Is Penman Still In Business?

[backstagejack]

This is sad to hear. I really hope he gets better.

Is it me or do Indy vendors tend to have it rough when it comes to health

[IJJTM]

I could totally be out of line in saying this, and I probably am, but just because his assistant said that he isn't making the hats for the movie doesn't necessarily make that true. What his assistant said could be honest to God truth, but personally, I won't buy that answer until Lucasfilm or whoever confirms the hatmaker for the film. I mean, if he was making the hats, he most likely had to sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) which bans him from talking about it until he is allowed to. If the assistant gave us some ambiguous answer, then that would basically confirm that he's at least in the running, but denying it keeps him safe NDA-wise.

Again, I could be talking out of my butt here, and I'm sorry if that came across as callous or anything else close to that. I truly hope that John is doing alright; I just find his recent actions a little suspicious, and sick just seems too vague to me. That's just my two cents, and it's totally fine if you disagree with me.

[The Aviator]

It would irk me if he was in fact working on the new hats and had put across that the delay was due to illness.

I do not know John personally and have only bought a hat from him 10 years ago (before the hat I’m currently waiting on), with some interaction here when he was a member. I’m confident in saying if he has put the message out that he is ill then that’s what’s happening. If he was bound by an NDA he could say personal reasons, family matter etc. Or better yet, not say anything. John is honest to a fault and I would find it out of character, from what I know, for him to say he was ill, building up lead times to double what they were, stop taking orders, automatically refund clients because he was making the Indy 5 hats. 30 hats at most? Just doesn’t make sense unless there is underlying problem.

Bdgsi that is worrying, I’m a June 2020 order, had an arrival for some time in April confirmed in March. Emailed at the beginning of this month to highlight I’m not too concerned about lead times and to wish him well but have had no response since.

Best

Gerry

[IJJTM]

Yeah, it would make a lot more sense for a different excuse to be used if he was making the new hats. Now I’m just really confused about why people have been getting refunds.

[Indiana Jeff]

Is it me or do Indy vendors tend to have it rough when it comes to health

I think it seems that way because so many of our vendors are one man operations.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Texan Scott]

Remote, but if LF had say a dozen hats made for CS, they may not have absolutely needed another vendor. Is Steve Delk still around, or is he totally out?

[Indiana_Nate]

I would wait for confirmation on this, but I believe Steve Delk is out. John has said previously that he is currently in possession of all of Steve’s blocks and equipment.

As important as it may be to make the hats for Indy V, I would hope that he wouldn’t push all outstanding orders aside (or refund as we are now seeing). It seems out of character for him to use an illness as a red herring.


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[backstagejack]

As important as it may be to make the hats for Indy V, I would hope that he wouldn’t push all outstanding orders aside (or refund as we are now seeing). It seems out of character for him to use an illness as a red herring.


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Yeah if he was secretly working on Indy5, refunding orders and telling folks he was out due to illness would be very bad form. I don't see a reputable vendor doing as such. He could easily say he had so much work he couldn't take anything new on. Inventing a sickness is uncalled for.

I would take it at face value until there's a reason to think otherwise. I'm unsure why anyone would think different at this juncture.

[Indiana Jeff]

Speculation needs to be kept to a minimum.

As I mentioned above, John has always been a single man operation. If he is ill, all production shuts down. He doesn't have a staff to carry on without him. In fact, John has always handled all of his own communication, ordering and promotion/social media. He's been doing the work of three or four people. That he has an assistant answering his communication speaks to him not being available to manage the work for right now.

Texas Scott made contact with Penman Hats and received a direct answer. John is not working on Indy 5 hats and he is ill. That's as simple an explanation as we can get and as direct a source as is available.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Kungaloosh]

Well, this stinks. On top of the issues with suppliers and the virus, this happens. Great! I got a refund this morning and they didn't even tell me why. No letter, no note, no nothing. I ask why and they tell me he's sick. Did he catch the virus? If Penman croaks it's the end of Penman Hats and the end of Adventurebuilt, because he bought all of Delks equipment and there's no one to replace him. He refunded us, so you know its serious!

[bantufo]

What are the differences between HJ's currently adopted Poet block versus Penman / Delk versions from a few years before HJ changed their specs over to match? Don't they all share the same general flat-top, straight-sided block and shape at this point or is someone actually out there making something different than what everyone's using with the same Portuguese felt? If so, why wouldn't production resort back to HJ as their supplier if there's virtually no distinction at this point?

