Club Obi Wan

Leonard's jacket. "this is IT" he said.

I don't buy the 'Grace's jacket' story(sorry Harrison!)
The Bantu wind scene was the very first scene shot..
I thought the Bantu wind jacket was the jacket that Deb Nadoolman distressed by the pool the night before the first days filming?..where was THAT jacket when they supposedly put Martin Grace's jacket on Ford?..and where did they get the stunt jacket from anyway?-Martin Grace only doubled Harrison in the UK, in the studio!..but there were no stunts in the Bantu wind scene anyway!-why would Martin Grace even be there with his jacket in a scene that required no stunts or action at all? and didn't the stuntguys only recieve their jackets after this scene had been shot anyway?
In fact no scenes filmed in LaRochelle(involving stunts) required a stuntman with a jacket.

Kt Templar wrote:Leonard's jacket. "this is IT" he said.

That one appears to be the Wilson's jacket modified for the truck scene. This has been discussed before.
Not his regular jacket that is 'it'

RCSignals wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:Leonard's jacket. "this is IT" he said.

That one appears to be the Wilson's jacket modified for the truck scene. This has been discussed before.
Not his regular jacket that is 'it'

Wilsons, or Coopers?

Feel free to show pictures of the 'regular jacket'.

Kt Templar wrote:

RCSignals wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:Leonard's jacket. "this is IT" he said.

That one appears to be the Wilson's jacket modified for the truck scene. This has been discussed before.
Not his regular jacket that is 'it'

Wilsons, or Coopers?

Feel free to show pictures of the 'regular jacket'.

"Calling Mr. Templar. Please get out of the pool. You are muddying the water again."

No, this jacket has some features of the Bantu. Throwing in other possibilities that the more blinkered among you don't want to see.

You've just got to explain that stuff a bit better when you post Kt - you've done a few recently when I for one have been quite confused about the relevance of pics you're throwing into a thread. I sort of get what you're saying, but it doesn't look THAT much like a Wilson. However I will stick by my possibly crazy pet theory until someone shows me evidence to the contrary.

Kt Templar wrote:No, this jacket has some features of the Bantu. Throwing in other possibilities that the more blinkered among you don't want to see.

You confused me as well. So you're saying that you're advancing the theory that the "Under the Truck jacket, might also be the Bantu Wind jacket?

There shouldn't be baiting going on from anyone.

Because of the low yoke on the Bantu Wind jacket I think KT’s photos are on topic. Other than the Bantu Wind, Terry Leonard’s jacket is the only jacket I can find that has a low yoke and is on screen.

If that is a Wilson’s jacket in KT's photos, it’s extraordinary that the yoke matches his jacket in other scenes.

The first two are TL and are from the “through the truck window” scene; notice how the sleeve seams line up with the yoke. The second two may be from the same scene, but are definitely not the truck drag, based on the camera angle and the truck grill.







Definitely not the truck drag:


- Mac

I thought it had been pretty well established that the truck drag jacket was a Wilson, modified, as it was thought the cowhide would hold up better to the stunt than the lamb. So this wouldn't be the Bantu jacket unless KT is suggesting the Bantu jacket is a Coopers.

Color me confused.

Kt Templar wrote:No, this jacket has some features of the Bantu. Throwing in other possibilities that the more blinkered among you don't want to see.

how does this play into the photo spread then?

Leonard's jacket. "this is IT" he said.

Someone can look it up, but in a previous post when this jacket came up before, introduced as I recall by Mac and Kt, _ stated the Wilson's jacket had been modified with a seam stitched to create a faux back pleat, and faux or non functional side straps. Look at the photos carefully and you can see fairly plainly that there is no real back pleat on that jacket, it always appears 'open'.

