Shirts analysis/Vendors analysis (encouragement not a rant)

[Jonesy Jr.]

Hi friends

I don't want to insult or put a bad light on any Indy shirt vendors/makers out there as in this post I will mention vendors by brand name. The reason for this post is that it's time that we get screen accurate shirts available to us. I'm sure a lot of Indy fans aren't as much accuracy freaks like myself and are satisfied with one fit all movies shirt but it's those small details that make the outfit in the end look perfect.

Let's break it down. I will focus on movie shirts since Indy movies are more popular. There are five movies and in each Indy wears a different shirt.

Raiders of the lost Ark shirt:
- 6 buttons
- 4th button from top to bottom is placed in line where bottom of pockets are
- sleeves are stitched to shoulders with single stitch/seam
- long shoulder straps that reach over front pleats
- front pleats go all the way under pockets and at bottom of pockets, pockets are stitched over them
- shirt bottom is more curved and simply finished (I don't know correct expression for this type of fabric finishing)
- squared cuffs

Original Raiders shirt (source: https://propstoreauction.com/lot-detail ... lot/118836):

Temple of Doom shirt:
- 7 buttons
- buttons are more darker compared to Raiders buttons
- 4th button from top to bottom is placed in middle of the pockets
- sleeves are stitched to shoulders with double stitch/seam (as seen on most shirts today)
- shoulder straps reach front pleats
- front pleats go all the way under pockets and at bottom of pockets, pockets are stitched over them
- shirt bottom is shaped very similar or even the same as Raiders shirt but I could not discover if it's finished the same way as Raiders shirt is but probably is not
- squared cuffs

Temple of Doom shirt from documentary Timeless Heroes: Indiana Jones & Harrison Ford (picture sent to me by Azuma when ordering ToD shirt):

Last Crusade shirt:
- 7 buttons
- buttons are darker
- 4th button from top to bottom is placed in middle of the pockets
- sleeves are stitched to shoulders with double stitch/seam (as seen on most shirts today)
- shoulder straps just reach front pleats
- front pleats go over pockets and at bottom of pockets, pockets are not stitched over pleats
- shirt bottom is shaped very similar or even the same as Raiders shirt but is finished normally
- squared cuffs

Original Last Crusade shirt (source: https://propstoreauction.com/lot-detail ... lot/126237):

Kingdom of the Crystal Skull shirt:
- same as Last Crusade shirt but its buttons are lighter in color
- not sure how its bottom is curved or finished

Kingdom of the Crystal Skull shirt (source: https://indygear.net/the-indiana-jones-shirt/):

Dial of Destiny 1944 shirt:

- I'm 98% sure it's exactly the same design shirt as Raiders shirt
- not sure about bottom though

Dial of Destiny 1944 shirt (made from pictures from: https://indygear.net/the-indiana-jones-shirt/):

Dial of Destiny 1969 shirt:

- basically the same or very, very similar design as Raiders but without front pleats

- 6 buttons (maybe 7 but even 6th is where belt is)
- 4th button from top to bottom is placed in line where bottom of pockets are
- long shoulder straps
- squared cuffs
- bottom of shirt is not visible so I'm not sure how it's shaped

Dial of Destiny 1969 shirt (made from pictures from: https://indygear.net/the-indiana-jones-shirt/):

Let's review shirts on the market for us

Wested shirt:

- shoulder straps are from Raiders
- shoulder sleeve seams are from ToD/LC/KotCS
- front pleats are from Raiders/ToD
- button placement is from Raiders but number of buttons is incorrect
- pockets are too large


Wested Dial of Destiny 1969 shirt:

Pros:
- right shoulder straps length

Cons:
- incorrect number of buttons
- incorrect placement of buttons
- too large pockets
- incorrect shoulder seams

CONCLUSION: their shirts are not accurate to any movie


Magnoli:

- shoulder straps can be chosen in either ToD or LC/KotCS length but not in Raiders length
- button placement is from Raiders
- front pleats can be chosen in either ToD/Raiders style or LC/KotCS style
- shoulder seams are from ToD/LC/KotCS
- pockets are correct

Magnoli Dial of Destiny 1969 shirt:

Pros:
- right button placement
- correct pockets size
- shoulders straps might be too short since they look the same length when pleats are on the shirt but it's hard to tell without pleats so I will put this to pros

Cons:
- incorrect shoulder seams

CONCLUSION: their shirts are not screen accurate. DoD shirt will be if they change shoulder seams.


