Club Obi Wan

Texan Scott wrote:It says that Wilson's modified the A-2, as above. They obviously did not stick to her conceptual sketches, but that is what happens. You put an idea down on paper and sometimes it morphs into something else.

Yes i know what the write up says. The write up could also be wrong or have drawn an incorrect conclusion from an interview.

It's possible that Wilson's was provided wit the mock up and they did not follow it. Although that is not mentioned as the problem with the Wilson's jackets. Tehy were 'cheap' and of poor quality leather.

Too bad no one seems to have photos of the wilson's jackets.

RCSignals wrote:Why would she confuse the conceptual sketches with the WC mock up? She is consistent in mentioning the WC mockup, I have yet to read an interview of her in which she mentions any actual jacket was based on the conceptual sketches.
The conceptual sketch that has been shown isn't even an A-2 without knits, it is an A-2.

uh, 30 years and the fog of a distant project that no one knew if it would be a hit at the time...?

Texan Scott wrote:

RCSignals wrote:Why would she confuse the conceptual sketches with the WC mock up? She is consistent in mentioning the WC mockup, I have yet to read an interview of her in which she mentions any actual jacket was based on the conceptual sketches.
The conceptual sketch that has been shown isn't even an A-2 without knits, it is an A-2.

uh, 30 years and the fog of a distant project that no one knew if it would be a hit at the time...?

Everyone uses '30 years' as an excuse, however some information was available before '30 years' had passed. People have also used notes they kept from the time. Even if none of Nadoolman's interviews had occurred until 30 years after the event, what's to say she would not remember events or anything she has related in various interviews? She has been consistent about the jacket and about the WC mock up. She even stated the name of the person she worked with to produce the mock up at Western costumes.
Certainly the 'Bellhop' jacket did not first appear after 30 years had passed.

Ok, RC, you like to shoot in these theories, most all were not involved with the project some 30 years ago. You don't think this info is accurate and you don't think the main site is accurate in its reporting either....so how did it all happen? I'd REALLY like to know?

Who was involved those 30 years ago...Deb, SS, possibly Niel and Peter. Who's right?

Texan Scott wrote:Ok, RC, you like to shoot in these theories, most all were not involved with the project some 30 years ago. You don't think this info is accurate and you don't think the main site is accurate in its reporting either....so how did it all happen? I'd REALLY like to know?

Who was involved those 30 years ago...Deb, SS, possibly Niel and Peter. Who's right?

I don't understand where you are going with this. Who was not involved 30 years ago? What information do I not think is accurate? Is what Nadoolman says herself a 'theory'?
She is giving first hand information is she not? She has been interviewed enough to show a consistency in what she says.
If what is written in something like the the main site write up contradicts first hand information which should we accept as more accurate?

We would all like to know exactly how it happened. The information we have, some of it, is clouded by peoples theories and or assumptions that have not been defined as such, so now tend to be repeated and become 'fact'.

Spend some time in the 'archives' here and in the 'way back machine' There is information there, although probably not everything, see whose statements are different from current day statements.
Lee Keppler has been consistent in his statements about the 'Bell Hop' jacket. Too bad he didn't keep one, or at least take photos of it.
It brings a question, why was such a jacket sold to him as the jacket used in the movie? Far fewer than 30years after the fact.
From there the questions keep coming.

So yes, we all would really like to know.

Mike wrote:Actually, in the fervor over Crystal Skull, LFL and SS did go after a bunch of sites and even Peter's was changed. I believe mostly the text regarding ToD. Other sites such as FS had to change their references to Indy as well. The only one untouched…US Wings.

Then why did US Wings remove all instances of the name "Indiana Jones" from its site at exactly that time? Instead of Indiana Jones, now it says "jackets worn by the star of the 2008 movie featuring that famous fedora-wearing archaeologist". That was either because Lucasfilm told them to do it, or US Wings' own lawyers did, in anticipation of a C&D letter from Lucasfilm.

SD

Actually SD USWings site does also say " Indy-style Adventurer "
the insert documentation that often comes with a USWings I-J jacket says they made the jacket for the Raiders movie.

It does indeed. But do you remember what the website said before May 2008? They purged all use of the trademarked name "Indiana Jones". US Wings wasn't an exception.

