Club Obi Wan

St. Dumas wrote:

RCSignals wrote:I have no doubt someone else can make an 'original' jacket.

There's always only one original jacket-maker. Wearing a jacket made by the same tailor/shop who made the film-used jacket carries a lot of weight with a lot of people.

SD

And with others, like me, who made the film jacket is almost irrelevant. What we want is a jacket that looks right and is well made for real life. The film jacket is an inspiriation, not a religion. That being said, I'm not after yet another Indy no matter how good it is. If I were buying one for the first time it might be a different story... ;-)

Mike wrote:

RCSignals wrote:Where does 888 come from?

From Tony.

You can see where I quoted him on page 3 of this thread.

Thank you. I missed the post before. It's actually on p.2 now

I see now the 888 will be for this Raiders jacket, not an increase of teh KOTCS jacket.

LIKE 777 IS THE LIMITED INDY 4 PRODUCTION IT WILL BE 888 FOR THE M O S T W A N T E D ONE .

sebas wrote: Honestly, regarding this would-be TN development, I have zero excitement. I mean, do we really need -yet another- take on the Raiders jacket? Peter Botwright made the original. He's still around, making that jacket (in all sorts of varieties to boot). Why someone would think that a "cover version" of that could beat the original, made by the original maker, is beyond me.

I agree. ;-)

as they say, 'variety is the spice of life'.

sebas wrote: Why someone would think that a "cover version" of that could beat the original, made by the original maker, is beyond me.

To pick up on the analogy - cover version - aah, there is never anything quite like the original version of your favorite song. So often the cover version doesn't even come close - a pale imitation of the original. Every now and then though an artist will do a cover version of a song that they really connect with and it will blow you away when you hear it. They breathe a new and magical life into an older classic. It takes a special artist to make that connection.

After the time that I have spent dealing with Tony I can tell you he is definitely such an artist. He truly sees and understands the spirit of the Indiana Jones jacket. Although we didn't discuss the "Raiders" jacket as a topic in and of itself, when it came to getting the fit right for my TN CS jacket he contrasted some of the differences between the different jackets and would remind me that if I was looking for the CS jacket we would have to do <this> but if I wanted to deviate a little and go for a less roomy fit (unspoken - into original trilogy territory - I was starting off with my Wested for measurement purposes) then we would have to do <that>. What I discovered was that I was subconsciously trying to recreate the Raiders jacket I already had which he said he would do if I wanted to (fit-wise that is) when I really wanted a CS jacket. He gave a lot of great advice and pointed out a lot of the fit differences. He just totally understands the jacket!

Here are some of the key differences between Tony (of whom I have so much respect for I would continually call him "sir" and kept getting corrected, "It's just Tony!") and most of the other vendors out there.

1) The jacket is made right there in his shop. It is not outsourced to India or some other factory somewhere in the world. You have personally made a request to Tony for a jacket - you might as well be "The Don" because "it'll be taken care of". By the man himself.

2) He WANTS you to have the jacket they way you want it. He will spend as long as it takes to make sure you get everything right. He'll even send you the "loaner" blue jacket to try on for sizing. (or at least he has done this for the CS jackets apparently) I really wanted to hop on a plane from CT just to have him size me up but as I am not rich.... He was more than willing to spend as much time as necessary with as many follow-ups as necessary to get it right. Many calls and emails of pics back and forth until I was comfortable later, he nailed it!

3) When you are communicating with him, you are the only person that matters - no matter how long it takes. I would not pretend to know how much his volume of work actually is from day to day but I would imagine it's quite a lot. I never felt rushed or like I was inconveniencing him. You almost think to yourself, "How can he spend this much time with me when he has so much work to do!" In fairness to other vendors - most of the ones I have dealt with are also excellent communicators but the experience with Tony I had was so positive I had to mention this. Once you talk to him you understand.

4) The stitching and craftsmanship of his jackets is unparalleled. Again, you have to see it to understand.

