Club Obi Wan

I'll only toss in what I know from telephone discussions with Peter 'back in the day' (vintage 1998).

He considered his jackets to be 'throw away'....something to be worn for a season, tossed or given away, then you ordered another one the next year. He did his costume items the same as he wanted return business.

He referred to his lambskin items as 'summer jacket's.

The idea of creating a jacket or item to outlast 3 generations or a nuclear blast was totally foreign to him back in the mid 90's, even though he was told multiple times what the U.S. market wanted.

It wasn't until the advent and introduction of the FS Expedition (which HAD the characteristics 'we' wanted in the Indy Raiders jacket) that he changed his tune and started making substantial 'mil spec' jackets to meet the international market demand.

From another post (not sure if it was in this thread), that's why he introduced the elastic band in the back to keep the action pleats closed, as it was something FS put in the Expo due to the fact that was what the military spec'd to be in THEIR jackets with action pleats. USWings does the same thing, and both Flight Suits (Gibson and Barnes) and USWings were military contractors at the time.

Keep in mind, Peter had little to no dealings with the 'outside' or hobby before 1996 or so. This fact can be borne out if you go to the old Indyfan archives and scroll through. He first discovered us there. The European vendor practice was 'buy and item, wear it a season, get rid of it end of season, buy another next season.....'

Here in the U.S., we purchased an item and expected it to be the last one we'd ever own.

TOTALLY blew his mind, and he told me so on several occasions by phone.

Anyway, just tossing that old bit of stuff out there from the past.

Regards! Michaelson

I was wondering when you'd chime in old buddy! Thanks for the info about Peter and Wested. That's something I never knew!

Also, Brandon can you tell us what the side strap hardware is on that screen-used jacket?

xmasters wrote:Oh I agree. I don't personally think the jackets were made substandardly. I was just putting forward the idea that general production for movies does not have to always correlate to real life, if one is to make accusations to the materials and craftsmanship of the item as CM was doing.

As you'll see from Michelson's post, I was not making accusations (nice word, by the way)- I was simply reporting what I knew about Wested's pragmatic approach. And yes they weren't made to withstand distressing. Obviously.

Michaelson wrote:I'll only toss in what I know from telephone discussions with Peter 'back in the day' (vintage 1998).

He considered his jackets to be 'throw away'....something to be worn for a season, tossed or given away, then you ordered another one the next year. He did his costume items the same as he wanted return business.

He referred to his lambskin items as 'summer jacket's.

The idea of creating a jacket or item to outlast 3 generations or a nuclear blast was totally foreign to him back in the mid 90's, even though he was told multiple times what the U.S. market wanted.

It wasn't until the advent and introduction of the FS Expedition (which HAD the characteristics 'we' wanted in the Indy Raiders jacket) that he changed his tune and started making substantial 'mil spec' jackets to meet the international market demand.

From another post (not sure if it was in this thread), that's why he introduced the elastic band in the back to keep the action pleats closed, as it was something FS put in the Expo due to the fact that was what the military spec'd to be in THEIR jackets with action pleats. USWings does the same thing, and both Flight Suits (Gibson and Barnes) and USWings were military contractors at the time.

Keep in mind, Peter had little to no dealings with the 'outside' or hobby before 1996 or so. This fact can be borne out if you go to the old Indyfan archives and scroll through. He first discovered us there. The European vendor practice was 'buy and item, wear it a season, get rid of it end of season, buy another next season.....'

Here in the U.S., we purchased an item and expected it to be the last one we'd ever own.

TOTALLY blew his mind, and he told me so on several occasions by phone.

Anyway, just tossing that old bit of stuff out there from the past.

Regards! Michaelson

Interesting M. Having seen early Westeds and photos of the Raiders jacket it seemed fairly clear Peter was never going for heirloom pieces, like Aero Leather, for instance. This was one of the reasons why I went with the G&B jacket which was an Indy jacket but not a costume item. A jacket for life and working. Mine is around 12 years old and in great shape. My Wested LC jacket form the same period had lining and stitching issues within a few years. Nice as it was - and I do like what Wested make.

I’m still wearing a prototype G&B Expo myself. Like I said, we expect them to last for generations.

