Is Herbert Johnson the holy grail of indy fedoras now?

[IJJTM]

What color is your SOC?

Which one?


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The Advintage.

[The Aviator]

This is more like it.





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Ah that ***** that it was a disappointment, to be fair I can see why…Although nice work on the re-bash.

I have a beaver HJ that went on the block last Friday, which I’m looking forward to. The anniversary hat was too rich for my blood as a rabbit hat. There are also some really spot on SOC options out there.

Cheers

Gerry

[Chose Poorly]

Helpful feedback all around. Coolmeister, your 40th looked way more like an idol grab shape than a SoC when it arrived. But seeing it next to your Advintage really shows how it’s clearly not a SA hat, but HJ doesn’t really have a reputation for making SA hats. Just very nice ones.

I just acquired an unworn Adventurebilt Legacy Raiders hat and after a lot of belly aching over how different it is than my S&J hat, I’ve kind of fallen in love with it. I would be very curious to compare John’s legacy rabbit felt to the new HJ rabbit felts, because the ABL is VERY thin and floppy, but not in a way that im concerned compromises it structurally. It holds its shape, at least as much as an Indy hat should. When I can find the time, I’ll post some pics over in the Penman Post ‘Em Up thread.

I still have the HJ on order in beaver but after picking up this ABL, I’m pretty sure im changing that to a seaplane hat of some sort. I want to talk to HJ about their grey beaver felts to see if they have more than just the standard seaplane color on the site.

[thecoolmiester]

Helpful feedback all around. Coolmeister, your 40th looked way more like an idol grab shape than a SoC when it arrived. But seeing it next to your Advintage really shows how it’s clearly not a SA hat, but HJ doesn’t really have a reputation for making SA hats. Just very nice ones.

I just acquired an unworn Adventurebilt Legacy Raiders hat and after a lot of belly aching over how different it is than my S&J hat, I’ve kind of fallen in love with it. I would be very curious to compare John’s legacy rabbit felt to the new HJ rabbit felts, because the ABL is VERY thin and floppy, but not in a way that im concerned compromises it structurally. It holds its shape, at least as much as an Indy hat should. When I can find the time, I’ll post some pics over in the Penman Post ‘Em Up thread.

I still have the HJ on order in beaver but after picking up this ABL, I’m pretty sure im changing that to a seaplane hat of some sort. I want to talk to HJ about their grey beaver felts to see if they have more than just the standard seaplane color on the site.

That is true haha I’m not upset I got it for the record. I just think a standard HJ in the least is just as good.
I will say though the hat had 0 turn. It was weird. I had to look like 3 times because I was wondering if I was seeing correctly on the inside, but I absolutely love the hat now after rehashing it. I’d even say it’s the best rabbit hat I own. I do like that it’s very thin although the felt is very fine and dense which is nice.


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[Chose Poorly]

Helpful feedback all around. Coolmeister, your 40th looked way more like an idol grab shape than a SoC when it arrived. But seeing it next to your Advintage really shows how it’s clearly not a SA hat, but HJ doesn’t really have a reputation for making SA hats. Just very nice ones.

I just acquired an unworn Adventurebilt Legacy Raiders hat and after a lot of belly aching over how different it is than my S&J hat, I’ve kind of fallen in love with it. I would be very curious to compare John’s legacy rabbit felt to the new HJ rabbit felts, because the ABL is VERY thin and floppy, but not in a way that im concerned compromises it structurally. It holds its shape, at least as much as an Indy hat should. When I can find the time, I’ll post some pics over in the Penman Post ‘Em Up thread.

I still have the HJ on order in beaver but after picking up this ABL, I’m pretty sure im changing that to a seaplane hat of some sort. I want to talk to HJ about their grey beaver felts to see if they have more than just the standard seaplane color on the site.

That is true haha I’m not upset I got it for the record. I just think a standard HJ in the least is just as good.
I will say though the hat had 0 turn. It was weird. I had to look like 3 times because I was wondering if I was seeing correctly on the inside, but I absolutely love the hat now after rehashing it. I’d even say it’s the best rabbit hat I own. I do like that it’s very thin although the felt is very fine and dense which is nice.

I'll have to find an opportunity to compare the ABL Raiders and a newer HJ rabbit. I'm really curious how the two differ in color and felt quality. I posted some pics over in the Penman Post 'Em Up thread if anyone hasn't seen them yet.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33624&start=3650


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[Hedji]

Thanks for the honest and fair review. You're braver than I'd be to put the steam to a limited edition item, but then again, if you're that unhappy...

I find it astonishing to hear it had not turn in it.

And you say the pinch was heavily starched... did that come out pretty well with the steam, and then with your turn? It looks like it did in the pics.

[thecoolmiester]

Thanks for the honest and fair review. You're braver than I'd be to put the steam to a limited edition item, but then again, if you're that unhappy...

I find it astonishing to hear it had not turn in it.