I am one of those that would LOVE to get the new Raiders TN - 110% - but I think my wife would kill me - or maybe just maim me - after getting the go ahead to get the CS TN I'm afraid to ask her and with the uncertainty of certain finances I may have to let this one pass though if they're still around down the road I may try to get it if things stabilize. I'd definitely hock some of my other stuff to get the Raiders TN if I didn't have the CS TN though!

I don't think too many people refuse to buy a Raiders hat made by Steve Delk because he's not Richard Swales.

Jack

In continuing the same analogy of 'cover song', I've heard some REALLY good originals that were redone, and it was the 're-do' that became the classic, NOT the original.

Example? 'Barbara Ann'. Everyone remembers the Beach Boy version, and the party version in particular.

It was a cover song, and NO one remembers the original version.

So, sometimes it's sacrilage, agreed (once the Righeous Brothers recorded 'Unchained Melody', they should have thrown away the music, as it would never be done better), but a lot of times it's the cover version that becomes the preferred version.

Never say never.

Regards! Michaelson

I think it was The Regents who first recorded "Barbara Anne." Their version was adequate, but does sound uninspired after you've heard The Beach Boy's version. And of course, Sinatra was probably the greatest of all cover artists.

There are a few great songs though, that are so definitive they are rarely if ever covered. Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone," for instance is another definitive original version I can add to Michaelson's example. A whole thread probably could be devoted to this topic. Anyway, back to topic. ;-)

Jack

There are a few great songs though, that are so definitive they are rarely if ever covered. Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone," for instance is another definitive original version I can add to Michaelson's example. A whole thread probably could be devoted to this topic. Anyway, back to topic.

Don't forget the Rolling Stones version of that. I think it's greater.

Back to topic.

I want a Raiders jacket made by Steve Delk.

PLATON wrote: Back to topic.

I want a Raiders jacket made by Steve Delk.

Regards, Geert

I think Steve Lawrence did a cover version of "Like A Rolling Atone," but I've never heard it. If it's better than Dylan's, though, I'll EAT a Raiders jacket made by Steve Delk.

Jack

I'd join you.

Regards! Michaelson

ummm HELLO people

How about Jimi Hendrix playing "Like a Rolling Stone" at the Monterey Pop festival in 1967 and then lighting his guitar on fire? Best version EVER.

(Also the Beatles' "Twist and SHout" beats the original)

Sorry to continue the off topic tangent but I couldn't resist.....



(what about All Along the Watchtower by Jimi???)

There are plenty of covers better than the originals....

indyrocks wrote:
There are plenty of covers better than the originals....

And that's exactly why I can't wait to see pics of this jacket

Regards, Geert

I havejust one more thing to add on this "cover version" subject, , and then hopefully we can get back to Tony.

I think Dyaln topped his own version of "Like A Rolling Stone" in his 1966 Manchester, England concert with The Band, who were then known as The Hawks. This is one of the greatest live rock concerts ever recorded and is available as part of Dylan's "Bootleg Series."

Sorry about the digression. I guess there's a lot of music lovers here. ;-)

Jack

He has possession of an original Raiders jacket. I am sworn to secrecy on many points, but suffice it to say it is one that is well worth copying. I've worked with a few jacket makers over the years. If I were to pick one to trust to reproduce an icon, it would be Tony Nowak. His excitement, energy, and dedication to the fan has recharged my batteries...for the time being...

That's the thing. Replicating the Raiders jacket, with one in hand, as the Rosetta Stone has its perks. To date, we have Raider jackets replicated from photos, unless I am behind the curve here. Everyone knows how distorted photos can be, and at times misleading. But to actually have a Raiders jacket, that was copied from an original...........in hand......has to be the ultimate Raiders jacket, IMO.

I am so pyched over this, that I will gladly sell one of my guitars just in order to finally own one. But I have always been a Raiders man all the way.

