Club Obi Wan

Corroborating evidence, as the reliability of a first person account from a witness with a very sharp eye is highly persuasive. The scales are tipping.

...we're beginning to see that the true genius work behind the costume had much to do with SS, and his flair for accuracy and details.

If memory serves, Debra claims to have never met someone named Swale's while pursuing the hat aspect and Swale's claims to have never met someone named Debra. She claims she put the input on the "look" of the hat. Swale's always claimed to have done things like: put on a narrower ribbon, trim the brim for camera angle, etc.. _'s accounts from his research and documents seems to confirm this.

My speculation is that it is possible for Debra to have found HJ and visited the shop. She probably was not "advertising" that she was looking for hats for a film production. Possibly at that point, she was just shopping and researching. Spielberg and Ford, later, went to the shop and dealt directly with Swales. These two accounts seem to fit to me. For what that is worth.

Nice to seen these fine points coming together.

Since she was not on set for daily production after the beginning, I take it, then that the assitant did all the daily things. Could Kelly Kimball be key in developing "the turn"? This film was very unashamed at bashing the hat in various ways.
Did Kelly Kimball work on the other two films?

LLS

Again thanks _ for sharing. Hopefully someone won't shoot the messanger. Ok, this here....

He had a short note that Deb was at HJ researching fedoras for Harrison. I asked about "reasearching" and he responded that's what he wrote so he believes that's what she would have said to him. The same note source had Harrison on the set at Elstree that day.

Wait, I thought she left after France? I have to assume Ford being on set at Elstree, did not have him wearing a hat, that is, they were not shooting? Forgive my denseness.

And his notes do put D.N. at HJ which would confirm her story as going, although she may not have met with Swales, which would explain him not recounting this story. That is, she may have met with someone else other than Swales.

His "recollection" was that Deb did the legwork after Steven told her what he wanted (_: his feedback on the Akubra?) and that Steven's and Harrison's trip there was to accept it. So we have a contradiction, but I'm inclined to believe both recollections are "honest."

Ok, this would fit in with SS taking control of the hat, after he discarded the full blown Aussie hat. It would be easy to assume that after SS took control, D.N. then went to HJ to get them to make SS's vision of the hat. This may have been referenced in the notes you quoted from Ian, i.e. she researched the hat. Which was later picked up by SS.

So Ian put her at HJ. What we don't know is exactly what she was doing. Was she creating the prototype that SS wanted? That was ordered and later picked up by SS. Rhetorical questions yes.

Personally, I think it sounds like the dimensional cut is a giveaway that something transpired to somewhat prepare those Poets for Steven and Harrison's visit

Yes, I think this is sensical, and may point towards her involvement, although this may have been SS's idea, and she was the gopher for SS. Fedora

Hey, Gang -


I mentioned before the arrival of The Henry that Swales had spoken to me in the 1990's that they were clearing out all the weaker fedoras (the new fur stunk) at 50 pounds a pop and that the new hat would be more like (paraphrased) "what we were getting out of Portugal."

This was over the phone but he always remembered me as one of the first gear heads, having walked into the store in 1986 with my Poet from 1984 and got it stretched back out, ribbon changed, etc.

But indications were that the HJ hats were coming out of Portugal before the TOD switch.

Is not Portugal where Marc got the Henry block? I forget but, if so, it fits.


Then again too - he was referring to the fur and that the block was in Spain or somewhere else.

That part is, admittedly, not clear.

I mentioned before the arrival of The Henry that Swales had spoken to me in the 1990's that they were clearing out all the weaker fedoras (the new fur stunk) at 50 pounds a pop and that the new hat would be more like (paraphrased) "what we were getting out of Portugal."

This was over the phone but he always remembered me as one of the first gear heads, having walked into the store in 1986 with my Poet from 1984 and got it stretched back out, ribbon changed, etc.

But indications were that the HJ hats were coming out of Portugal before the TOD switch.

Is not Portugal where Marc got the Henry block? I forget but, if so, it fits.


Then again too - he was referring to the fur and that the block was in Spain or somewhere else.

