When/how was the Raiders Turn Discovered?

[Western New York Indy]

Hi!

I have a bit of a history question. For someone who is newer to the Indygear game, (only been doing this for about 5 years) it seems that as long as I have been around, the Raiders Turn has been a generally accepted explanation as to some of the quirks of the Raiders brim. However, I have gone back on this forum and seen that there was a time when it was a new theory or more speculation, but can't seem to uncover the story of how it was discovered. It seems like a pretty mainstream concept now, as there are countless of videos on Youtube made by "average Joes" who reference the Raiders turn, and most Indy hatters offer the option- Herbert Johnson themselves even talk about it on their website and Youtube channel.

I'm fascinated by the concept of a time before "The Turn" was known, since it seems to have worked its way into the very fabric of the Indiana Jones community as a factual detail of the Raiders Fedora. It seems as though most everyone knows about The Turn, even if not everyone chooses to Turn their hat or likes the look of a Turned fedora. So how did we get to where we are? I'm very interested in learning a bit more of the backstory on this.

Thanks

[Indy Magnoli]

I'm not 100% sure where it started or who was the "first", but 3thoubucks was definitely one of the main early "conspiracy theorists" regarding the possible explanations for the Raiders fedora's unique look.

[Mike]

Yeah, I'm not sure if 'discovered' is the right term or not. Maybe more like 'theorized' but it did take on a life of it's own and become accepted as fact. I can get the same kind of swoop with a too-tight hat (my original HJ shrunk, or my head expanded—whichever side you want to fall on with that) and got the same look. The bow coming a bit forward though tends to lend a bit of credence.

I'm of the mind though that it wasn't purposefully done, but probably how the hat turned out after being beaten to death on location. I tend to think that's just how it started to form on Ford's head given the heat/sweat/beating it went through in the desert climates.

[Jonathan Jones]

Wasn't it around 2008 when Desi came forward with the screen-used Raiders hat that a lot of details like the turn, folded sweatband, brim measurements, ribbon characteristics, etc were confirmed?

[Western New York Indy]

Yeah, I'm not sure if 'discovered' is the right term or not. Maybe more like 'theorized' but it did take on a life of it's own and become accepted as fact. I can get the same kind of swoop with a too-tight hat (my original HJ shrunk, or my head expanded—whichever side you want to fall on with that) and got the same look. The bow coming a bit forward though tends to lend a bit of credence.

I'm of the mind though that it wasn't purposefully done, but probably how the hat turned out after being beaten to death on location. I tend to think that's just how it started to form on Ford's head given the heat/sweat/beating it went through in the desert climates.

Ah yes, I guess that probably is the better word. I guess by "discovered" I just meant when was the theory first being discussed.

I think it makes sense that the turn was accidental, since they were beating the living daylights out of it and could've easily re-bashed it off center. I think it might be somewhat possible that if it were intentional, it was used to keep the hat on Ford's head better, but then that raises the question of why they didn't use this technique in any of the other movies. So I think I could go either way, but probably agree with you that it was most likely an unintentional effect of the hat being beat up.

[Western New York Indy]

I'm not 100% sure where it started or who was the "first", but 3thoubucks was definitely one of the main early "conspiracy theorists" regarding the possible explanations for the Raiders fedora's unique look.

Thanks for the input! I have seen some of 3thoubucks' postings on different aspects of the Raiders Fedora, seems like some really interesting theorizing.

[Michaelson]

Adam Rundquist was the first I recall discovering the turn as well as the fact it was soft felt, not the hard finish we were all used to. He posted photo after photo proving his points.

Regards! Michaelson

[Western New York Indy]

Adam Rundquist was the first I recall discovering the turn as well as the fact it was soft felt, not the hard finish we were all used to. He posted photo after photo proving his points.

Regards! Michaelson

Thanks so much for your input!!
Before that, was the Raiders hat thought to be made out of a different weight of felt, or just more stiffened dress felt? Also, are any of those posts still able to be accessed? I'd love to read through some of them.

Thanks!

-WNY Indy

[Michaelson]

Check out posts by Rundquist. It’s all back there in his 35 pages of posts.

Regards! M

[Western New York Indy]

Check out posts by Rundquist. It’s all back there in his 35 pages of posts.

