Screen Accurate Lambskin Thickness and Qualities

[CM]

Given that some here have now handled screen used jackets, what can we say about the type of lamb used and how it compares to, say, the standard Wested hide and others?

I always wondered why the LC jacket appeared to be so much thicker and stiffer than the Raiders version - what was it that created that look?

What thickness hide was used in the three?

Do the Raiders jackets surviving use striated hide or are they smooth? Brandon's truck jacket looks smooth with obvious tape caused striations, which I saw in the movie and assumed where natural.

[Stefan Hills]

The lambskin jacket of the Last Crusade jacket in the Smithsonian feels light yet very solid. The Lambskin used is not as fragile as would be expected. The testimony being that there are multiple examples of jackets that have survived the rigors and abuse they were put through during filming. Considering that they were only expected to have a relatively short term use, on the whole they have lasted pretty well.

They have a hand made feel to them which is indicative of the craftsman who put them together. What I guess I am trying to say is that don’t have a mass produced refinement to them.

In terms of the thickness...this might help...

[CM]

The lambskin jacket of the Last Crusade jacket in the Smithsonian feels light yet very solid. The Lambskin used is not as fragile as would be expected. The testimony being that there are multiple examples of jackets that have survived the rigors and abuse they were put through during filming. Considering that they were only expected to have a relatively short term use, on the whole they have lasted pretty well.

They have a hand made feel to them which is indicative of the craftsman who put them together. What I guess I am trying to say is that don’t have a mass produced refinement to them.

In terms of the thickness...this might help...

Cool. 1mm. Thanks. I remember seeing early publicity photos of Last Crusade and I could see the jacket had a very different drape from Raiders. It looked thick and I made an assumption it was a different, heavier hide - I assumed cowhide, wrongly. The jacket had such a different vibe to it, along with the size of those pocket flaps.

I remember finding a firm lambskin A2 in the late 1980's down here which looked similar and was around 1.2mm.

The Westeds I bought back almost 20 years ago all had a kind of hand made slightly amateur feel to them, like a local artisan had made them. It was such a contrast to the G&B when I got it.

[mark seven]

Peter was asked this question and he said-"In the good old days when men were men and only shaved on Saturday nights before hitting the town,there was a tannery called 'Turn Leathers' at Tordmorden in Yorkshire UK,the leather they produced was Lambskin,not the supple skin of today but the thick stuff that could almost stand up by itself in the corner.That tanning was done in giant wooden vats and the skin was pegged out to dry,not modern chemicals but Whale Oil(now banned).This tannery used to contract the English lambskins/sheepskins supplied by us and it was this leather used in all the Indy films,with the exception of a few temple of doom jackets which we did not make.Sadly 'Turn Leathers' went to the wall and currant tanners only have the modern machinery and systems designed to produce super-fine skins so we struggle to get that look.Cheers,Peter"

[Indiego Jones]

In terms of the thickness...this might help...

Cool. 1mm.

You have to look the bottom leather edge. The upper is folded/glued/stitched.

LC leather is 0.8 / 1.0 mm thick. Almost all skins are something in the middle.

But not always larger thickness means a heavier weight.

Regards.-

[Stefan Hills]

Peter was asked this question and he said-"In the good old days when men were men and only shaved on Saturday nights before hitting the town,there was a tannery called 'Turn Leathers' at Tordmorden in Yorkshire UK,the leather they produced was Lambskin,not the supple skin of today but the thick stuff that could almost stand up by itself in the corner.That tanning was done in giant wooden vats and the skin was pegged out to dry,not modern chemicals but Whale Oil(now banned).This tannery used to contract the English lambskins/sheepskins supplied by us and it was this leather used in all the Indy films,with the exception of a few temple of doom jackets which we did not make.Sadly 'Turn Leathers' went to the wall and currant tanners only have the modern machinery and systems designed to produce super-fine skins so we struggle to get that look.Cheers,Peter"

Kinda regards me of my son, Indiana’s lambskin jacket from Wested...

[CM]

Peter was asked this question and he said-"In the good old days when men were men and only shaved on Saturday nights before hitting the town,there was a tannery called 'Turn Leathers' at Tordmorden in Yorkshire UK,the leather they produced was Lambskin,not the supple skin of today but the thick stuff that could almost stand up by itself in the corner.That tanning was done in giant wooden vats and the skin was pegged out to dry,not modern chemicals but Whale Oil(now banned).This tannery used to contract the English lambskins/sheepskins supplied by us and it was this leather used in all the Indy films,with the exception of a few temple of doom jackets which we did not make.Sadly 'Turn Leathers' went to the wall and currant tanners only have the modern machinery and systems designed to produce super-fine skins so we struggle to get that look.Cheers,Peter"

Hi Mark. I remember this ornate explanation. Not saying the story is false but the problem with that story is it doesn't comport with the visual evidence of these jackets. Yes, it might explain the firm looking LC jacket. But it doesn't explain why the Raiders one looks so drapy and soft and obviously like lamb by comparison, which was my original point. There must be more to it. Perhaps Turn Leathers changed their process between 1980 and 1988.

The LC one looks so different that people for years speculated that it was made of horsehide or goat.

[CM]

In terms of the thickness...this might help...

Cool. 1mm.

You have to look the bottom leather edge. The upper is folded/glued/stitched.

LC leather is 0.8 / 1.0 mm thick. Almost all skins are something in the middle.

But not always larger thickness means a heavier weight.

Regards.-

Yep. Almost all the lambskin I have seen has been around 0.8. My current Wested ToD is 1.00mm and feels reasonably thick.

[mark seven]

The LC one looks so different that people for years speculated that it was made of horsehide or goat.

yes,you're right,i remember people insisting that the LC jackets were cowhide!