St. Dumas wrote:It does indeed. But do you remember what the website said before May 2008? They purged all use of the trademarked name "Indiana Jones". US Wings wasn't an exception.

Meaning that no one (even US Wings) was allowed to use the trademarked name. However, this doesn't change the fact that they have been able to advertise that they made the jacket for Raiders without interference from Lucasfilm. And we have to keep in mind that US Wings is a large, very recognizable company. It's not like it was some rag shop from here in KY advertising they made the jacket. Lucasfilm has to be aware of Wings' claims and, yet, they've not asked them to stop making them.

OK, and once again we're left spinning our wheels in the mire of "what jacket was made by whom and when."

There have been interviews, both official (LFL sanctions publications/behind the scenes videos, etc) and unofficial (conducted by fans) that have always had some degree of inconsistency. In recent months _ has had access to financial documentation that has drastically increased the "what, whom, when" questions and inconsistencies by bringing to light new players that were before unknown in the process of the jacket's creation. Included in the most recent revelations, _ started the "Leather Used in Raiders Hero..." thread that prompted Peter to not only break a silence he has held since December 2009 to defend his position, but also to respond by starting this thread stating in no uncertain terms the "Original Jacket is my design and make."

In my estimation, no amount of us pulling out interview quotes and timelines will cause Peter to change his stance on being the designer of the ROLA jacket. Nor does that matter to me.

And whereas I'm far from the first to ask, the one question I do have, and did ask (carefully) back on page 1:

Sorry, Mike, I wasn't trying to flame nor wander off topic. I still have my Wested after 10 years and like it, both as a quality garment for daily use and for the provenance of being connected to ROLA. The reason for asking about the changes/differences in the straps is based on Peter's statement:


PETER wrote:
I distinctly remember saying what if I can design it so the we have an action pleat that goes to the bottom of the jacket and have action pleats to give easy access. It was agreed that might work so I went back and using the basic bock of a james dean jacket and certain features of an A2 and others I designed a jacket with a full length action pleat ending in a vent only held in place by side straps.

It worked and became the production jacket. To my knowledge NO ONE and no other jacket design has this feature either before or since
and is and was unique to me and my production. As simple as that with no conspiracy theory.
Regards to all
Peter


and the statement on the Wested site of
Quote:
Each jacket is certified as an authentic replica of the Original Film Version. Every Jacket is supplied with a Certificate of Authenticity

yet there are jackets, mine being an example, where the side strap design is different from what is seen on screen as well as what is currently being offered by Wested.

Again, not trying to poke the hornet's nest and if it is deemed too off topic the Admins can delete both of my posts.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

and that was followed up by Hans Jones asking:

All this being said why do none of my westeds look like the jacket on screen?

I said it above and will say it again to avoid the impression I'm trying to flame - I bought my Wested in the spring of 2000 and of all coats/jackets of any type I owned in 2000 this is the only one I still own. That is a testament to both its quality and my like for it. It wasn't until I joined COW that I was even aware there were any inconsistencies in how it is constructed compared to what is seen on screen. BUT, I am now aware, in particular the strap sewing, that there have been changes to the Wested ROLA jacket patterns over the years. Why?

ONLY Peter can answer this. I am very hopeful now that Peter has resurfaced with posting that he will be willing to answer.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

crismans wrote:

St. Dumas wrote:It does indeed. But do you remember what the website said before May 2008? They purged all use of the trademarked name "Indiana Jones". US Wings wasn't an exception.

Meaning that no one (even US Wings) was allowed to use the trademarked name. However, this doesn't change the fact that they have been able to advertise that they made the jacket for Raiders without interference from Lucasfilm. And we have to keep in mind that US Wings is a large, very recognizable company. It's not like it was some rag shop from here in KY advertising they made the jacket. Lucasfilm has to be aware of Wings' claims and, yet, they've not asked them to stop making them.

For what it's worth, "Indiana Jones" appears on the Wested website, as does "Raiders of the Lost Ark". The jacket is not described as a jacket that the Fedora wearing archeologist wore in that famous film, etc. Not only that, Harrison Ford's name appears on the website.