Regards! M

I'm just delighted to see an actual, screen used, real deal Raiders jacket - and good quality pics too! It's funny that the character of the leather that I've been looking out for seems mostly to be due to tape under soft leather. Love how crusty it loooks now. Wested's shrunken lamb would be good for this look, if you don't prefer the darker, on screen look. Good times - a genuine hat and jacket, who'd have thought it, ten years ago??

Well this morning I was trying to do a side by side of Brandons original (thank you again) jacket and my S&J.
Tried to fuse them together, but alas my poor computer skills are lacking.

So they'll be one on top of the other. Tried taking pictures in the same way, unfourtunatley the only solid color blanket I had was light blue, no black.

I think the similartys are striking and that S&J have captured this version whether it was in different filming times in making the movie is irrelevant to me. I mean they only had so many and each jacket has it own character. I love the version where their behind the barrels just after blowing up the flying wing, showing those ribby's.

Any way here they are.
Croft






And here's some others of my new favorite.

Indiana Croft wrote:Well this morning I was trying to do a side by side of Brandons original (thank you again) jacket and my S&J.
Tried to fuse them together, but alas my poor computer skills are lacking.

So they'll be one on top of the other. Tried taking pictures in the same way, unfourtunatley the only solid color blanket I had was light blue, no black.

I think the similartys are striking and that S&J have captured this version whether it was in different filming times in making the movie is irrelevant to me. I mean they only had so many and each jacket has it own character. I love the version where their behind the barrels just after blowing up the flying wing, showing those ribby's.

Any way here they are.
Croft

Your Truck Chase jacket looks absolutely incredible, Croft. Diego is a true artist. I know firsthand because I received my Steele & Jones Truck Chase Jacket this week. (I'll share some photos and detailed feedback on it soon.) Enjoy your S&J jacket! It's a beaut!

Carolina

Thanks CarolinaIndy

This has to be one time when I wasn’t wearing the accent for pictures.

Croft

Diego,

From here this looks like 1mm +

https://i.imgur.com/0LcPYj4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is it?

Reading above there about Peter's take on his clothing is interesting, because indeed clothing as a one season commodity is a european attitude, in recent decades, but buying items of clothing to last for life is not an alien concept to the United Kingdom, or many UK clotheirs. It's very much the mindset of my parents generation.

With all that said, we still have jackets Peter made for the IJ movies here, the truck jacket and two LC jackets intact that survived a good beating.

Peter's comments aren't all that surprising when you look at the history. In the post-war US, the leather jacket world was dominated by either military A-2/G-1 market thanks to the preponderance of veterans or the Perfecto type motorcycle jacket. Fashion leather wasn't really a thing until the later 60s and 70s, when European designers started using a lot of fashion lambskin in their designs, possibly because the post-war austerity economy had ended, and that got transferred to the US market which was going through its Vietnam hangover and people wanted nothing to do with dad's A-2. Those 70s fashion jackets may have been tailored well but they weren't exactly the most durable. And then the robust mil-spec type jacket didn't really come back into the fore until the mid-80s with Top Gun etc.

So most of the past 70+ years the European civilian market, outside of the racing circuit and cafe racer culture, has been dominated by the fashion leather industry, whereas the US market had more demand for utilitarian jackets among the civilian population first in the 40s and 50s and then again for the past 25-30 years, especially for those of us who were in the military and issued A-2s and G-1s and in the Indy jacket world who want a certain ruggedness from the jacket that you'd never get from a fashion designer or at the mall. Also, and this is totally anecdotal, but I've noticed a cultural difference where the European motoring community embraces synthetics more than the Americans do. Probably thanks in part to America and rodeos and stuff. I would imagine that for the past 40-50 years that outside of the military contract and motorcycle market that making a jacket out of something other than a thin lamb would seem absurd to most of the leather garment industry. Especially to a British guy whose career was centered on costume pieces.

I'm not sure I agree. My family is from Europe and I vividly recall my mum and dad buying leather jackets in the 1970s with the expectation that they were jackets to last 20 years. Part of the joy of leather jackets back then I recall was they would last for many seasons while other cheaper jackets would not.

