jacket did make it to the set. From your posts it made it to the Elstree shoot of the dockside first?
How quickly was the second order filled, and how soon after the Elstree shoot of the dockside were the real dockside Bantu Wind scenes filmed? That would point to the jacket in those scenes being the same jacket or not.
It jacket that appears in those outside real dockside photos looks like it also has a low yoke. That's about all that is clear in those picture.

Can we safely say the other jackets we see on Ford in the movie were from the second order? The jackets with the higher yoke etc. That makes them quite different from the first jacket. Did the first jacket then become Grace's jacket?

Indiana Holt wrote:LC jacket. Ha! dont make me laugh. that just screams raiders to me or and old wested/leather concess raiders jacket.


were is the LC give aways besides the distressing?

The distressing you mention, and the pocket corners.

What Raiders jacket is distressed like that?

Mac wrote:

neutronbomb wrote:Holt and Mac have done show some very convincing arguments on how the bantu wind/sitting by the dock jacket is the same one as the truck dragging jacket. Made completely differently than Peters jackets.

Actually NB, my thrust was more along the lines of, based on the similar yoke and pocket placement of the Bantu and TL (both of which are unlike Ford’s other jackets), maybe this particular TL jacket is not the Wilsons jacket:

FYI, I wouldn't bother addressing any more posts to NB. They won't be answered.

RCSignals wrote:Sure we do, it's related to the truck drag scene, as is the photo you posted of TL on horseback. The photos were posted before as well, and are in the write up identified as the Wilson's jacket.

Of course it’s related to the truck drag, RC, but as far as I can tell, we don’t know specifically that this is the actual truck drag cowhide jacket. These photos came from the “Making Of” video (they may be in the Greatest Movie Stunts as well), but for all we know, based on the brief shot in the video (no real context), Terry could be wearing his lamb Concessionaires jacket truck (thick with dust for continuity) and had just completed some shot on top of the truck that was eventually discarded or otherwise not included in the final edit. In the TL photos posted above we don’t see him climb out from under the truck, it’s only a single shot of him walking down the road. We don’t really know what he was doing just prior (or about to do.)

RCSignals wrote:Do you see any 'real' action pleat?

It looks like an action pleat to me in the first thumbnail above of TL, but that’s certainly not definitive and I wouldn’t discount that we all see what we want to see. As Churchill once remarked, “We occasionally stumble over the truth but most of us pick ourselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.”

As for the horseback photo, I don’t see why TL would be wearing a heavy (read hot) cowhide Wilsons while galloping through the Tunisian desert, especially with no pressing need for abrasion resistance. We know he had a Leather Concessionaires jacket, per _’s jacket examination, and that the sleeve seams lined up with the yoke (which suggests it had a lower yoke; Hey _ can you confirm?). Since he had a thinner, cooler lamb jacket, I would think he would have used it in those scenes where he wasn’t being dragged behind a truck – especially when continuity was needed for the interspersed close-ups with Ford on horseback.

- Mac

Mac wrote:

RCSignals wrote:Sure we do, it's related to the truck drag scene, as is the photo you posted of TL on horseback. The photos were posted before as well, and are in the write up identified as the Wilson's jacket.

Of course it’s related to the truck drag, RC, but as far as I can tell, we don’t know specifically that this is the actual truck drag cowhide jacket. These photos came from the “Making Of” video (they may be in the Greatest Movie Stunts as well), but for all we know, based on the brief shot in the video (no real context), Terry could be wearing his lamb Concessionaires jacket truck (thick with dust for continuity) and had just completed some shot on top of the truck that was eventually discarded or otherwise not included in the final edit. In the TL photos posted above we don’t see him climb out from under the truck, it’s only a single shot of him walking down the road. We don’t really know what he was doing just prior (or about to do.)

As I recall from the video he's walking away after completing the stunt. Prior to the stunt TL was riding a horse up to the truck.

Mac wrote:

RCSignals wrote:Do you see any 'real' action pleat?

It looks like an action pleat to me in the first thumbnail above of TL, but that’s certainly not definitive and I wouldn’t discount that we all see what we want to see. As Churchill once remarked, “We occasionally stumble over the truth but most of us pick ourselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.”

It appears to me to be the 'faux' pleat that has been previously described. Flat with a seam line.

Mac wrote:As for the horseback photo, I don’t see why TL would be wearing a heavy (read hot) cowhide Wilsons while galloping through the Tunisian desert, especially with no pressing need for abrasion resistance. We know he had a Leather Concessionaires jacket, per _’s jacket examination, and that the sleeve seams lined up with the yoke (which suggests it had a lower yoke; Hey _ can you confirm?). Since he had a thinner, cooler lamb jacket, I would think he would have used it in those scenes where he wasn’t being dragged behind a truck – especially when continuity was needed for the interspersed close-ups with Ford on horseback.

- Mac

The horesback photo is part of the truck drag sequence. Since it's TL and not Ford on the horse it makes sense that he'd be wearing the jacket he's going to wear in the truck drag, rather than ride up, stop, change jackets and carry on. The scene was filmed in one action shot, which was what TL wanted to do after his failed attempt at a similar stunt for another movie. It was a a proud moment for him.