What Price Glory shirt:
- shoulder straps are from ToD
- shoulder sleeve seams are from ToD/LC/KotCS
- front pleats are from Raiders/ToD
- button placement is from Raiders but number of buttons is incorrect
- pockets are too large

CONCLUSION: their shirt is not accurate to any movie


Todd's Costumes shirt:

Their shirt is faithfully based on Raiders shirt

- correct shoulder straps length
- correct shoulder seam
- correct button placement
- correct number of buttons
- correct front pleats that go under pockets
- correct shape of bottom of shirt and correct finish of bottom

Just compare original from prop auction (https://propstoreauction.com/lot-detail ... lot/118836) to Todd's (https://www.toddscostumes.com/costumes/ ... yle-shirt/) and you will notice all this

CONCLUSION: their shirt is screen accurate for Raiders


Karolian Dry Goods shirt

First, their previous runs of Streets of Cairo shirt, Skull and Doom adventure shirt, Berlin adventure shirt were not screen accurate.
BUT now they offer us Made to order Adventure shirt, where we can choose style from each movie. Based on their description of each style available I can say that they started to pay attention to details and know what they are doing since I noticed that their descriptions of each style is very accurate.

CONCLUSION: I cannot make conclusions in this case because I don't have pictures of finished shirts of each available style. I already noticed improvements in their attention to details so I'm sure that they are on the right path. If anyone have already ordered Made to measure Adventure shirts from from Karolian Dry Goods and are willing to post it's picture to help analysis, feel free to post them.

This is end of my long post. Again, I don't mean to insult any of vendors with this analysis, I just want attention to details.

Thank you for reading. I hope you enjoyed and learned something interesting.

[fifthchamber]

Ten or so years ago? More maybe? I remember Azuma came out with a print list with all these details (as close as we could see, at that point, I don't think we'd gotten the blu ray by then) listed and matched as well as he could to the shirts he was then making. I know his Raiders is the closest I've used, his Temple is spot on too, I believe and his Crusade I think is off only on the pocket base line seam over the pleat/ribbon..(We'd not seen the Propstore item I think!).. I know his are no longer on offer direct anymore, but I also think it might be a disservice to ignore all the work that he put in to get the shirts closer to what we see on film, so I wanted to add that onto the (great!) post above....Azuma for Raiders, if you can buy one secondhand.

Great post. Good to have it all in one location too.

[IJJTM]

I think Azuma got the closest for all of them, even CS.

[fifthchamber]

I think Azuma got the closest for all of them, even CS.

Yeah, I just didn't have one on hand to double check to make the statement, but I'd be sure that Azuma had nailed it, that's what he DOES...I just like to comment from positions I'm certain of here, and elsewhere..

[Jonesy Jr.]

Ten or so years ago? More maybe? I remember Azuma came out with a print list with all these details (as close as we could see, at that point, I don't think we'd gotten the blu ray by then) listed and matched as well as he could to the shirts he was then making. I know his Raiders is the closest I've used, his Temple is spot on too, I believe and his Crusade I think is off only on the pocket base line seam over the pleat/ribbon..(We'd not seen the Propstore item I think!).. I know his are no longer on offer direct anymore, but I also think it might be a disservice to ignore all the work that he put in to get the shirts closer to what we see on film, so I wanted to add that onto the (great!) post above....Azuma for Raiders, if you can buy one secondhand.

Great post. Good to have it all in one location too.

I think Azuma got the closest for all of them, even CS.

I agree about Azuma being the best. Even customer experience with him was great.
Too bad that he does not make shirts anymore. I hope that he will return one day.

[KarolianDryGoods]

Respectfully, I want to comment on this thread.

I worked extraordinary hard to get the details on my shirts as close *as is reasonably possible* on my shirts for production. Things like the hem length and style are done for production needs.

In the case of the Cairos, I ran into the same issue on my first runs as Todd's currently has - accurately replicating the number of buttons and placement, along with highest part of the hem (around the same position as the transition of the sleeve and cuff) is far too short for most people's comfort, and the shirt looks off tucked in because the two front panels start to fold out. So I opted on subsequent runs to have an additional button.