Regards! M

I've been scrolling through the aforementioned 35 pages of posts. Fascinating stuff!

-WNY Indy

[3thoubucks]

I just went through all Rundquist's posts. He doesn't mention the turn until 2009. I did the initial research on the turn, late 2002, early 2003. I coined the terms "Riaders Turn" and "TheTurn" but those posts got hacked out of existence. Rundquist had a problem with my turn theory. We had a showdown where he said it was "tilted" and I said no, it was turned. I'll Never forget it. He never accepted the turn was real. In 2009 he said it wasn't turned, it was crooked. Here's the real history. https://youtu.be/n6GsMiq-X_I?si=Fh-G8fs1WAp_bMrJ. l might be older than Michaelson. The internet was a serious tool in his world, academia, and then I got a cheap computer and free Internet in 1998 and I had no internet manners.

[Western New York Indy]

I just went through all Rundquist's posts. He doesn't mention the turn until 2009. I did the initial research on the turn, late 2002, early 2003. I coined the terms "Riaders Turn" and "TheTurn" but those posts got hacked out of existence. Rundquist had a problem with my turn theory. We had a showdown where he said it was "tilted" and I said no, it was turned. I'll Never forget it. He never accepted the turn was real. In 2009 he said it wasn't turned, it was crooked. Here's the real history. https://youtu.be/n6GsMiq-X_I?si=Fh-G8fs1WAp_bMrJ. l might be older than Michaelson. The internet was a serious tool in his world, academia, and then I got a cheap computer and free Internet in 1998 and I had no internet manners.

I just watched the video. The depth of research you've done is really impressive!!! It's fascinating how all the little details and weird quirks of the Raiders hat all work together to give that iconic shape. It's too bad that your early posts about the turn were lost through hacking. I'd love to be able to go back in time and read those, but oh well.

Thanks!

-WNY Indy

[Michaelson]

l might be older than Michaelson. The internet was a serious tool in his world, academia, and then I got a cheap computer and free Internet in 1998 and I had no internet manners.

Don’t know about that. I retired from a career as an industrial/educational videographer after 50 years back in 2022, 30 years in academia, 20 with the government, and didn’t have access to internet until 1996, my career starting back in the early 70’s after college. I’ve been around a while too.

I don’t recall any of your debates with Rundquist, and I would have liked to read them too.

Regards! M

[3thoubucks]

I graduated h.s. in '71, so you're probably a bit older.

Cheers! 3thou

[Michaelson]

Not by much.

Let’s just say, if we had gone to the same school, we could have probably shared some classes.

Regards! M

[whiskyman]

I remember the years of debate about the reasons for the Raiders hat's peculiarities- I always found 3thoubucks' theories, experiments and findings extremely interesting -and was grateful for the time, effort and money he poured into his obsession. However, I never could get on board with the telescope crown idea - that just seemed too far-fetched. Now - having watched the video, it seems a great deal more plausible - likely, even - that it did at the time. Consider my interest re-activated!!!

[Western New York Indy]

I remember the years of debate about the reasons for the Raiders hat's peculiarities- I always found 3thoubucks' theories, experiments and findings extremely interesting -and was grateful for the time, effort and money he poured into his obsession. However, I never could get on board with the telescope crown idea - that just seemed too far-fetched. Now - having watched the video, it seems a great deal more plausible - likely, even - that it did at the time. Consider my interest re-activated!!!

I would've loved to have been there for all those debates. The theories about the Raiders hat are so interesting... so many precise elements that come together. I'm so grateful for all the people who have put time and effort into this hobby to amass the incredible amount of knowledge we now have about Indy's costume.

The telescope crown idea is interesting. I have noticed in a few screenshots from the other movies there are parts where the hat appears to have a telescope-like bash. However it's mainly when the hat is being roughly handled or has gotten wet, so in those cases maybe it is just Ford's head pushing on the crease and the felt forming to the top of his head. But I certainly can't 100% rule out that it's possible the hat in Raiders had, at one point, a telescope crown. Especially since I bet they fooled around with the bash a lot and it took on a lot of forms through weathering and getting crushed and beat up. So I'm open to the idea, I don't know if I am fully a "true believer " in the telescope crown theory, but I am open to it as a possibility.

-WNY Indy