The hat they picked for the new film was ok. But I will take the Raiders fedora any day of the week. My jacket from Tony is great, but it is not a Raiders jacket in cut or leather, or drape.

Off topic a bit, but when I was giving Tony my specs for the CS jacket, and was measuring a Wested that fits me well, he was surprised at the measurment I gave him for the length of the storm flap over the zipper. He said Harrison's was 22 1/2!!! I am not much taller than Harrison, and mine was like, 25 inches, if I recall it correctly. A 22 1/2 inch front length seems really short for the CS jacket. Wonder if he was talking about the Raiders jacket and not the CS? It would make more sense for the shorter Raiders jacket........Fedora

Fedora wrote: Wonder if he was talking about the Raiders jacket and not the CS? It would make more sense for the shorter Raiders jacket........Fedora

No he was talking about CS. Some weeks ago TN published on his website the original specs of the HF CS jacket, and the storm flap was 22,50. ;-)

From what I have read (and of course, that's not always reliable) Wested lost the original pattern, although someone recently posted that Peter is now denying this. The older Wested jackets I owned were not very accurate, though.

The G&B and the Todd's were developed from the measurements of a screen-used stunt jacket. But neither of those companies actually had an original jacket in their hands, as Tony now does.

Jack

Bingo.

…as will be explained in the LC jacket write-up.

eazybox wrote:From what I have read (and of course, that's not always reliable) Wested lost the original pattern, although someone recently posted that Peter is now denying this. The older Wested jackets I owned were not very accurate, though.

The G&B and the Todd's were developed from the measurements of a screen-used stunt jacket. But neither of those companies actually had an original jacket in their hands, as Tony now does.

Jack

From everything I've read here, that makes perfect sense.

I've said before I'm not convinced the maker of the original movie jacket had the original patterns, or an original jacket to follow, when he started to produce jackets for fans how many years after the movie. The jacket made by the original maker today has gone through many changes and tweaks. This would not have been necessary if the original patterns were at hand.

Largely do to the efforts of the Pioneering Fans here to see these details preserved, makers of clothing items from the most recent movie are aware. Hats and jackets from CS can be and are being made immediately after the movie from original patterns to original specs with details fresh in mind.

In the case of the Raiders jacket, it is entirely possible for an 'other than the original maker' individual to create an accurate 'original' Raiders jacket.

Mike wrote:Bingo.

…as will be explained in the LC jacket write-up.

When??

Soon.

Text is being finalized then I have to layout and make it look purty.

I have said this for years and now FINALLY others are starting to get the picture. WHY does the "original" maker of the raiders jacket have to get specs from us??? Thats nonsence......You'd think the maker of such a historic piece of film clothing would hold on to something like that

Back when Peter made the jacket for the film I doubt he considered it historic, It was another job for a film. It wasnt until years later that the Indy jackets became such a big thing, especially when this crowd came about. Stuff happens, patterns can get misplaced. But I think Peter has done a great job on his jackets. Like its been said countless times lets wait and hear from Big Tony about the details of this project.

Indiana Williams wrote:Back when Peter made the jacket for the film I doubt he considered it historic, It was another job for a film. It wasnt until years later that the Indy jackets became such a big thing, especially when this crowd came about. Stuff happens, patterns can get misplaced.

You're very right IW, well said! ;-)

Indiana Strones wrote:

Indiana Williams wrote:Back when Peter made the jacket for the film I doubt he considered it historic, It was another job for a film. It wasnt until years later that the Indy jackets became such a big thing, especially when this crowd came about. Stuff happens, patterns can get misplaced.

You're very right IW, well said! ;-)

Thank you, Strones. when I had visited Tony a couple months back thats how he described his attitude towards the Indy IV job. So Im assuming thats what Peters reaction would have been, especially in the early 80's when it wasnt a million dollar franchise yet. ;-)

Indiana Williams wrote:Back when Peter made the jacket for the film I doubt he considered it historic, It was another job for a film. It wasnt until years later that the Indy jackets became such a big thing, especially when this crowd came about. Stuff happens, patterns can get misplaced. But I think Peter has done a great job on his jackets. Like its been said countless times lets wait and hear from Big Tony about the details of this project.