I think Peter's view was his own, maverick outlook and hardly surprising when you consider he specialized in making costumes for movies which are by definition finite, short-term items.

Some pics of a recent TRUCK jacket replica





Cheers.-

Indiego Jones wrote:Some pics of a recent TRUCK jacket replica





Cheers.-

I believe the buckle is supposed to be like this


Rather than this

Thee wrote: I believe the buckle is supposed to be like this


Rather than this

You can install the buckles like that, to avoid any risk.

But the buckles on the original jackets were not installed like that.
The 2 prongs are pointing outside.

Cheers.-

Fantastic thread and very late to the party here but extra big thanks to the OP for the photos of the original as it is now

Now there's a piece of cinematic history if ever there was one!

Yup, I preferred to point the claw the other way to get a smoother fit and avoid poking the leather, but assumed they went the other way on the film jackets.

Indiego Jones wrote:

Thee wrote: I believe the buckle is supposed to be like this


Rather than this

You can install the buckles like that, to avoid any risk.

But the buckles on the original jackets were not installed like that.
The 2 prongs are pointing outside.

Cheers.-

I assume you are basing that off of this photo of a supposedly screen used raiders jacket.


However if you look at closely at the buckles in the movie they look like they were installed with the prongs going along the strap.

Just cut the prongs off and grind the burrs with a dremel. That's what I did, along with applying a thick black oxide coat.

Now all I need are the cojones to undo the straps on one of my existing Raiders jackets or see if I can mail it to the maker of a new one should I feel the need -- I've been resistant to a lambskin jacket for years, but I'm coming around to the idea.

Illinois_Jones wrote:Just cut the prongs off and grind the burrs with a dremel. That's what I did, along with applying a thick black oxide coat.

Now all I need are the cojones to undo the straps on one of my existing Raiders jackets or see if I can mail it to the maker of a new one should I feel the need -- I've been resistant to a lambskin jacket for years, but I'm coming around to the idea.

Or just do this

Thee wrote:

Indiego Jones wrote: You can install the buckles like that, to avoid any risk.

But the buckles on the original jackets were not installed like that.
The 2 prongs are pointing outside.

Cheers.-

I assume you are basing that off of this photo of a supposedly screen used raiders jacket.


However if you look at closely at the buckles in the movie they look like they were installed with the prongs going along the strap.

Screen-caps can be deceiving.
More than you think.
Also, the jacket on the screen-cap it's the MAIN HERO.
We can't assure or confirm how the buckles were installed on that one.
That jacket is missing.

But we can guide our deductions in the direction of the other surviving jackets.
No logical reason for a different configuration between jackets, that supposed were made to be identical from each other.

The picture you are indicating first IT IS a screen-used RAIDERS jacket. Fact.
Not supposedly...Dr Jones. This is thank to the kindness of STEFAN HILLS, a COW member.
In fact, we (S&J) know exactly what jacket it is, and the scene it was used.

And we (S&J) also know the TRUCK RAIDERS jacket have the buckles with 2-prongs...pointing also outside.


I understand your scepticism.
With all this facts, without too much evidence.
However, in the past years, we never saw a true RAIDERS original jacket.
And now it's pictures are on this very same thread.

In the end, it all comes down to trusting or not, the information that is given to us.

Cheers.-

So many years in this hobby, and now another fascinating thread. So, how much is a S&J Truck Chase jacket?

I forget what I paid, but reach out S&J, Diego will get back to you.
They have yet to update there site.

But if you pull the trigger, you won’t be disappointed.

Croft

afalzon wrote:Diego,

From here this looks like 1mm +

https://i.imgur.com/0LcPYj4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is it?

I would also like to know.

Satipo wrote:So many years in this hobby, and now another fascinating thread. So, how much is a S&J Truck Chase jacket?

I believe they are $555 shipping included.

Hi Thee,

It's not possible to tell leather thickness from a picture.
And our RAIDERS skins are not 1 mm+ thick.
Are thinner.
Also, leather suppleness plays a big part on the overall look.