And you say the pinch was heavily starched... did that come out pretty well with the steam, and then with your turn? It looks like it did in the pics.

Yeah I had to redo it completely as it didn’t even resemble an Indy hat to me at all haha
What’s weird is it had “reverse turn” so the ribbon was actually slightly further away from my forehead. Really sloppy, but thankfully the quality of the hat is legit amazing. Not worth $750 but amazing nonetheless.

I was surprised but the pinch came right out and is not visible in my complete rebash.
I imagine they had to starch the pinch a bit to hold the shape since it’s a very verrryy thin rabbit felt hat.

Here are some close ups of the pinch so you can see.








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[tubasthebest]

thecoolmiester, I'm glad to hear that you finally got your 40th anniversary order! I think you did a fantastic job at redoing the bash and the end result looks great! I agree that the thin rabbit fur felt used is really great quality. I can also echo that the pinch is starched a heavy amount on this hat!

While I would say I am not at all disappointed with my order, I agree with your conclusions. I think this 40th anniversary package is not worth if for almost everyone.

If you really want a HJ hat, order it at their normal prices and you can communicate with them on every aspects of the hat you would like them to capture, and even which scene to model it after. This includes the SoC scene, which is in no way exclusive to the 40th anniversary order. If you want a HJ SoC, order the regular hat and let them know you want a SoC. If you order the 40th anniversary hat, you don't really get much input as the scene and aspects of the hat were decided by HJ ahead of time.

If you want the best SoC hat you can get, I agree with thecoolmiester that you should go with AdVintage. All the photos I have scene from their SoC nail every aspect of that hat.

I would say ONLY get the 40th anniversary package if you really like limited edition items, or you really like the other things outside of the hat: the box, keychain, IJ initials, and coupon. If none of this interests you enough to pay a premium, absolutely don't get this.

My HJ 40th SoC hat is still a prized possession of mine. Here is a more recent photo after some good use. My hat came with the turn out of the box, no issue there for me. I would say that to my eyes the hat has the wonkiness of the SoC brim out of the box, but none of the crown wonkiness. I, for one, don't mind the more tame crown of the hat that I got.

[thecoolmiester]

thecoolmiester, I'm glad to hear that you finally got your 40th anniversary order! I think you did a fantastic job at redoing the bash and the end result looks great! I agree that the thin rabbit fur felt used is really great quality. I can also echo that the pinch is starched a heavy amount on this hat!

While I would say I am not at all disappointed with my order, I agree with your conclusions. I think this 40th anniversary package is not worth if for almost everyone.

If you really want a HJ hat, order it at their normal prices and you can communicate with them on every aspects of the hat you would like them to capture, and even which scene to model it after. This includes the SoC scene, which is in no way exclusive to the 40th anniversary order. If you want a HJ SoC, order the regular hat and let them know you want a SoC. If you order the 40th anniversary hat, you don't really get much input as the scene and aspects of the hat were decided by HJ ahead of time.

If you want the best SoC hat you can get, I agree with thecoolmiester that you should go with AdVintage. All the photos I have scene from their SoC nail every aspect of that hat.

I would say ONLY get the 40th anniversary package if you really like limited edition items, or you really like the other things outside of the hat: the box, keychain, IJ initials, and coupon. If none of this interests you enough to pay a premium, absolutely don't get this.

My HJ 40th SoC hat is still a prized possession of mine. Here is a more recent photo after some good use. My hat came with the turn out of the box, no issue there for me. I would say that to my eyes the hat has the wonkiness of the SoC brim out of the box, but none of the crown wonkiness. I, for one, don't mind the more tame crown of the hat that I got.

Wow Your hat came out great!
its like a night and day difference out of box for sure haha
Not sure what happened to my bash, maybe they rushed it, but all is good

After a couple days with my new bash in the hat it’s definitely my favorite clean Indy hat since I think it nails the weight and thinness of the hat in the movie and certainly the darker, richer color seen in the opening scenes of raiders.


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[thecoolmiester]

What color is your SOC?

Which one?


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The Advintage.

It’s sable.
Regular middle sable


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[Hobbit Fedora]

Just curious how durable Herbert Johnson’s current rabbit felt is? As much as I would want their beaver felt I just can’t spend that much.

[IJJTM]

According to a representative at the shop yesterday, the only reason you should pay more for beaver is if you plan to use it in extreme weather conditions, so rabbit should be good as long as it’s not in a storm for too long.

[Indiana_Nate]

My regular sable rabbit Raiders is my “daily driver” and is about 2 years old at this point. I also live in an area that has all 4 seasons and the hat has been through every one of them. I really can’t say enough good things about it. It’s never tapered, never lost its bash or it’s shape. HJ’s rabbit felt is fantastic.

[Hobbit Fedora]

Oh cool, thanks for letting me know! Where I live in Central Florida you can expect a ten minute torrential rain storm followed by incredibly steamy heat. My two Akubra Fed 4 Deluxes have shown me rabbit felt can stand up to it but those also aren’t purely dress felts.