Even from the Raider jacket write up:

truck

The Wilson’s Jackets
During shooting, a Wilson’s jacket was used to outfit Terry Leonard for the truck dragging stunt. The Wilson’s jackets were heavier and had been made from “pre-distressed” leather. An added benefit to the Wilson jacket design for this scene was that there was no detailing to the back, i.e. no action pleat. Because of this it was thought that the jacket would fare better with Leonard being dragged on his back while under the truck. Also, because the Wilson jackets were fitted to Tom Selleck they were a bit trimmer than the Leather Concessionaires jackets and provided a tighter fit to hold body padding and armor in place for Leonard’s extended time under the truck.

TerryLeonard1

Ok, theory here.

The Bantu is a Leather Concessionaires, the first one perhaps.

When they modified the Wilson's Jacket to make the truck one they used the Bantu (or one from the same batch) as the model. Hence the simple 'inside' the [fake] pleat strap configuration. And the fake pleat. It has a small v at the bottom similar to the way the ToD jacket is made. But I'm not speculating on that.

Who modified the Wilson's? Berman's.

The write up states that the Wilson's had no pleats and that the Coopers never got past the cloth pattern stage.

I could buy this theory. Is it possible that the jacket's original design (I'm talking sketches, mock-ups here) had the lower yoke (the Wilson's would have had this too as it was considered early)? The Leather Concessionaires Bantu jacket also has this lower yoke. It's used for that one scene, and, for whatever reason, the second and third batch of jackets have a smaller yoke and one (or two, maybe more) of those become the main Hero jackets.

But this still would rule out the Bantu jacket being the Hawaii jacket Tony copied as his features a higher yoke like the rest of the jackets (not to mention exterior securing for the straps but I can't see that as easy as the yoke placement).

By the way, I edited my earlier post as I inadvertently typed Coopers when I meant Wilson's. I don't want to add to the confusion.

Kt Templar wrote:Ok, theory here.

The Bantu is a Leather Concessionaires, the first one perhaps.

When they modified the Wilson's Jacket to make the truck one they used the Bantu (or one from the same batch) as the model. Hence the simple 'inside' the [fake] pleat strap configuration. And the fake pleat. It has a small v at the bottom similar to the way the ToD jacket is made. But I'm not speculating on that.

Who modified the Wilson's? Berman's.

The write up states that the Wilson's had no pleats and that the Coopers never got past the cloth pattern stage.

It's not a bad theory to add to the stack.

Wings makes a strong claim about their (Cooper I assume) contribution of jackets to Raiders. Something tells me they got farther than just cloth jacket stage. I'd like to know more of the story of it. Also about the jacket Sgt Hack showed as apparently coming from the set. My theory is that it is a Cooper returned to them.

Peter, if you are reading this thread. You are probably the best person to give an answer that isn't speculative.

I'd like to know the story of the Bantu Wind jacket. Was it the first prototype?
Why is it different from the jackets we see most in the movie?

As a side note, in the black and white fake punch pic, I think it is quite clear that the strap has K-box stitching, but am I also seeing D-rings?

I don't think so. I think it creates that effect because the strap has been adjusted tighter in, and the bend in the leather strap has carried around so that it kind of sticks forward like that. My jacket does it a bit too unless I massage them back flatter.

Hi guys,

It's been a while, but I'm popping in to give my two cents. As I pointed out several months ago, the "fake punch" picture and the Bantu Wind jackets differ for two reasons:
-The Bantu Wind has internal straps, the "fake punch" picture does not.
-The Bantu Wind yoke and arm seam appear to line up, the "fake punch" pic does not.

In conclusion, from all the "evidence" the only thing I can deduce is the following:

When Peter claimed to have the "original patterns" back in the 90s when he started making the commercially available jacket, I think -clearly- they were these. The key word here being "original", i.e. the patterns for the Bantu Wind/prototype jacket. Hence the striking similarities between the Bantu Wind jacket and the early Westeds.

The ensuing adjustments that Peter made per fan's input (smaller pockets, external stitching, unaligned seams, etc) mirrored the same adjustments that were made during production.

Bottom line: the large amount of criticsism that the early Westeds (and Peter) recieved for not being "accurate", is unfounded. In fact, they're probably closer to the original jacket "DNA" than subsequent reencarnations.

