Were they the same?

[Raider Of The Lost Ark]

I was just wondering about the films where Indy wore a ‘smart’ hat, as well as his ‘adventure’ hat. Do all the hats, in the same film, have the same bash and essential shape? There is a really good thread, with a link, showing the differences between the hats, such as the side profile, of the Raiders hat, where it tapers backwards at the top of the ribbon.

Raiders had the Seaplane and the ‘walking down the steps,’ at the end, hats. Last Crusade had the plane / arrival in Venice hat. Crystal Skull had the wedding hat. Is colour the only difference between them and his ‘gear’ hats in those films?

[IJJTM]

Pretty sure all of the hats were the same across each film minus color and bash except on CS where the Train hat had a different block as well.

[Indiana Jeff]

This provides insight.

http://indygear.com/igfedora.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Castor Dioscuri]

Interesting, this does beg the question- Was Indy's "Venice" fedora meant to be a separate dress hat? I always assumed it was one and the same as his "adventure" hat...

Same with the wedding hat in CS. Isn't the whole point of that scene being that it's his iconic fedora? (I.e. not some random dress hat that has no symbolic value?) I would argue that a better example for Indy's dress hat in CS is, as IJJTM pointed out, the grey train fedora.

[backstagejack]

But are we talking real world or in world?

Real world is an easier answer. Ford wore more than one hat in all the films though all had the same bash and specs theoretically. Even the main Indygear page states that 48 hats were made for Ford and stuntmen in CS. I'm sure there was a Hero hat, probably more than one? The Venice hat would have the same specs as his adventure hats etc. Only things like the LC grail cave scene where the brim was cut down stand out in my mind as having different "specs".

Didn't the CS train hat have slightly different specs/bash?

In world is just going to be fan speculation that's been bandied about endlessly.

[jlee562]

The CS Train hat is definitely a different block:

the Indy 4 traveller hat is galaxies away from the Raiders grey.

So the felt of the grey Indy 4 hat came from unknown sources? Did Bernie give you a felt cone and you reblocked it on your block?

Oh sure. Bernie wanted Oxford Gray. I did not have anything close, so I sent him my own gray. Granite Gray. I was surprised when he used it. He never found a proper Oxford, and used the sample I had sent him. Just made it on a different vintage block, as he said it did not have to match the brown hats we made. He called me from where they shot the train scenes, and told me he had used my gray hat! And that he needed me to make one more as a backup. Fedora.

[Castor Dioscuri]

But are we talking real world or in world?

Real world is an easier answer. Ford wore more than one hat in all the films though all had the same bash and specs theoretically. Even the main Indygear page states that 48 hats were made for Ford and stuntmen in CS. I'm sure there was a Hero hat, probably more than one? The Venice hat would have the same specs as his adventure hats etc. Only things like the LC grail cave scene where the brim was cut down stand out in my mind as having different "specs".

Didn't the CS train hat have slightly different specs/bash?

In world is just going to be fan speculation that's been bandied about endlessly.

Sorry for bejng unclear. I was referring to what we, as an audience are suppose to believe. If this hat that Indy (not Ford the actor) wears in Venice, is meant to be the same as his adventure wear hat, "in world" as you say.

[cm289]

I personally think he had a dress version and a work version.


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[Illinois_Jones]

Well the thing is, he wears hats that better color match the suit. Raiders with the dark suit, CS with that lighter tan tweed, and then both suits in LC are more of a grey-brown and the brown hat suits them.

Now I'm inclined to say that the brown hat in LC wasn't originally intended to be an "adventure" hat -- remember, LC the main adventure just happens as consequence of him trying to find his father. Though even if he didn't bring his true adventure hat, he still managed to bring his jacket and whip etc. But I think it's pretty clear he's just got the one hat throughout LC. He may not have intended it to be his hanging-from-a-tank hat, but it became that.

Also, I would imagine by 1988 that it was a branding/style decision not to have Indy wear a different hat in the film. With Raiders they didn't yet know how iconic that hat would be, and having him wear a clean grey hat with a dark suit makes perfect sense. And CS was both a different animal but was also paying direct homage to Raiders. But in 1988 I could definitely see an edict coming directly from the top that Indy doesn't wear anything but the brown hero hat.