That part is, admittedly, not clear.

The Portugal connection, not sure. Now Portugal makes felt bodies, for hatters. But I don't know why HJ were buying bodies from Portugal, as the way this generally works, is Hj contacts a hat factory, and then buys that factories hat, who puts the HJ name on the sweats. The factory in Portugal who makes bodies, does not make hats. Now at some point in time, HJ actually made hats, and could have sourced their felt from Portugal, which is some of the better felt one can buy then, and now. Is it possible that the Raiders fedora was made by HJ? In their own factory? Which no longer exists? I think we need some historical research done on HJ to find out, when they stopped making their own hats, and outsourced them. If they stopped in the 60's, then this means the Raiders hat was made by some other factory. And if the Spain factory made the Raiders fedora, why does the current HJ not meet up with the Raiders specs? And trust me, it sure doesn't match the Raiders fedora, because of too much taper and is too tall to boot at 5 3/4 open crown. Fedora

Wait a minute. Did I not see a a pic or video of D.L. on location???????

_ wrote:Oh, George has something to say:

hello Indiana jones fans. Thank you for all of your support.

Yours sincerely,

George Lucas

Regards! Michaelson

Thanks Georgy. I suppose he's reading our madness from time to time.


I found this picture online (from http://www.jones-jr.com ), described as "Deborah Nadoolman
avec Harrison Ford". Does anyone recognize if it's really her or her assistant?

Doesn't look like DN to me.

Regards! Michaelson

My thought exactly.

Could that be Kimball?

On website hollywood.com she's actually credited as costume designer

Wardrobe Hair Makeup Credit
Deborah Nadoolman Costume Designer
Dickie Mills Makeup
Kelly Kimball Costume Designer
Tom Smith Makeup

_ wrote:Ian's quick response:

- He had a short note that Deb was at HJ researching fedoras for Harrison. I asked about "reasearching" and he responded that's what he wrote so he believes that's what she would have said to him. The same note source had Harrison on the set at Elstree that day.

- He shows Martin wearing an HJ fedora on the set at Elstree, however he also had "good enough" fedoras that B&N supplied for the stuntmen and body doubles in general. I can attest that I've sen Vic's Raiders fedora and it does not look like it was ever a $400 hat.

- He does not remember an issue with color but says that doesn't mean there was not one. He does recall that they took as many as HJ could get - and that the 6 hats was it.

- His "recollection" was that Deb did the legwork after Steven told her what he wanted (_: his feedback on the Akubra?) and that Steven's and Harrison's trip there was to accept it. So we have a contradiction, but I'm inclined to believe both recollections are "honest."

- Ian had a good memory of the Akubra. It had gromets in the crown and through the brim, with a leather band. He said it was "tossed into B&N's stock, but they never used it for the production."

don't know about you gents, but this helps me...

_:
I am sure you know how fascinating your posts continue to be. How great to have such direct contact with both SS and GL. What a life you lead! I hope it is as much fun in real life as it sounds on line.

Your connection with Ian and his comments are another important piece of the puzzle. It seems to confirm that Deborah did have some interaction with HJ and went there to look for SS's vision of the hat. I think she went there with images of Secret of the Incas in her mind and probably went looking for a broad brimmed hat.This might actually give credance to it being SS who actually asked for the brim to be cut down and not her since she might have thought he wanted a wide brimmed hat. Also to, if she had preordered a hat, and this to me is critical, she would have had to make a deposit or pay in full for the hat especially if she wanted them to cut it down or change the ribbon. This should be something you would have a receipt for but since you do not it leads me to think she looked at a bunch of hats and narrowed down the choice for SS. I then think SS went with HF who tried the hat on. SS felt the brim was too big and asked for it to be cut down and perhaps (for some reason) asked for a different ribbon.

I also agree with Local land surveyor that when Deborah went shopping for the hat hat she might not have met Swales or told anyone that the hat was for a film. It would actually makes some sense to keep things on the down low in case SS did not like the hat.
Best
Canada

_ wrote:Oh, George has something to say:

hello Indiana jones fans. Thank you for all of your support.

