Club Obi Wan

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:13 am**

I just talked to Tony, and his idea for the Raiders jacket is very compelling. Not a copy, but a re-creation. A jacket for real life. Yep, he's not copying mistakes here.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:00 am**

But there's already G&B for that... and so much more affordable.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:48 am**

Baldwyn wrote:I just talked to Tony, and his idea for the Raiders jacket is very compelling. Not a copy, but a re-creation. A jacket for real life. Yep, he's not copying mistakes here.

What worries me is - what would be considered "mistakes"?

One man's meat is another man's poison.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:20 am**

But there's already G&B for that... and so much more affordable.

But that would be like comparing a Honda with a ferrari... Both are tough and will get you where you are going! Just a different ride...

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:36 am**

By the way you’re sounding, you’d think somebody made claims of original patterns… Oh, yeah… Nevermind…

Back for only a few posts and already taking cheap shots at people.

We all know the story...let it die already. It's old like yesterday.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:57 am**

Satipo wrote:
Baldwyn wrote:I just talked to Tony, and his idea for the Raiders jacket is very compelling. Not a copy, but a re-creation. A jacket for real life. Yep, he's not copying mistakes here.
What worries me is - what would be considered "mistakes"?

One man's meat is another man's poison.

Just to clarify, I'm saying he's not copying mistakes, he never said it. And I'm thinking along the lines of copying wavy stitching, that sort of thing.

And after talking to the man? I'm not worried at all

I'm just going to wait and see and try really hard not to buy another jacket.

_ wrote:Mistakes:

Aluminum hardware is a big one...

The majority of it is stuff you'll never see but will make the jacket hold its shape and provide years of wear. Tony did not exactly copy the prototype, though on the outside it looked like a copy. I do not say that lightly - Bernie would make the most dedicated stitch Nazi cry "uncle" in the way he examines details and measurements. But Bernie also wanted it to be "the real McCoy" i.e. as tough as it really always should have been. Ask Fedora what the hats had to hold up to. Bernie wanted everything to be bullet-proof, just like the hero...

Tony has told me he knows how to balance the pattern from size to size, with the most important thing being the retention of the look for the individual wearer. While I've heard that before from jacket makers, I'm wearing a CS that "walks the walk"....

Y'all worry too much... By the way you’re sounding, you’d think somebody made claims of original patterns… Oh, yeah… Nevermind…
;-)

_, you are NOT KIDDING when you say you saw the light, and have joined the choir!

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:20 am**

I just can't wait until some of you have bought tony's jackets and decide you don't like them so i can buy them off of you for cheap!

C3

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:34 am**

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:05 am**

Tony has told me he knows how to balance the pattern from size to size, with the most important thing being the retention of the look for the individual wearer.

This is what I was getting at in my earlier post, and what I find most interesting, even if I'll likely not be able to afford one. I think this is the most important detail that could be carried over.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:19 am**

It would be very interesting to know whether the Novak 'original jackets' have a 'Bermans & Nathan' label or a 'Leather Concessionaires' label.
Both would have been my design he is copying but there is a difference.
I know I produce my own version of the CS jacket but it is only a modified LC jacket which is a modified ROLA therefore a modification of my original design.
To reproduce my original, which I still maintain to have 'Intellectual property right' too has dissapointed me as I thought Tony Novak to be more principled but then he may have been put up to it by Lucas Films.
Either way the price is ridiculous.
It is no longer a case of what can the fans afford but how much can I get away with. Just my opinion.
Peter

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:24 am**

...whatever the market will bear...

Just like gasoline prices

.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:24 am**

Have to agree with you Peter. I can own three of your jackets (from the original source) for the price of one of these new ones (if this is to be the price).

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:04 pm**

coronado3 wrote:I just can't wait until some of you have bought tony's jackets and decide you don't like them so i can buy them off of you for cheap!

C3

Hmm ...

;-)
You know, I've been meaning to say this for a while now ... I think a lot of you are buying sizes that are way too big. Why not try something smaller, like, I dunno - a 40R for instance? I mean, what have you got to lose?

