My trip to Flight Suits

parsa · Post by **parsa** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:55 am

I went out to the Flight Suits factory El Cajon, CA and it was definitely an interesting experience.

I planned on making my trip fruitful as it's a good 40 minutes away, and I wanted to get my gas money worth. I hit two surplus stores (Stars and Stripes and GI Joes) , and found 7 geocaches in the El Cajon area. Not a bad trip.

I walked into Flight Suits at about 3 pm. There were about a dozen Japanese tourist in there looking at jump suits and fabric jackets (maybe they were Vegans too.

). I found the Expeditions and looked at what they had. They had a 44 regular, and a 46 short, but no 46 regular. One thing I learned from the visit was that I need a custom fit if I want a jacket to look good on me. The outlet is really for jackets that they couldn't sell, and they seem to just make the jackets to an off-the-rack standard. Even a 46 regular would not have looked perfect on me. My shoulders looked good in the 44, but my chest felt better in the 46. I also noted that the back was lower than the front due to certain aspects of my abdominal anatomy. I need to add an inch in front.

Anyway, I stood around for a long time as the one girl in front was helping the Japanese guys. Then two Mexican girls with limited English abilities walked in and managed to ask for work applications. Then a pretty brunette walked in and asked for the same. I glanced in the back and noted a lot of people back there, but nobody seemed to notice the increasing chaos in the show room. I just stood there smiling and went to stand closer to the sales girl. She noticed me and said she'd help me when she was done with all the guys. Finally, after a long while, another girl came out to help me. When I asked if they had any 46 regulars, she went to check, then returned to say they only had very small sizes in the back. She helped me try on several jackets and confirmed that a 46R would be best. However, I would have to order one to get it. I just didn't feel very commited at that point. Did I really want to pay $400 for a jacket that wasn't really fully customized to my body, and if they were willing to custom tailor it for me, what if I didn't like it after it was done? The better price and custom tailoring of their competitor is looking increasingly promising.

Parsa

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:03 pm

Wow, what an experience! I'd love to see Flightsuits myself someday.

I know what you mean about not wanting to pay $400 for a jacket that's not an exact fit. Although I know the Flightjackets Indy is a great jacket (I got to see Minnesota's in person) I was sold on the Wested not just because of its heritage and quality, but because of the price. If I could afford to own a ton of leather jackets, I'd have one from everybody, but with my budget, I felt I had to make my purchase a good and wise one from the start!

parsa · Post by **parsa** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:10 pm

Yes, I know what you mean. I only have to work a couple days to earn $400, but it still seems like a lot to me. I still remember when $400 would pay an apartment rent for a couple months. Hehe.

The quality was great. The jacket would last forever, but it was really an issue of style and looks on me personally.

Parsa

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:51 pm

parsa wrote:Yes, I know what you mean. I only have to work a couple days to earn $400, but it still seems like a lot to me. I still remember when $400 would pay an apartment rent for a couple months. Hehe.

I want your job!

Shoot, five bucks is a lot of money to me. That's what happens when you're a graphic artist/musician married to a fine artist; there's a law which says you're not allowed to make money. I'm glad that there's quality Indy gear available for almost anybody's budget. From Akubra and Wested to Optimo and Flightsuits, everybody can be happy!

[/i]

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:32 pm

I was fortunate to purchase three fully custom jackets from them before the recent changes, a G-1, and two Expeditions. I say fortunate, because they kept the patterns on file so I can order again without having to pay for the initial pattern fee just as I would an off the rack size. It’s unfortunate that they have suspended their custom made-to-measure services and options for those who do not have patterns already made that are on file. About all they do now is do jackets by combining various standard sleeve lengths with body lengths, and only in specific leathers, namely either goat or lamb for the Expedition.

I’m reluctant to say much more about the current state of G&B, since I figure that’s really up to the moderators of this forum or the So. California folks more intimately familiar with their situation. But fella’s, I do think it is now about time before others make fruitless journeys expecting something other than what now is. IMHO.

BTW: If they did make jacket for you, and it didn’t fit, you still have 30 days to return it. They are still good about returns or exchanges at least.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:35 pm

Just to be thinking out loud, I wonder how long they KEEP those custom patterns, especially if you have only ordered custom once, and that was several years ago?

With the changes in the wind, one can only ponder. Regards. Michaelson

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:55 pm

It was my understanding that they remain fully committed to doing so and I was assured they would continue that policy forever and ever, til’ the end of time OR until they decided not to, whichever comes first.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:57 pm

Ah yes, the old 'which ever comes first' warranty! (grins) Thanks, Rixter! Regards. Michaelson

skywlkr · Post by **skywlkr** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:56 pm

When I bought my Wested the Flightsuits option was almost double the price of the Wested.