[IJJTM]

Well, this stinks. On top of the issues with suppliers and the virus, this happens. Great! I got a refund this morning and they didn't even tell me why. No letter, no note, no nothing. I ask why and they tell me he's sick. Did he catch the virus? If Penman croaks it's the end of Penman Hats and the end of Adventurebuilt, because he bought all of Delks equipment and there's no one to replace him. He refunded us, so you know its serious!

Kungaloosh, would you mind saying what you had on order?

What are the differences between HJ's currently adopted Poet block versus Penman / Delk versions from a few years before HJ changed their specs over to match? Don't they all share the same general flat-top, straight-sided block and shape at this point or is someone actually out there making something different than what everyone's using with the same Portuguese felt? If so, why wouldn't production resort back to HJ as their supplier if there's virtually no distinction at this point?

I don’t fully understand what you’re trying to get across, but HJ’s blocks are apparently exact copies from the original hat, while Penman/Delk have tweaked their blocks through trial and error across many years. Not to mention that Penman obtained the KOTCS block from Delk, so if you want one from that movie, Penman is the obvious choice, but like Kungaloosh said, this is troubling if he is closing up shop.

[jlee562]

What are the differences between HJ's currently adopted Poet block versus Penman / Delk versions from a few years before HJ changed their specs over to match? Don't they all share the same general flat-top, straight-sided block and shape at this point or is someone actually out there making something different than what everyone's using with the same Portuguese felt? If so, why wouldn't production resort back to HJ as their supplier if there's virtually no distinction at this point?

Depends on who you ask. There is a minor contingency of folks who think the current HJ block is a "recast" of Steve's Raiders block. For a variety of reasons I find that claim to be somewhat nonsensical, but somewhere out there on the interwebs there is a video of two headless torsos purporting to put an HJ hat on a Delk block and claiming they are the same.

Penman has separate Raiders blocks for beaver and rabbit felt, but that seems to be based on his proprietary formulations.

[IJJTM]

I sent an email a couple of days ago to John (I'm assuming his assistant answered, though), and the reply I got was, "Since you are so far out I’m hoping he recovers so no refund at the moment."

This has me confused; I would think that they would give refunds to people further out like me, who is supposedly getting my hat in November instead of people who ordered last year. Any idea what the thought process behind this is?

[Ridgerunner58]

What are the differences between HJ's currently adopted Poet block versus Penman / Delk versions from a few years before HJ changed their specs over to match? Don't they all share the same general flat-top, straight-sided block and shape at this point or is someone actually out there making something different than what everyone's using with the same Portuguese felt? If so, why wouldn't production resort back to HJ as their supplier if there's virtually no distinction at this point?

Depends on who you ask. There is a minor contingency of folks who think the current HJ block is a "recast" of Steve's Raiders block. For a variety of reasons I find that claim to be somewhat nonsensical, but somewhere out there on the interwebs there is a video of two headless torsos purporting to put an HJ hat on a Delk block and claiming they are the same.

Penman has separate Raiders blocks for beaver and rabbit felt, but that seems to be based on his proprietary formulations.

The last time I visited John he had a modern HJ in his hands and spent some time explaining the differences between his hats and the current HJ. I can’t recount everything he said but from what he showed me they are very different from each other.

[IJJTM]

Can you remember any points that he mentioned? That seems like a very interesting conversation that I would’ve loved to hear.

[Indiana_Nate]

Can you remember any points that he mentioned? That seems like a very interesting conversation that I would’ve loved to hear.

I second that. I know there are HUGE differences between an Everyman and an HJ, and even an ABL CS and an HJ but I’m very interested to hear John’s take.


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[jlee562]

What are the differences between HJ's currently adopted Poet block versus Penman / Delk versions from a few years before HJ changed their specs over to match? Don't they all share the same general flat-top, straight-sided block and shape at this point or is someone actually out there making something different than what everyone's using with the same Portuguese felt? If so, why wouldn't production resort back to HJ as their supplier if there's virtually no distinction at this point?

Depends on who you ask. There is a minor contingency of folks who think the current HJ block is a "recast" of Steve's Raiders block. For a variety of reasons I find that claim to be somewhat nonsensical, but somewhere out there on the interwebs there is a video of two headless torsos purporting to put an HJ hat on a Delk block and claiming they are the same.