No doubt. There is no arguing that Peter and Wested have been accommodating and willing to develop the product to what it is today.
It's still a wonder that original patterns do not seem to have been archived.

The movie makers can't be trusted to do this, they may license products but don't care anything about accuracy of those products after the movie is made, at least until the next sequel and then they scramble.

As I indicated earlier, it is because of the early efforts of the 'Pioneer' Fans that these things are now being produced from the new movie while still 'fresh', and it's unlikely patterns and methods will be simply set aside.

I find the whole thing a bit out of date. Why all of a sudden NOW is there an original Raiders jacket? Two even ! I thought all of them where destroyed?


And on another note, I don't see much buzz about this: to give an example Agent 5 who is a really big raiders fan I I R C, I saw him post he will not get one!

I think the big prize is a major factor, plus Also I think alot of people want to see if it really IS a raiders jacket and not a LC or Temple.

Well obviously the production and subsequent success of the new film has opened doors to the Indy archives that were previously closed. It's also refueled the interests in things Indy past and present.

I may not have the deep pockets to order one but, I can't wait to see how the TN Raiders turns out.

actually when you think about it,this is an very easy subject.

you like it,you got the money,why not get one.

you dont like it.you dont want to spend that amount,then dont.


I am VERY curious myself to see how this turns out,and maby I will get one? who knows? I am open for everyone and everything,the more vendors the better!


I think we all should give Tony the chance to come with his raiders jacket and then we will see how many people will say no to it ;-)


Just my 2c

I just think it's funny how before Tony released his KotCS jacket, almost everyone began trashing it for being overpriced, for being not an 'original' (due to it being a copy of a copy, not being part of the original trilogy, etc). After the first batch of jackets were sent, people began raving about them, and placing him beside (or above) Wested!

I wonder if we'll see history repeat itself! ;-)

eazybox wrote:I don't think too many people refuse to buy a Raiders hat made by Steve Delk because he's not Richard Swales.

Jack

That analogy doesn't hold water for me and is beside the point I was trying to make earlier.

Not to detract from Steve and AB, but if Richard Swales was indeed still around, and -more to the point- still selling that very same 1980 "australian model" HJ used in Raiders, the vast majority of us gearheads would go for that one. I'd say that's a no-brainer.

Not quite a 'no-brainer' as in a perfect world you'd be right....but in the REAL world, Richard Swales wanted little to do with us, OR this hobby, and was hard pressed to produce anything we wanted. HJ pretty much considered us a bunch of 'nuts', and Swales was always AC/DC when it came to selling items to member of the Indy community. THAT'S why you had folks like Steve Delk (to name one) get in the business in the first place....we couldn't get the real guys to work with us, so we had to go do it ourselves!

Just wanted to toss that in there from a fellow who had dealings with Swales 'back in the day'. ;-)

Now, back to our regular progamming, already in progress....

Regards! Michaelson

Here's some "out-loud" thinking:

I don't own anything beyond an off the rack jacket. For those wholley obsessed with the idea of having the perfect Raiders jacket, I submit this: The details of the original are likely secondary to the fit of the jacket, in terms of the look. Assuming Mr. Nowak builds these things from the ground up for each customer, the accuracy of the look is likely to fall into the hands of the individual.
I should think the depth of the pleats being 1/8 inch off or the addition of gussets, etc... would have considerably less bearing than simply having the correct fit for "you". Yes, there are cosmetic considerations - pocket size, seam placement, flap shape, et al - but there is some serious nerdy math business to take into account.
The jacket posts are rife with questions like "...what do you think of the sleeve length", "...the overall length?", "...closness of the fit?" and so on. My problem, within my monetary confines, is that I'm long waisted. I will NEVER find an off the rack jacket that looks screen accurate, no matter the pattern source. Period. I suspect there will be a great deal of hemming and hawing after these things come out that such-and-such a detail is off, when actually the fault lies in the buyer due to inaccurate measurements, etc...
One has to take into consideration not only the measurements stated, but how the jacket looks on Indiana Jones, and why it looks like that. Not just to add sleeve length because the sleeves come to a certain point past the wrist, but why they rest at that point. Is it because you actually need more material across the shoulders or back, and that causes the sleeves to rest where they do? Not just to add length to compensate for a long waist, but where to add the material ( the shoulders, the "main body"...). I think I'm making sense here . Not just the measurements, but the proportions of your body that cause you to arrive at those measurements, if you're looking for a highly SA jacket.
Having read about his products, Mr. Nowak's jackets will clearly be practical, quality items. With an original jacket to pattern after, the details ought to be very accurate. Ultimately, though, the accuracy lies within who is ordering the jacket, not the manufacturer.

Also, Jimi Hendrix' cover of All Along the Watchtower was so well liked by Dylan that Bob never played the original version again - in essence, he covered a cover of his own song from that point on.

Also, Jimi Hendrix' cover of All Along the Watchtower was so well liked by Dylan that Bob never played the original version again - in essence, he covered a cover of his own song from that point on.

Great point. I saw Dylan 2 years ago and he prefaced that song with "Hendrix taught me how to play this one...."

Covers can be better.

indyrocks wrote:

Also, Jimi Hendrix' cover of All Along the Watchtower was so well liked by Dylan that Bob never played the original version again - in essence, he covered a cover of his own song from that point on.

Great point. I saw Dylan 2 years ago and he prefaced that song with "Hendrix taught me how to play this one...."

Covers can be better.

I agree with Bob, as though he cares. The only quarrel I have with the Hendrix version is that you can't hear the words as well, but the music and overall feel are fantastic.

Jack

kiltie wrote:Here's some "out-loud" thinking:

I don't own anything beyond an off the rack jacket. For those wholley obsessed with the idea of having the perfect Raiders jacket, I submit this: The details of the original are likely secondary to the fit of the jacket, in terms of the look. Assuming Mr. Nowak builds these things from the ground up for each customer, the accuracy of the look is likely to fall into the hands of the individual.
I should think the depth of the pleats being 1/8 inch off or the addition of gussets, etc... would have considerably less bearing than simply having the correct fit for "you". Yes, there are cosmetic considerations - pocket size, seam placement, flap shape, et al - but there is some serious nerdy math business to take into account.
The jacket posts are rife with questions like "...what do you think of the sleeve length", "...the overall length?", "...closness of the fit?" and so on. My problem, within my monetary confines, is that I'm long waisted. I will NEVER find an off the rack jacket that looks screen accurate, no matter the pattern source. Period. I suspect there will be a great deal of hemming and hawing after these things come out that such-and-such a detail is off, when actually the fault lies in the buyer due to inaccurate measurements, etc...
One has to take into consideration not only the measurements stated, but how the jacket looks on Indiana Jones, and why it looks like that. Not just to add sleeve length because the sleeves come to a certain point past the wrist, but why they rest at that point. Is it because you actually need more material across the shoulders or back, and that causes the sleeves to rest where they do? Not just to add length to compensate for a long waist, but where to add the material ( the shoulders, the "main body"...). I think I'm making sense here . Not just the measurements, but the proportions of your body that cause you to arrive at those measurements, if you're looking for a highly SA jacket.
Having read about his products, Mr. Nowak's jackets will clearly be practical, quality items. With an original jacket to pattern after, the details ought to be very accurate. Ultimately, though, the accuracy lies within who is ordering the jacket, not the manufacturer.

Also, Jimi Hendrix' cover of All Along the Watchtower was so well liked by Dylan that Bob never played the original version again - in essence, he covered a cover of his own song from that point on.