Anyway, for what it's worth, that's what I think.
Cheers guys!
Sebas

what I cant figure out is whats so special about the bantu jacket?

I mean, we hardly see it a few minutes on screen....

not trying to knock down on peoples interrest in things.. Im just wondering...

Holt, _ said the Bantu Wind was the Martin Grace and was the one used in Hawaii and the one TN copied....the pics just don't add up to the TN......edit at least the pic of Ford sitting in the production photo which seems to be the best pic of Bantu wind....

Indiana Holt wrote:what I cant figure out is whats so special about the bantu jacket?

I mean, we hardly see it a few minutes on screen....

not trying to knock down on peoples interrest in things.. Im just wondering...

I agree.

Also, other than the low yoke and aligned seams I don't see the early offered Westeds as being the same as the Bantu Wind. the pockets look different and the straps look different, to me anyway.

Gotcha.

Like I said, I wasnt trying to knock down on people's interrest. I was just wondering.


I understand were you are comming from.

just not long ago I had a long walk around by the beach. Lovely.

and I started to think about what you said above NB. I have to tell you that it does catch my interrest.

maby I will try to make something out of this one day soon...

need more thinking over a couple glasses with tasty beverage.

Mac wrote:Because of the low yoke on the Bantu Wind jacket I think KT’s photos are on topic. Other than the Bantu Wind, Terry Leonard’s jacket is the only jacket I can find that has a low yoke and is on screen.

If that is a Wilson’s jacket in KT's photos, it’s extraordinary that the yoke matches his jacket in other scenes.

The first two are TL and are from the “through the truck window” scene; notice how the sleeve seams line up with the yoke. The second two may be from the same scene, but are definitely not the truck drag, based on the camera angle and the truck grill.







Definitely not the truck drag:


- Mac

Are not all of those scenes related?

Maybe the Bantu Wind jacket is the Wilson's jacket.

well, dont get your hopes up yet. Im just saying maby.. time will tell

IMO, yes the sleeve seam is lined up with the yolk making the yolk appear lower on the back. The side strap on the backpanel is hidden under the panel. dont know about the placement thou...they look about the same as the screen used one...well at least IMO.

It would mean the prototype was a completely different jacket from all others and barely used in the movie?

IMO the bantu wind jacket worn by Ford is the jacket Terry wears as a stunt jacket. just my opinion, take it or leave, I dont care...



see something familiar?

same yolk height.
sleeve seam lined up.
straps.
collar lays the same.
same pocket size.
same pocket placement.
same tapering.
same overall cut.


The only thing that looks of is the pleat seam, but it may just be the bad quality photo too, I mean we can hardly see the top shoulder seam, we only see were it should be and some distressing....so.....

That's why I put forward that the Bantu Wind jacket may be the Wilson's jacket. We know from the write up and from _ that the jacket worn by TL in the truck scenes was the cowhide Wilson's jacket.
Although, the back pleat of the jacket TL wears in those scenes does look 'faux' as has also been described.

The scenario would make sense if the Bantu Wind jacket and Leonard's was the same. They don't have the prototype yet and have to start filming so they use a jacket they already have for that one scene. Then, they get the prototype (with offset seams, etc.) and it becomes the main hero. Of course, this goes against Nadoolman's statement of distressing the jacket the night before filming was to begin and poor NB is drinking himself into an early grave trying to figure out why the changes between orders.

So many variables with that scenario, but possibly less variables than if the Bantu Wind was the prototype.

Yeah, it all fits, except for that back pleat. BUT: looking closely at the Wilson's Leonard is wearing, it may have more of one than appears due to the dirt, the fact tat it is probably pushed flat from the inside padding, and the low res of the pic obscuring any seam details.