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:19 pm**

I was thinking that people should start buying a 42 reg in the sleeve length with a 42 long body length! ;-)

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:35 pm**

PETER wrote:It would be very interesting to know whether the Novak 'original jackets' have a 'Bermans & Nathan' label or a 'Leather Concessionaires' label.
Both would have been my design he is copying but there is a difference.

What's that difference Peter? I mean: did you provide to the production jackets with the "Leather Concessionaires" label too? If not, this jacket can not be an original.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:36 pm**

Ha HAH! Yes!, Peter is the MAN!

I've been waiting for that.

As for Nowak or Lucas not keeping you in the loop Peter....I don't have to tell a man of your experience, Hollywood isn't very principled. Though it is surprising from Lucas because he's mister properties...well...from "A certain point of view" Lucas probably believes the jacket design came out of his creativity....

Best Wishes,

Matt

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:41 pm**

Matt, if you read back through the history of the jacket, both in the archives and on the main site, there is a LOT of back story and things are not always as clear cut as one would think.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:43 pm**

binkmeisterRick wrote:Matt, if you read back through the history of the jacket, both in the archives and on the main site, there is a LOT of back story and things are not always as clear cut as one would think.

....or hope.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:44 pm**

AMEN, brother!

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:58 pm**

moviematt1989 wrote:...from "A certain point of view" Lucas probably believes the jacket design came out of his creativity....

I could see that extrapolation, Indiana Jones came out of his creativity, and it is the jacket of Indiana Jones

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:08 pm**

But IP is IP and if it is Peter's name on the documents and not George's, that is the end of it right there...

I work with this stuf a lot, so I know the score there...

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:10 pm**

In this case, it's shared.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:16 pm**

You mean they both have documents?

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:26 pm**

From what I've been told for years, yes. That's why it's been such a 'sticky wicket' regarding licensing and the like.

I'm sure you've already done so, but if not, read the ROTLA jacket history on the main page. It's been the ROTLA jacket and that jacket alone that has shared ownership, and Peter does indeed hold IP rights on the design, but not SOLE rights. That's been his 'ace in the hole', and smart move on his part 'back in the day'. ;-)

If you'll do some reading, George Lucas has since held complete iron clad rights to all his work ever since his films went global, but was pretty lax in his contract work at the beginning.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:34 pm**

That's interesting. I wonder how that came about. I would have thought the rights would belong solely to whoever filed for them first, unless it was contested at some point.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:52 pm**

IP can be filed singly (single person or company), as well as between several individuals and/or companies...

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:56 pm**

Well, bear in mind that Peter was subcontractor to MBA, who was prime contractor to Lucasfilm, so the contract and IP was owned by the main company, Lucasfilm.....but in this case, there's apparently was a bit of a door left open that Peter has some claim.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:50 pm**

I think that this new Raiders jacket is interesting. I understand that there is going to be modifications to make this jacket bulletproof. But why, Indiana Jones is not bulletproof, he gets shot in the arm in Raiders, he gets beat up, tossed around. I guess Tony Novak is just trying to create a jacket to withstand a beating IMO. Some people like that, and this fine by me. I really stand with Peter on this, and I enjoy Peters jackets. Nothing against Tony Novak, if you want one of this jackets I am sure they are great jackets. Unfortunately his jackets are too expensive for me and I don't see how I could spend $700-$900 on one jacket. I would rather get two of Peter's. Just my two cents.

IndianaChris

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:08 pm**

It's not like Tony Nowak is or will be the only other jacket maker making a 'Raiders' jacket

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:25 pm**

PETER wrote:It would be very interesting to know whether the Novak 'original jackets' have a 'Bermans & Nathan' label or a 'Leather Concessionaires' label.
Both would have been my design he is copying but there is a difference.
I know I produce my own version of the CS jacket but it is only a modified LC jacket which is a modified ROLA therefore a modification of my original design.
To reproduce my original, which I still maintain to have 'Intellectual property right' too has dissapointed me as I thought Tony Novak to be more principled but then he may have been put up to it by Lucas Films.
Either way the price is ridiculous.
It is no longer a case of what can the fans afford but how much can I get away with. Just my opinion.
Peter

Well, before you get all up and arms over what Tony may be doing, you do realize of course that clothing designs are generally not protected under current U.S. intellectual property laws? As crazy as it might sound to some, the Indy jacket is not considered "art" and thus a fashion designer does not enjoy the same protection an artist who paints with a brush does. Since the jacket is categorized as useful and functional, rather than artistic, it cannot be copyrighted. This pretty much explains why Lucasfilm can't touch makers of Indy like jackets, but can go medieval on people who make Stormtrooper replicas. In any event, if you're gonna go on the attack against Tony, why not the other suppliers who produce a ROTLA replica?