I think this question of fit has been said many times before. However I would imagine that even an off the rack IJ jacket would look right on Harrison Ford. I wonder if anyone has a photo of him in his G&B Expedition? ;-)

There was one a LONG time ago of him climbing into his helicopter wearing it...

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Not quite a 'no-brainer' as in a perfect world you'd be right....but in the REAL world, Richard Swales wanted little to do with us, OR this hobby, and was hard pressed to produce anything we wanted. HJ pretty much considered us a bunch of 'nuts', and Swales was always AC/DC when it came to selling items to member of the Indy community. THAT'S why you had folks like Steve Delk (to name one) get in the business in the first place....we couldn't get the real guys to work with us, so we had to go do it ourselves!

Just wanted to toss that in there from a fellow who had dealings with Swales 'back in the day'. ;-)

Now, back to our regular progamming, already in progress....

Regards! Michaelson

Of course, Michaelson -I was speaking strictly in theoretical terms. I've read all about Swale's demeanor and such (but what do you expect? It is Saville Row, afterall. They were probably peeved about even having the Beatles on their block). Also the fact that a later HJ vintage was far removed from that mythical "Australian model" circa 1980. As you point out, and as I did in my earlier, thank God for AB (and your guys collaboration with Akubra) because otherwise "that hat" could've never been acheived.

Have a better one,
Sebas

all right....enuff's enuff....mr. nowak, you need to quit that other hollywood gig cuz we're all getting antzy!!!! (just kidding )

we (well, actually me) would love to get the details on this cuz i've already reach'n for my cheque book. details please!!!!!

if you don't give us details soon, i'm gonna have to burn all of castor's jackets (come on castor....you don't expect me to burn my own in this protest do ya????).

i think i set a record between the time kryptonian started the original CS thread to when i fired off my order. just want to see if i can top that

I for one am looking forward to reading about how in the world Mr. Nowak was able to not only look at and view, not to just take pictures of, but to actually inspect, handle and directly measure from an actual hero jacket worn by Harrison Ford in Raiders.

From the outside looking in, things just don't make sense. Hopefully, when things get explained, it will. As for now, I can't help but to have my doubts, as I am sure those currently in the know would have some reservations as well if they were not privy to some inside info.

Todd's custom just oozes Raiders. To top it would be something. I wear a size 40R, same size jacket Tony apparntly has in his possession. Hard to believe that I could actually own an exact replica of....oh, this is crazy.

I look forward to "the rest of the story".......soon.

junior

We could speculate that people were so impressed with his jacket for Indy IV that they decided to let him replicate the Raider's Hero jacket as well.

Who knows. At this point I see no reason to doubt it.

RCSignals wrote:We could speculate that people were so impressed with his jacket for Indy IV that they decided to let him replicate the Raider's Hero jacket as well.

Who knows. At this point I see no reason to doubt it.

I agree, I bet thats how it went down as far as him getting the jacket.

Does anybody else think it's funny that we have the maker of the Raiders jackets making a copy of a screen used ToD jacket, and the maker of the Crystal Skull jackets making a copy of a screen used Raiders jacket?

Next the makers of the ToD jacket will come out and try and do a LC one!!!

Shane

Thanks _. Looking forward to the details.

"That's how he got the gig" - I guess that means that either a) someone in the IJ universe wanted the Raiders jacket to be duplicated and made available to the upper class (haha), or b) someone who somehow attained a hero jacket was willing to do the same thing.

Either way, can't wait to learn about it.

junior

I think he meant the CS gig.

SD

RCSignals wrote:
Where does 888 come from?

It's the sign of the leather beast.

Nice to see you back, _.

Yeah, I think I read it wrong. Oh well.

_ wrote:

St. Dumas wrote:I think he meant the CS gig.

SD

Correct...

LOL! Nobody but us chickens out here give a lick about any of this...

well......its a cheaper hobby than golf at least