[thecoolmiester]

Herbert Johnson 40th anniversary on my head and two Christie’s on my brother and sister! Merry Christmas!


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[Indiana Croft]

Now that’s a nice family picture right there.

Those are some nice hats.

Croft

[Hedji]

Awesome photo! Lots of smiles there. Merry Christmas!

[Castor Dioscuri]

Just curious, did anyone else find HJ sizing to be on the more generous side? All the he HJs I ordered (rabbit) were in my usual size which I've used with AB, Texas Hatters, VS, Baron Hats... you get the picture. While my other hats out of the box have always fit perfectly (a couple even were a bit snug), I noticed that my HJs were consistently maybe a size or two too big.

I guess what could be happening is maybe the block shape just might be shaped differently from what I'm more used to, but I'm just wondering if others have had the same issue?

[jlee562]

I would not say my 56 seems like a whole size larger, but it does fit slightly more loose than my other hats. Very slightly. The kind of difference I would just chalk up to manufacturing tolerances.

[tubasthebest]

The sizing on mine was spot on. I did not feel like it was oversized, it is snug but not too tight.

[Castor Dioscuri]

Hmm, must just be the block shape that doesn't agree with me then

[craigjohn]

I've also owned a bunch of these: ABL legacy from Penman, HJ reboot in rabbit by Jack, a couple original ABs, and a couple garrison hats. Of them, Penman tops out my list. HJ was a good hat, but the crown was too tall no matter how I bashed it.

Could you possibly post a picture with your Penman, ABL, and HJ together?

I actually can't because my Penman and ABL are one and the same, and I sold the Herbert Johnson late last year. Here are a couple separate photos of the ABL and HJ though:

Herbert Johnson:


Penman ABL:

Based on these photos, I’m surprised you sold the HJ, as it has that “raiders look” to me — more so than the Penman.

The Raiders hat has a fairly tall crown, more than some people want to admit. Your old HJ had more of an Raven’s Bar/LC bash and high pinch.

The crown on the Penman looks a bit squished down. The pinch and bash look look a bit soft and nondescript. The bash and pinch, however can be reworked if you needed. But the general shape of the crown doesn’t have “that look and feel” in this photo.

[craigjohn]

I've been going through so many older posts, reading about other hat makers who are making raiders hats since HJ of old wasn't making them or lost the blocks??
Long story short is HJ the hat to get in 2020? Would you still go with Penman, AB, advinture, fed iv, etc instead now?

Everyone has their own criteria in what constitutes a grail piece. It could be Rarity. Lineage. Accuracy. Any combination of those three.

I’ve been itching for an Indy hat for ages, but spent most of my time over the past several years working on a SW prop collection. My grail piece is my TM ESB Vader. I have a grail lineage ESB Fett in the works. Hoping to have it finished within the next year or so. I have a few other pieces as well, and so, that is that.

Now that my small SW collection is basically done, I finally turned my focus to Indy once again. I had sniffed around at this a few years ago, just as Michelle was turning things around for HJ.I love her passion to searching for the answers the fans and collectors have been asking. But…as I did my search, I kept getting pulled away.

With that (SW) all but out of the way… I’m back.

I might be weird, in that legacy and lineage means a lot to me. Likely more than many. …I’m looking at this more of a “prop replica” than a “costume piece”. And so accuracy to the original was pretty important to me. I also wanted the piece to be created by the original Raider’s Fedora/Poet hatter, if that was a possibility. And I love that this is a 100% reality.

Michelle, Mel and their hatters have been killing it. They’ve really nailed the look and feel of the Raiders hat, even without the weathering.

So yes. To me, HJ is the grail.

I just placed my order (FINALLY) on a custom order - based on the Idol Cave scene. The things that drove to this particular hat.

• there is a point it didn’t have a Raiders Turn - which made it unique in this movie.

• the weathering was rather minimal compared to the rest of the movie. Especially the SOC version. I could accomplish this weathering by letting the hat sit out and collect dust for a year, then rub it into the felt.

• the pinch isn’t nearly as tight as the rest of the movie — making it unique to Raiders. The front bash, however, is still big, deep and bold - which is very indicative of the Raiders hat. …save for the high tight bash of the one Raven’s Bar bash moment.

• The crown is definitely straight and tall - not tapered. And it’s not mushroomed.

• the front brim has this beautiful S curve from left to right. It doesn’t have the cowboy curl yet.

• the hat isn’t super floppy at this point.

All of that adds up to a unique version of the Raiders hat, that still screams “Raiders Hat”, and that really appealed to me.

So I ordered the regular Raiders Poet in deep sable rabbit:
https://herbertjohnson.co.uk/collection ... ble-rabbit

…having the hatters artfully work the bash, soft pinch, and brim based on source photos I submitted.

Could any other Indy Hatter option make this? Probably. Could they do it as well as HJ? Maybe. Are they HJ, the original Raiders Hatter? No.

