Club Obi Wan

indyrocks wrote:

ReturningSon wrote:Just curious, but has someone asked Tony if he could use his CS leather to make his Raider's I jacket? That would be interesting and that might cut down on the price as well....

Good question....I think he said in his email to Chris he can use any leather the customer wants. I wonder what kind of price changes we'd see?

Maybe someone should call Tony about this. Perhaps a dark brown lambskin similiar to Wested's.....

I feel alot of us want this jacket, it is just that hide that is stopping us...

this pic of my jacket happened to catch the light and grain the best so far.......it seems close.......... Hatch....

Setting aside my Friendship with Tony, for $900 is better be #### near perfect...

Hatch,
Give us some idea of the fit/feel of the jacket.......does it 'feel Raders?'

Is it breaking in and how does it look like it might distress down the road?



Thanks

ReturningSon wrote:Setting aside my Friendship with Tony, for $900 is better be #### near perfect...

I AGREE, I still believe this reptilian style hide is way off, it does not behave like other lambskin jackets.... Surely theres another pricey lambskin availleble for these jackets?

Even if the hero jacket looked like this.
It does not look like it thus making it non screen accurate. Although it might be 1:1 But I don't believe that is the case, so far i've seen couple of areas but mostly a pretty smooth( yet heavily distressed) jacket.

ReturningSon wrote:Setting aside my Friendship with Tony, for $900 is better be #### near perfect...

I don't care if it IS perfect. For that price, I could get 2 G & B's, 2 - 3 Wings jackets (depending on style), or 3 Westeds with some left over. It seems like a silly price point to me, especially since I don't really understand how what Tony did is any different than what G&B did when developing the expedition.

The old adage of "Don't give them what they ask for, give them what they want!" holds true here. Tony thought we wanted a replica of the original jacket not knowing that what we actually wanted was a copy of a jacket we saw 27 years ago on screen. Think carefully, there is a huge difference between those two statements. Tony will make you any jacket you want. If it's the leather that is important to you, find a swatch or a sample of the leather you want him to use. I don't believe that there will be any break in price as he will have to source your leather. His time is, after all, worth something. All in all, Tony wants your jacket to be worth it to you. That's what drives him.

-P-

Looks like the last beef jerky I ate.

Sorry to hear about the customs holdup, G... But look at it this way: the game is still on!

Prescott wrote:The old adage of "Don't give them what they ask for, give them what they want!" holds true here. Tony thought we wanted a replica of the original jacket not knowing that what we actually wanted was a copy of a jacket we saw 27 years ago on screen. Think carefully, there is a huge difference between those two statements. Tony will make you any jacket you want. If it's the leather that is important to you, find a swatch or a sample of the leather you want him to use. I don't believe that there will be any break in price as he will have to source your leather. His time is, after all, worth something. All in all, Tony wants your jacket to be worth it to you. That's what drives him.

-P-

I don't buy that. I think TN"s understanding of leather is better than that and he thought he was reproducing what that leather was like 27 years ago.

I think TN just chose a leather some of us don't like. I do like it as it happens, but not the jacket itself... As someone else said, why not just get a brillaintly made G&B at half the cost? But for those who want a TN and want to pay that amount, go for it. The more vendors the better. And I enjoy looking at them, if nothing else.

_ wrote

Oh - I have a pretty strong indication that the LC is made of cowhide.

I 've been yelling that since my day 1 in this forum. Then I got slaped around and told that it looked this way due to the whale oil fat (whatever) that it was treated with. _ my friend, please find out if it's cow. It will be the answer to one more of the mysteries around here.

My comment on the leather TN has chosen is that I will buy his jacket if anyone shows me a photo from the film where the leather of the jacket looks like his. Otherwise, I suggest he changes the leather to a normal lambskin and bring down his price by 50%.

Now about the stories that the original film jacket has dried out blah blah blah, sorry I can't believe that. You are telling me that jackets that cost $80K, $12K or $5K were left to dry out like this? I am sure many of you have leather jackets in their closets that date from the 1960's or earlier and without any special treatment or being worn, they re still in great shape.

I know cause I have some.