My DoD 69 shirt in particular is very accurate. I even gambled on the style of sleeve placket, collar stand height, and epaulet shape on this design and (thankfully) ended up being correct. The color, button shape and color are also pretty darn good for designing these during the prerelease stage of the film.

I can't disclose who, but someone took my shirts to meet screen used items and I am *very* confident in the color on the new Temple run. I'm labeling them as Skull and Temple, though the button color on the Skulls are lighter, and the epaulets are slightly shorter.

This next part is a little inside baseball, but I want folks to know how some of this stuff works and where our hands get tied on designs. Really, because it affects all vendors currently producing shirts and why there are a lot of differences between designs across vendors - not that I am speaking for them!

The issue with button placement is in pattern grading across 5+ sizes in production. If the buttons are placed in the same orientation across sizes, the scale/ratio won't look right - especially on larger sizes. Things start to migrate lower and lower on the shirt. It's tricky because there are relationships between the armhole positions, chest size, and length per size. Even things like larger sizes possibly requiring larger pockets to scale the look will affect things. In other words, you'd have to choose one size to really be correct, and the others are a tile puzzle to get to fit relative to that chosen size.

The stitching on the side seams and armholes can also be dependent on the type of machines available to manufacture. The Raiders style with no top stitch are usually done in a straight stitch machine (we see this on the side seams as well). Things like the shoulder and side seam on the subsequent shirts are typically done with a "feld seam" machine which operates very differently - look at your jeans and see the inseam side is different than the outside seam for an example of these types of stitches. I'd imagine this is the result of the equipment Western had vs BN.


When producing items in a production setting, things like pattern grading and the front pleats going over the pockets and continuing to the hem add a lot of man hours. It's the longest individual step in the construction. It is hard for any production line to do because it adds several steps. Azuma has been able to achieve this, but every facility I have contacted over the years has refused because of the complications.

Things also get hinky with the Raiders uneven pockets and uneven epaulets, the Crusade asymmetrical epaulets placement, etc. designs need to be consistent for production.

Thats all to say that a lot of these details are greatly affected by the size requirements and the machinery available as well as man hours required.

In regard to the made to order shirts, that helps fill these gaps between what is possible in a production setting. Such as pocket/button placement, hem length, buttons (it's my belief a few of the recent auctioned shirts have had alterations made) placket style, fabric color, etc.

I am hoping to start splitting production between my partners in the US and my own home shop - using my shop for the next run of Cairos - allowing much smaller numbers and potential to include more details that need to be altered/omitted for larger scales.

Again, all said respectfully. I just want folks to know why things vary across vendors and some things can or can't be accomplished in a production setting. If it were easy, we all do it!

[IJJTM]

That was very informative and I appreciate you going into detail for all of us. I can’t wait to see all the other styles of your hand made shirts.

[fifthchamber]

Adam, you can always comment on posts like this mate! It's great to have an "inside" understanding of exactly what the issues are! And yeah, no one should feel knocked back by this post, I think! It's about getting all of us the very best accuracy we can! And honestly, Karolian Goods is doing exactly that....I have your DoD, and although I'm not a huge fan of the fabric used on my one (It feels like it's not cotton, but a plastic mix), I'm aware you changed to a different kind and it's fixed now too...The quality is great! So, keep doing THAT!

And thanks for commenting!

[Indiana Croft]

My only comment is Azuma was very spot on.
You can analyze a shirt or pants or hat or jacket and like Adam mentioned, it changes based on size.
In the end if the vendor gets it so close that who can say about accuracy.

But Azuma was one of the best.
I say this as I have a closet full of them.

Croft

[Indiana Jeff]

Indeed, Adam, thanks for the detailed explanation.

Whereas absolute screen accuracy is commonly the goal, it is rarely truly achievable. As Adam said, trying to produce shirts for the masses (as opposed to mass produced) creates challenges when you take into account the different sizes. Same conversations have been had about fedora dimensions (head size vs crown height vs brim width) and with jackets across different sizes. As Adam explained, compromises need to be made in the production process.

I grew up in the era of generic safari shirts and khaki pants. We have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to high quality Indy shirts. As Croft says, shirts that hold up to every day wear, not just costuming.

I've never been a stitch counter (not that there's anything wrong with that) and I know that I don't have the build of Harrison Ford so true screen accuracy is not achievable for me.