Luke

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:05 pm

An authentic piece of gear, the same that Indy wore, custom made to your own specifications with the option of return for free alterations?!?! I don't see why people buy elsewhere!

Good point, and what customer service, I spoke to Jerry and Peter this morning about a custom 3/4 length coat, and their main concern was not the coat, but making sure I was happy! I love those guys!

Regards
I J

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:54 pm

1.) You get what you pay for. FlightSuits' Expedition is well worth the $400 price tag. Nothing else comes close.

2.) Their return policy is six (6) months. NOT thirty days.

3.) I've come to believe that "made-to-measure" is unnecessary and a silly sales ploy.

Harry Steele · Post by **Harry Steele** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:03 pm

According to Flightsuits' (now Gibson & Barnes) latest catalog, the satisfaction or return guarantee is now 30 days.

Defects in materials or workmanship are repaired free of charge during the first year, and "after that" zipper and stitch breaks are repaired, free, as long as you own the jacket.

Cheers,
Harry

Harry Steele · Post by **Harry Steele** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:12 pm

The Flightsuits website still states the satifaction or return guarantee is 6 mouths -- but I don't think it's been updated. The catalog is copyright 2003. You might want to call to be sure of the current return policy.

I do want to add that Flightsuits/Gibson & Barnes does make very high quality jackets. I'm a Westie man, but I've had a few FS A-2s and tried out an Expedition.

Cheers,
Harry

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:55 pm

No getting around it, there are many here who think Wested is the way to go, and for what are good reasons too, particularly if price is the bottom line. Then again, there are those, mostly gone or conspicuously silent now, who would have at one time argued just as vigorously reasons for owning an Expedition - I am not one of them. The topic has been bantered about ever since I started frequenting this board, just search the archives. In the end it is for you (pl) to decide. I only recount to folks what I chose.

The main thrust of my post was to respond to the initial one by Parsa and possibly draw a little more attention to the current situation with G&B so potential members WHO ARE interested in going with any of their items check them out a little more thoroughly since the web site is badly out of date, and the current catalog has literally had pages ripped from it in the past months. Some of the latter posts indicate that there is a lot of contradictory and confusing information about this vendor’s recent policy changes and it isn’t as though nobody knows what the story is. I’m not sure why this hasn’t been discussed by now. It would seem to me there is an obligation to members not to hold certain vendors exempt from the same scrutiny applied to others. That is all.

Harry Steele · Post by **Harry Steele** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:03 pm

Nicely stated Mr. R. If I might ask, what's been dropped from the catalog?

Harry

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:14 am

I usually don't even bother to post when wars over jacket vendors start and I certainly don't mean to start one here. I only want to express my opinion about my reasons for the purchase that I made. I fully appreciate the fact that everyone has the right to purchse what they want from whomever they want, including buying someone else's used jacket.

I am not as obsessive as some are with screen accuracy. If my jacket has four more stitches on a seam than Harrison Ford's jacket does, I don't care. It just means that I am probably bigger than he is and if my jacket had the same number of stitches, it wouldn't be sewn on all the way. I am exaggerating to make my point.

I have seen some of Flightsuits jackets and I think they are excellent products. But, I didn't ever even consider purchasing one. Unless they make some jackets for Indy lV, they will never be able to make the same claims as Wested. I would have bought a Wested even if it was half as good and twice the price. For one reason and one reason only. It was made by the guy that made them for the movies. That is what is important to me. Fortunately for me, the jacket I wanted was also the best bargain out there. And it is custom made. My jacket choice was a no-brainer for me.

For these same reasons, I would prefer to purchase a David Morgan whip. His were in the movies, other whip makers weren't. Now, there are some people that make excellent whips besides David Morgan. Unfortunately, David chooses to cash in on his claim and charges a premium price for his whips.

My choice for THE HAT would of course be a great looking Indy fedora by Herbert Johnson. With the current state of affairs at HJ, I think I will bide my time and hopefully HJ will produce what I am looking for sometime in the future.

So, for me, the quest goes on for some items, but not for the jacket. The best price and custom made by the man himself, it was an authentic lamb Wested Raiders jacket for me. Based on my requirements, I chose, wisely. Everyone else is free to choose however they desire.

prettybigguy · Post by **prettybigguy** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:58 am

Parsa,
It's too bad you had such a negative experience @ Flightsuit.. It's always a drag when you go someplace with high expectaitions and the results don't live up. Especially if you drive a long way. Having a whole showroom full of tourists would be pretty aggrevating to any salesperson. That's probably why she didn't spend as much time with you as she should have.
When I went down there (the drive from Long Beach is a lot further than 40 minutes!) I had the same problem finding my size. It was a good thing COW's own Chamorro was with me because he wears the same size jacket that I do. Dropping that kind of dough on a jacket you can't try on would be a tough decision I agree. I ordered my Expo in the Seal Chrome Goat size 52 Long and I made sure that they measured my arms to make sure they made them long enough. Should you decide to go b ack, I recommend you pick out the size jacket you normally would wear or have yourself measured by a tailor prior to going in. If you have any spots that could be a problem (long arms, wide midsection, etc.) be sure to let them know . They'll set you up right.