OK everyone - fire up your DVD players!
Tony sent me an email last night which identifies the jacket he copied. Here's his message:

HELLO CHRIS ! THE BEST WAY YET TO SEE THE TEXTURE AND THE JACKET WE WORKED WITH PLEASE LOOK AT THE MINUTE 3 .23 SECONDS . THAT 23 RD SECOND HAS IT ALL ., BUT AS YOU KNOW THERE IS MANY DIFFERENT JACKETS BEING USED IN THAT MOVIE . BEST REGARDS AGAIN TONY NOWAK .

I emailed Tony yesterday as well and he gave me the same response: to check out the film at 3:23.

For all you folks going on about the leather and the price, I asked Tony another question: Can the customer pick the leather choice? The was of course YES, he can use a different leather to bring the cost down. SO that's that.

indyrocks wrote:I emailed Tony yesterday as well and he gave me the same response: to check out the film at 3:23.

For all you folks going on about the leather and the price, I asked Tony another question: Can the customer pick the leather choice? The was of course YES, he can use a different leather to bring the cost down. SO that's that.

so its the leather that is a big part of the price.hmmm.. interesting

PLATON wrote:_ wrote

Oh - I have a pretty strong indication that the LC is made of cowhide.

I 've been yelling that since my day 1 in this forum. Then I got slaped around and told that it looked this way due to the whale oil fat (whatever) that it was treated with.

PLATON, I said that back at Indyfan in the mid '90s' and got the same response. Stop feeling like the Lone Ranger.

Regard! Michaelson

Yep....

Regards! Michaelson

Someone pls post a screen grab of 3:23

cj610 wrote:Hatch,
Give us some idea of the fit/feel of the jacket.......does it 'feel Raders?'

Is it breaking in and how does it look like it might distress down the road?



Thanks

As anyone who has had a CS can attest his fits have been spot on, feels like a custom fit when you slip it on....no binding shoulders etc...gussets work well when lifting arms......no bat wing effect..... drapes well and conforms to body,easy entry handwarmer pockets.....breaking in nicely...feels light but tough about 1/2 weight od CS .....feels ready for adventure....if you could get a palm reader to read the grain of this leather,feels like the whole " Indy chronicles " would be in there.....again pictures don't do it justice,.....

As the maker of the original jacket let say again without offending TN that the leather used in the raiders film came from Turn Leather, Todmorden
it was sheeps leather with all the growth and stretch marks left in on a plain natural finish leather. The TN leather is a leather with a Buffalo print stamped on it which is why it is over all the skin in a regular pattern and looks synthetic. Although I am not suggesting the TN skin was cheap, this system is usually used to hide blemishes.
I have much the same in Buffalo and Crocodile print although there is not much call for it.
This is fact and not a critism.

OK, so Peter is now saying there was some grain to the leather now. Things may be starting to converge here.

Now, I have no stake in this claim either way aside from trying to get to the truth of the matter. In speaking with Tony last night, he stated "I know what I had and I know what I saw. This is it." Though _ has stated the source, Tony has still maintained "I'm sorry that I can't tell what I had."

He had me looking through the scenes mentioned above as well as pics from the "Making of" book. Unfortunately, scanning from print caused some dot gain, but I tried to clean up as best I could. I can see grain on and around the pockets here:



I also took another scan from a photo where there is grain in the folds, particularly under the collar:



And to back up what others have reported, Tony did say he could use another leather if requested and would work on the price based on it, but also added "I don't know what they'd want."

Also replied to me via email regarding the time stamp on the movie. I tried to figure a screen grab, but there was a lot of motion. I'll work on what I can, but may also source other Elstree-era scenes.

TAKE A LOOK AT THE INDYS FIRST JACKET IN THE MOVIE MINUTE 3.23 SECONDS . THAT 23 SECOND HAS IT ALL . AS YOU KNOW THERE IS MANY DIFFERENT JACKETS BEING USED IN THAT MOVIE . BUT THATS THE ONE , THE VERY FIRST INDY JACKET .

Mike

I wish Tony could find the time to come to COW and post and possibly set the record straight.

3.23 proves nothing, It only shows the collar with texture of grain.

again only small areas, in the later shot where he's filling the sandbag you can also see some texture on the front of the jacket near the pocket but the sleeves are again smooth. some areas did have alot of grain but not the entire jacket nothing like the pictures of the tn jackets so far.