We’ll see how this goes in about 12 weeks.

c

[Hobbit Fedora]

Love your reasoning! All reasons I would love to add a HJ to my wardrobe someday. Something about the heritage of it, not just to Indy but (in reference to the Poet) to the history of a hat style they’ve been making for over a century now. Sadly out of reach for me but hopefully someday!

[jlee562]

I'd concur with that sentiment. I know not everyone is necessarily going to feel the same, but having the HJ branding does add some intangible value for me.

That, and I'm still convinced it's *the* block.

[craigjohn]

I’ve read much of the discussion about the HJ blocks recently, and the discussion a few years ago.

I decided to go straight to HJ, and ask them. Mel sent me the following link.

If you haven’t read it yet, then for your reading pleasure, I submit this: …and I highly encourage you to read this on it’s entirety.

https://herbertjohnson.co.uk/blogs/jour ... -hero-poet

From the blog post:

“Herbert Johnson was not alone in that the brand outsourced the manufacturing of their hats to a variety of large hat manufacturers in tandem with hats made or trimmed in-house. The Raiders hat’s origin was a Poet model which was on our shop shelves directly from one such manufacturer. This model was then adjusted by our sales manager Richard Swales before sending the entire season’s stock of them to the film studio for Raiders. Five hats were for Harrison Ford and the remainder for the stunt team.”

Also noted:

“So how do you know you have the correct Raiders Poet shape today?

It was of the utmost importance for us here at Herbert Johnson to confirm the crown shape for Raiders and return to using the accurate Poet block shape once again. We have gone to great lengths to study many vintage Herbert Johnson Poets. We were very fortunate to find several examples that have never been shaped and remain pristine and preserved in open crown state. We are confident the shape we use today is an absolute match for Raiders and now boast a remastered graduated set from size 54cm up to 64cm.”

[elstevo]

So if I'm reading that article correctly:

* HJ never actually "made" the Poet used for Raiders, as they outsourced production for some products and made some other products in-house—the Poet being one that was outsourced.
* Swales fine-tuned the outsourced Poets they received, then sent them to the studio. But again, the Raiders fedoras were not made in-house by HJ.
* Therefore, what this article from HJ is saying (again, if I'm reading it correctly) is that the Raiders Poet block was never lost because they never owned it in the first place.
* However, by analyzing vintage Poets from the Raiders era (we presume), they've constructed a new block that they're confident matches the Poet blocks used around the time of Raiders

[jlee562]

So if I'm reading that article correctly:

* HJ never actually "made" the Poet used for Raiders, as they outsourced production for some products and made some other products in-house—the Poet being one that was outsourced.
* Swales fine-tuned the outsourced Poets they received, then sent them to the studio. But again, the Raiders fedoras were not made in-house by HJ.
* Therefore, what this article from HJ is saying (again, if I'm reading it correctly) is that the Raiders Poet block was never lost because they never owned it in the first place.
* However, by analyzing vintage Poets from the Raiders era (we presume), they've constructed a new block that they're confident matches the Poet blocks used around the time of Raiders

Correct, the original blocking/flanging, and attachment of ribbon/sweatband, etc, would have been outsouced. This was fairly common back in the day and even moreso now. The former Biltmore in Canada made a lot of 'house brands' for department stores and the like. Before the HJ reboots, they were being made at the Christy's factory with HJ branding. According to the link, HJ did have their own set of in house blocks, presumably for refurbishment. They were not literally lost, but in storage, and if I interpret the story correctly, it seems as if nobody knew the correct corresponding block. The link does read to me as the match was established visually and not say, a long lost invoice with the block number on it.

If they figured out what number the block was, it would be relatively easy to get a new set of blocks made, provided that the block maker has the right profile on file.

[backstagejack]

So if I'm reading that article correctly:
........
* Therefore, what this article from HJ is saying (again, if I'm reading it correctly) is that the Raiders Poet block was never lost because they never owned it in the first place.
* However, by analyzing vintage Poets from the Raiders era (we presume), they've constructed a new block that they're confident matches the Poet blocks used around the time of Raiders

Correct, the original blocking/flanging, and attachment of ribbon/sweatband, etc, would have been outsouced. This was fairly common back in the day and even moreso now. The former Biltmore in Canada made a lot of 'house brands' for department stores and the like. Before the HJ reboots, they were being made at the Christy's factory with HJ branding. According to the link, HJ did have their own set of in house blocks, presumably for refurbishment. They were not literally lost, but in storage, and if I interpret the story correctly, it seems as if nobody knew the correct corresponding block. The link does read to me as the match was established visually and not say, a long lost invoice with the block number on it.

If they figured out what number the block was, it would be relatively easy to get a new set of blocks made, provided that the block maker has the right profile on file.

So am I wrong in remembering that this is different from what the HJ guy Jack from a few years ago was telling us? I recall him saying he found THE block.