Penman has separate Raiders blocks for beaver and rabbit felt, but that seems to be based on his proprietary formulations.

The last time I visited John he had a modern HJ in his hands and spent some time explaining the differences between his hats and the current HJ. I can’t recount everything he said but from what he showed me they are very different from each other.

Are we talking difference in block shape, or components? My comment was speaking more to the block shape.

Steve often intimated about some tricks he had to 'deaden' the felt which I presume John also employs. There might also be some differences in shellac/stiffener use, as well as water protection. The HJ sweats are a little thin and not especially high quality, so Penman probably has the edge there. I don't know how much more room for variation there is on top of that.

[Ridgerunner58]

I remember him specifically pointing out differences in how he flanged the hat and sewed in the sweatband (his are further in so the bottom is inside - and his stitching is better) And of course the bow was different as was the finish on the felt. He described differences in the block shape and while I think I could sort of see what he was talking about it was pretty subtle. It didn’t help that the colors were slightly different making the penman look newer and more defined.

[IJJTM]

Thanks for sharing that with us Ridgerunner, that's very interesting.

[Kungaloosh]

Kungaloosh, would you mind saying what you had on order?

I just wanted a Adventurebilt Legacy Collection The Raider, but I guess I'll just have to settle for a Herbert Johnson Raiders Sable Beaver Turn Poet instead.

[Ridgerunner58]

Kungaloosh, would you mind saying what you had on order?

I just wanted a Adventurebilt Legacy Collection The Raider, but I guess I'll just have to settle for a Herbert Johnson Raiders Sable Beaver Turn Poet instead.

Not sure that counts as “settling,” but I admit the ABL is a very cool hat.

[IJJTM]

Every cancellation for a hat I've seen is for an ABL Raider... Has anyone had/heard of a canceled hat that wasn't an ABL Raider?

[IJJTM]

Kungaloosh, would you mind saying what you had on order?

I just wanted a Adventurebilt Legacy Collection The Raider, but I guess I'll just have to settle for a Herbert Johnson Raiders Sable Beaver Turn Poet instead.

If I were in your shoes, I would wait a few weeks to see what HJ's 40th Anniversary hat has to offer.

[Indiana_Nate]

Kungaloosh, would you mind saying what you had on order?

I just wanted a Adventurebilt Legacy Collection The Raider, but I guess I'll just have to settle for a Herbert Johnson Raiders Sable Beaver Turn Poet instead.

If I were in your shoes, I would wait a few weeks to see what HJ's 40th Anniversary hat has to offer.

Kungaloosh, IJJTM took the words out of my keyboard. I would definitely hold off until the announcement of HJ's 40th Anniversary Poet. I found out some of the final details today, and it is poised to be something very special and unlike anything that they've offered before. Michelle has worked incredibly hard to bring all of this together, so I don't want to say anything that might ruin the reveal. I will say that it's all running right on schedule so the wait shouldn't be too much longer.

[The Aviator]

Launch for the HJ 40th Anniversary is the 12th of June, so nearly there!

Best

Gerry

[Chose Poorly]

Having just purchased a hat from Penman’s existing inventory and had it ship almost immediately, I can at least share that there are still a handful of hats John has on hand from cancelled orders, showroom pieces etc. that Anna can process for purchase and ship out. IJJTM shared them on the Post ‘em Up thread but it feels appropriate, if not more appropriate to share them here on the thread about Penman’s current status as a hat vendor.

As last we checked and with my hat removed, in size order they have the following available…

Moss green with copper ribbon beaver 21 1/2
AB Raiders 22
Sahara rabbit w/ brown ribbon 22 1/4
HH alternative color 22 3/8
Raiders beaver 22 1/2
Temple beaver 22 3/4
Raiders beaver 23 1/4
Raiders rabbit 24
Raiders seaplane beaver 24
Granite grey beaver dark grey ribbon 24 3/8

Prices match those listed on his website. Email info@penmanhats.com for more info.

I did inquire about John on a more personal level, and as some have already shared, I received the below response citing covid impacts, personal health issues, and a more troubling personal betrayal of some sort.

“I’m not at liberty to say much but His business has been hit hard because of covid. His health is a issue for sure then there was someone who took advantage of him while he was down. He has been through ####.

The purchase of this hat will be very helpful for him.