THIS Is at 3.24 ( 3.23 is where he's moving out of the darkness

Not saying for nothing, but a textured body and smooth sleeves, would…IMO…look like a letterman's jacket.

The more bits and pieces seen…and with Peter now stating there was texture…I'm even more inclined to believe the jacket was textured. I'm more under the impression that it has more to do with the photos taken so far of the jackets sold so far and am looking forward to seeing one in person after the QM. Hopefully I'll be able to get some shots and in-person opinions of it.

I didn't see anyhting at 3 min 23 sec either, but if you look at chapter 3 when Indy puts Satipo against the wall grabs the torch and bends down to inspect the floor trap about 6 min 47 secs. you can see alot of horizontal grain on the back of that jacket.

Ok _. I have a HUGE trunk on the Plymouth.

Regard! Michaelson

_ wrote:

Kevin Anderson wrote:I wish Tony could find the time to come to COW and post and possibly set the record straight.

I think his NOT posting shows more sense and integrity... JMO...

Actually, he is wanting to come on and say 'hi, I'm here for questions.' but finding time…and quite frankly I think he's a little trepidatious of how it all works. I've promised him I could walk him through the process. Hopefully it will be soon. He's quite aware of the demand.

I'm not saying at all that the jacket is not textured

just that the jacket isn't textured all over like the leather on jackets 1/2/3 Thats all i'm saying

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn28 ... G_3476.jpg

I agree to a point. Look at the photo. Notice where there's a glare in the right panel (left side) next to the zipper and on the stormflap? Also in some folds (left arm near the seam) where it goes into shadow? The grain appears to flatten out or disappear in these areas.



I'd theorize that that may be happening in the photos/film frames. That light and shadow are affecting the way the material appears. Much like the hat ribbon looks "black" in some scenes.

Just a theory.

Mike wrote:I agree to a point. Look at the photo. Notice where there's a glare in the right panel (left side) next to the zipper and on the stormflap? Also in some folds (left arm near the seam) where it goes into shadow? The grain appears to flatten out or disappear in these areas.



I'd theorize that that may be happening in the photos/film frames. That light and shadow are affecting the way the material appears. Much like the hat ribbon looks "black" in some scenes.

Just a theory.

true but there are shots where there is only a little grain and smooth, I still believe its not this grainy, But tony said he's offering other leather too.

I wonder if he could somehow get some pics of samples on here.

Mike wrote:The more bits and pieces seen…and with Peter now stating there was texture…

Actually Peter didn't say "texture" he said "sheeps leather with all the growth and stretch marks left in on a plain natural finish leather".

Guys Peter implies that the leather TN used is nothing like what was used in the original jacket. He called the 001/888 a "poor effort".

I quote

Buffalo print stamped on it which is why it is over all the skin in a regular pattern and looks synthetic.

The emphasis is on "it is all over the skin in a regular pattern"

This means the texture in the original wasn't all over the skin.

What more do you need?

I think that sums up my problem with it. I DO see the texture in certain parts of the jacket, but I do also see smooth parts of leather in the same shot where everything is in focus.

I think that's what I like least about the TN jacket - the fact that the obvious "texture" is apparent over MOST of the jacket instead of certain areas. Also, I don't see ANY photos that appear to have "scales" in the surface of the leather like the TN jacket has. I only see wrinkles and pulls in the surface of the real thing.

Chris

Chris_King wrote:I think that sums up my problem with it. I DO see the texture in certain parts of the jacket, but I do also see smooth parts of leather in the same shot where everything is in focus.

I think that's what I like least about the TN jacket - the fact that the obvious "texture" is apparent over MOST of the jacket instead of certain areas. Also, I don't see ANY photos that appear to have "scales" in the surface of the leather like the TN jacket has. I only see wrinkles and pulls in the surface of the real thing.

Chris

Exactly ! Thank you..!

Here's an example of different texturing on the same jacket. Compare pocket flaps.



Nowak has that textured surface all over the jacket which seems to be over-kill. I mean, it's impossible that -at this juncture- it suddenly dawns on us that the Raiders jacket had this 100% croc or buffalo texture to it. This is simply not the case, as the plethora of pictures and film grabs reveal and Peter confirms.