[craigjohn]

So if I'm reading that article correctly:

* HJ never actually "made" the Poet used for Raiders, as they outsourced production for some products and made some other products in-house—the Poet being one that was outsourced.
* Swales fine-tuned the outsourced Poets they received, then sent them to the studio. But again, the Raiders fedoras were not made in-house by HJ.
* Therefore, what this article from HJ is saying (again, if I'm reading it correctly) is that the Raiders Poet block was never lost because they never owned it in the first place.
* However, by analyzing vintage Poets from the Raiders era (we presume), they've constructed a new block that they're confident matches the Poet blocks used around the time of Raiders

How I read it:

HJ’s poets at the time of Raiders, in the late 70’s/1980, were outsourced to HJ based on HJ’s specs/design.

In general, the poet was a pretty common/popular design amongst hatters of that 70’s-80’s era, in fact, going all the way back to the turn of century.

HJ had their own set of blocks for their own proprietary hat designs — not necessarily for reblocking the HJ Poets. That part isn’t 100% clear. My guess HJ didn’t have Poet Blocks, why keep something that is so commonly found amongst hat producers, and why TOD hat changed so much from Raiders. …of course, when it’s all said and done, and HJ couldn’t recreate the Raiders hat for TOD, this is a big reason why they should have made/created a proprietary set of blocks for themselves back then.

…side note of mine here: I’m a big fan of the TOD poet. It’s not the Raider, but I love it none the less.

When Swales/HJ hired Michelle, they brought the actual poet production in-house, and she scoured their resources (inside and out) to find the answers about the original poet — and here we are.

HJ reverse engineered their new/current blocks using vintage OC poets from the time of Raider’s production, and built a scale of blocks in various sizes. Michelle is confident the blocks they have are 100% accurate to the original Raiders Poet HJ sent to the film studio for movie production. Based on what I see, there is very little reason to doubt her. Michelle and her team have certainly achieved the “Raiders Look”.

Which brings me back to: If HJ is making the Raiders poet as well as, if not better than, any other Raiders hatter out there, and acquiring a Raiders hat from the original movie studio supplier means something to you…

…Wouldn’t that be a Holy Grail? …or the Ark of the Raiders hats…

To me? 100%

[craigjohn]

So if I'm reading that article correctly:
........
* Therefore, what this article from HJ is saying (again, if I'm reading it correctly) is that the Raiders Poet block was never lost because they never owned it in the first place.
* However, by analyzing vintage Poets from the Raiders era (we presume), they've constructed a new block that they're confident matches the Poet blocks used around the time of Raiders

Correct, the original blocking/flanging, and attachment of ribbon/sweatband, etc, would have been outsouced. This was fairly common back in the day and even moreso now. The former Biltmore in Canada made a lot of 'house brands' for department stores and the like. Before the HJ reboots, they were being made at the Christy's factory with HJ branding. According to the link, HJ did have their own set of in house blocks, presumably for refurbishment. They were not literally lost, but in storage, and if I interpret the story correctly, it seems as if nobody knew the correct corresponding block. The link does read to me as the match was established visually and not say, a long lost invoice with the block number on it.

If they figured out what number the block was, it would be relatively easy to get a new set of blocks made, provided that the block maker has the right profile on file.

So am I wrong in remembering that this is different from what the HJ guy Jack from a few years ago was telling us? I recall him saying he found THE block.

For a variety of reasons I won’t go into, I wouldn’t put too much credence in what Jack was saying at that particular time back then.

Those rumors certainly got a lot of fans all frothy, myself included. But I appreciate how HJ is being very transparent with the history of the original Raiders poet, and dispelling those old rumors. That’s a huge plus in the “trust department” for me.

I won’t speak ill of Jack, being he’s no longer with us. If you want to find out more of the history of Jack, you can certainly search these forums.

[elstevo]

Which brings me back to: If HJ is making the Raiders poet as well as, if not better than, any other Raiders hatter out there, and acquiring a Raiders hat from the original movie studio supplier means something to you…

…Wouldn’t that be a Holy Grail? …or the Ark of the Raiders hats…

To me? 100%

I dunno, I think it loses a little of the magic for me. It’s like saying that Wested got jackets made by three different suppliers and then put the Wested label on all of them. Does it still count as Wested “making” the jacket?

What HJ are essentially saying in this blog post is that they sold the Poets used in the movies, but didn’t make them. The whole “HJ lost the original block” story came from the belief that the Poet was made in-house.

Granted, I think I’d still value one because I’m a collector and having the original name still means something to the collector mindset (the same way I love my Wested Raiders jacket, even though I bought it in 2004 and I’m pretty sure they weren’t making it off the original design until a few years later). But I think I’d still define “holy grail” as somehow being able to track down the block used by whichever supplier they’d outsourced from at the time—or, better still, a vintage HJ Poet from the Raiders era. The modern HJ might be a more realistic goal, and perhaps the best of close enough, but like the real Holy Grail, the holy grail of the original block or a 1981 Poet may very well be lost until some intrepid explorer finds it!