Moreover, the Wested website says:

"This jacket is certified as an authentic copy of the 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' Film jacket as made by us."

So if one reads between the lines that may be an admission that while you are purchasing an authentic copy as made by Wested Leather, that changes to the jacket may have happened after it left Wested's possession.

If by

changes to the jacket may have happened after it left Wested's possession

you mean during filming of ROLA, sure, changes may have been made on set due to repairs or other cosmetic preferences.

What happened on set does not change the fact that Wested jackets sold in the late 90's and early 2000's had a different strap sewing configuration than what is seen on screen and what is currently being offered by Wested. Currently the straps match what's on screen.

This question has been bouncing around the site for years and (to my knowledge) has never been answered by Peter. However, I'm hopeful...

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jeff wrote: This question has been bouncing around the site for years and (to my knowledge) has never been answered by Peter. However, I'm hopeful...

I don't expect it at all. Peter vanished from this conversation in the same spot he has vanished from all conversations; when somebody asks a direct question that could potentially put an end to doubt on something.

Most of this thread reads like "Who's on First," but Peter's silence over the years (aside from the unsupported declarations he makes from time to time) speak more to credibility than any evidence we site against him. I don't say this as an attack on Peter, but an observation that has fueled in me a basic inability to trust the word of Peter Botwright. Until he is willing to back himself up and answer direct questions with direct answers - especially concerning the inaccuracies of his jackets and the "CoA" that has stated different things over the many years we've been getting them - I find that debating what Peter may or may not think/know/believe is pointless.

If he wants credibility, he needs to do more than say he's right and everyone else is wrong. And if DN is his only defense, it has been pointed out that her credibility is not what it once was. It was discussed here (in a deleted thread, I think) that DN was left to say quite a lot without SS causing a ruckus just to make things easier... but her involvement was minimized (if memory serves) before finalizing the jacket and hat used on screen. Also, I've seen enough interviews of DN to realize that her memory of detail is not very sharp, mutating from time to time. I recall that one of SS's peeves about DN was her tendency to delegate work she should have done herself, but she talks as if she did it all personally.

Did one of Peter's jackets reach the screen? I don't doubt it. Was it his "design"? Maybe, in part, it had details he contributed. Will we ever know how many details are his? No, probably not. And if we do, somebody will always disagree.

I'm probably the only one here who thinks the design of the Indy jacket is almost unremarkable. It looks so much like so many jackets made between 1930 and 1960. To say you designed it is like Paris Hilton saying she invented the party girl.

The only feature I have not seen on other jackets is the lower half of the back - yolks are common, so are side straps, but I can't remember any jacket ending in one loose sheet of leather. Obviously to deal with the whip.

I think the key question is whose jacket was filmed? Who made the thing we see and love??? and, right now, I feel that the more we find out, the less we know.

As for Peter's version - does it matter? He's a merchant selling a decent product for a good price. People often acuse him of "stretching the truth" it occurs to me that he may well be sincere. He's telling what he believes is the truth. Of course, that does not make it fact. All of us do this to a greater or lesser extent. The cops know well that if you interview 5 witnesses to a car smash, you'll get 5 different versions of that happened. Why should the making of a jacket be any different?

Even if Peter personally fitted Harrison Ford (I'm not saying he did or didn't) it doesn't mean this jacket was worn by him in the movie. Preproduction is never the same as production on a movie.

Hi guys, hope all is well . I've been following this thread with great interest. some of it I've read before, most is new. That being said, is there a thread, or pics of these ever changing straps? I'd like to see them for myself. I have a newer Wested and would love to compare. It's a LC so it may have different ones altogether. I still what a look at the straps tho'.

Thanks

John

It was my understanding that there were basically two configs. of the Indy jacket. The old pattern had the straps placed almost inside the hand warmers and the pockets are placed further from the storm flap. It was also my understanding that during production, they realized some of these issues and changed the newer iterations. The redesign of the original has the straps placed nearer the seams and the pockets are placed nearer the storm flap. The Blue Label jacket was a copy of this old design. Westeds were made this way in the past, then obviously things were tweaked a little. As to who what where and why only he can answer that...adding to it, Gibson & Barnes received (to observe, take measurements, etc.) a Raiders stuntman's jacket that I believe was a part of the 3rd order. This was the project that some here were involved in, namely Todd, Michaelson, and someone else whose name escapes me. The three jackets that went to stuntmen, if you note the write-up on the main page, referencing the three orders (1st-hero, 2nd-10 jackets, 3rd-3 stuntmen jackets).