That's an excellent example Sebas. This is what I see when I look at photos of the real jacket - texture heavier in some areas than others.

Maybe the owners of the TN Raiders jackets could confirm if the texture really is "all over" as it appears in pics of their jackets?

Chris

Indiana Williams wrote:viewtopic.php?t=35315

It is not.. see picture of back versus sleeves, front, collar of mine posted above and on pg 15 of this forum,also it's real texture and grain, variable and definitely not embossed or stamped as Peter stated...it's the real deal...again the pics posted don't do it justice would need Spielberg quality pics to come close....Hatch

Hatch wrote:

Indiana Williams wrote:viewtopic.php?t=35315

It is not.. see picture of back versus sleeves, front, collar of mine posted above and on pg 15 of this forum,also it's real texture and grain, variable and definitely not embossed or stamped as Peter stated...it's the real deal...again the pics posted don't do it justice would need Spielberg quality pics to come close....Hatch

I definetly agree I handled raw pieces of the leather and you dont have to be a leather expert to see its real leather. Tony would never use an inferior leather, or plaiting, especially for something like this.

Chris_King wrote:That's an excellent example Sebas. This is what I see when I look at photos of the real jacket - texture heavier in some areas than others.

Maybe the owners of the TN Raiders jackets could confirm if the texture really is "all over" as it appears in pics of their jackets?

Chris

It definitly is not ..... very variable from back to front , shoulders to sleeve , and seam areas to straps etc see pic I posted above and also on pg 15 of this topic....also contrary to what Peter stated NOT stamped or embossed.....it's the real leather variabilty....the pics just don't do it justice....would need Spielberg level pics to come closer to true character ........ Hatch

Indiana Williams wrote:

Hatch wrote:

Indiana Williams wrote:viewtopic.php?t=35315

It is not.. see picture of back versus sleeves, front, collar of mine posted above and on pg 15 of this forum,also it's real texture and grain, variable and definitely not embossed or stamped as Peter stated...it's the real deal...again the pics posted don't do it justice would need Spielberg quality pics to come close....Hatch

I definetly agree I handled raw pieces of the leather and you dont have to be a leather expert to see its real leather. Tony would never use an inferior leather, or plaiting, especially for something like this.

Look guys, I don't think its necessarily a matter of it being inferior leather. It's just the leather apearance not matching the jacket we all know and love. As for the "pictures don't do it justice" rhetoric, well it's all we (99% of us) have to go on. The jacket should look the same as it does on screen and the myriad of photos. And it doesn't.

Not to say that TNs isn't a beautifully crafted jacket. It is. But its texture is off. As I said, this texture issue can't be something that's just "been discovered": We've been scrutinizing this jacket for years. Lastly, Peter Botwright -the guy who made the original jackets- has even confirmed this. If I have to choose, I'm going to take his word over Nowaks.

I agree with _. If you look at Indy hanging off the front of the truck (around 1.27:25) you can see the grain in the leather on the back pretty plainly.

Question for _:

Did the Terry Leonard stunt jacket that you examined have this heavy texture all over the surface?

I'm pretty sure that all the jackets Peter would have made for Order Numbers 1, 2 & 3 would have been made from the same leather?

If the Terry Leonard jacket also displayed this texture all over it, I guess that means TN's decision was the correct one.

However, I must ask - why didn't Flight Suits or Todd Coyle decide to use this textured effect leather?

Chris

sebas wrote: Lastly, Peter Botwright -the guy who made the original jackets- has even confirmed this. If I have to choose, I'm going to take his word over Nowaks.

Well, that said, it begs the question why hasn't Peter made the Wested jacket with this texturing (or as he put it "with all the growth and stretch marks left in on a plain natural finish leather") all this time? Yes, we know the tannery is no longer in existance, but if he has access to the engrained leather, as he stated in his thread, he could have duplicated his actual screen used jacket all these years, but didn't.

If he's known this all this time that the jacket had 'marks', why post this information now? It's been asked in the past, but no response until today, and we've been hammering at this information since Indyfan.com came on line in 1995.

Could it be that he's sidestepped this all these years because he may have found himself in the same shoes that Tony finds himself in today, that being that he could argue until he was blue in the face that the original was, in fact, textured, but folks stating categorically that it 'was not what they saw on the screen', and therefore he HAD to be 'wrong', so why bother tilting that windmill?