And all of this is before we get into color matching. Filming color vs. seen on screen color.

A term that was coined by a member years ago was "screen reminiscent." It's definitely an Indy shirt even if every button isn't placed in the exact place or the epaulet is 1/4 inch too long or short.

To paraphrase: "The search for screen accuracy is the search for the divine in all of us."


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Jonesy Jr.]

Respectfully, I want to comment on this thread.

I worked extraordinary hard to get the details on my shirts as close *as is reasonably possible* on my shirts for production. Things like the hem length and style are done for production needs.

In the case of the Cairos, I ran into the same issue on my first runs as Todd's currently has - accurately replicating the number of buttons and placement, along with highest part of the hem (around the same position as the transition of the sleeve and cuff) is far too short for most people's comfort, and the shirt looks off tucked in because the two front panels start to fold out. So I opted on subsequent runs to have an additional button.

My DoD 69 shirt in particular is very accurate. I even gambled on the style of sleeve placket, collar stand height, and epaulet shape on this design and (thankfully) ended up being correct. The color, button shape and color are also pretty darn good for designing these during the prerelease stage of the film.

I can't disclose who, but someone took my shirts to meet screen used items and I am *very* confident in the color on the new Temple run. I'm labeling them as Skull and Temple, though the button color on the Skulls are lighter, and the epaulets are slightly shorter.

This next part is a little inside baseball, but I want folks to know how some of this stuff works and where our hands get tied on designs. Really, because it affects all vendors currently producing shirts and why there are a lot of differences between designs across vendors - not that I am speaking for them!

The issue with button placement is in pattern grading across 5+ sizes in production. If the buttons are placed in the same orientation across sizes, the scale/ratio won't look right - especially on larger sizes. Things start to migrate lower and lower on the shirt. It's tricky because there are relationships between the armhole positions, chest size, and length per size. Even things like larger sizes possibly requiring larger pockets to scale the look will affect things. In other words, you'd have to choose one size to really be correct, and the others are a tile puzzle to get to fit relative to that chosen size.

The stitching on the side seams and armholes can also be dependent on the type of machines available to manufacture. The Raiders style with no top stitch are usually done in a straight stitch machine (we see this on the side seams as well). Things like the shoulder and side seam on the subsequent shirts are typically done with a "feld seam" machine which operates very differently - look at your jeans and see the inseam side is different than the outside seam for an example of these types of stitches. I'd imagine this is the result of the equipment Western had vs BN.


When producing items in a production setting, things like pattern grading and the front pleats going over the pockets and continuing to the hem add a lot of man hours. It's the longest individual step in the construction. It is hard for any production line to do because it adds several steps. Azuma has been able to achieve this, but every facility I have contacted over the years has refused because of the complications.

Things also get hinky with the Raiders uneven pockets and uneven epaulets, the Crusade asymmetrical epaulets placement, etc. designs need to be consistent for production.

Thats all to say that a lot of these details are greatly affected by the size requirements and the machinery available as well as man hours required.

In regard to the made to order shirts, that helps fill these gaps between what is possible in a production setting. Such as pocket/button placement, hem length, buttons (it's my belief a few of the recent auctioned shirts have had alterations made) placket style, fabric color, etc.

I am hoping to start splitting production between my partners in the US and my own home shop - using my shop for the next run of Cairos - allowing much smaller numbers and potential to include more details that need to be altered/omitted for larger scales.

Again, all said respectfully. I just want folks to know why things vary across vendors and some things can or can't be accomplished in a production setting. If it were easy, we all do it!

Everyone is welcome to comment.
Sizing really is tricky for accuracy. This is similar to what is happening to Wested Indy jackets (maybe they fixed this now ?). I have read posts about jackets not looking right on everyone until customers found out that jacket with Fords proportions looks different on someone with different body proportions. To fix proportions problem one can only do to calculate proportions for each individual but of course this takes a lot more work and costs more.

It's great to hear from you. I'm looking forward to see how your made to measure shirts are doing. Details you listed for each shirt are accurate .

[Howard Weinstein]

Hey, everyone -- thanks for this fascinating commentary and boatload of detailed info on the various shirts -- and the trials and tribulations of actually producing shirts in the real world for us to buy at not-too-crazy prices. I'm grateful for all the choices we have.