Thanks for the info TS. My LC is defintely of newer design.

Thanks again

John

The strap configuration I'm refering to isn't about the placement in regard to the storm flaps, pockets, botton hem, etc. It is about the method used to sew the straps.

On my jacket (c 2000) the straps are sewn into the seam of the back panel. If you look at the back of the jacket you can't really see them at all. When I first used IndyGear in 2000 to research jackets it was mentioned this configuration was less strong and the straps could tear out of the seam. I've never had this problem.

On screen and on current Westeds the straps are sewn to the outside of the back panel with a box stitch so you see where the strap is sewn. I don't have a picture of my jacket off hand to post, but I'll try to get something up in the next day or so.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Oh, I see what you're talking about. My Wested is a box stitch of the newer design. thanks to Indiana Jeff for the extra info.

John

which is wrong because your is an LC.

anyways, the thread goes about the ''orginal jacket'' meaning the raiders. the raiders straps are different from the LC straps.

You know, all of the conversations about who made/designed the jacket (hero or otherwise) always reminds me of this quote:
"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton.

What actually defines a "hero" jacket? Does it have to be worn by the star a certain percent of the time in the movie or will one shot suffice?

Another thing, is it sounds to me that several people made jackets thinking they were going to be worn by Ford, only to have their jacket not used at all or for a different purpose (stuntmen, screen test, etc). Isn't it possible that they believed that they still believe their jacket is the one that is on screen because that is what they assumed and they were never told anything else directly at the time? We are assuming that everyone who had a hand in the jacket creation actually has all of the information from those that were directly involved at the time. We also assume that they have "investigated" this as much as some of the members here have. I think the only way to know with 100% certainty what took place is if we hope in a hot tub time machine and travel back to 1980/1981 a witness it for ourselves. People's memories
fade, and even paper trails don't tell the whole story.

Anyway, I think the hero jacket was mysteriously found in a box on GL's or SS's doorstep one afternoon. That's how I always find my new jackets.

What do we know? The first order was apparently the LC 'Hero' jacket. The 2nd order were 10 sub-standard LC jackets that apparently were not used, or at least, used very little. The 3rd order was for the three stuntmen jackets.

Just prior to when the first order from LC was delivered, SS & NC produced the Cooper 'Hero' jacket made apparently out of calfskin for the first day of filming.

Indiana Holt wrote:which is wrong because your is an LC.

anyways, the thread goes about the ''orginal jacket'' meaning the raiders. the raiders straps are different from the LC straps.

I said it was to start with! My question was for the straps, not to start on a different direction. Sorry, I didn't mean for it to go there.

We could chase our tail in circles forever on this subject. It's like horsewhipping ether.

Another thing, is it sounds to me that several people made jackets thinking they were going to be worn by Ford, only to have their jacket not used at all or for a different purpose (stuntmen, screen test, etc). Isn't it possible that they believed that they still believe their jacket is the one that is on screen because that is what they assumed and they were never told anything else directly at the time? We are assuming that everyone who had a hand in the jacket creation actually has all of the information from those that were directly involved at the time. We also assume that they have "investigated" this as much as some of the members here have. I think the only way to know with 100% certainty what took place is if we hope in a hot tub time machine and travel back to 1980/1981 a witness it for ourselves. People's memories
fade, and even paper trails don't tell the whole story.

You know, this may very well be the truth of the matter. Does anyone really doubt that Peter was involved in a jacket for Raiders? Seems to me from what I have read here, that his involvement is not questioned. It's whether the jacket he was involved with actually made it to film-right? I have also read here that you see at least two different jackets in Raiders. Which would seem to mean that both he and the other guy were used in the film.