Cheers.-

Indiego Jones wrote:RAIDERS JACKETS:

This is a deeper analysis we did on some of the jackets we could positive identify:

* TRUCK jacket (mainly seen in Truck chase, from shoot in the arm to "parking" at Omar's)
* HOVITO temple entrance
* MAIN HERO (inside Hovito temple, Raven bar, Well of Souls, Flying wing fight...)
* IMAM's house


All this jackets, we can see in the movie, share the same pattern and leather.
Were cut to be exactly identical to each other.

The leather for every of this jackets is the same.
Lambskin.
Some lamb and sheep breeds have the particular "ribs" marks on the skin surface.
However, this marks were very subtle, among the whole batch.

Now, we are talking about the same leather batch.
Same animal type. Same color. Same thickness. Same tannery process.
BUT, some skins have a more pronounced "ribby" texture than others.
Because no animal is exactly identical to the other (no clone sheeps here...LOL)

For some of the jacket's parts, the skins used had a bit more of "ribbyness" present. There lies the differences we see.
When Peter was making the jackets for RAIDERS, most probably the skins for each one were radomly choosen, among the whole batch.
Also, the construction differences comes from one machinist to another, putting together and assembling the jackets with different techniques.

We've learned this by making the jackets.


Cheers.-

Did Tony examine one of the jackets listed above? Because the leather used on the truck jacket and according to you the jackets above which is essentially smooth lambskin is not even close to what Tony said he had in hands.

I don't think we know anything about the jacket Tony examined. I don't doubt he had a true Raiders jacket, given many of the details he got right, but perhaps the condition of the jacket or his interpretation of what he was seeing influenced his final design and leather choice. I never liked the very grainy, textured leather Tony chose.

Thee wrote:

Indiego Jones wrote:RAIDERS JACKETS:

This is a deeper analysis we did on some of the jackets we could positive identify:

* TRUCK jacket (mainly seen in Truck chase, from shoot in the arm to "parking" at Omar's)
* HOVITO temple entrance
* MAIN HERO (inside Hovito temple, Raven bar, Well of Souls, Flying wing fight...)
* IMAM's house

Did Tony examine one of the jackets listed above? Because the leather used on the truck jacket and according to you the jackets above which is essentially smooth lambskin is not even close to what Tony said he had in hands.

We had no confirmation about what jacket Tony inspected.

Although, there is still a surviving Raiders jacket with a more pronounced grain, on certain areas.
That jacket, most likely, was used for the jumping into the river (Hawaii).
The full soaking tends to emphasize grain on lambskin, because it shrinks the fibers.
So, on a jacket made of Lambskin...you end up with a "Shrunken Lambskin" jacket...

Regards.-

That was always my take on the subject. Not only were there changes due to the production and natural weathering from river, sweat, 100 degree sun, etc, but the texture and measurements of jackets change over time as they dry out. I think Tony reproduced what he saw in person but what he saw wasn’t there when the movie was being filmed.

Indiego Jones wrote:

Thee wrote:

Indiego Jones wrote:RAIDERS JACKETS:

This is a deeper analysis we did on some of the jackets we could positive identify:

* TRUCK jacket (mainly seen in Truck chase, from shoot in the arm to "parking" at Omar's)
* HOVITO temple entrance
* MAIN HERO (inside Hovito temple, Raven bar, Well of Souls, Flying wing fight...)
* IMAM's house

Did Tony examine one of the jackets listed above? Because the leather used on the truck jacket and according to you the jackets above which is essentially smooth lambskin is not even close to what Tony said he had in hands.

We had no confirmation about what jacket Tony inspected.

Although, there is still a surviving Raiders jacket with a more pronounced grain, on certain areas.
That jacket, most likely, was used for the jumping into the river (Hawaii).
The full soaking tends to emphasize grain on lambskin, because it shrinks the fibers.
So, on a jacket made of Lambskin...you end up with a "Shrunken Lambskin" jacket...

Regards.-

I believe you based your original raiders jackets on Tony's pattern with some main hero tweaks, and you seem to currently have the most accurate raiders pattern due to replicating the truck one. How close was Tony's to the truck jacket pattern? Do you think Tony examined one of the raiders jackets that HF actually wore in the film at some point? I don't think it would be that river jump jacket you refer to as the jacket he examined was very grainy across the entire jacket. Tony stating this SL batch matched exactly what he had in hands:

compared to the jock plane jacket:

S&J developed their own pattern, not by imitating Tony’s work. At least one jacket Tony handled was worn by stunt men if I recall. He used a bit of old hide he had leftover from years ago to make my first Nowak and it was nearly identical based on conversations I had with him late at night (as Tony’s calls often were).