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:48 am

3.) I've come to believe that "made-to-measure" is unnecessary and a silly sales ploy.

Only if you can buy an off the rack size I could see it being silly to you.

But if your like me, a tall guy with short arms, then I don't find this silly
at all, but a very good point to purchase from a vendor.

If I am paying over $400.00 for a jacket, I will always ask to have the
sleeves shortened, and because I am tall, I need an extra inch added to
just the front of most of my jackets in order for them to look correct when
zipped up. If a vendor can't do this for me, or they want to charge me
an extra 50 bucks for the sleeve length adjustment, and another 75 to
a hundred bucks for the added inch in the front, and now the jacket is
approaching the $600.00 range, that is unacceptable to me, and I will not
buy from them. Oh, and that is not even mentioning the fact that Flightsuits
also charges up to $125.00 EXTRA if you request a different leather than
what is stated on the webpage for any jacket they have. So, when I asked
for an Expedition jacket, made from Horsehide instead of lamb or goat, with the sleeves
shortened, and an inch added to the front, they told me that the price was
$428.00 for the original jacket, then add $50.00 for the sleeve alterations,
then add $75.00 for the extra length in front, and then ADD another $125.00
for the horsehide on top of the regular priced leather, not instead of it,
and you have a jacket that now priced at almost $700.00!!
And, I would not be able to return it if something was wrong with it
because it was a custom, made to order jacket! I
will NEVER, EVER pay that kind of money for a jacket I can't return if
there is a problem. If you think thats silly, god bless you for being so
well off financially. To me, that is unacceptable. I have the e-mails
from them to prove all of this. I saved them to show people that I am not
just blowing smoke, and that they charge for things that others do not.

I have purchased jackets from Wested, and Aero Leather in Scotland,
and both places did not charge a singe PENNY for the alterations I
mentioned above, or a change in leather, nor did they refuse taking back the jackets for any
reason if I was not 100 percent happy with it, even with the changes I
made to them.

If you think that is silly, then you are a very lucky person to be an
exact off the rack size, and have enough money to buy another expensive
jacket if the first one has something wrong with it.

But for me, I will never think that that kind of customer service is ever silly.

I have seen Flightsuits jackets in the flesh, thats why I wanted one for
myself, because they looked really nice. But I would never buy one for
myself because they told me these things in their reply to me when I inquired about a
jacket for myself.

In my opinion, when the price would be more than two times the price of
a Wested, it was not worth it to me to take a chance on something I could
not return if there was a problem.

Flathead

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:26 am

I have to agree with Flathead. There is nothing silly about having a made to measure jacket. It's not a sales ploy but rather a point of good customer service. Again, the Flightsuits jacket I saw was very nice, and if it was an even $400, then it indeed is worth the price. But I can't imagine having to pay hundreds more for something you're forced to live with if you are not happy with the product. I can't afford that much money for a jacket, either, else I might own one someday.

I had a few basic options added to my Wested (extra pocket, etc) and was surprised that it was literally only a couple bucks extra for them. But everything else was part of the set price of the jacket itself. I also find it difficult to get off the rack sizes to fit me perfectly, and to get an exceptional quality jacket which FITS me perfectly, and at such an astounding price, makes me thimnk that Hades must be getting pretty cold about now. I could understand that a horsehide option would be more expensive than the other leather options, but to charge a lot of money just to make sleves shorter makes me believe that they have all their sleeves pre made and waiting to staple onto any jacket body, whereas Wested makes every part of their jacket for each individual garment.

Now I'm not arguing the quality of the Flightsuits jackets versus Wested jackets, because they are both exceptional jackets, but I'd rather pay for exceptional customer service anyday. And to touch on something Bufflehead said, people are VERY impressed when I tell them the lineage of my Wested, and even more so when I tell them how much I paid for it!

bink

Band Director Jones · Post by **Band Director Jones** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:40 am

I recently ordered a FS Expedition and had to return it because the sleeves were too short. Two different people (the sales manager and my salesperson) told me that the return policy for all items was 30 days. Now, I did order a jacket off the clearance section, but when I asked about the return policy I was told (and this is a direct quote from one of the emails):

"All our products, including clearance items, have the same 30 day return policy. If for any reason you are not satisfied you may return the jacket for a full refund, excluding shipping charges."

This was just a few weeks ago. So take it for what you will. I can say that the jacket was very well built and looked fantastic.

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:54 am

"All our products, including clearance items, have the same 30 day return policy. If for any reason you are not satisfied you may return the jacket for a full refund, excluding shipping charges."