Yours sincerely,

George Lucas

You're welcome, George. You have added MUCH to my life.



Great pic, Erri. That is the footage they show on the 1st DVD set when DN is talking about the costume. I had wonder, at the time, if that was her. Look to be in France. My opinion.

LLS

_ wrote:Oh, George has something to say:

hello Indiana jones fans. Thank you for all of your support.

Yours sincerely,

George Lucas

what a guy...

and thank YOU Mr Lucas.

Indiana Holt wrote:

_ wrote:Oh, George has something to say:

hello Indiana jones fans. Thank you for all of your support.

Yours sincerely,

George Lucas

what a guy...

and thank YOU Mr Lucas.

I agree with Holt. Thank YOU Mr. Lucas!!!

We should have some sort of COW medal or somthing to give to him...

_,

Thanks for GL's message. I hope he knows that one of the best thank you's for us fans would be the Trilogy on Bluray this year .

Matt

_ wrote:I believe that is Sue Wain. Deb is very attractive.

Could even be Rita Wakely... have you personally seen all the members of the costume department? If you did, my hat off to you, must be not an easy task

Do you know who's the guy with black beard with a white cap?

An odd conversation? At COW??

LJ

Still doesn't rank up there with 'boxers or briefs', in my opinion.
...or 'should I be wearing my jacket when I shoot it with my 9mm?'



Regards! Michaelson

_ wrote:I've seen pictures of Deb. I've met Sue, albeit 25 years later. I've had the pleasure of meeting many of these folks either personally or over the phone.

Is it just me or is this an odd conversation

That explains.
How is it odd?

I'm firmly convinced that if he put his mind to it, _ can track down Jimmy Hoffa in about a day and a half. WITH taking his lunch breaks!

Wow, I just had to keep reading this thread from start to end. It's way past my bedtime now (it's 3.30am in Holland atm), but it was all worth it.
Thanks _, for bringing so much more pieces of the puzzle to the table. It must be weird asking the main players all these obscure questions. Kudos to you!

Cheers,
Richard

_ wrote:Also took the opportunity of the reply to confirm the stunt men's lids. "Yep they were using genrics unless the shot called for something better."

Hmm, I remember in BTS footage and pics seeing people sorta dressed like Indy, but not quite right. Could their other attire also be generics? Just look at this pic:



Regards,
Richard

_ wrote:Nope - That is Martin Grace in the background and the shooting is at Elstree...

I understand, but the colors of his gear are off when compared to Harrison's. Which leads me to think that perhaps the other gear might have been generics as well. As you said the stuntmen only wore HJ's and perhaps also other 'accurate' gear when it was necessary for the shot.
Atleast this is what I get from the info presented, but I could be way off.

Regards,
Richard

That explains the order of only four brown hats from HJ. This makes sense though. Why outfit all your stuntmen and body doubles with expensive gear when it usually wasn't needed. This was filmed on a tight budget, so it only makes sense to do it this way. I'm sure one or two if the brown hats ordered from HJ were sized for a stuntman, but I think they may have just been backups - a "just in case."

Dave

Terry Leonard must have worn a real deal HJ. In the behind the scenes video, where he was doing the under the truck stunt, he has on a hat that has an identical bow,(flying v) as well as the same color of felt. His hat looks to be the same as Harrisons. So it seems Vic got to use a real one.

I am still a little puzzled about the hat though. There is a pic in D.L's book, of the artist rendition of the Indy costume, and while the costume is not identical to what he did wear in the film, she shows him wearing a fedora, with a tight front pinch. So, if her costume drawings show a fedora, instead of that aussie hat, it looks like a fedora was on her mind from the get go.



Thoughts? Fedora

Bullitt wrote:

_ wrote:Also took the opportunity of the reply to confirm the stunt men's lids. "Yep they were using genrics unless the shot called for something better."

