Is Herbert Johnson the holy grail of indy fedoras now?

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:01 am

That's the situation I found myself in when I got the Nowak TN jacket.

I ended up wearing it, then fate took a hand and I lost a LOT of weight, making it hang on me like a tent.

My youngest daughter needed funds to rebuild her car engine, so it got sold to a fan in England......so anyone out there wearing a TN number 519? That was mine!

Needless to say, it didn't sell for NEAR what the jacket was new, as (like I said), folks pay well for new/unworn items like this that have a true provenance, but worn? Not so much, even with the proven provenance.

I also have a brand new in the box, unworn AB CS fedora custom made for me by Steve from Marc's AB Deluxe materials. If I ever sold it, I'm sure it would make a decent price, but nothing near what I think it's worth. Of course, before anyone asks, it's NOT going anywhere.....

It's all in what it is, who made it, rarity, and MOST importantly, what is it worth to YOU in the big picture?

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:09 pm

Is it me. Where are you guys seeing the price point.
I’m on the fence either way.
As I’m looking at another’s Advatage SOC decent in beaver. I have a ABL SOC in rabbit but see’s no rain, I want one that can.

Croft

davidd · Post by **davidd** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:40 pm

Indiana Croft wrote:Is it me. Where are you guys seeing the price point.

I'm not seeing it, either, which makes this topic confusing.

I was beginning to think it was hallowed knowledge somehow only visible to a secret cabal or inner sanctum

, but Croft has been on the forum since forever ago, so apparently that's not the case.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:13 am

Earlier in the page I believe it was Indiana_Nate who said that he heard from a reputable source that it would be £495 or roughly $700. Croft, if you want one that’ll handle rain well, I would say go with Advintage.

Forrest For the Trees · Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:14 am

We'll wait and see. Can't see spending $700 for a hat. As to buy it to keep as a collectible or actually wear it... I don't see the point of not wearing an awesome hat! Some of you have some great prop and gear displays though, so I get that...

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:02 am

Posted to social media around 11pm Pacific...

“Herbert Johnson is delighted present an exclusive look at the Special Edition Raiders Poet Collectors Package to commemorate the 40th Anniversary of the Paramount Pictures feature film, Raiders of the Lost Ark. In honour of the brand's rich history with the Indiana Jones franchise, welcome everyone to The Streets of Cairo.

Not to be missed from the 12th June, this exclusive package includes:

• Innovative and all-new Herbert Johnson hat box
• The Streets of Cairo Poet
• Certificate of Authenticity
• Limited Edition Collectors Key Ring
• Discount Voucher for your next purchase.

In Memory of Mr. Richard A. Swales, former Sales Manager at Herbert Johnson.

Mr. Swales styled and finished hats for Mr. Ford and countless others as well, having a deep impact on all who met him. He was the face of Herbert Johnson for many years and a model gentleman. Generous, hardworking, and always welcoming, Richard was good friends with many customers and he and his efforts will never be forgotten.

This celebration is for him.

The package will be available to purchase on the 12th June. If you would like to enquire about The Streets of Cairo Poet or any of the wonderful variety of headwear from Herbert Johnson, please contact the hatting workshop directly via workshop@herbert-johnson.co.uk “

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:30 am

Well, I’m a little disappointed by it, does anyone know if the actual hat is different besides the bash? Also, any clue to how much of a discount is included?

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:13 am

Guess we'll find out tomorrow. If it's anything worthwhile, that discount code might convince me to get this set though it wasn't seriously on my radar.

The Aviator · Post by **The Aviator** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:47 am

Further details on spec are due tomorrow, I don’t think I can justify a show piece unless they could guarantee something remarkable. I’m talking felt from original supplier or original block.

Best

Gerry

The Aviator · Post by **The Aviator** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:49 am

Also, even if they did announce that I would be shocked if there was actual consensus here on those claims

Best

Gerry

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:18 am

No word on the felt yet, but they claimed to have the original block for a while now. Concern us is split on that one as some think it’s just an AB block. Steve was selling his blocks for a bit years ago, so who knows.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:24 am

The Aviator wrote:Further details on spec are due tomorrow, I don’t think I can justify a show piece unless they could guarantee something remarkable. I’m talking felt from original supplier or original block.