Are there any factors which go against the deduction that they are one and the same?

crismans wrote:The scenario would make sense if the Bantu Wind jacket and Leonard's was the same. They don't have the prototype yet and have to start filming so they use a jacket they already have for that one scene. Then, they get the prototype (with offset seams, etc.) and it becomes the main hero. Of course, this goes against Nadoolman's statement of distressing the jacket the night before filming was to begin and poor NB is drinking himself into an early grave trying to figure out why the changes between orders.

So many variables with that scenario, but possibly less variables than if the Bantu Wind was the prototype.

Sometimes I wonder about the entirety of Nadoolman's story. She probably did distress a jacket, but did she really get that same jacket to the set on time for filming?
Seems like her distressing the jacket is her only contribution to it as costume designer, which would explain her emphasising that part so much.
For all the jackets used in the movie and all the different jackets apparently worn by Ford, trading off with stunt men etc, that contribution becomes less significant unless she distressed every one of the jackets.

Those small pockets look a lot like Cooper A2 pockets

RCSignals wrote:Those small pockets look a lot like Cooper A2 pockets

No it has the same pockets B&N used when they made the TOD jacket.

Do you have your ToD jacket yet Dutch? If so take a good look at those pockets. Very much smaller, although the Cooper A2 pockets are not too much larger.

neutronbomb wrote:Yes it is!!!!!!

Look at the first two, side by side jackets below. It is an exact match with all the wrinkles/creases. The arm wrinkles around the elbow and the forearm, the upper arm, the crease/wrinkle running from the arm pit up to the yoke, The matching deep, deep creases in the side panel, and the matching wrinkle in the collar as it sits near the shoulder seam running to the neck. Cowhide jacket.......

It is quite compelling. We just need more shots to match up. I'll look through my Making Of book tonight.

Dutch_jones wrote:

RCSignals wrote:Those small pockets look a lot like Cooper A2 pockets

No it has the same pockets B&N used when they made the TOD jacket.

I thought Coopers made the ToD, not B&N - are you in fact Peter in disguise...

Show me pictures of this "coopers" jacket. No i am not I'm someone who prefers logic over advertising

Don't feed the Trolls people. Let's stay on topic - this is a huge thing if it's right!

We need to gather pics so we can do a comparison properly.

Yojimbo Jones wrote:Don't feed the Trolls people. Let's stay on topic - this is a huge thing if it's right!

We need to gather pics so we can do a comparison properly.

We need some better photos for sure

Thing is..... who says the jacket arrived like this? Maybe the costume designer or departement made some changes for some reason.

Dutch_jones wrote:Thing is..... who says the jacket arrived like this? Maybe the costume designer or departement made some changes for some reason.

That's part of what we're examining, Dutch.

I've just had a look through "The complete making of..." book. No joy re Bantu Wind / Wilson apart from tiny versions of these same shots.

(Though if anyone needs shots of a VERY SHORT BACK on a raven bar jacket or a Ford truck-dragging shot with a pocket flap identical to a Nowak, just holler!)

Now back to the search at hand...

What would really help identify the Bantu as the Leonard Truck Drag is the construction of the bottom of the action pleat.

The under the truck jacket has a small 1 inch V like the ToD jacket. From the Bantu picture it is not clear if it has the full open Raiders V or the ToD style.

Enough, the main one Ford is wearing in the grille pulling shot is not he same. It has a wide open Raiders V a the the bottom of the real action pleat.

Holt, thoughts?

Note the distance of the pockets from the bottom:



Same distance from the bottom as this one:




How does it compare with the Bantu jacket?



Here’s the action pleat:



Click to enlarge thumbnails.

- Mac

Terry has the same amount of padding there that harrison has in the Ravenbar Scenes, makes him almost look like a Hunchback.

Mac wrote:Note the distance of the pockets from the bottom:

How does it compare with the Bantu jacket?

Dutch_jones wrote:Terry has the same amount of padding there that harrison has in the Ravenbar Scenes, makes him almost look like a Hunchback.

Dutch, I believe you've utterly failed to grasp the heart of the issue at hand.



- Mac

Mac;

same pocket and same distance from the bottom of the jacket. a perfect match.