In CS, I recall a stand in telling me that Harrison's stand in for the train scene was wearing a gray Barons fedora. Yet, Ford wore my gray fedora in the film. Maybe something like this happened with the jackets? And I thought the Raiders hat was controversial!! You guys sure know your jackets is all I can say. So, back I go to the side lines and let the experts carry on. Fedora

At this point, it could be 3 hero jackets: the NC, LC and WC mock up used just briefly. What qualifies a 'Hero' jacket but one that was worn by the 'hero' and appeared on screen...?

I think I'll join ya on the sidelines there, if ya don't mind Fedora? This one's a bit deeper than I care to swim.

whipwarrior wrote:You all do realize that someday the answers to all of these questions will be found in Jimmy Hoffa's briefcase?

Band Director Jones wrote:
Anyway, I think the hero jacket was mysteriously found in a box on GL's or SS's doorstep one afternoon. That's how I always find my new jackets.

We must admit that some alternative theories are obviously overlooked .

Han Jones wrote:All this being said why do none of my westeds look like the jacket on screen?

Why do none of the US Wings look like the jacket on screen ?

TMFR

I think the issue is that Wested writes the that they did it and it's all their idea. They don't seem to entertain the notion that they may not have been aware of other folks working in parallel with similar guidance, which is evidently the case.

So I guess Peter is entitled to his perception of events based on what he did, but he really can't speak to what the production company did that he wasn't aware of.

...the tree in front (PB), rather than the whole forest (SS).

John Vaughan wrote:

Indiana Holt wrote:which is wrong because your is an LC.

anyways, the thread goes about the ''orginal jacket'' meaning the raiders. the raiders straps are different from the LC straps.

I said it was to start with! My question was for the straps, not to start on a different direction. Sorry, I didn't mean for it to go there.

John, I think your confusion is over the "LC" thing. In this discussion, LC means Leather Concessionaires, not Last Crusade.

ThatManFromRio wrote:Why do none of the US Wings look like the jacket on screen ?

TMFR

If I'm not mistaken, the current US Wings is based more on an Last Crusade design. Also, Wings makes no claim to a screen accurate jacket, and admit readily to altering it for a more practical, wide-customer-base market.

Chewbacca Jones wrote:

John Vaughan wrote:

Indiana Holt wrote:which is wrong because your is an LC.

anyways, the thread goes about the ''orginal jacket'' meaning the raiders. the raiders straps are different from the LC straps.

I said it was to start with! My question was for the straps, not to start on a different direction. Sorry, I didn't mean for it to go there.

John, I think your confusion is over the "LC" thing. In this discussion, LC means Leather Concessionaires, not Last Crusade.

My bad, thanks man, Now I don't feel like I stepped in something and walked on everyones floor.

Chewbacca Jones wrote:

ThatManFromRio wrote:Why do none of the US Wings look like the jacket on screen ?

TMFR

If I'm not mistaken, the current US Wings is based more on an Last Crusade design. Also, Wings makes no claim to a screen accurate jacket, and admit readily to altering it for a more practical, wide-customer-base market.

Yeah, it's obvious that the US Wings jacket is not meant to be SA. The collar itself gives that away. To me, the US Wings jacket looks like an A-2 minus the knit ribbing. The Indy jacket looks like it was at least partially inspired by an A-2, but the collar alone makes it more than a modified A-2.

Okay, so I know that Wested, Todd's and Tony Nowak's shop make jackets that are fairly SA. The question I have is, if US Wings bought Cooper, and Cooper designed a jacket for SS, why isn't a recreation of that jacket for sale? Unless US Wings has no desire to enter that particular niche market... .

BTW, if you're in Mountaintop, we're not too far from one another.

Fedora wrote: Does anyone really doubt that Peter was involved in a jacket for Raiders?

Well, in my opinion, IF someone does doubt about it, it's just for one thing: the fact that the standard jackets sold by Wested are NOT an exact replica. The Certificate of Authenticity states that the jackets are cut following the original patterns, and still they don't match with the movie version.

So, basically, saying that a Wested jacket is an exact reproduction is a plain LIE. And please, this statement is not intented to be a flame, but it's just a fact. The jackets made by Wested DON'T have the same patterns of the one(s) seen in the movie, am I right?

