My trip to Flight Suits

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:52 pm

Yeah, Rundquist, you're right. Not everything is cut and dry. Oh that it were so! In a perfect world everybody would have positive experiences in the marketplace. I can only speak from my own experience and my limited experience with Wested has been positive through and through.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:10 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Yeah, Rundquist, you're right. Not everything is cut and dry. Oh that it were so! In a perfect world everybody would have positive experiences in the marketplace. I can only speak from my own experience and my limited experience with Wested has been positive through and through.

The Wested is a great jacket. I wasn't trying to argue that.

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:42 am

As I understand it, if it is a custom fit job and it was made incorrectly by an error on their part, then they will remake the jacket and no extra cost. In fact, it says on their website that they will remake a made-to-measure itme for free. When they have to remake a jacket, the original usually it ends up on the clearance page.

This is a good sign. If they stick by it, that is great. But the person I
was corresponding with didn't exactly give me the confidence that would
make me want to buy one that had any custom features.

I would hope that they would do this for people. I know that they have
always had great customer service, and I am in no way disputing that
fact. They always answered my questions very fast, and always were
gracious to talk too, so I do not doubt they had the customer service
you describe, but the extra costs of the things I needed, which other
vendors do not charge for, plus the fact that I could not get a refund if
I was not happy with the jacket just put me off.

I wish I was an off the rack size. I actually like their A-2 also. But alas,
I am not going to take anything to chance.

Flathead

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:57 am

Rundquist wrote:The Wested is a great jacket. I wasn't trying to argue that.

I didn't take it as such. Hey, and don't forget the Flightsuits jacket ain't too bad itself.

SHARPETOYS · Post by **SHARPETOYS** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:23 am

Boy i am lucky. I must have the perfect body because my off the rack Flightsuits fit me perfectly. I"ll tell my lady her guy has the perfect body.LOL

Mr. Bill · Post by **Mr. Bill** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:39 am

How lucky are we to be able to have several great sources for such high quality gear to argue about...without which we would all be wearing wanabe modified bomber jackets.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:33 am

Nothing wrong with the 'wannbe bomber' jackets either! That's what most of us started out with! (grins) Regards. Michaelson

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:40 pm

Rundquist wrote:Flightsuits (Gibson & Barnes) has gone through some major changes in the last year. Basically the owner’s son has taken over. He’s made some policy changes that I’m not happy with quite frankly.They still make the finest Indiana Jones jacket on the market, bar none (although how long this will last is up in the air as far as I’m concerned). I’m in the process of getting everything I want out of them while I can...

PS- Customer service does matter and strange things are happening at Gibson & Barnes.

It’s perhaps my misguided belief, but customer service is already suffering at G&B and it is probably a good idea “getting everything” you want from them now as you say before things get even worst.

...As far as FS’s satisfaction garauntee goes, I’ve never heard of anybody yet having problems. This might change though, especially with the changing of the guard. I’m in the process of getting a lambskin Expedition with a long body and regular sleeves. I’m also having a nickel zipper put on it. I was given the song and dance about the jacket being non refundable. That doesn’t bother me as I know that the jacket will be what I asked for. If not, I have no doubts that they will rectify any problems.

Again, it is my belief that they will rectify any problem ONLY if it has to do with a simple exchange for another jacket perhaps with a shorter or longer sleeve, or body length OR just a simple return. They will possibly correct any wayward stitching if need be which I have had them do once. But they wont rectify problems as far as doing any other alterations that I’m aware of.

This is the Flight Suits general Guarantee as it appears on their website.

6 Month Guarantee: "We will exchange standard sizes for another standard size. Or you can upgrade to a made-to-measure item. We will alter or remake your made-to-measure purchase free. We are so confident of our quality that we guarantee stitching and zippers for as long as you own the garment."

On made to measure items they suggest sending you an item in the closest size first to have you try on. It’s pretty unlikely that they would mess up a made to measure item especially after getting a sizing referenceand if they did, they'd fix it.