I basically got the same reply from them, but with the following ADDED to
it: "You will not be able to return your jacket if it has any custom, made
to order features, as this jacket would not be able to be resold as new".

That was the reply I got from them, and that is again unacceptable to me if I was to have
paid close to $700.00 bucks for the jacket I would have ordered.

Both Wested and Aero will take back any jacket, for any reason, PERIOD.

Now, if you were to wear the jacket, and it showed any signs of that wear
then that is a different story. But to not be able to return a jacket, if there
was a problem, is not a vendor that I will do business with.

Flathead.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:31 pm

The_Edge wrote:3.) I've come to believe that "made-to-measure" is unnecessary and a silly sales ploy.

Someone that is a perfect off the rack size may feel this way. Especially if the custom tailoring costs you a considerable amount extra. Not to imply that there is anything wrong with Burlington Coat Factory's products, I am only using them as an example. It would be ludicrous to believe that anyone shopping for a suit would prefer an off the rack suit from Burlington Coat Factory to a custom tailored suit made to fit you perfectly by a true craftsman. The only question that remains for anyone is if they are willing to pay the additional price that a tailor will charge. That is the only reason that people buy off the rack clothes. It is cheaper. With the Indy style jacket, considering that you can get it custom made for a reasonable price, there is no logical reason to buy off the rack.

Speaking of an Indy style jacket, this is a very tight fitting jacket. It begs for a custom fit. It is not like many of the styles today that are very loose and baggy fitting. In styles such as these, the clothes or jackets are very forgiving in their fit. So what if it is a little too big and bulky. The bigger the better. Not so with an Indy jacket. We all want them to fit just so. People are always talking about whether they can even wear a sweater under their jacket or not. Dude, when you can't fit even a light sweater under a jacket, that is a tight fit. That is not something that I want to buy off the rack.

I don't think anyone fretted over their measurements to send to Peter more than I. I had found COW a couple months before I decided to join. I knew I was going to order a jacket even before I joined and was already taking my measurements. I finally built up the nerve to order and sent off my measurements and everything worked out fine. It was not as bad as I thought. I am a happy customer and that is all that really matters.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:36 pm

Flightsuits (Gibson & Barnes) has gone through some major changes in the last year. Basically the owner’s son has taken over. He’s made some policy changes that I’m not happy with quite frankly. They still make the finest Indiana Jones jacket on the market, bar none (although how long this will last is up in the air as far as I’m concerned). I’m in the process of getting everything I want out of them while I can. I have to admit that $700 would be a bit steep for an Indy jacket (although other WW2 flight jacket makers charge in that range, including Aero). At least Parsa checked out his options (which is something that many do not). One other point that I’ll make is that although the materials and workmanship that go into an Expedition are superior to a Wested, there’s no point in paying the extra money for an Expedition if you can’t tell the difference between the two. I can tell the difference. The quality difference is important to me. To others, there’s no difference between the two beyond the price. Cheers

PS- Customer service does matter and strange things are happening at Gibson & Barnes.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:40 pm

Good 'strange', or bad 'strange'?

Regards. Michaelson

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:10 pm

If their policy has changed from six months to thirty days then I am indeed wrong. Please accept my apologies in this matter.

As for the "made-to-measure" quip I stand by my comment. I'm curious how these oddly proportioned folks do their shopping for their daily clothes if their measurements are so extreme?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:15 pm

In my case, I either put up with long sleeve shirts with to short sleeves (eventually just having the sleeves shortened to short sleeve configuration), or purchase larger shirts and have the sleeves shortened. The sleeves look good, but the shirt is pretty baggy on me. To purchase an off the rack jacket with long enough sleeves, I usually settle for a 44R. If I get a 42R (my normal size), the sleeves are usually 2 to 3 inches to short. That's why you occasionally see me post the question 'how long is the sleeve, measured from the shoulder seam to the end of cuff'? If it's shorter than 25 inches, I'm out of the race. For me, custom is the only way I can get a jacket to fit me correctly. If I don't, short sleeves, or baggy rest of garment to compensate. Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:22 pm

The_Edge wrote: As for the "made-to-measure" quip I stand by my comment. I'm curious how these oddly proportioned folks do their shopping for their daily clothes if their measurements are so extreme?

Well, it just means that often we have to "make do" with what we can find. I have a size 16 neck, but shirts with that size neck are often a tad big in the shoulders and the sleeves are almost always long. So do I buy a shirt whose sleeves fall right on me, but it chokes me every time I wear it? Trust me, I'd rather breathe. I also wear a size 35 -36 for trousers, yet how often do I find a pair with a 29" length? Almost never. I usually have to hem or cuff them.

I'd LOVE to be able to find perfectly fitting clothes off the rack with ease. However, though I'm nicely proportioned for me, my nuances aren't the norm. So If I can buy a high quality custom leather jacket made to MY measurements for considerably LESS than most places, and the customer service is second to none, I'd be crazy not to jump on it.