It has been fairly well established by now that he wore an altered cowhide Wilson's jacket for that scene.

The continuity comes in with the Wilson's jacket being made to resemble the jacket Ford wears, but the action is fast and the differences are hardly noticeable. Ford does the close ups and that's all that matters in the movie. We aren't supposed to know Ford isn't doing the stunt.


Can you find a photo of Ford on Horseback wearing a jacket that has a low yoke for those scenes?



As Churchill once remarked, “We occasionally stumble over the truth but most of us pick ourselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.”

RCSignals wrote:As I recall from the video he's walking away after completing the stunt. Prior to the stunt TL was riding a horse up to the truck.

No, not in the “Making of the Trilogy” video, from where those shots were grabbed. Terry Leonard is shown walking down the road while Nadoolman talks about how there were ten jackets and all were new. The scenes before and after that show indoor shots of Ford. No context.

RCSignals wrote:The horesback photo is part of the truck drag sequence. Since it's TL and not Ford on the horse it makes sense that he'd be wearing the jacket he's going to wear in the truck drag, rather than ride up, stop, change jackets and carry on. The scene was filmed in one action shot, which was what TL wanted to do after his failed attempt at a similar stunt for another movie. It was a a proud moment for him.

That scene was not filmed in one action shot. The horseback photo is just before TL jumps on the truck for the first time and the sequence was certainly not shot in one long take. This is prior to the truck window being broken or the grille being bent. The truck sequence took several weeks to film – unquestionably TL did not go from the horseback shot I posted directly to the truck drag in one shot – plenty of time to stop and change jackets. It would make better sense if the script supervisor wanted to maintain continuity with the cuts of Ford (on horseback in a Leather Concessionaires jacket) interspersed with the Leonard footage by putting Leonard in his Concessionaires jacket (surely he used it somewhere).

RCSignals wrote:It appears to me to be the 'faux' pleat that has been previously described.

Somehow I thought you might feel this way.

My friend, I feel as though we’re…you know…





- Mac

Mac wrote:

RCSignals wrote:It appears to me to be the 'faux' pleat that has been previously described.

Somehow I thought you might feel this way.

It's not a 'feeling'

Mac wrote:My friend, I feel as though we’re…you know…





- Mac

Yes, as far as the truck drag goes, best just to search the forum for all the old discussions at his point

probably

_ wrote:RC...

My friend...

The dockside location shoot jacket is the jacket Ford wears as "the hero" other than during the dockside reshoot, Hawaii, and in a couple truck gag shots (possibly). Ms. Mann's job was to ensure continuity. It was her eye that caused them to order the three hero "replicas".

I'm afraid I have to say I agree with her. I think this is an issue of perception and there are no facts to support even questioning. Sorry - but I don't agree the there us anything that makes me think anything else...

Well it could very well be. That location photo is not the best for detail.
That sitting by the dockside photo though, is different, and would indicate that at least that one jacket of the second order (what else could it be?) was almost wildly 'off' from the first Hero. If Ford wore that dockside reshoot jacket in Hawaii, it's not the same jacket given to Tony to copy.

_ wrote:RC...

My friend...

The dockside location shoot jacket is the jacket Ford wears as "the hero" other than during the dockside reshoot, Hawaii, and in a couple truck gag shots (possibly). Ms. Mann's job was to ensure continuity. It was her eye that caused them to order the three hero "replicas".

I'm afraid I have to say I agree with her. I think this is an issue of perception and there are no facts to support even questioning. Sorry - but I don't agree the there us anything that makes me think anything else...

Have I missed something here? Isn't it well established there are at least two main hero jackets? That is, two that were used in a lot more scenes than indicated above.

RCSignals wrote:

Indiana Holt wrote:LC jacket. Ha! dont make me laugh. that just screams raiders to me or and old wested/leather concess raiders jacket.


were is the LC give aways besides the distressing?

The distressing you mention, and the pocket corners.

What Raiders jacket is distressed like that?

This one:

That jacket in the auction catologue is lit weird. But it really is a Raiders Jacket ! Thanks Holt & Sebas for making me look at it again.

Actually when re reading and looking at the pics It became clear that IS a raiders jacket ! Thank you Sebas !

Here's a slightly larger photo of that particular jacket:


Click to enlarge.

- Mac

Mac ! You da man !!!

Mac wrote:Here's a slightly larger photo of that particular jacket:


Click to enlarge.

- Mac

A better view of everything around it. Isn't that an LC hat in the photo?
It still looks more like an LC jacket with the distressing. The one we've seen that's missing it's snaps from the storm flap

Hem stitch.

Dutch_jones wrote:

RCSignals wrote:

Indiana Holt wrote:LC jacket. Ha! dont make me laugh. that just screams raiders to me or and old wested/leather concess raiders jacket.


were is the LC give aways besides the distressing?

The distressing you mention, and the pocket corners.

What Raiders jacket is distressed like that?

This one:

That jacket in the auction catologue is lit weird. But it really is a Raiders Jacket ! Thanks Holt & Sebas for making me look at it again.

Actually when re reading and looking at the pics It became clear that IS a raiders jacket ! Thank you Sebas !

I don't think you can tell that much from that photo Dutch, other than at first glance the three people in it look like they are from three different movies