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:48 pm**

RCSignals wrote:
moviematt1989 wrote:...from "A certain point of view" Lucas probably believes the jacket design came out of his creativity....

I could see that extrapolation, Indiana Jones came out of his creativity, and it is the jacket of Indiana Jones

But if you know Indiana Jones you know that the entire character came out of 30's Serials...of which Spielberg and Lucas openly credit Indy as tribute to.

Matt

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:01 am**

Sure, but not necessarily any single 30's serial.
There are many similar characters and stories.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:03 am**

binkmeisterRick wrote:Matt, if you read back through the history of the jacket, both in the archives and on the main site, there is a LOT of back story and things are not always as clear cut as one would think.

I see what you where saying and, really, I was just jazzed to hear Peter call this one for what it is. I did'nt claim Peter to be the sole creator of the jacket, I was simply referring the 'industry's' tendency to take all the credit and their shady ways of obtaining ownership. I've done my homework and read the back story.

Best,

Matt

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:14 am**

RCSignals wrote:Sure, but not necessarily any single 30's serial.
There are many similar characters and stories.

Point being?...They have different wardrobe? Sure, defiantly, they are different characters.

I'm simply saying that Lucas didn't dream up the costume, he's never claimed too. He actually gave a serial poster to the conceptual artist for Indy's conception. If you want to go even further, they then took those designs to Wardrobe, then Peter w/others to interpret those designs to life, It's all collaborated, that's film. The directors job is get those performances out of his crew, not take credit for them.

Best,

Matt

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:17 am**

Chewie Louie wrote:Well, before you get all up and arms over what Tony may be doing, you do realize of course that clothing designs are generally not protected under current U.S. intellectual property laws? As crazy as it might sound to some, the Indy jacket is not considered "art" and thus a fashion designer does not enjoy the same protection an artist who paints with a brush does. Since the jacket is categorized as useful and functional, rather than artistic, it cannot be copyrighted. This pretty much explains why Lucasfilm can't touch makers of Indy like jackets, but can go medieval on people who make Stormtrooper replicas. In any event, if you're gonna go on the attack against Tony, why not the other suppliers who produce a ROTLA replica?

Yes, this is probably why LFL can't take any action against people making pieces of functional clothing that happen to be in the same style as our hero wore.

But I bet if you sold an "Indiana Jones Costume" you'd have a C&D letter in a heartbeat from LFL.

They can take action to protect a trademark or copyright, so you can't go setting up a website with pictures of Indy to sell your clothes or using any of their trademarks.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:28 am**

moviematt1989 wrote:
RCSignals wrote:Sure, but not necessarily any single 30's serial.
There are many similar characters and stories.
Point being?...They have different wardrobe? Sure, defiantly, they are different characters.

I'm simply saying that Lucas didn't dream up the costume, he's never claimed too. He actually gave a serial poster to the conceptual artist for Indy's conception. If you want to go even further, they then took those designs to Wardrobe, then Peter w/others to interpret those designs to life, It's all collaborated, that's film. The directors job is get those performances out of his crew, not take credit for them.

Best,

Matt

Well hopefully not defiantly ;-)

IJ may be an amalgam of different 30's serial characters or loosely based upon them, but he is still a creation of SS and Lucas.
A vision and concept starts it off and it's developed from there, with many hands participating, as you point out. It's still a LFL development.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:55 am**

RCSignals wrote:IJ may be an amalgam of different 30's serial characters or loosely based upon them, but he is still a creation of SS and Lucas.