Tibor wrote:S&J developed their own pattern, not by imitating Tony’s work. At least one jacket Tony handled was worn by stunt men if I recall. He used a bit of old hide he had leftover from years ago to make my first Nowak and it was nearly identical based on conversations I had with him late at night (as Tony’s calls often were).

Well Diego will have to chime in here but I said what I said based on this post from the old fortune and glory forum
https://imgur.com/qIxSZAU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thee wrote: I believe you based your original raiders jackets on Tony's pattern with some main hero tweaks, and you seem to currently have the most accurate raiders pattern due to replicating the truck one. How close was Tony's to the truck jacket pattern? Do you think Tony examined one of the raiders jackets that HF actually wore in the film at some point? I don't think it would be that river jump jacket you refer to as the jacket he examined was very grainy across the entire jacket. Tony stating this SL batch matched exactly what he had in hands

We based our first RAIDERS versions on Tony's pattern. Not cloning it (no Tony's jacket was disassembled), but studying it.
As you've said, after about the first 15-20 jackets, I did some tweaks to the pattern.
Then, on 2019 we came up with the Raiders TRUCK pattern, which is the most accurate ever offered.

Tony's pattern was very close.
Like 85/90%, it's there.

We definitely believe Tony had a true original Raiders jacket in hand.
He got so many proportions correctly. We can't find it possible, by just seeing the movie.

On the leather, we have to believe what Tony said at the time.
Maybe the jacket he inspected was not the "Jumping to the River", but another one we didn't know about it, yet.
I don't think we will ever have a positive confirmation on this.

Regards.-

Wow, simply amazing - thank you Brandon for taking the time to share your knowledge with the good folks here in the forum as that was very kind and generous of you!!

But what I wonder is, were the differences in Tony's pattern a matter of making the jacket more scalable to commercial production?

We all remember a time when 90% was "good enough" because there wasn't another option. And as most of us know, and certainly all of the vendors know, sometimes offering a 100% jacket is impossible, especially when you factor in potentially having to makes hundreds on a commercial basis.

And IIRC, didn't Tony say the jacket was poorly constructed and that he made changes in his pattern to make it a better and more durable jacket?

Most of the differences we found are just construction details. Front pockets, straps, inside pocket.
There is only one discrepancy, that I would say is relevant.
I won't give it in detail, as we are the only makers who do it right.
However, it doesn't takes too much effort to figured out, for a jacket maker. Only needs a Nowak and a recent S&J Raiders jackets, in the same size.
Regards.-

One thing I noticed when looking at the pictures of the screen used truck jacket is that it looks much longer than the 23 inch back Tony claimed. Either that or the sleeves are shorter, the ratio between the back length and sleeve length doesn't seem as drastic as was previously believed. Does any one know the actual measurements of the truck jacket?

Are you going by the current photos, or shots from the film? If by the current photos, wear and tear/age/shrinkage probably has some factor in the measurements.

Mike wrote:Are you going by the current photos, or shots from the film? If by the current photos, wear and tear/age/shrinkage probably has some factor in the measurements.

I am going by the current photos. The measurements of the jacket Tony examined were 25.5 sleeve with a 23 inch back. with those measurements the sleeves sit much lower than the body as seen in this picture: https://imgur.com/Iu9i32J" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However the current photos of the truck jacket seem to show it with either a longer back than previously believed or shorter sleeves, probably the former. See in this picture how the sleeves don't cross the body line even though there aren't even wrinkles in the sleeves https://imgur.com/jxPBHYI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thee wrote:

Mike wrote:Are you going by the current photos, or shots from the film? If by the current photos, wear and tear/age/shrinkage probably has some factor in the measurements.