Hmm, I remember in BTS footage and pics seeing people sorta dressed like Indy, but not quite right. Could their other attire also be generics? Just look at this pic:



Regards,
Richard

_ are you suer that's really Martin Grace? His jacket isn't even an Indy jacket in this pic. Someone once mentioned ages ago that this may have just been a guy dressed in similar attire for the puposes of lining up camera angles and lighting or something. Not that I know what they get up to on movie sets- but that sure isn't the same jacket that Grace is wearing in the second pic. Doesn't even look like the same guy to me.

You know how many drawings they go though to get what they want? and most of the time the finish product doesn't look anything like what they started with. Most of the time these drawing is to get the color down and the over all feel.

I guess it must be Grace then - but what's up with that jacket, it looks like it has a suit jacket lapel?!

_ wrote:

whiskyman wrote:I guess it must be Grace then - but what's up with that jacket, it looks like it has a suit jacket lapel?!

Nope - It is the flap and the zip folded back and washed out in direct light... Really...

YJ, et al may scoff, but this is why screen-grabs and other static pics cannot be trusted 100%. They are problematic and full of opportunity to think one knows more than they do... JMO...

I totally agree with that statement _. Sometimes you cant trust what you see from screen grabs. I think if we could go back in time and see these items, it would be a let down.

You know how many drawings they go though to get what they want? and most of the time the finish product doesn't look anything like what they started with. Most of the time these drawing is to get the color down and the over all feel.

I took this drawing to be a real early one, when she was thinking about the costume. This pic is in her book, when telling about the Indy costume. I just thought it was something that she had him in a fedora in the early stages of thinking about the costume.

Remember in the film tests with Selleck? He was wearing a gray fedora if I recall correctly. Why so many fedoras, and then she chose a Aussie hat to throw at SS? From her book, she still says...

Deborah Nadoolman: 'When Harrison was finally cast, I designed and made the leather jackets at Berman's & Nathan's Costumers in London. I decided to give them a deep pleat, an 'action' back, to accommodate the use of the whip. The fedora was one that I designed, based on an 'Australian' model at the venerable Herbert Johnson’s of Savile Row. Lowering the crown and shortening the brim suited Harrison’s long face better than anything else I could find on the market. The proportion of hats must be absolutely perfect. When the costume was eventually finished, Steven [Spielberg) was thrilled because it was exactly what he had asked for. I believe that designers can and do happily surprise directors on a daily basis."

Ok, I am hardheaded. We have at least two guys, besides HF doing a film test, and both wore fedoras. We have drawings of the costume with Indy in a fedora...and to an uninterested guy, it is logical to assume she was gonna use a fedora. What contradicts this is the SS story, but then again, we really don't have great details with his story, going by what is posted here on this thread. But it sounds odd, her drawing in a fedora on the prototype costume and then giving SS an Aussie hat with chin strap and eyelets. I am thinking out loud here. Something seems to be missing in the story, in order for it to make good sense, at least to me.

Is it just a coincidence that the drawing she had done, of the costume, probably in the early stages of development shows the fedora with a tight front pinch that was not used in later films? But I guess, SS could have looked at that pic and creased the hat with that tight front pinch. Did Harry Steele's broad double brimmed hat have a tight front crease, I can't recall. I do have the dvd though. Great film. Fedora

Sorry Steve,

That statement wasn't directed at you. That was a poor attempt to comment one one of Pattersons statement about the "only thing left over was the front pinch."

I agree with you brother that She had a fedora in mind from the start and the slouch could have been her way to have a raw body to work with ( crown height and brim width). To show an example to swales or S.S. Who knows for sure. It doesn't make sense that she would go from fedora to slouch hat.

[quote][Riddle me this? Where's the whip? The gun & gunbelt? The bag? /quote]

Would those items not fall under the prop dept.? She was responsible for the costume, not the props. At least that is the way I understand this stuff. I think this drawing is an early one, when she was working on getting the look together. And it changed over time as she worked on it. Seems like I recall other costume pics that were not identical to the final costume. But the memory isn't so good.