[backstagejack]

Sorry for bejng unclear. I was referring to what we, as an audience are suppose to believe. If this hat that Indy (not Ford the actor) wears in Venice, is meant to be the same as his adventure wear hat, "in world" as you say.

According to SS and GL, it's the exact same hat (aside from the seaplane and train hat) from 1913-1969.

To me that's ridiculous. Folks cycled their hats. Dress hat, once it's worn/beat up, it becomes a work hat, and repeat. To me that makes sense and also explains why Indy's hat looks different from one movie to the next. Indy puts his hat through way more than normal folk on a very regular basis.

He obviously replaces his pants, shirts, bag and jacket..... why not his hat?

Now, say in Venice did he have two hats? I don't think so. I think in theory, he probably ruined his hat after being out to sea in the beginning..... and then it's the same dress hat from at least the college scene to donavan to venice etc that becomes a "work" hat.

But it's all speculation.

[Castor Dioscuri]

I've heard that argument before, but I don't know how much I subscribe to it, in my opinion.

I mean, we're talking about a guy that has been shot , punched in the head countless times, had his legs dragged on a moving vehicle, etc., all in an era of an arguably primitive stage of modern medicine, and seemingly doesn't have major health issues, arthritis, memory loss, brain damage, etc...

Using the same logic, folks... well, most folks would be confined to a wheelchair for the rest of their lives, or at the very least suffering from major health issues, not out adventuring in their 60s and 80s.

Suspension of disbelief, you say? And therein lies my point! If we can suspend our disbelief that Indy can survive all this with no scars or even need time to recover right after a major action set piece, then doesn't it stand to reason that we should be able to believe this guy wears the same outfit for a few decades?

No disrespect meant, just voicing my own opinion.

Ultimately, I think of Indy as a tribute to the serials of the early 20th century, and just like other golden age heroes during that time, we're meant to believe his uniform not only exists forever, but has a weird self healing property that we are just not supposed to dwell on. Like how early Lone Ranger, Zorro, or even Superman would have their clothes torn, and magically repaired later even in the same episode...

[Illinois_Jones]

Well, yeah, it's a romantic notion that it's all the same hat. In reality, it's not out of the question that a man of that era had a style preference and a relationship with a hatter who made him the same model again as needed. Whether it's the same felt body or he gets new ones every so often never mattered to me. And the idea that a guy would latch on to a color and style and gets several made over decades and wear it until he died is so common as to be cliche.

[jlee562]

As far as the real world is concerned, my understanding is that the average person would periodically just get a new hat. There are certainly examples of period advertisements that market 'a new style for spring.' There's a Stetson Stratoliner ad where the wife says "now I can throw away those horrible old wrecks of yours." Obviously it's an ad to sell hats, but I think it does speak to the idea that folks were not so precious about their hats. If one had the means, they would get a new hat as need or style dictated. The Poet specifically was a seasonal hat.

Second hand info, but from the HJ site:

Mark goes on to say that Richard told him the Poet was a winter style of hat, 'It was only available late in the year and it was expected it would only last a season before you would replace it with a brand new Poet the following winter. The hats were disposable and you would expect shrinkage of the felt and rotting of the leather with heavy wear. Richard described the retiring of an old hat as 'Putting it out to grass'.

But of course the films are not strictly reality based. I always assumed the audience itself was meant to assume that it's the same hat. But an actual, real world tenured professor in 1936 probably just got a new hat when they needed it.

[backstagejack]

Well, yeah, it's a romantic notion that it's all the same hat. In reality, it's not out of the question that a man of that era had a style preference and a relationship with a hatter who made him the same model again as needed. Whether it's the same felt body or he gets new ones every so often never mattered to me. And the idea that a guy would latch on to a color and style and gets several made over decades and wear it until he died is so common as to be cliche.

That's where I've always been with his gear and sure, it's fiction but you can't wear the same gear from at least 1935-1958 without the specific situation you describe. Indy tears his stuff up a lot.