Best

Gerry

What do you mean when you say "original block?" I don't mean to blow open this can of worms per se, but I don't understand this point.

HJ would not have blocked the original hat, as we know now, HJ outsourced the actual manufacturing of the Poet. So the "original block" was just one in a set at a hat factory (likely one of many identical sets). As noted in their write up, HJ would also have had a set for refurbishment work, as hat blocks are manufactured to certain standards. A #52 block is #52 block whether at the factory or at HJ's shop (sub any block number). The hat making industry today relies on the fact that these block shapes have been standardized.

All of which is to say - IMHO obviously - that if one thinks the current HJ lineup has the "correct" block, whether or not the block is literally the same set that was used to manufacture the screen used hats is more or less moot. Especially if one doesn't share Ford's headsize. Only 7 1/4 hats would gain any sort of special provenance by using "the original block." Any other size is just a hat using the same block. And if the block is the same, for my money, that's the "original block" whether or not the block is vintage or no, or came from the Cury factory. YMMV.

Edit to add:

As far as the felt, I'm not even sure I would want the original felt. I've never held an era appropriate HJ, so take my comments with a huge heaping of salt, but I haven't seen ANY hat from the 80's that was remarkable. The 80's was a real bad decade for hat making. The Stetson factory was already shuttered, Borsalino shut down their original factory (and arguably has never gotten back to the quality of said factory), as aforementioned, HJ wasn't even making hats. I've seen references to "high quality felt" from Cury in various write ups, but then there's also this nugget from HJ:

It was only available late in the year and it was expected it would only last a season before you would replace it with a brand new Poet the following winter. The hats were disposable and you would expect shrinkage of the felt and rotting of the leather with heavy wear. Richard described the retiring of an old hat as 'Putting it out to grass'.

The Aviator · Post by **The Aviator** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:42 am

I appreciate this is a can of worms. But I mean just what you outline, sourcing *the* block from the manufacturer in the late 70s early 80s, and creating a set of replica blocks from those, that is to say basically impossible!

I’m outlining the idea of getting close to a clone of the Raiders hat, again impossible. I’m looking to give hypotheticals where I could see HJ adding value to their current lineup to justify the price tag.

I just can’t see where they’re going to materially improve on what they currently offer, so I’m going into fantasy land

Best

Gerry

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:43 am

I thought they outsourced the hats during the mid 80s, while they still made them in-house for Raiders?

The Aviator · Post by **The Aviator** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:46 am

I’m no expert here, my understanding from memory is that they had their factory hats and Mr Swales changed the ribbon and gave a dimensional cut to the brim. They didn’t actually make them in the shop as they do today.

Best

Gerry

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:49 am

IJJTM wrote:I thought they outsourced the hats during the mid 80s, while they still made them in-house for Raiders?

https://herbertjohnson.co.uk/blogs/jour ... -hero-poet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Poet is a name the Herbert Johnson brand coined to describe it’s popular classic styles harking back to the early 20th century. It described a strong crown shape, usually rather straight sided and tall, often twinned with a medium to wide brim. Although it became a signature model for Herbert Johnson it was never actually patented and was certainly not exclusive. The crown shape is actually widely used by hatters and is a common classic shape known and used throughout the industry. Herbert Johnson merely gave it a unique style name as the brand used the shape so frequently. After all a classic never goes out of fashion and the Poet styles have been a popular staple in the Herbert Johnson ranges over the decades.

Secondly the hats made for the film Raiders Of The Lost Ark were indeed the Poet model but with some additional adjustments made such as changing out the ribbon band and altering the brim dimensions. Spielberg wanted a classic early century style for the character of Indiana Jones so it was not merely happenstance that brought him and Harrison Ford into the London Herbert Johnson shop in search of this classic style. At the time of Raiders, Herbert Johnson were buying in batches of styles seasonally from their trusted manufacturers. Herbert Johnson was not alone in that the brand outsourced the manufacturing of their hats to a variety of large hat manufacturers in tandem with hats made or trimmed in-house. The Raiders hat’s origin was a Poet model which was on our shop shelves directly from one such manufacturer. This model was then adjusted by our sales manager Richard Swales before sending the entire season’s stock of them to the film studio for Raiders. Five hats were for Harrison Ford and the remainder for the stunt team.