[craigjohn]

The poets were made to HJ’s specs. RS made adjustments to the hats. Were the hats 100% bespoke? No. But Spielberg and Ford chose the HJ hats over other hatters for a reason, vs choosing another London hatter’s poet.

That’s distinction is still very much on HJ.

…and until the original blocks from the production supplier shows up, HJ is it. I doubt those blocks will ever show up if they’re not out in the open already. They’re as likely being in a landfill, thrown out as old hat blocks, as much as being in a private collection. Unless HJ somehow acquired those blocks years later — and they’re not willing to say…

[elstevo]

I suppose. I still think some of the wind has been let out of the sails.

I guess it depends on what you define as “holy grail.” I’m a huge U2 fan. They made a film in 1988 called Rattle & Hum that was black and white up until gorgeous color footage from a performance at Sun Devil Stadium in Tempe, AZ. Video of only some of the songs from that performance have ever been released. There are some people in the U2 collector community who claim they’ve seen the rest of the footage or know someone who has it and are holding out for über-valuable trade offers before they let it see the light of day. To the rest of the U2 community, that footage is the holy grail because it’s practically unobtainable and potentially doesn’t even exist.

I also play guitar. Dumble amps famously sold for over $100K because they were handmade by Dumble himself and there were only ever 300 built. Now that Dumble has died, they’ll sell for $150K-300K. That’s a holy grail amp.

A hat reverse engineered by a company that outsourced the original hat, tweaked it, and put their liner in it and can be ordered online any time you want it? Again, I get it in terms of having a complete collection. But to me, “holy grail” is overstating it a little. YMMV.

[IJJTM]

After handling a bunch of hats from numerous makers, including HJ, I feel like in terms of Raiders, they are not the holy grail, I mean look at their SOC alone and compare that to the likes of FedoraRaiders and Advintage. I just feel like they overcharge for their stuff based solely on the name and not the quality. Though, I think their hats from the other films are pretty good, and I think their seaplane color looks the part of a brownish grey that shifts.

[craigjohn]

I look at a holy grail as a top of the line accuracy piece, whether it’s with lineage back to the original piece, created from the original maker, or of extreme rarity, or any combination there of.

For me, and I can only speak for me, the HJ has…

A block that “allegedly” matches the original through reverse engineering from original HJ OC Poets made in the same era as the filming of Raiders.

It has the shape accuracy and look of the original poet. Michelle has researched the snot of this to bring us the most accurate Raiders poet they can create to date — which includes their research of the blocks, and researching the felt of those vintage hats.

It comes from the same company that sourced the 5 original hero poets for Ford in Raiders.

Would I prefer the hat be made from the exact same blocks used to make the original 5 Ford Raiders hats? Of course. Who wouldn’t?

As far as obtainability: I couldn’t care less how easy an HJ is to obtain - click “buy now” from their online store. I don’t care how many people actual own an HJ Raiders poet.

This is the best HJ can provide right now, and IMO, the best link to the original we currently have. …And I’ll take any sliver of a link back to the original hat I can get — original maker and solid well researched engineered accuracy/build going back to the same hats made from the same film production era.

No one else can provide this link beyond great hatter build quality.

Speaking of which: to be clear, I’m not saying there aren’t other great hatters out there. I’m not saying they didn’t do their own research, sourced great materials to put together a great product.

But Spielberg and Ford walked out of the HJ store, with HJ Raiders hats. No other hatter can make this claim.

I agree. YMMV. …HJ Raiders is my grail Indy hat. Indy fans can get what they want, for any reason they want. I don’t expect anyone to share my view.

[Hobbit Fedora]

Well said! Of course having one’s hat blocked on the same block would be cool, but if the block they have now gives the same shape then, well, that’s cool too in my book. It’s special to know Herbert Johnson took the time to research and back-engineer the Poets, a company like that didn’t have too and many would’ve went with good enough.
Of course other hatters have done a fantastic job in back engineering as well, but being an official Herbert Johnson is really neat. For me there’s also something to be said for the heritage, both in the Indiana Jones sense and in the sense of being a surviving classic hatters. I’d say the combination of those factors really give these hats a certain allure, as does the craftsmanship that Michelle and company are putting into them.

[jlee562]

In general, the poet was a pretty common/popular design amongst hatters of that 70’s-80’s era, in fact, going all the way back to the turn of century.

HJ had their own set of blocks for their own proprietary hat designs — not necessarily for reblocking the HJ Poets. That part isn’t 100% clear. My guess HJ didn’t have Poet Blocks, why keep something that is so commonly found amongst hat producers, and why TOD hat changed so much from Raiders. …of course, when it’s all said and done, and HJ couldn’t recreate the Raiders hat for TOD, this is a big reason why they should have made/created a proprietary set of blocks for themselves back then.