Again, I am confused by these statements or have been talking to the wrong G&B representatives as late. It is true that they want you to ‘bracket’ you size by trying something you believe is closest to your fit first, and then perhaps consulting them again if it does not fit as to what they would suggest trying next (just as if you were in their store trying on jackets) to get as close as you can to what will fit. But my understanding now is that they have already made a policy change and no longer offer made-to-measure jackets (unless you already have a pattern of one on file) and ALL they offer to do now IS the rather simple procedure of interchanging “a long body and regular sleeves” or vise versa. They WILL NOT do any alterations to the shoulders, or take up the sleeves, or take in the chest or body of the jacket, or anything else which would customize the jacket in any way.

And, if I’m not completely unable to reason today, that would seem to affect the “6 Month Guarantee” as to an “upgrade to a made-to-measure item” since it’s ‘no longer offered,’ as is the entire options page ‘no longer offered.’ I’ll assume you know more about this than I apparently do, but I also understand that they will not make an Expedition in any other hide than goatskin or lambskin. So there is no other choice of hide even if you are willing to place a custom order regardless of whether it would be in a normal off-the-rack size or not.

It seems to me, the only thing left of the old FS as of now IS the quality of their Off-the-rack sized jackets (and I’m not to sure how long that will last) and the 30 day exchange/return policy. Certainly there is no one there left from my Rolodex that has helped me in the past of which I can name at least four people gone. I’ve been told that this new policy they have recently implemented may once again change at some point in the future should their contract with American Airlines diminish or change. But right now it seems like pie in the sky.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:08 pm

Hey, is someone willing to make a blind call to Flightsuits and ask (under the premise of possibly looking to buy a jacket) what their current policy on new and custom jackets is? And if it differs from what their website currently says, can that be pointed out to them? Maybe we can try to clear things up a little...

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:21 pm

Please feel free to do so. I have told you all that I know having dealt with them since their recent policy change. If you can find out any more from them that they are willing to tell you, or that I have learned, you are a better man than I am. But my impression is, depending on who you talk with, they are getting a bit weary of explaining and do not volunteer anymore than they need to, and only respond when asked specific and well directed questions.

parsa · Post by **parsa** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:21 pm

Boy, I really whacked the hornets nest didn't I?

My impression, which could very well be wrong, was that they will make off-the-rack jacket sizes on order. If they happen to have one that was not purchased in the showroom that suits you, then you can just buy it. The sales girl said they don't have room in their outlet store for one of every size. I'd say there were less than 10 Expeditions on the rack, and none on the clearance rack. Many of those jackets were pretty small in size, and the larger sizes tended to be tall and short rather than regular. They didn't seem very eager to measure me for a custom made jacket. It was more like, "sorry, we don't have your size, but you can order a 46 regular, and we'll make one for you." They only had a medium brown lamb and a dark brown goat for nearly all the jackets I saw. I did see one jacket (not an Expo) in a lighter brown cowhide.

It seems to me that the way to go would be to at least have most of the regular sizes available for someone to purchase or to be ready for instant shipping. When a particular size sold, they could make a new one. Even if there was no room in the front showroom, they could store them somewhere. Of course, if they still make custom tailored jackets, then all this is moot. I just got the impression that that was not the case, however.

Perhaps someone who has dealt with them before should contact them and ask them to respond to this thread.

Parsa

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:53 pm

_ wrote:As I understand it, they still have mine (custom patterns) from August 2000...

I've talked to a few fans who were around back in 2000, and they all told me that FS didn't finalize their pattern until at least late 2000/early 2001.

How would you have had your personal patterns on file with FS since August of 2000? Were these patterns for a coat other than their Indy coat?

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:43 am

Sounds like the newbie is calling _ out, perhaps a history lesson is in order. Or perhaps the newbie should do his own research in the vaults to find out why _ would have the oldest FS patterns.

IndianaGuybrush · Post by **IndianaGuybrush** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:00 am

Michigan Smith wrote:Sounds like the newbie is calling _ out, perhaps a history lesson is in order. Or perhaps the newbie should do his own research in the vaults to find out why _ would have the oldest FS patterns.