My Wested is one of the few items in my waredrobe which fits me absolutely perfect. No wonder I was estatic when it arrived at my door.

I'd love to be able to afford custom tailored clothing down the line, but I'm just not that rich. The jacket was a special purchase, but I can't do that every day, so I have to make it count when it matters.

bink

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:41 pm

Rundquist wrote:One other point that I’ll make is that although the materials and workmanship that go into an Expedition are superior to a Wested, there’s no point in paying the extra money for an Expedition if you can’t tell the difference between the two. I can tell the difference. The quality difference is important to me. To others, there’s no difference between the two beyond the price.

Like I said before, I would not say that the Expedition is an inferior product, it is not. Both Wested and Expos are made from very similar patterns and are basicly a jacket cut out of leather with a thin lining sewn in. It is not a complicated thing but it is tight fitting. I can't tell any difference in the quality, myself. Anytime that a group of Gearheads get together they are always comparing gear. I always hear people saying, "which jacket is that?" I have said it a bunch of times myself. Of course that is usually followed by people exchanging their jackets so they can try on something else. I have tried on an Expo and I don't see any difference. As I said, if it weren't for the movies I would be glad to have either one of these jackets. Since there is no difference in the quality as far as I can tell, price and fit would be the determining factors. But, because of the movies, I want the one that was in the movies and that hangs in the Smithsonian Museum. The fact that the jacket that I want is also the least expensive is just icing on the cake.

The Wested belongs in a museum. Whoops, it is already in one. That is so cool. The Wested that I saw hanging in the Smithsonian on Sunday, is in a glass case and people can look at it but they can't touch it. I can touch mine.

Everyone is free to their own opinions. I know what is important to me and that is what I seek. That is what I would suggest to anyone looking to buy one of these jackets. Check out what is offered by the various venders. Find out what is important to you. Think about how you plan to use the jacket, and be an informed consumer. Once you determine what you want, I hope you get exactly that and that you are as happy with your jacket as I am. When someone posts how perfect their new jacket is, I am always happy for them regardless as to which vendor they got it from. I know what I want and I got it. I hope everyone else does the same.

Band Director Jones · Post by **Band Director Jones** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:45 pm

The_Edge wrote:I'm curious how these oddly proportioned folks do their shopping for their daily clothes if their measurements are so extreme?

While I don't think I am oddly proportioned, I do like the idea of a custom, made to fit garment. I have a few shirts and pairs of pants that have been custom fitted for me, and I must confess, they fit much better than any store bought item. Occasionally, I run into a problem where I have to compromise with the fit of a store bought garment. Sometimes the sleeves will fit perfectly, but the shirt will be too tight in the shoulders. Also, I have noticed, and others have too, that not all clothes are made the same. A large by one manufacture may (and often is) different from another’s. Even fitted sizes such as a shirt that is 16 neck 33 sleeves, do not always fit the same. Knowing that an item is being made to your specific measurements provides not only that custom made feel, but also an added bit of comfort know that it will fit you correctly (or at least to you measurements). Besides, we are all not built the same; shouldn't the tailoring of our clothes reflect that?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:51 pm

Band Director Jones wrote:Besides, we are all not built the same; shouldn't the tailoring of our clothes reflect that?

Yeah, do you know how hard it is to find off the rack shirts with sleeves for all three arms?

I think it was generally a wise idea to make standard sizes so the mass public can buy clothes that fits them. However, when they started to alter the definition of "standard sizes," then it all went to poo poo.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:02 pm

I think it is ludicrous for someone to argue that off the rack is better than custom tailored, if you can afford it. If all off the rack, mass produced clothing made in a sweat shop in a third world country, with sizing standards that vary widely, fits you perfectly in all circumstances, then you are very lucky.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Well, I think the word 'ludiicrous' a bit strong (and EXREMELY difficult to spell, for heavens sake!

), point taken. There WAS a time not so very long ago that a custom fit was pretty much for the folks who just wanted the little 'extras' that would make a garment a bit nicer. Standard off the rack sizing DID work, and it did for ME in the not so distant past. Things MUST have changed in the last few years or so, as I've not found a single thing in the off the rack size I used to wear that fits me anymore, with the exception of Carhartt products. They seem to have kept the old U.S. standard sizing pat, and are the exception to that rule. Once again, this is just what this long armed galoot has experienced to date! Regards. Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:48 pm

You really can't buy anything today without trying it on first. The sizes are all over the place.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:24 pm

Ain't it the truth!

Regards. Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:55 pm

As for the "made-to-measure" quip I stand by my comment. I'm curious how these oddly proportioned folks do their shopping for their daily clothes if their measurements are so extreme?