Seems like if she was considering using the Aussie hat, her drawings would have reflected that.....again just thinking out loud here. And trying to get some logic going to bring loose ends together. It just seems so coincidental that she had a fedora on the prototype Indy costume. And that fedoras were used in the film tests of Selleck and the other actor considered. This in a way backs up her story about the trip to HJ, and not being able to find a hat with enough brim, so she grabbed a wide brimmed aussie hat, and modifed it, as the prototype, on which the film hats were to be based.

Perhaps she had already done the leg work, and SS picked up the first hat made, which they took to France, and later picked up the other 5 for Ford. Yet we have Terry's hat which is a dead ringer for Harrisons. Was this one of the 5 brown hats SS picked up? I guess going by the invoices, it would have to be. Which would give Ford 4 brown hats and one gray hat to use in the film. Fedora

Sorry Steve,

That statement wasn't directed at you. That was a poor attempt to comment one one of Pattersons statement about the "only thing left over was the front pinch."

Oh yeah, I understood that John. Fedora

Fedora wrote:

[Riddle me this? Where's the whip? The gun & gunbelt? The bag? /quote]

Would those items not fall under the prop dept.? She was responsible for the costume, not the props. At least that is the way I understand this stuff. I think this drawing is an early one, when she was working on getting the look together. And it changed over time as she worked on it. Seems like I recall other costume pics that were not identical to the final costume. But the memory isn't so good.

Seems like if she was considering using the Aussie hat, her drawings would have reflected that.....again just thinking out loud here. And trying to get some logic going to bring loose ends together. It just seems so coincidental that she had a fedora on the prototype Indy costume. And that fedoras were used in the film tests of Selleck and the other actor considered. This in a way backs up her story about the trip to HJ, and not being able to find a hat with enough brim, so she grabbed a wide brimmed aussie hat, and modifed it, as the prototype, on which the film hats were to be based.

Perhaps she had already done the leg work, and SS picked up the first hat made, which they took to France, and later picked up the other 5 for Ford. Yet we have Terry's hat which is a dead ringer for Harrisons. Was this one of the 5 brown hats SS picked up? I guess going by the invoices, it would have to be. Which would give Ford 4 brown hats and one gray hat to use in the film. Fedora

This is just one reason why I don't know why we were casting her to the side.

Well, to us here, the Raiders fedora has always been shrouded in mystery, and even with the new info, it still is to me. Which is pretty cool IMO. Sometimes the mystery is the most interesting thing, and to discover the answers can sometimes be a bit of a let down. I love the Raiders fedora with mystery attached. It might not look as good in full lighting with all of the blemishes highly visible. And sometimes, when something has been shrouded in mystery for so many years. it is best to keep it that way! Which basically, this thread still does. We have new info, but still lack many of the small details.

And no wonder Ford handled his hat so much in Raiders. He did not have a Bernie to hand him and change out hats. Looks like he was doing much of this himself in Raiders. Which probably added to the look too. To me it looked like he knew what he was doing with that hat, going by behind the scenes footage. Fedora

_ wrote:

BendingOak wrote:This is just one reason why I don't know why we were casting her to the side.

Just keep reminding us - you're right...

Thats not what I was doing. I just don't think we should take the " throw the baby out with the baby" point of view when some new info comes along. Most were ready to hang the poor women.

_ wrote:It's understandable if you've never been on a set. Harrison's under lighting and Martin is not. Check this pic, where both are in the same gear as above, but also under the shooting lights:

I can see you make a valid point, that they would be under different lighting conditions. And no, I haven't been on any sets, alas.

Steve, I think what you said about Terry Leonards fedora holds up. It probably is one of the HJ's. This reminds me of the screen used SoC hat Desi has. He said something like a stuntman just grabbed this hat out of a box and used it for a stunt. That this happened to be the 'hero' fedora makes sense, if they only had access to such a limited number of hats. I guess the budget difference is apparent when compared to CS.

Regards,
Richard

I don't think anyone is casting her aside, BOak. I think folks are just continuing to scratch their collective heads over her constant wandering back and forth memory regarding details of her involvement.

One interview she said she did all the original jacket work at Wilson's, and had to hurriedly get one put together at B&N for the first day of shooting because the Wilson's were @#$% and just fell apart when she tried to distress them....and then in the interview from her book quoted above she says she did ALL the work at B&N, and no mention of the Wilson debacle what so ever.