I think this is exactly the kind of 'favorite forum pecking order' we try so hard to avoid here. It sounded more to me like That Brower Kid was confused and asking a question to clarify what he thought was contradictory information. Michigan Smith I don't know you, I have nothing against you, and I don't want to start any bad blood between us, but I think you should be a bit more understanding to the "newbies," try not to use the word in a pejorative sense, and if you're going to talk about someone in your post I would suggest you use their forum name. I haven't been here for as long as you have but I believe this to be forum etiquette, and integral to keeping this community the friendly and tightly knit place it is. I'm sorry if this sounded confrontational, and I'm certainly not trying to 'put anybody in their place' but I think it's important that we keep if friendly here.

zohar · Post by **zohar** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:48 am

That Brower Kid wrote:
_ wrote:As I understand it, they still have mine (custom patterns) from August 2000...
I've talked to a few fans who were around back in 2000, and they all told me that FS didn't finalize their pattern until at least late 2000/early 2001.

How would you have had your personal patterns on file with FS since August of 2000? Were these patterns for a coat other than their Indy coat?

Long story short, there probably wouldn't be an Expedition as we know it if it weren't for _.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:39 pm

Thanks for coming to my defense, IndianaGuybrush. You were correct, I was simply asking a question. Had I known that that right is reserved only for people who've been around as long as Michigan Smith, I'd have never taken it upon myself to join in the discussion. At least not until I'd put enough time in here.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:29 am

I decided to follow Michigan Smith's advice and "do my own research in the vaults."

According to indyfan.com's database, on July 21, 2000, someone posted a message containing issues they'd found to be wrong with the current Westeds, at the time, including side strap location and assembly, and the lack of underarm gussets.

On July 26, 2000, someone posted how they'd been in contact with Mr. Noel Howard regarding a film-used coat which was in his possession. But unfortunately, they were disappointed when they'd found out that Noel Howard's coat was from a sequel. They were hoping he had an original jacket used in Raiders, so that they could inquire about specs.

On August 2, 2000, someone announced that they would have personal access to a jacket which was said to have been used in the filming of Raiders. This was barely a week after they were hoping to have gotten specs from Noel Howard. Pretty short span of time to have suddenly tracked down such a rare item, IMHO.

On August 7, 2000, someone reported their findings after having examined the movie jacket. And believe it or not, many of the discoveries this person made were exactly what they said had been wrong with Westeds, in a prior message (see above).

And finally, on August 25, 2000, someone stated that there were two companies with prototypes based on their findings in the works. If the jackets were yet to be finalized, I don't see how anyone would have had their personal patterns on file, unless they meant their patterns were on file for a jacket other than the Indiana Jones jacket. This would make more sense. So, I don't see anything wrong with my initial question.

I've refrained from naming names here, simply because I can't say for sure who posted the data displayed on the links (though they're all signed with the same screenname). I'd rather not have this turn into an argument, and I certainly don't want to upset anybody. I'm simply posting what I found. I would like to thank you, Michigan Smith, for convincing me to pursue this "history lesson."

zohar · Post by **zohar** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:24 am

Maybe you don't see the name because you're not logged into Indyfan's forum, but I see _'s name attributed to all of those posts. Good job on finding all of that, as it serves as a great history lesson for all of us.

I own an Expedition (Thanks primarily to the glowing reviews of The_Edge and Williamson), and I personally greatly appreciate _'s (and a few other folks, notably Michaelson and Brody) tireless quest to help make it what it is.

Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:20 am

_ was, indeed, the man who personally travelled to the collectors house and gathered the data off the stunt Raiders jacket. (Was that 2000??!!

Good heavens, time's flying by!!) Regards. Michaelson

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:06 am

Michaelson wrote:_ was, indeed, the man who personally travelled to the collectors house and gathered the data off the stunt Raiders jacket. (Was that 2000??!! Good heavens, time's flying by!!) Regards. Michaelson

I know I came a little late to the party, but I sure would love it if somebody who was around back then could dig up the photos of the stunt jacket for me to see. I'm sure those who've seen the photos once wouldn't mind seeing them again.

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:21 am

I've talked to a few fans who were around back in 2000, and they all told me that FS didn't finalize their pattern until at least late 2000/early 2001.

How would you have had your personal patterns on file with FS since August of 2000? Were these patterns for a coat other than their Indy coat?