Oddly proportioned? Measurements so extreme? I am actually 6 feet
1 inches tall, I weigh exactly 175 pounds, I have a 36 inch waist and a
42 inch chest. This is in direct proportion to all specs for normal sized
people. As a matter of fact, according to the military, a well proportioned
person, that being male, should have a 6 inch taper from chest to waist.
I fit that exactly. So extreme proportions is not my case. I also fall
right in the middle in the weight catagory too, so that is no problem for me.

I do however have arms that are exatly 1 inch shorter than what is called
out for my size I gave above. And because I am tall, I like to add the
inch to my jackets so they fit better. If I was to get a tall size, the sleeves
would then be WAY to long for me! So I get the regular sizes, and just
have it adjusted accordingly.

Every single off-the-rack long sleeve shirt, jacket, sweater or what-have-you always
has sleeves that are 1 inch too long for me. That is why, if I am going
to drop almost 700 bucks for a jacket, it better well be made to fit me
or I will not take it. Period.

So, I look at it this way. A Wested is less than 50 percent of that cost,
and its made to fit me exactly, and I can send it back if its not right. Why
would I want to spend twice that amount, and not be able to send the
product back?

And just to settle my point, here is the reply I got from Flightsuits, whole
and nothing removed so you can see what they told me. They may have
told you something different, but this is what I was told when I asked
about an expedition. And by the way, I wanted it in a russet goat after
seeing pictures of Rundquist Russet colored expedition he got awhile
ago. This is there response to my asking about an expedition for myself:

"Jim,
I do have russett goatskin but it is a veggie tanned goatskin. I believe
the jacket you saw was chrome tanned russett goat, which we no longer
carry. I can make it out of russett horse or veggie russett goat. The price
difference for the horse is $128.00 and the goat is $178.00 this is in
addition to the cost of a lambskin expedition jacket.
The sleeve altering would run about $50.00, and the extra length would
be an additional $75.00 or so. If there is anything else I can do for you
please let me know. However due to the alterations required, and
since it is not a standard material for this jacket, the jacket would be
non-refundable.

Best Regards,

Dan Longbrake
Sales Manager"

This is what they told me back in December when I asked about the
jacket. There is no way in you know what I would ever drop 700 bucks
on something I could not return.

And yes, A-2 jackets do run about the same price from Aero, but I could
send it back no matter what. That is their policy. So that is not as big
a deal as the Expedition. If the A-2 didn't fit, I could send it back for
either my money back, or another one.

Just my experience with Flightsuits is all I am saying here. Your milage
may vary. If you can fit an off the shelf size exactly, you can buy a
Flightsuits jacket for about $430.00 in lamb or goat, and it will be one
heck of a great jacket that you can send back within 30 days if your
not happy with it. But in my case, I could not do that, so I will not chance
it not being right, and possibly be out almost 700 bucks.

Flathead

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:09 pm

'Nuff Said.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:29 am

"6 inch taper from chest to waist?" I fit that category..... the question is, going from what direction?

Regards. Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:30 am

That made my morning, Michaelson!

Shishak · Post by **Shishak** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:33 am

since it is not a standard material for this jacket, the jacket would be
non-refundable

I'm curious as to what this means. It seems to me that what they are saying is that since it is a custom job you would not be able to get your money back, but there is nothing saying that you can't return it for alterations or have it remade if it doesn't fit. There's a difference between non-refundable and non-returnable. It would be nice to get some clarification on this to help out others who may be interested in purchasing a Flightsuits jacket.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:47 am

Yes, they are saying that you can't get your money back for a custom jacket. Sure, you could have alterations done, but I think the issue is that after already paying a LOT of money for the jacket, if it DOESN'T fit the first time around, you have to pay even MORE to get it rectified. With Wested, this is practically a non-issue, since Peter will do everything in his power to right a wrong.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:21 pm

I’ll add a few more points. As far as the off the rack vs. custom argument goes, both The_Edge and I have had better fitting off the rack Expeditions than their custom Wested counterparts (of which I’ve had three). Obviously this was our collected experience. Others might have a different perspective, but I just wanted you guys to know where The_Edge was coming from. As far as Flight Suits custom charges go, I will agree that they seem to be a bit excessive. As far as hide substitution goes, I will say that the historical veggie goat that FS uses to make their historical A-2s from is a very expensive hide. I don’t know if it’s worth $178 more, but it’s an awesome hide nonetheless. The goatskin historical A-2 is the most expensive jacket in their catalogue by the way. If you were to see that hide in person, you would understand why they charge more for it. As far as FS’s satisfaction garauntee goes, I’ve never heard of anybody yet having problems. This might change though, especially with the changing of the guard. I’m in the process of getting a lambskin Expedition with a long body and regular sleeves. I’m also having a nickel zipper put on it. I was given the song and dance about the jacket being non refundable. That doesn’t bother me as I know that the jacket will be what I asked for. If not, I have no doubts that they will rectify any problems.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:06 pm

I'm glad your Flightsuits experiences have all been good ones, Rundquist. I don't wish poor customer service on anybody here, so it's good to hear that you've been treated well.