She's been consistant in her inconsistancies since we first started gathering information back in the mid 90's, and things do not seem to be getting any better....so there's a reason for all the doubt, and not just hinged on the recent 'discoveries'.

Regards! Michaelson

You seem to have cohesive stories from the three principals involved: SS, HF and Swales. Their stories seem to align. Then you have the one hold-out, whose no two stories are the same, with an Australian hat in hand...?

It makes sense that the story isn't 100% right all the time. As time passes and you have to tell the same story over and over again. Do you not self edit? Remember this was a job of many jobs. having her remember exactly what happened is not possible.

Thats like a customer calling me up and saying " I'm the guy who ordered the brown hat" I have to go to the order form to see the details but the paper never covers the talk I had originally, just the details to make the hat. IE: crown height, brim specs, ribbon size and color (and of course color of the felt). I can tell you when he ordered, how much he paid but the details on how we came up with the exact style has been lost.

A lot of her story holds. There are some wholes but that is expected giving how much time has passed.


I don't see S.S. , G.L. or swales story holding true any more than hers. They all have pieces missing or wholes in the story.

No argument here.

In her case, though, it's a HUGE gap when one interview she says she was instrumental in finding such and such an item, dealing directly with such and such an individual at such and such a shop....then in another interview she says she's never heard of said shop nor the person involved, and did something in a completely different manner than originally reported...by her!

It's THOSE huge swings that have kept folks scratching their head all these years.

I've read and actually been involved in a multitude of interviews over the years (since the mid 80's, as a matter of fact), and it's been her stories that have been all over the scope. About the ONLY thing I can honestly say in MY experience with her history is she DID design the costume, and was involved with Raiders of the Lost Ark. Anything else is subject to translation. Located somewhere in all that chaff is the truth.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora wrote:

[Riddle me this? Where's the whip? The gun & gunbelt? The bag? /quote]

Would those items not fall under the prop dept.? She was responsible for the costume, not the props. At least that is the way I understand this stuff. I think this drawing is an early one, when she was working on getting the look together. And it changed over time as she worked on it. Seems like I recall other costume pics that were not identical to the final costume. But the memory isn't so good.

Seems like if she was considering using the Aussie hat, her drawings would have reflected that.....again just thinking out loud here. And trying to get some logic going to bring loose ends together. It just seems so coincidental that she had a fedora on the prototype Indy costume. And that fedoras were used in the film tests of Selleck and the other actor considered. This in a way backs up her story about the trip to HJ, and not being able to find a hat with enough brim, so she grabbed a wide brimmed aussie hat, and modifed it, as the prototype, on which the film hats were to be based.

Perhaps she had already done the leg work, and SS picked up the first hat made, which they took to France, and later picked up the other 5 for Ford. Yet we have Terry's hat which is a dead ringer for Harrisons. Was this one of the 5 brown hats SS picked up? I guess going by the invoices, it would have to be. Which would give Ford 4 brown hats and one gray hat to use in the film. Fedora

These are great thoughts Fedora. In terms of Selleck wearing the fedora in the screen test - I am pretty sure that is a SS touch and not something from Deborah. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I would not think that Deborah would be at the screen test - Who is usually at the screen tests? I did see a photo of Larry Kasdan from that era wearing a grey fedora - perhaps they borrowed his for the screen test or maybe he was there. Also, I had heard Deborah mention that drawing of the costume as being from Kelly Kimball. THis may be something Kelly did under Deborah's supervision but who knows.
best
Canada

BendingOak wrote:

_ wrote:

BendingOak wrote:This is just one reason why I don't know why we were casting her to the side.

Just keep reminding us - you're right...

Thats not what I was doing. I just don't think we should take the " throw the baby out with the baby" point of view when some new info comes along. Most were ready to hang the poor women.