It being common practice to outsource manufacture and the Poet block being a widely used block shape then, it was straight forward to order in hats to our specific design from larger manufacturers each season. As a buyer we will choose the open crown shape itself, the felt quality and colour, the trimming levels, everything! A sample would be approved and a shipment agreed on. Popular models would get reordered or adjustments made or new suppliers brought in to improve on quality or cost. These manufacturers all have their own sets of blocks. The buyer at Herbert Johnson would design the ranges with the manufacturer and in this instance they would choose the matching classic shape we called the Poet. All the manufacturers we used had their own sets of blocks just as Herbert Johnson had our own block sets for in house. No blocks exchanged hands because they had no need to due to the Poet actually being a universal classic shape. Herbert Johnson’s in-house Poet blocks have never been lost, just in storage whilst the brand changed ownership and went through periods of time where there was no in-house hat making. The blocks that formed our hats for us over the years were not owned by us ever. So as you see the ‘lost block’ myth is a romantic notion and not based in reality.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:14 am

Well, romantic or not, it was a myth created by HJ themselves as THEY were the ones who told everyone who asked over the past decades that the original blocks were lost. No one created the ‘myth’ outside the shop. Folks only reported what they were told, the blocks were lost and no one knew where they ended up!.

It never ceases to amaze me how as time passes folks say stuff like ‘how in the world did you ever get an idea like that?’ when they were the original, sole source of the information, multiple times! They forget, a lot of us were AROUND back when this was all happening in real time!

The tale may have been told to stop the constant barrage of inquiries from crazies like us, but at least own it! "That's what we were telling people at the time, but the REAL story is......"

The look on my face in my current avatar reflects my thoughts on the current re-writing of history that continues by survivors of the franchise.

Pardon my rant, but sheesh......ok, rant over. Back to my coffee.

Many thanks for posting that! Most comprehensive report directly from HJ I’ve ever read to date, no matter what the current ‘romantic notion’ is !

Regards! Michaelson

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:31 am

So, I got a reply back about the difference between normal HJ and 40th anniversary.

The normal Raiders does not have the extra shaping like streets of Cairo. Normal Raiders has silver embossing and white liner. The 40th anniversary Hat comes with a new champagne gold liner and gold embossing with the initialisas “IJ”. I hope this helps

Does the color look deep sable or normal sable to you guys?

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:44 am

I compared a side by side and it’s definitely the deep sable.

Zooming in on the photo, it looks like the voucher is for 10% off.

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IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:04 am

That’s what I assumed, thanks Nate.

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:53 am

For anyone not following HJ on social media.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:54 am

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:55 am

IJJTM wrote:That’s what I assumed, thanks Nate.

That snake would make one heck of a hat stand…

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:24 am

I don't own a HJ yet. (just a FedIV that is too big)

For me, I'm starting to think I'd be wiser just ordering a beaver HJ with the Raiders Turn from https://us.masonandsons.com/collections/herbert-johnson for $700.

As someone who probably won't own multiple fedoras, think that would be a satisfying choice as a one and only? ( I know only I can decide, but welcome to thoughts and opinions)

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:37 am

If made of FEPSA Portuguese beaver felt, which I understand is what HJ uses, it will last you for literally decades if treated well, cleaned, and re-blocked as needed.

I own two FEPSA beaver felt AB's I've worn regularly since 2006, and they're still as good as the day I got them.

One I've had rebuilt at least 3 times, and the other 4 and counting! I'm wearing the first one in my avatar.

Your base felt is what makes for the longevity of the hat, and the FEPSA felt is top end.

Good choice, regardless of who the maker is.

Regards! Michaelson

Thunderspy · Post by **Thunderspy** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:47 am

Hedji wrote:I don't own a HJ yet. (just a FedIV that is too big)

Yes I have a FedIV which fits me but I think looks too big.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:51 pm

Listing is live now, officially £495, Deep Sable rabbit

https://herbertjohnson.co.uk/collection ... rs-package" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:00 pm

Thanks jlee. Wish the box had better pictures, and just me or does it not really look like an SOC hat?

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:03 pm

Order placed. I will be interested to find out the lead times for this package.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:04 pm

That’s $698 USD when converted on today’s market.
Regards! Michaelson

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:05 pm

Dang Tuba, that quick? Any chance you could share photos once you get it?