I am going by the current photos. The measurements of the jacket Tony examined were 25.5 sleeve with a 23 inch back. with those measurements the sleeves sit much lower than the body as seen in this picture: https://imgur.com/Iu9i32J" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However the current photos of the truck jacket seem to show it with either a longer back than previously believed or shorter sleeves, probably the former. See in this picture how the sleeves don't cross the body line even though there aren't even wrinkles in the sleeves https://imgur.com/jxPBHYI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can't gauge the length of the sleeves from that single photo because it's misleading.
It's best to see the jacket on either a mannequin or on a body and you will notice that the sleeves are longer than the body of the jacket - even when viewed from the back - although not by much.

M

We agree with everything Mike and Mark said.

Today's actual measurements of a 41 years old lambskin jacket it's not accurate to the brand new measurements (which is what we want).

You must understand how a jacket it's made, and see how the shrinking/stretching affected the different areas.
Then you can calculate the correct measurements...of course there's a try process you must do.

Regards.-

PS: difference between front and back lenght is about 1.5". On Ford's 1980's size, about 22.75" and 24.25" -approx- respectively. This are our conclusions, after analyzing the info we got, and a few tries.

Indiego Jones wrote:We agree with everything Mike and Mark said.

Today's actual measurements of a 41 years old lambskin jacket it's not accurate to the brand new measurements (which is what we want).

You must understand how a jacket it's made, and see how the shrinking/stretching affected the different areas.
Then you can calculate the correct measurements...of course there's a try process you must do.

Regards.-

PS: difference between front and back lenght is about 1.5". On Ford's 1980's size, about 22.75" and 24.25" -approx- respectively. This are our conclusions, after analyzing the info we got, and a few tries.

Well shoot, I can give you the measurements Tony took of the “supposed” RAIDERS Hero jacket. In his shop, he let me try on the “duplicate” he made (HF specs) after supposedly getting to handle a screen used jacket.

knibs7 wrote:

Indiego Jones wrote:We agree with everything Mike and Mark said.

Today's actual measurements of a 41 years old lambskin jacket it's not accurate to the brand new measurements (which is what we want).

You must understand how a jacket it's made, and see how the shrinking/stretching affected the different areas.
Then you can calculate the correct measurements...of course there's a try process you must do.

Regards.-

PS: difference between front and back lenght is about 1.5". On Ford's 1980's size, about 22.75" and 24.25" -approx- respectively. This are our conclusions, after analyzing the info we got, and a few tries.

Well shoot, I can give you the measurements Tony took of the “supposed” RAIDERS Hero jacket. In his shop, he let me try on the “duplicate” he made (HF specs) after supposedly getting to handle a screen used jacket.

I thought it was pretty commonly known that the measurements he took were: 22.5 pit to pit, 25.5 inch sleeve, 23 inch back, 23 inch front.

Belated thanks for the insight, Brandon.

Who says the site and its members don't still have a few tricks left up their sleeve. Amazing.

Thee wrote:

I believe you based your original raiders jackets on Tony's pattern with some main hero tweaks, and you seem to currently have the most accurate raiders pattern due to replicating the truck one. How close was Tony's to the truck jacket pattern? Do you think Tony examined one of the raiders jackets that HF actually wore in the film at some point? I don't think it would be that river jump jacket you refer to as the jacket he examined was very grainy across the entire jacket. Tony stating this SL batch matched exactly what he had in hands:

compared to the jock plane jacket:

That's my old Novak jacket (I recognise my carpet and Les Paul)!! Where on earth did you find those pics?? I don't even have them myself anymore!!

That's my old Novak jacket (I recognise my carpet and Les Paul)!! Where on earth did you find those pics?? I don't even have them myself anymore!!

I got the pictures from a post that indiego made back in 2016 on the fortune and glory forum, So you would have to ask him if he even remembers. He also included pictures of someone wearing it which was actually probably you. Here's is the link, it's' the second post down on that page

MODERATOR EDIT Sorry, links to a site banned from here are not allowed.

My lasting memories of that jacket aren't great. It looked the part, the pattern was good but the leather was rubbish- similar to a thin sponge in many places and mine tore at the drop of a hat. I also couldn't get on with the synthetic lining. Coupled with the price and Tony's rudeness on the telephone, all in all a bad experience.