I think this is the main reason why some folks started to argue about the origins ot the Raiders Jacket. And I also think that we will NEVER get an answer. This is because:

1) if Peter Botwright is telling the thruth, well, he will obvioulsy continue to say he made the jacket - because it is the thruth;
2) if he is lying, he will continue to say he made the jacket anyway. this because admitting that he lied all the time would cost him too much: his sales would collapse, and he could be sued for fraud. just think how many people would say "I bought your jacket because I tought it was THE original, now I want my money back".


Ok, now I'll got back to my little corner I hope didn't sound flaming/offensive/rude. If so, please keep in mind that it wasn't my intention, and that english is not my first language, so I often tend to "simplify" the things I say with the risk of sounding too frank

Rick Deckard wrote:The question I have is, if US Wings bought Cooper, and Cooper designed a jacket for SS, why isn't a recreation of that jacket for sale? Unless US Wings has no desire to enter that particular niche market... .

I think that's exactly it. Although, their up-coming Neil Cooper pattern offering might be a re-entry into that market.

BTW, if you're in Mountaintop, we're not too far from one another.

Oh, really! We should get together for coffee or dinner or something. Canyon will be here most of June, too. We could make a night of it.

Chewbacca Jones wrote:

BTW, if you're in Mountaintop, we're not too far from one another.

Oh, really! We should get together for coffee or dinner or something. Canyon will be here most of June, too. We could make a night of it.

Jealous!!! According to mapquest, I'm only 386.84 miles from you guys...I could leave at breakfast, and be there by dinner.

Travis

The question I have is, if US Wings bought Cooper, and Cooper designed a jacket for SS, why isn't a recreation of that jacket for sale? Unless US Wings has no desire to enter that particular niche market... .

I believe Sarge is willing to entertain the idea of making that pattern...and, in fact, you're right, Chewie...I DO think that the upcoming striated lamb in the old Cooper patterns is possibly exactly what you might be looking for...

Just will have to wait and see what the wheels do while they're turning...

Okay, so I know that Wested, Todd's and Tony Nowak's shop make jackets that are fairly SA. The question I have is, if US Wings bought Cooper, and Cooper designed a jacket for SS, why isn't a recreation of that jacket for sale? Unless US Wings has no desire to enter that particular niche market... .

Chewbacca Jones beat me to it, but, and this is strictly my own theory but a certain striated lamb coming down the pike might fit that bill. As did a Blue Label jacket sometime previously.

Indydawg wrote:

The question I have is, if US Wings bought Cooper, and Cooper designed a jacket for SS, why isn't a recreation of that jacket for sale? Unless US Wings has no desire to enter that particular niche market... .

I believe Sarge is willing to entertain the idea of making that pattern...and, in fact, you're right, Chewie...I DO think that the upcoming striated lamb in the old Cooper patterns is possibly exactly what you might be looking for...

Just will have to wait and see what the wheels do while they're turning...

It will be interesting to which pattern it is. the 'Hawaii' jacket pattern attributed to Neil Cooper, or what the 'Blue label' was based on, which to me looks close to the Bantu Wind scene jacket (other than the back panel space from the shoulder, but the 'Blue label' may have deviated from the original used to copy from in that respect)

Chewbacca Jones wrote:

Rick Deckard wrote:The question I have is, if US Wings bought Cooper, and Cooper designed a jacket for SS, why isn't a recreation of that jacket for sale? Unless US Wings has no desire to enter that particular niche market... .

I think that's exactly it. Although, their up-coming Neil Cooper pattern offering might be a re-entry into that market.

BTW, if you're in Mountaintop, we're not too far from one another.

Oh, really! We should get together for coffee or dinner or something. Canyon will be here most of June, too. We could make a night of it.

I didn't realize there were two Mountaintop's. I'll PM you. I'm in Happy Valley.

Something to keep in mind about any of the Raiders jackets irregardless of its maker, they didn't survive filming or age well. All of the survivors have been described as pieces of junk. They were made to look good on screen hopefully to the end of shooting. Any manufacturer would have had to make design concessions to keep the returns to a minimum. Remember, 99.9% of the planet think an A2 is an Indy jacket. Anyone making a jacket just for this picky group would go broke.

-P-

Prescott wrote: Anyone making a jacket just for this picky group would go broke.