I'm interpreting it as HJ having a matching set of blocks. I think it would have been fairly uncommon - especially by the 1980's -for a smaller outfit like HJ to have any proprietary blocks. As the link states, "The crown shape is actually widely used by hatters and is a common classic shape known and used throughout the industry." The TOD hat was produced by Bosalino. I can't speak authoritatively about the SOC look, because that is emphatically not my jam. I just look at the comparison I made earlier in the thread and it makes sense to me that the hat as it appeared in the Prop Store pics started out as a 'clean' Poet with the block now in use. The detail I do personally look for is where the crown starts to slope when viewed from the side:



The profile is fairly straight until about 2/3rds of the way up where it starts sloping back. To my eye, many if not most other Indy hats do not match this side profile view.

ETA: as far as the 'not really made by HJ,' thing. Considering we are talking about an article of clothing, this distinction doesn't bother me personally. Calvin Klein doesn't literally make his whole line himself, but would anyone say Calvin Klein doesn't 'make' clothes? They almost certainly do not own the actual manufacturer.

Other than getting a hat from the literal exact block that was used to make the film hats, for me, it's not particularly important if HJ actually built out the hats in house because of the universality of hat blocks. A #52 block is a #52 block. We're kinda quibbling over whether or not it 'counts' if it was made by an independent contractor for HJ off site (which again, very common) or an employee of HJ on site. I mean, really it comes down to how the workers are classified. All other things being equal, the factory would have made the exact same hat whether or not said factory was owned by HJ.

I would also point out that Indy hats are kinda off in their own little bubble. Because there are so many custom hatters, I think it may give us modern consumers a different set of expectations. The vast majority of hats sold and worn historically would have been factory made hats, and pure beaver felts were much less common. The whole routine we do today is much different. Ever seen a conformateur? The working ones are now mostly in the hands of custom hatters making fedoras, but these weren't even intended for soft felt hats, they're intended for stiff bowlers because those don't conform as easy (conversely, older soft felts conform much better than modern felts).

[craigjohn]

I would love it if HJ had a matching set of blocks from their original Poet hat maker. That would be outstanding - and they used those to create their new graduated block set. But I'm not overly worried about it, as their hats definitely pass the eye-test, and look the part.

I know everyone seems love the SOC hat, but that hat was so beat up and altered by Ford at that point. It was a floppy mess. LOL

I much prefer the Idol Cave (from entrance to exit), and Raven's Bar versions of the hat. Just a little less dusty, and they seem to hold their shape a bit better. ...I'd hate to think what I'd have to do to my new Raider's Poet to get it to the point of replicating the SOC. Fold it up, sit on it, dunk it water, steam the snot out of it, re-bash and re-pinch, then re-bash again, after folding it up, and sitting on it for two more days.... LOL

[Hobbit Fedora]

True, I couldn’t even bring myself to do that to my Fed 4 Deluxe let alone an expensive piece like the Poet, probably why the one worn in the “Donovan Apt” scene in Last Crusade is my favorite, worn in but looked after. As far as Raiders goes I always liked the non-turned one worn on location in Hawaii (“Peru”).

[craigjohn]

After handling a bunch of hats from numerous makers, including HJ, I feel like in terms of Raiders, they are not the holy grail, I mean look at their SOC alone and compare that to the likes of FedoraRaiders and Advintage. I just feel like they overcharge for their stuff based solely on the name and not the quality. Though, I think their hats from the other films are pretty good, and I think their seaplane color looks the part of a brownish grey that shifts.

Why compare the SOC hats? You're talking about comparing a hat style that wasn't delivered as such to the film studio. All of that SOC goodness (bash, pinch and weathered floppiness) was created by the film studio and Ford during filming.

Plus, if we're going for "accuracy over value", the hat wasn't delivered in Beaver fur. If you're not going for accuracy, and your big thing is "more value", sure - there are less expensive options made with beaver fur than HJ. If having "beaver fur" is your thing.

Speaking of value; as far a pricing, HJ has an actual brick and mortar storefront to pay for, on top of the space they own to make their hats + employees to run the store, and hatters making their various kinds of hats. More overhead = higher pricing. The name certainly carries a bit of a price tag as well, especially being they're the one's who sold their Poet hats to Spielberg and Ford for the movie production. That's how it works, generally.

To say HJ doesn't make an accurate hat is 'inaccurate'. Go through their Instagram feed and look at all the custom Raiders hats they've created for their customers. Most are bang on (sans weathering). They are as good, if not better than any other Raiders hatter out there.

[IJJTM]

I'm just saying how I see it, the SOC is the most desired variation of the Raiders hat by fans to the point that companies such as HJ make it a separate option, and when it comes to the SOC, I'd say that they are lacking. Also, I feel like their Raiders block is too tapered, or at least from the few I have seen in person. Like I said in the last post, their TOD and LC hats are really good, and I'm not sure anyone has come close to their Seaplane color. Though from my own hands-on experience, their Raiders hat is just not there yet, with some more R&D, I think that HJ will reach that point.