I find it pretty funny that your off the rack jackets fit you better than your custom Westeds. It just seems logical that it should be the opposite. I wonder if that would change if you had the opprtunity to be measured by Peter himself? Not that I'm saying you sent poor measurements, but I always think the actual tailor has his or her own personal methods to guarantee a good fit. With me, my Wested is the best fitting jacket I've ever owned.

Even though I've never been to Flightsuits or owned a jacket from them personally, what really troubles me is the "changing of the guard" that seems to be happening there. A number of vendors seem to be going through the same thing, and though change can frequently be a good thing, it doesn't always turn out that way.

I'd love to own an HJ fedora, but most everything I hear about the current state of the hats keeps me away from them. I hope Flightsuits doesn't end up in a downward spiral they can't pull out from.

bink

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:54 pm

There's a difference between non-refundable and non-returnable. It would be nice to get some clarification on this to help out others who may be interested in purchasing a Flightsuits jacket.

This is true. However, think of it this way. If the jacket was made without
the extra length to it like I wanted, how could they alter it to fix it? They
couldn't add material to something that is already cut, and I would be
stuck with a $700.00 jacket that didn't fit me.

Or what if they shortened the sleeves too much by mistake, which does
happen as anyone here can testify to from time to time. If that happened,
then again, how could they alter it if they didn't leave enough material to
let out? True, they could replace the sleeves, but then the leather may
not match in color and grain. And again, I would be out $700.00.

No other vendor of any other high end jackets, such as Aero, Eastman
Real McCoys NZ, Wested and the like have a policy like this. They also
don't charge so much more extra for a different leather type. They will
normally deduct some for the leather that is not to be used, because they
will still have it to make another jacket from. But to add $178 dollars
on top of the price of the lamb is not going to get my money. Its not
like they would be out the lambskin. Its a replacement for gosh sakes.
Its not like the jacket would be goat or horse on the outside, and have a
complete lambskin jacket sewn into the inside of it.

Anyway, its too much for me to want to try to experiment with, so I will
leave the flightsuits jackets to you guys who are lucky enough to fit off
the rack sizes. I envy you if you trust them that much with your money
not to make mistakes. Just remember this, they have a "clearance"
section, and if you read the descriptions of some of those clearance items,
they state that the jacket is mismatched in color, or grain, or the body was
made too short, or the customer did not like it because it had too many
wrinkles in the leather. Mistakes happen, but I am not willing to pay for
it. All vendors have these types of clearance items, but the ones I
mentioned will always take the jackets back for a return or a refund no
matter what. And they are the ones that are getting my money.

As for the question of the taper

well, lets just say that its all
in the eyes of the beholder as you could always hang upside down, and
you would not be lying if you said your taper was 6 inches from top to
bottom!

Flathead

Band Director Jones · Post by **Band Director Jones** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:06 pm

As I understand it, if it is a custom fit job and it was made incorrectly by an error on their part, then they will remake the jacket and no extra cost. In fact, it says on their website that they will remake a made-to-measure itme for free. When they have to remake a jacket, the original usually it ends up on the clearance page.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:29 pm

Band Director Jones wrote:As I understand it, if it is a custom fit job and it was made incorrectly by an error on their part, then they will remake the jacket and no extra cost. In fact, it says on their website that they will remake a made-to-measure itme for free. When they have to remake a jacket, the original usually it ends up on the clearance page.

BDJ, for clarification: "they" being Flightsuits or Wested?

I went to FS prior to the "changing of the guard" and customer service was top notch and the jackets are nice too. I've not purchased a Flightsuits so I cannot comment on their return policy, but Wested definitely works well with customers.

I am pretty sure that if Wested makes a mistake on the measurements (example: give you 25 inch sleeves when you asked for 23 inch sleeves), then they will fix it for free, but if you give them measurements and they output those same measurements but it doesn't fit due to the purchaser's mistake, then they typically don't fix it, although maybe there's been some exceptions.

Band Director Jones · Post by **Band Director Jones** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:42 pm

Indiana Texas-girl wrote: BDJ, for clarification: "they" being Flightsuits or Wested?

Sorry about the confussion. By "they" I mean Flightsuits.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:07 pm

Six inches of taper, huh. Well we wouldn't have to worry about the front of our Westeds riding up anymore, they would just dangle. And since I had my zipper switched to the right side, what is Peter going to do about my Wested jangling when it is dangling?

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:21 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote: since I had my zipper switched to the right side, what is Peter going to do about my Wested jangling when it is dangling?