-P-

thank you

Rick Deckard wrote:Okay, so I know that Wested, Todd's and Tony Nowak's shop make jackets that are fairly SA. The question I have is, if US Wings bought Cooper, and Cooper designed a jacket for SS, why isn't a recreation of that jacket for sale? Unless US Wings has no desire to enter that particular niche market...

Michaelson has stated before that We make a small percentage of US Wings sales. They have many different contracts, military and local police forces, to which I believe Michaelson has said that they supply some Indy jackets to. SA is not at the forefront of their agenda as it is to Wested. The Blue Label jacket, which I have, was a departure from that and their upcoming jacket is as well. But realize that they are concerned with making a jacket that will endure the test of time as they are a makers of all kinds of jackets and have different standards to uphold with a larger customer base.

Dave

Hollowpond wrote:I'm only 386.84 miles from you guys...I could leave at breakfast, and be there by dinner.

Travis

It almost seems close enough, don't it?

Rick Deckard wrote: I'll PM you. I'm in Happy Valley.

Replied before I saw this.

G&B copied a Raiders stuntman's jacket (must have been from the 3rd order, noting the main page write-up), and they make them VERY sturdy. I have one in lamb and it will be with me from now on.

DR Ulloa wrote:

Rick Deckard wrote:Okay, so I know that Wested, Todd's and Tony Nowak's shop make jackets that are fairly SA. The question I have is, if US Wings bought Cooper, and Cooper designed a jacket for SS, why isn't a recreation of that jacket for sale? Unless US Wings has no desire to enter that particular niche market...

Michaelson has stated before that We make a small percentage of US Wings sales. They have many different contracts, military and local police forces, to which I believe Michaelson has said that they supply some Indy jackets to. SA is not at the forefront of their agenda as it is to Wested. The Blue Label jacket, which I have, was a departure from that and their upcoming jacket is as well. But realize that they are concerned with making a jacket that will endure the test of time as they are a makers of all kinds of jackets and have different standards to uphold with a larger customer base.

Dave

Yes 'M' said US Wings supplies Indy jackets to one of the Power Utilities I think. I just can't remember which one.
Peter has also said COW doesn't represent the bulk of his I-J jacket sales. Same applies to Tony Nowak's sales of I-J jackets. COW may represent the most 'intense' interest in the jackets though

RCSignals wrote:
Yes 'M' said US Wings supplies Indy jackets to one of the Power Utilities I think. I just can't remember which one.

it's the Tennessee Valley Authority

Chewbacca Jones wrote:

Indiana Jeff wrote: This question has been bouncing around the site for years and (to my knowledge) has never been answered by Peter. However, I'm hopeful...

I don't expect it at all. Peter vanished from this conversation in the same spot he has vanished from all conversations; when somebody asks a direct question that could potentially put an end to doubt on something.

Most of this thread reads like "Who's on First," but Peter's silence over the years (aside from the unsupported declarations he makes from time to time) speak more to credibility than any evidence we site against him. I don't say this as an attack on Peter, but an observation that has fueled in me a basic inability to trust the word of Peter Botwright. Until he is willing to back himself up and answer direct questions with direct answers - especially concerning the inaccuracies of his jackets and the "CoA" that has stated different things over the many years we've been getting them - I find that debating what Peter may or may not think/know/believe is pointless.

If he wants credibility, he needs to do more than say he's right and everyone else is wrong. And if DN is his only defense, it has been pointed out that her credibility is not what it once was. It was discussed here (in a deleted thread, I think) that DN was left to say quite a lot without SS causing a ruckus just to make things easier... but her involvement was minimized (if memory serves) before finalizing the jacket and hat used on screen. Also, I've seen enough interviews of DN to realize that her memory of detail is not very sharp, mutating from time to time. I recall that one of SS's peeves about DN was her tendency to delegate work she should have done herself, but she talks as if she did it all personally.

Did one of Peter's jackets reach the screen? I don't doubt it. Was it his "design"? Maybe, in part, it had details he contributed. Will we ever know how many details are his? No, probably not. And if we do, somebody will always disagree.

Thank you Chewie. This is all mind numbing. We can debate this till we are blue in the face. If Mr. Botwright is going to make a claim like he has...then he needs to back it up. Or else, like it has and is will remain conjecture.

High Regards,
Sean