Just scratching my head, as usual.

Regards! Michaelson

As I sit here hoping this doesn't start a flame-up (read that as an official warning), Tony asked that his response be posted as is. I can understand his frustration somewhat, so I'm letting it go…but only has he has been a target without retribution.

This is by no means meant to start another slamfest, so lets not go there, but these are his words, so here goes. This is in response to Peter's claim of stamped leather.

WHILE I RESPECT HIS CONTRIBUTIONS TO HIS STORIES THAT JUST CONFIRMS THAT WHEN IT COMES TO LEATHER YOU WOULD THINK HE WOULD LEARN SOMETHING OVER THE YEARS BUT LOOKS LIKE HE DOESNT HAVE THE CAPACITY FOR IT NEVERTHELESS HE IS A OK STORYTELLER WITH AN OK AMOUNT OF LISTENERS .CONGRATULATIONS !!!!
AND THANK YOU FOR ADVERTISING . NOW WHEN IT COMES TO THE LEATHER I AM USING IN MAKING INDYS FIRST JACKET I WOULD LIKE TO CHALLENGE ANYBODY IF THIS IS A STAMPED LEATHER - NO BETS UNDER 100.000 DOLLARS . MONEY IN ESCROW .MIKE BE SO KIND AND POST THIS E-MAIL FOR ALL THE INDY FANS IF NOTHING ELSE IT IS A GOOD EDUCATION . MY VERY BEST REGARDS TONY NIOWAK .ALSO TO SEE THAT LEATHER TEXTURE IN THAT FILM PLEASE WATCH MINUTE 3 . 23 SECOND . THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING .

I don't think Peter has actually "gotten it" to this day. He and Tony are not gearheads, but jacket makers. Their interest in the absolute bottom line of detail is not as clear to them as it is to us. We obsess over the smallest of details where they both want to put out a quality product. In other words, I don't think we're all 100% on the same page.
I think they both pick skins that they feel comfortable with to put out a quality product but don't really look at the still and the film at the level we all do, which is why we're so quick to point out any inaccuracies. I wish Peter would somehow find the same leather source as he used to use back at the beginning of Indygear. I recall him saying that they had closed, though.

Haven't seen this picture in the context of this discussion:



Hmmm....

A TN Raiders jacket with a Fullers/film distressing treatment would really help. I vote for Castor's jacket as the guinea pig!

Mike wrote:Not saying for nothing, but a textured body and smooth sleeves, would…IMO…look like a letterman's jacket.

The more bits and pieces seen…and with Peter now stating there was texture…I'm even more inclined to believe the jacket was textured. I'm more under the impression that it has more to do with the photos taken so far of the jackets sold so far and am looking forward to seeing one in person after the QM. Hopefully I'll be able to get some shots and in-person opinions of it.

Agreed. All the most recent pictures posted from the one that Chris posted that shows texture on the shoulder, it has become very apparent that the jacket was not smooth at all.
Peter also confirming this now should end the argument. The fact it was it was 'sheep' not 'lamb' is interesting too.

Michaelson wrote:
If he's (Peter) known this all this time that the jacket had 'marks', why post this information now? It's been asked in the past, but no response until today, and we've been hammering at this information since Indyfan.com came on line in 1995.

The pic above is of a Wested (late 90s, mind you) and it has marks. So Peter has used this kind of leather previously.

But yes, Michaelson, you bring up some good points here. And yes, we're constantly discovering new things about the jacket. But let's forget Peter for the moment and take Todd as an example. Todd doesn't have the 'Botwright baggage' in terms of having used the original material back in the day. All he's had to go on is what he's seen on screen. He's poured over every aspect of it to make an amazing jacket. Many COW members will swear that he makes the most SA-looking Raiders jacket available. If this is the case, why are his jackets nothing like TN's?

Probably the original leather texture is in the middle, not so smooth, but not so grainy. My 2c.

sebas wrote: If this is the case, why are his jackets nothing like TN's?

Interesting question. Where would things stand if Todd had the hero jacket handed to him to duplicate? Now that this is in the open, will he have to change leather sources to now satisfy the SA folks? In Todd's case, it all conjecture, isn't it? ;-)

Regards! Michaelson