*cough* and Kaufmann *cough*

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:02 am**

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:47 am**

Indy wears a standard soldier of fortune type outfit as seen in many movies (forget the serials) from the thirties to the fifties. The costume was never that special or imaginative. The film was a sensation and so the costume drew us all in.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:58 am**

THink on this.
If I did not claim 'Intellectual property rights' and the whole thing belonged to Lucas Films do you think ANYONE would be making unlicenced copies.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:05 am**

PETER wrote:THink on this.
If I did not claim 'Intellectual property rights' and the whole thing belonged to Lucas Films do you think ANYONE would be making unlicenced copies.

This means that the rights of this jacket design is all and completely in your hands? This is a good news, I think.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:17 am**

I wouldn't say the jacket rights are completely in any one person's hands, but that the mixed ownership allowed for the jacket to be available to the public as it has been.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:37 am**

PETER wrote: Either way the price is ridiculous.
It is no longer a case of what can the fans afford but how much can I get away with. Just my opinion.
Peter

One word...Belstaff

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:38 am**

binkmeisterRick wrote:I wouldn't say the jacket rights are completely in any one person's hands, but that the mixed ownership allowed for the jacket to be available to the public as it has been.

A very strange situation...

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:02 am**

Michaelson said this yesterday, but it bears repeating:

Michaelson wrote:From what I've been told for years, yes. That's why it's been such a 'sticky wicket' regarding licensing and the like.

I'm sure you've already done so, but if not, read the ROTLA jacket history on the main page. It's been the ROTLA jacket and that jacket alone that has shared ownership, and Peter does indeed hold IP rights on the design, but not SOLE rights. That's been his 'ace in the hole', and smart move on his part 'back in the day'. ;-)

If you'll do some reading, George Lucas has since held complete iron clad rights to all his work ever since his films went global, but was pretty lax in his contract work at the beginning.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:43 am**

binkmeisterRick wrote:I wouldn't say the jacket rights are completely in any one person's hands, but that the mixed ownership allowed for the jacket to be available to the public as it has been.

I don't think US Wings or Todd's etc. have been sued by either Peter or LFL, have they?

There's also "laches" - even if there was something protectable in the jacket "design" itself (which I doubt), if you haven't enforced your ownership of the IP then your case is weakened.

I agree with Chewie Louie.

(of course I am not sure about UK law)

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:16 am**

Well, you'll notice that many vendors refer to it as an Indiana Jones or Indy style jacket. I know US Wings had to change the verbiage on their site regarding how they actually title the jackets.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:56 pm**

citRon wrote:
PETER wrote: Either way the price is ridiculous.
It is no longer a case of what can the fans afford but how much can I get away with. Just my opinion.
Peter
One word...Belstaff

The Belstaff "Indy" jacket's one of the finest garments I've ever had the pleasure of wearing. The pricing of the "Indy" is more or less in-line with all their other offerings. They've had to build-in licensing costs, etc. In terms of quality, I can't fault it.

No one has to buy a Belstaff. I love my Westeds but the Belstaff has a special place in my wardrobe too. It's all about supply and demand.

I have no problems with TN offering a high end option. It brings something new to the mix.

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:05 pm**

binkmeisterRick wrote:I wouldn't say the jacket rights are completely in any one person's hands, but that the mixed ownership allowed for the jacket to be available to the public as it has been.

and this certainly illustrates that, from the original concept on

http://indygear.com/igjacket-RotLA.html

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:43 pm**

RCSignals wrote:
moviematt1989 wrote:
RCSignals wrote:Sure, but not necessarily any single 30's serial.
There are many similar characters and stories.
Point being?...They have different wardrobe? Sure, defiantly, they are different characters.

I'm simply saying that Lucas didn't dream up the costume, he's never claimed too. He actually gave a serial poster to the conceptual artist for Indy's conception. If you want to go even further, they then took those designs to Wardrobe, then Peter w/others to interpret those designs to life, It's all collaborated, that's film. The directors job is get those performances out of his crew, not take credit for them.

Best,

Matt
Well hopefully not defiantly ;-)

IJ may be an amalgam of different 30's serial characters or loosely based upon them, but he is still a creation of SS and Lucas.
A vision and concept starts it off and it's developed from there, with many hands participating, as you point out. It's still a LFL development.

Absolutly true.

Club Obi Wan

TONY NOWAK IS REPLICATING AN ORIGINAL RAIDERS JACKET!!