Anna”

So, for those interested in helping John, the best and only thing we can do right now is purchase the hats he has available if they fit into our collections. I asked Anna to keep me updated if anything changes, especially if there is more I can do to help, like contributing to/sharing a medical cost focused GoFundMe or similar if one is created.

More to come… if more comes. Other than my new hat.

[tubasthebest]

Thanks for inquiring more about John's status. It is not fun to hear he is going through a rough time. I wish him well.

I couldn't pass up the opportunity to get another hat of Penman quality, and not have to wait the 7 months to a year to get it, so I also jumped on this. The Raiders beaver 22 1/2 is shipping my way this weekend.

[IJJTM]

Dang, I didn’t hear anything about someone taking advantage of him, but I’m really hoping he does better.

[Canyon]

So sorry to hear that John is in a bad place. I sincerely wish him the very best.

Looking forward to catching up with him at some stage.

[Charybdis]

Nice to have an update after waiting on this all summer. Unfortunately, no hats in my size but thanks for sharing the news. Prayers for John and to a recovery on all issues: health and business.

[Mitch LaRue]

yeah, let me echo what's being said...
very, Very sorry to be hearing Bad news about John
...
I've always wanted nothing but the best for him and was always proud to have been among his earliest customers

Hopefully, he can rally, turn things around and pull himself out of this

[Chose Poorly]

I'm really glad I could help, even in as small a way as buying a hat. I'm excited for it to show up next week so I can wear it proudly in John's honor. I also feel lucky to have landed an ABL lid with the future a bit up in the air. Bucket list item for sure, and arriving the week of my birthday no less!

[Chose Poorly]

Per my last communication with Anna, we may see some activity from John in the next month or two. No guarantees obviously, but at least it didn’t sound ominous or pessimistic even.

[TenuredProfessor]

Per my last communication with Anna, we may see some activity from John in the next month or two. No guarantees obviously, but at least it didn’t sound ominous or pessimistic even.

Good to hear, thanks Chose Poorly.

I've ordered three hats from John and each time he messaged me that they were ready, I drove down to his shop to pick them up, which usually led to us grabbing lunch and a beer around the corner. He's a truly generous and warm guy and I hope he's on the road to recovery.

[IJJTM]

I was looking at my two ABLs a bit, and when I compared the two letters from Steve, I was comparing the two signatures from John, and they just don't look like the same person signed them. I got the one on the left in July with my CS, while the right one is from my Raider, which was ready-made, and I got it pretty recently. I think the left one might've been signed by Anna, while the right one was signed by John back when the hat was made in April of 2020, or maybe I'm just looking into something too much, and John just changed his signature in a year. It just seems too different compared to others I have seen.

[Chose Poorly]

I was looking at my two ABLs a bit, and when I compared the two letters from Steve, I was comparing the two signatures from John, and they just don't look like the same person signed them. I got the one on the left in July with my CS, while the right one is from my Raider, which was ready-made, and I got it pretty recently. I think the left one might've been signed by Anna, while the right one was signed by John back when the hat was made in April of 2020, or maybe I'm just looking into something too much, and John just changed his signature in a year. It just seems too different compared to others I have seen.

Too add to the mystery, the ready made ABL CS Travel fedora I received had no signature on it from John. Just the printed Steve signature.

[IJJTM]

I didn't realize I forgot to post the picture, thanks for letting me know!

[Chose Poorly]

I was looking at my two ABLs a bit, and when I compared the two letters from Steve, I was comparing the two signatures from John, and they just don't look like the same person signed them. I got the one on the left in July with my CS, while the right one is from my Raider, which was ready-made, and I got it pretty recently. I think the left one might've been signed by Anna, while the right one was signed by John back when the hat was made in April of 2020, or maybe I'm just looking into something too much, and John just changed his signature in a year. It just seems too different compared to others I have seen.

Going off of the picture of the letter on the Penman Hats website, the signature on the right that came with the ABL Raiders fedora is very close and likely John's real signature, though the one on the website doesn't have a stroke at the top of the "J" like both of these do. Signatures are never exactly the same, so that slight variation makes sense. To my eyes, the signature on the left is definitely not John's signature. Could have been Anna, or a family member, perhaps.

As I mentioned, my letter came with no signature, which surprises me less than somebody signing on John's behalf since that gets into weird territory legally, not that the letter is legally binding in any way. My hat also had no writing inside the sweatband, along with some other unfortunate maladies that led to me sending it back for a refund.