Same way they hung Peter Botwright and I'm still not getting the reason why

One thing is for sure, we can forget the image of her handling the hat all through the film since she was practically fired at the beginning. Her input sounds more "intellectual" than practical. From what I hear Spielberg and Ford in the end chose the hat that ended up in the film (and are responsable for its final look?)... or did I miss some point in _'s summary of the story?

Erri wrote: Same way they hung Peter Botwright and I'm still not getting the reason why

You might want to visit/revisit this thread for that reason, Erri.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45922

Regards! Michaelson

In the past threads concerning Peter I only read profanities from your side Paterson, so it's hard to judge new "discoveries" on the gear story when someone is calling another an alcoholic or worse. This was my impression as a casual visitor of the jacket section.

Besides (slightly off topic but not entirely) Peter has always claimed he worked on the Alien trilogy and for all we know he could have been lying as well as saying the truth (afterall his Aliens jacket replica looked nothing like what we see on screen... that's often the case isn't it?). Well, last year I had the pleasure of two very long conversation with an important member of the costume department who worked on Alien and Aliens... he named Peter Botwright without me asking, he said Petar was the leather manufacturer for the films and created the jackets for them.

So from that moment when Peter claims to have worked for a film production I have no reason to doubt that he did. At least to me he never lied (and my cross-checking his words until now has brought no contraddiction), if then some people interview him with the sole aim of getting self-contraddictory statement on a job as old as 30 years I don't doubt they will end up getting what they want. I can't blame Peter for not remembering everything that he's asked right away. Not a single costume designer I've known could answer without the shadow of a doutb on their own work. Noel Howard even had his foggy moments like anyone else.

This I'm saying, _, because while the details on the hat story sound reliable, disinterested, honest and even fitting from every angle, I cannot say the same about the "discoveries" I've read on the jacket. The thread that Michaelson kindly linked doesn't give me any clue to potential frauds from Peter's side. Unless I've really spent little time in the jacket section lately and became a bit blind towards its background stories (which could easily be the case!)

Huh? You mean the fact he claims to have had the patterns all these years when it's been shown time and time again he did, and does not? The claim of 48 jackets made over 3 films, when we know he did not make any jackets for Temple of Doom, so only 2 films were actually accounted for in the 1996 email? Things like that don't mean anything?

Well, sorry to have posted the link if it didn't help. Apparently it helped a few others who posted in that thread. I thought it may help you if you hadn't read it. My mistake.

In your conversation with the Aliens folks, did anyone say why Peter has removed his Aliens jacket offering from his website?

Come to think of it, why are we talking about jackets in the fedora section anyway?

Back on the rails!

Regards! Michaelson

The person I've been in touch with is now retired, doesn't know how to use a computer and haven't heard of Peter for at least 20 years. So he wouldn't even know that Peter was reproducing Aliens jackets.
Peter removed them from the catalogue because nobody was ordering them anymore although a come-back is being pushed by me.

As for the details you mentioned, I guess I haven't read the rewritten Indygear story of the jacket (I see plenty has changed).

We ended up talking about the jacket because BendingOak was accusing an ostracism against Deborah Nadoolman which reminded me closely of what happened also to Peter Botwright.

Erri wrote: As for the details you mentioned, I guess I haven't read the rewritten Indygear story of the jacket (I see plenty has changed).

I have no doubt more is on the way too!

Regards! Michaelson

when we know he did not make any jackets for Temple of Doom

Michaelson, what happened to the story of Noel Howard bringing Peter in Temple of Doom? Has that detail being ignored? Or am I confusing it with something else?

As far as the fedora goes with more information provided by S.S. via _. I believe because there is inconsistent information coming from Deb claiming one thing then another. Its hard to say what is the truth from someone who can't get their story straight. I think she did have a part in the Fedora, but from what we have so far, not a huge role. The stories that Ford, S.S. and Swales fit together nicely. It is interesting though S.S. says things cooled off, but was it enough cooling to let Deb continue working with Raiders or not. Interesting that he admits that she did sit on the hat. Also looks like it is confirmed that Swales made the dim. cut and ribbon shape. But the actual bash of the hat might be done by Ford himself? Very interesting to say the least.

IndianaChris