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:11 pm

Yeah, I hope I don't regret my quick draw purchase later,

. Of course, I will get pictures up as soon as I get it!

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:20 pm

IJJTM wrote:Thanks jlee. Wish the box had better pictures, and just me or does it not really look like an SOC hat?

The hat box folds flat when not in use. That struck me as a very interesting feature.

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tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:26 pm

There are some interesting differences in the "About" section history on this new listing compared to the previous listing for the Raiders hats. Most notably the new listing removes this sentence:

Herbert Johnson was delighted at having been chosen to help design what was to become the famous iconic Indy hat.

Additionally this sentence has been modified.

The now iconic-explorer look was enhanced by snapping the front brim down and altering the original ribbon from 50mm to 38mm, resulting in the appearance of an even taller crown.

HJ's previous listings said this:

we altered the original ribbon from 50mm to 39mm

I will have to do some digging, but do any of you experts out their know what the actual ribbon size was?

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:27 pm

Well, they did say it was innovative.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:28 pm

tubasthebest wrote:
The now iconic-explorer look was enhanced by snapping the front brim down and altering the original ribbon from 50mm to 38mm, resulting in the appearance of an even taller crown.
HJ's previous listings said this:
we altered the original ribbon from 50mm to 39mm
I will have to do some digging, but do any of you experts out their know what the actual ribbon size was?

I'm no expert but I do know this is a point of contention.

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:34 pm

This is also a new line in the Specifics section of the new listing.

(Ribbon still produced on the same looms that made the original screen hats ribbon).

Perhaps Herbert Johnson have done some more research regarding the original ribbon for this offering?

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:35 pm

I’m pretty sure that most hatmakers use the original ribbon.

tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:37 pm

I know that AB and Penman claimed to have found the original supplier for the ribbon back in the day. There are some very heated old threads about it.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:05 am

From elsewhere in the forum:

NoBadDates wrote:Welcome C.A.K! Happy hatting to you!

In regards to getting the original Indy ribbon in small lengths without having to order large quantities from T.W.Brachers there is another way...

Happy to let you all know that Guy Morse Brown Blockmakers in the UK buy bulk ribbon from Brachers and sell off in lengths of 5 meters. Here is the link for the shop.
Scroll down to Galloon ribbon and choose the dark brown in 38mm.

https://www.hatblocks.co.uk/online-shop/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Happy hatting to you all!

Michelle and Team HJ

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:08 am

Does that place also sell the generic Raiders block?

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:32 am

IJJTM wrote:Does that place also sell the generic Raiders block?

Considering it is a "common, classic shape," I would guess so, but I couldn't pick it out of a lineup. HJ 'OC' Raiders doesn't not look like this one: https://www.hatblocks.co.uk/product/cb167/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thecoolmiester · Post by **thecoolmiester** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:04 am

I also bought the hat cuz YOLO

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Thunderspy · Post by **Thunderspy** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:55 am

thecoolmiester wrote:I also bought the hat cuz YOLO

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Didn't you already just buy one?

I like your style!

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:19 am

Lead times are currently at 8-12 weeks

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Kungaloosh · Post by **Kungaloosh** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:23 am

Does anyone know if Streets of Cairo is available in Deep Sable Beaver?

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:25 am

Kungaloosh wrote:Does anyone know if Streets of Cairo is available in Deep Sable Beaver?

To the best of my knowledge it’s only rabbit. Most likely because that is what was worn in the film. Michelle may be able/willing to do a beaver version of it but I’m not 100% positive on that.

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tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:37 am

I received an email last night from Herbert Johnson that due to an error I wasn’t charged shipping when it paying for my order, so I will receive an additional invoice for that. Just something to be aware of.

I wonder if she would allow a change to beaver felt… not sure if I would change anyway.

Indiana_Nate · Post by **Indiana_Nate** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:39 am

tubasthebest wrote:I received an email last night from Herbert Johnson that due to an error I wasn’t charged shipping when it paying for my order, so I will receive an additional invoice for that. Just something to be aware of.

I wonder if she would allow a change to beaver felt… not sure if I would change anyway.

That’s a bummer. Was it Michelle that emailed you?

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tubasthebest · Post by **tubasthebest** » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:41 am

No, it was not Michelle. It was a Denise F. In Customer Service.