So he obviously replaces it, including the hat. He has his adventure gear down so he gets it replaced with the exact same thing if he can. There's even subtle differences which speak to Indy wanting to add new things (snaps to the storm flap, different cut of jacket etc)...or maybe the buttons for his shirt are no longer sold, so his tailor gets a different color, etc. To me, it explains why his gear is slightly different from movie to movie. That explains how you go from the Raiders style tight pinch turned brim to the cowboy curl of the LC, etc. As he gets older and has more money his hat gets better from rabbit in ROTLA to beaver in CS.

I've said this for years but his gear though military inspired is most definitely not real world surplus, so that implies to me that he specifically gets his gear tailored how he likes it.

Only now in 1969 do we see slightly different gear, most noticeably the front pleats in his shirt. Maybe his tailor died?

Again, I get its fiction but GL and SS did attempt to set Indy in a "real" world especially if you include YIJC. So...... real world solutions to replacing his gear.

But that's just me. I'm fine if someone wants to think it's the same hat etc. It's all in good fun.

[RelicHunter]

For those who prefer an in-universe explanation, Indiana Jones and the Army of the Dead by Steve Perry (pp. 8-9) has Indy going to great lengths to maintain the same hat he received in 1912: https://www.google.com/books/edition/In ... berdashery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...I get it blocked and dry-cleaned when I'm back in civilization, use a hat jack when it's in the closet. Had the sweatband replaced eight or nine times. And there are hatmakers who can repair a tear or hole in felt, though it costs an arm and a leg. For what I've spent on this fedora over the years, I could have bought my own haberdashery.

Sure, that's fantastical, but we're talking about someone who survived jumping from a plane in a life raft.

[Thunderspy]

He does seem to lose it in Raiders (I guess Capt Kananga could post it to him, but is it worth it? He’s certainly not wearing it in Washington so the idea seems to be that it’s lost) and then his hat at the beginning of CS is presumably incinerated by the army along with the rest of stuff he wears in the nuclear blast.

Regarding the filming hats, why does the one in the TOD cockpit scene look so different? It was on TV this evening in the U.K. and I was wondering. Is it just because the brim at the back is flipped down, unlike in the rest of the film?

[backstagejack]

Regarding the filming hats, why does the one in the TOD cockpit scene look so different? It was on TV this evening in the U.K. and I was wondering. Is it just because the brim at the back is flipped down, unlike in the rest of the film?

It's also fairly tapered isn't it?

Wasn't there speculation that this might have been the mythical stetson he wore in the film?

[Chiliana Jones]

He does seem to lose it in Raiders (I guess Capt Kananga could post it to him, but is it worth it? He’s certainly not wearing it in Washington so the idea seems to be that it’s lost) and then his hat at the beginning of CS is presumably incinerated by the army along with the rest of stuff he wears in the nuclear blast.

Regarding the filming hats, why does the one in the TOD cockpit scene look so different? It was on TV this evening in the U.K. and I was wondering. Is it just because the brim at the back is flipped down, unlike in the rest of the film?

He's wearing the same grey hat and blue suit he started the travel with. He got them back so I'm sure he got his brown hat back too.

As being the same brown hat all together then yes it is supposed to be. Originally Indy was going to lose it in Raiders but they changed it along the way as the hat became a great way to hide stuntmens faces. Later it was written in why Indy never loses his hat as the hat became a big part of the character. Indy is well known for being a character that never gives up and the hat is his reminder not to do so because that is exactly what Fedora told Indy when Fedora gave it to him.
Sure the hat changes along the way but you can only blame the different costume designers for that. The TOD hat isn't as beaten up as the Raiders hat because TOD is a prequel. And why he's wearing the brown hat at Donovan's just shows that he does take care of the hat. It is now neat and clean. And I'm sure Spielberg wanted the hat brought to Donovan's just to get that iconic shot of the hat and the tablet on the table together. Wouldn't be the same with a grey hat.
And not to mention that Indy loves history and that hat has a lot of history in it.

CJ

[Chiliana Jones]

It's also fairly tapered isn't it?

Wasn't there speculation that this might have been the mythical stetson he wore in the film?

I think that is the hat that recently got auctioned off by Prop Store. It was a Herbert Johnson.


CJ