Thats was the first thing I noticed about my Wested. I had it put on the right hand side, and that little zipper pull jangles away. Not really a big deal in the city, but if you are trying to sneak around a tribe of "Flavidos", you want to be as stealth-like as possible.

My next Wested, I'm keeping it British all the way. Except for the Italian Lambskin

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:48 pm

I still like it on the right side better. Mine doesn't jangle at all, of course, my six inches of taper may be going in the wrong direction.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:38 pm

FLATHEAD wrote:
There's a difference between non-refundable and non-returnable. It would be nice to get some clarification on this to help out others who may be interested in purchasing a Flightsuits jacket.
This is true. However, think of it this way. If the jacket was made without
the extra length to it like I wanted, how could they alter it to fix it? They
couldn't add material to something that is already cut, and I would be
stuck with a $700.00 jacket that didn't fit me.

Or what if they shortened the sleeves too much by mistake, which does
happen as anyone here can testify to from time to time. If that happened,
then again, how could they alter it if they didn't leave enough material to
let out? True, they could replace the sleeves, but then the leather may
not match in color and grain. And again, I would be out $700.00.

No other vendor of any other high end jackets, such as Aero, Eastman
Real McCoys NZ, Wested and the like have a policy like this. They also
don't charge so much more extra for a different leather type. They will
normally deduct some for the leather that is not to be used, because they
will still have it to make another jacket from. But to add $178 dollars
on top of the price of the lamb is not going to get my money. Its not
like they would be out the lambskin. Its a replacement for gosh sakes.
Its not like the jacket would be goat or horse on the outside, and have a
complete lambskin jacket sewn into the inside of it.

Anyway, its too much for me to want to try to experiment with, so I will
leave the flightsuits jackets to you guys who are lucky enough to fit off
the rack sizes. I envy you if you trust them that much with your money
not to make mistakes. Just remember this, they have a "clearance"
section, and if you read the descriptions of some of those clearance items,
they state that the jacket is mismatched in color, or grain, or the body was
made too short, or the customer did not like it because it had too many
wrinkles in the leather. Mistakes happen, but I am not willing to pay for
it. All vendors have these types of clearance items, but the ones I
mentioned will always take the jackets back for a return or a refund no
matter what. And they are the ones that are getting my money.

As for the question of the taper well, lets just say that its all
in the eyes of the beholder as you could always hang upside down, and
you would not be lying if you said your taper was 6 inches from top to
bottom!

Flathead

I've never felt that I was gambling when I've purchased from Flightsuits, in fact just the opposite. Their money back guarantee is stated in their catalogue as follows:

"We want everything you buy from us to be 100% satisfactory. When you receive your order, inspect it, try it on, and wear it for 30 days. If you’re not 100% satisfied, send it back. We’ll replace it, repair it, or give you back your money."

This is the Flight Suits general Guarantee as it appears on their website.

6 Month Guarantee: "We will exchange standard sizes for another standard size. Or you can upgrade to a made-to-measure item. We will alter or remake your made-to-measure purchase free. We are so confident of our quality that we guarantee stitching and zippers for as long as you own the garment."

On made to measure items they suggest sending you an item in the closest size first to have you try on. It’s pretty unlikely that they would mess up a made to measure item especially after getting a sizing reference and if they did, they'd fix it.

As far as the jackets on the clearance racks go, it is unfair to say that somebody had to "pay" for Flightsuit's mistakes. Most of the jackets on the clearance racks that have a mismatch in grain (i.e. wrinkles) for instance, are jackets that are brand new (never worn) and are sold at a discount only because FS only sells immaculate items as new.

binkmeisterRick wrote:I'm glad your Flightsuits experiences have all been good ones, Rundquist. I don't wish poor customer service on anybody here, so it's good to hear that you've been treated well.

I find it pretty funny that your off the rack jackets fit you better than your custom Westeds. It just seems logical that it should be the opposite. I wonder if that would change if you had the opprtunity to be measured by Peter himself? Not that I'm saying you sent poor measurements, but I always think the actual tailor has his or her own personal methods to guarantee a good fit. With me, my Wested is the best fitting jacket I've ever owned.

Even though I've never been to Flightsuits or owned a jacket from them personally, what really troubles me is the "changing of the guard" that seems to be happening there. A number of vendors seem to be going through the same thing, and though change can frequently be a good thing, it doesn't always turn out that way.

I'd love to own an HJ fedora, but most everything I hear about the current state of the hats keeps me away from them. I hope Flightsuits doesn't end up in a downward spiral they can't pull out from.

bink

I just wanted to make it clear that not everything is cut and dry. MK for instance had a jacket cut for him when he was in England last year. Peter came to his hotel room and took the measurements himself. The jacket ended up not fitting right. Peter did graciously replace the jacket for free. My point is that everyone has different experiences. I do hope that FS continues to offer the service that I’ve grown accustomed to. We will have to wait and see.