[jlee562]

Maybe this is an inconsequential phrasing quibble; but, in re-reading the thread, I picked up on 'reverse engineering' with regards to the block, and, well I wouldn't phrase it that way. It's not as if someone had to hand carve a new block based on the hat. Assuming what HJ is saying is true with regards to being a "common classic shape," somebody just needed to figure out the block # and the block maker would know what that profile entailed. I'd wager there's a high probability it can be found among Guy Morse Brown's catalog. Heck, it might even be this one. They probably got a few straight sided blocks in Ford's size and blocked up some samples. There are a handful of commonly known and used block profiles, e.g. #51 and #52, but the few remaining block makers have many more.

[craigjohn]

Maybe this is an inconsequential phrasing quibble; but, in re-reading the thread, I picked up on 'reverse engineering' with regards to the block, and, well I wouldn't phrase it that way. It's not as if someone had to hand carve a new block based on the hat. Assuming what HJ is saying is true with regards to being a "common classic shape," somebody just needed to figure out the block # and the block maker would know what that profile entailed. I'd wager there's a high probability it can be found among Guy Morse Brown's catalog. Heck, it might even be this one. They probably got a few straight sided blocks in Ford's size and blocked up some samples. There are a handful of commonly known and used block profiles, e.g. #51 and #52, but the few remaining block makers have many more.

That's equally possible. Regardless how they came about their new block, I'd say they're pretty spot on.

Regarding the SOC, I really haven't seen any hat that matches the look of the SOC, because it was altered so much before Ford received the hat, and Ford altered the hat even further after he received it from the costume department. If you're going for hat accuracy, I would say comparing a hatter's version of the SOC to a screen used SOC hat is being a bit disingenuous at best. No one is going to replicate it 100%. I wouldn't put blame on any hatter for not replicating the SOC to a tee - and none of them do. Not HJ, Advintage, Penman, S&J, etc. There isn't a hatter out there that makes a SOC hat, and makes me say, "That's IT! That's the SOC hat"...

To me, if you're going for an accurate SOC look, that's 100% on the buyer to manipulate the hat. And on top of that, the hat changed style as they were filming the same scenes. The SOC has a few different looks, including the front pinch. One moment it's straight, another moment, the left side has a bit of a swoop. One shot it looks like there's a taper, in another, the sides are straight, with out a bulge. Which is no different than the Idol Cave scene. The hat changes style from the walk through, to the point where Ford enters the Idol Chamber. The pinch tightens up, and the hat has more of a turn. In fact, the hat didn't even have a turn when Indy and Satipo are standing outside of the cave entrance, and indy is digging through the backpack.

In Raven's Bar, one version of the hat, the pinch looks more like a LC pinch and front bash, than a Raider pinch. It literally feels like a "Mr. No Stripes" moment from Star Wars...

Advintage SOC (via instagram)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CTo9mVhISU7/









I'm not saying these hatters make bad hats, just stating that replicating the floppiest dirtiest hat version in the movie is wildly difficult.



As far as taper - camera angles do weird things.






BTW. If I'm ordering a Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls hat, I'm 100% going through AB... And if that's your favorite Indy hat, then that's your holy grail.

[IJJTM]

How are you going through AB? Like secondhand?

[craigjohn]

How are you going through AB? Like secondhand?

Is John not making hats again? He has the AB KCS blocks, method and the list of original suppliers…

http://www.adventurebilthats.com/ab-le ... ction.html

[IJJTM]

Ah, you mean Adventurebilt Legacy. Currently, John is not making Indy hats and says that he's waiting on new sweatbands, but he's been saying that all year.

[craigjohn]

Ah, you mean Adventurebilt Legacy. Currently, John is not making Indy hats and says that he's waiting on new sweatbands, but he's been saying that all year.

Adventurebilt Legacy. Whatever wordsmithing you need to do define the hat being made on Adventurebilt blocks, using the same techniques Steve used.

I never had any intention to order CS hat, so I'm not worried about it. The HJ Raiders Poet (non-SOC) is my grail.

[IJJTM]

Ah, you mean Adventurebilt Legacy. Currently, John is not making Indy hats and says that he's waiting on new sweatbands, but he's been saying that all year.

Adventurebilt Legacy. Whatever wordsmithing you need to do define the hat being made on Adventurebilt blocks, using the same techniques Steve used.

I never had any intention to order CS hat, so I'm not worried about it. The HJ Raiders Poet (non-SOC) is my grail.

Sounds good, I’m glad you like it.

[Mark Brody]

With the USD being so favorable against the GBP right now, I’m considering ordering a HJ Raider sable beaver. Has the quality and durability of their hats improved to put them back on par with the best hatters? When KotCS came out, people were avoiding HJ like the plague because their hats were hardly better than Dorfman Pacific. It seems things have changed, but how much? How do the current HJ offerings compare to other popular alternatives like S&J, Penman, or even Steve Delk’s original AB?