TBK, When you preface your question with statement that contradicts what someone else states (a site admin no less), I'd interpret that as confrontational. BTW, I was just kidding, and I'm glad you did your reasearch and now know the history, since now it will stick with you and you can appreciate it more. I understand there were no pic's allowed when _ saw the jacket. He was only allowed to view and measure/diagram it. He may(?) not have even been allowed to handle it, as I recall he said it was in bad shape (dried out, cracking leather) and needed to be restored.
NOTE TO SELF: replace "newbie" in spellcheck software with "rookie" or "FNG".

T.E. Lawrence · Post by **T.E. Lawrence** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:26 am

Wow! I thought this thread would never end - I just kept scrolling on and on. Okay My two cents. Simple and to the point. I saw my friends ToD Wested and was not impressed. It had many rips from casual wear. I went to Flightsuites and tried on every off the rack Expadition in my size and found the perfect fit. I have Riden this thing like a bronco and could barely put a scratch on it over a years time and through three different countries and still not a blemish. I finally distressed it with a can of accetone, a wire brush and a big stone. I have not had to work that hard since I used to dig ditches. I LOVE MY FS JACKET!!! Having said that I have since learned that My Friend ordered his ToD Wested in a softer, Lighter leather to accomodate So Cals 3 seasons of warm to hot weather - hence the lack of durability. I would like to own a Wested ROTLA just because of its herratige, but gimme' my Flightsuits jacket for real adventures.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:41 am

Not wanting to start another 'jacket war' here, if your friends Wested was lambskin and he put it to very hard use, it will naturally distress quite quickly - the lamb is a dressy jacket, not meant for adentures except on screen and those of the 'trip to the supermarket' urban variety.

The Wested Cowhide is as tough as nails and can take a lot of punishment and the Wested Goat is even tougher still!

What I'm saying is, it's a little unfair to imply that Westeds are not good for adventures and Flightsuits are - it's not about who made the jacket as such, it has more to do with the type of leather and it's sutability for one's purposes, IMO.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:20 pm

ob1al, you are correct.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:33 pm

Bare in mind that FS made several individual Indy jackets prior to 2000 for folks (a few lurk around here 8-[ and no, I'm not one of them), so there are actually two different points of reference when you're talking about FS jacket Indy patterns. The production patterns were the ones we were wrestling around with back 3-4 years ago, based on an original Raiders stunt jacket in the private collection, but there are some that precede those dates by several years. Don't get confused (at least anymore than we've alreayd made you at this point!

) Where you think it's contridictory, it's actually two different things. Regards. Michaelson

T.E. Lawrence · Post by **T.E. Lawrence** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:47 pm

ob1al, my intent was not to slam Wested since I have never owned one. And I admitted that my friends ToD was a soft leather that did not hold up well to urban use. My primary intent was just to say that I am very pleased with my FS. Again ,I have no place to judge a product I have never owned I have simply shared my opinion based on what I have seen. Obviously Wested is and outstanding Jacket that holds up to Indys adventures. I hope this clears things up a bit.

SkyChief · Post by **SkyChief** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:55 pm

Michigan Smith wrote:When you preface your question with statement that contradicts what someone else states (a site admin no less), I'd interpret that as confrontational.

I meant no harm. I simply stated that I'd talked to some fans who were around back then and they told me that FS didn't finalize their Indy jacket design until late 2000 or early 2001. According to this indyfan.com post from January 24, 2001, they were right.

Michaelson wrote:Bare in mind that FS made several individual Indy jackets prior to 2000 for folks (a few lurk around here 8-[ and no, I'm not one of them), so there are actually two different points of reference when you're talking about FS jacket Indy patterns. The production patterns were the ones we were wrestling around with back 3-4 years ago, based on an original Raiders stunt jacket in the private collection, but there are some that precede those dates by several years. Don't get confused (at least anymore than we've alreayd made you at this point! ) Where you think it's contridictory, it's actually two different things. Regards. Michaelson

I was under the impression that this thread was about the production jackets. I apologize. Which jacket, then, did _ have his personal patterns on file for in August of 2000? I'm guessing one of the pre-production fan jackets, or perhaps a military coat, considering the production Indy coat was still in the prototype phase in January of 2001.

Michigan Smith, what does "FNG" stand for?

My trip to Flight Suits

FS vs. Wested