[Michaelson]

Well you can blame Peter for the confusion. HE told us it was cowhide on several occasions. He once told a member it was horse hide, so the confusion can be understood.

Regards! Michaelson

[CM]

Well you can blame Peter for the confusion. HE told us it was cowhide on several occasions. He once told a member it was horse hide, so the confusion can be understood.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, but he was only able to do this because the jacket hide looked so different from previous lamb. I find it fascinating that the man who made the jackets had so few accurate memories about how the thing was made and even what it was made from. It certainly makes you reconsider the accounts of eyewitnesses. And don't get me started on Debora Nadoolman's 'memoires.'

[Hammerklavier]

Well you can blame Peter for the confusion. HE told us it was cowhide on several occasions. He once told a member it was horse hide, so the confusion can be understood.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, but he was only able to do this because the jacket hide looked so different from previous lamb. I find it fascinating that the man who made the jackets had so few accurate memories about how the thing was made and even what it was made from. It certainly makes you reconsider the accounts of eyewitnesses. And don't get me started on Debora Nadoolman's 'memoires.'

I agree, the shape of their hero LC collar keeps changing.....

[CM]

Well you can blame Peter for the confusion. HE told us it was cowhide on several occasions. He once told a member it was horse hide, so the confusion can be understood.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, but he was only able to do this because the jacket hide looked so different from previous lamb. I find it fascinating that the man who made the jackets had so few accurate memories about how the thing was made and even what it was made from. It certainly makes you reconsider the accounts of eyewitnesses. And don't get me started on Debora Nadoolman's 'memoires.'

I agree, the shape of their hero LC collar keeps changing.....

As Michaelson has said many times, over the years, part of Wested's ever changing patterns has been driven by us fans who saw different things they wanted in a jacket - accurate and not so accurate.

Peter must have been told dogmatically on numerous occasion what pocket flaps should be, how the straps should look and whether the collar was the right shape. Peter was always keen to give us what we wanted and, boy, we wanted so many different, sometimes contradictory things. For consistency this must have been a nightmare.

And Peter must have lost track. I asked him about the hides of the jackets in 2000. He told me over the phone - and I took notes on this - "I made all three jackets in lambskin.' Now, apart from the continuity of lamb comment, this is interesting because this was from a time when Peter still was saying he made the Temple of Doom jackets. He said the only difference between the ToD and the Raiders was an additional inch of length.

He may well have made jackets for ToD but they weren't the once we know.

[Stefan Hills]

Well you can blame Peter for the confusion. HE told us it was cowhide on several occasions. He once told a member it was horse hide, so the confusion can be understood.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, but he was only able to do this because the jacket hide looked so different from previous lamb. I find it fascinating that the man who made the jackets had so few accurate memories about how the thing was made and even what it was made from. It certainly makes you reconsider the accounts of eyewitnesses. And don't get me started on Debora Nadoolman's 'memoires.'

I agree, the shape of their hero LC collar keeps changing.....

As Michaelson has said many times, over the years, part of Wested's ever changing patterns has been driven by us fans who saw different things they wanted in a jacket - accurate and not so accurate.

Peter must have been told dogmatically on numerous occasion what pocket flaps should be, how the straps should look and whether the collar was the right shape. Peter was always keen to give us what we wanted and, boy, we wanted so many different, sometimes contradictory things. For consistency this must have been a nightmare.

And Peter must have lost track. I asked him about the hides of the jackets in 2000. He told me over the phone - and I took notes on this - "I made all three jackets in lambskin.' Now, apart from the continuity of lamb comment, this is interesting because this was from a time when Peter still was saying he made the Temple of Doom jackets. He said the only difference between the ToD and the Raiders was an additional inch of length.

He may well have made jackets for ToD but they weren't the once we know.

Wait, Peter admitted he made the Temple jackets?

[Tibor]

Well, he made the Bantu Wind jacket in Raiders that turned up in TOD, so at least that...

[Mark Raats]

As I have mentioned to other members in PM's for there to be a completely reliable evaluation of the jackets in the archives, the task would need to be done by someone who has intimate knowledge of not only fabrics and leathers but also in how jackets are made. For someone like me who has had on numerous occasions had the opportunity to see and handle the costumes in the archives its almost impossible to formulate accurate appraisals of all of these elements - simply because its for a layman, something I know too little about.

Another thing is that they are in a state of poor repair and the condition of the leather - especially in the case of the stunt jacket - is very fragile indeed. I have not had the opportunity to see Brandon's jacket in person but it's an almost impossible task for me to give an authoritative statement (I have an opinion yes but that is all) regarding the leather type or if the feel of it is thin, soft or stiff. Likewise the lining. Because the Raiders jackets are so well worn, the lining is also faded and the surface texture has been so altered by wear and the years of storage that if I compare it to any of the 6 x jackets I own, the lining seems different in almost every respect. As I have said, that's not necessarily because it IS different, its because the fabric condition has been so compromised.

Stitching, collar stands and storm flaps are things I know little about so, I could not tell you if the tip of the collar is a certain shape or not but I DO know that I have seen a particular brand of buckle on one of the Raiders jackets. When I last saw them, the stunt jacket in the archives had no buckles on it and one of the straps was missing. In addition to this, one of the front pockets is shredded so badly on that jacket that it's almost falling off. The color of the jackets also left an impression on me in that they were much lighter than I had anticipated (especially the Raiders jackets) but I can say that for me, the leather used in the latest magnificent S&J truck jacket seems similar in weight. Interestingly, when I was last there there was what appeared to be an LC jacket hanging amongst the Raiders jackets and that specific jacket had an interesting item in one of the pockets that implied some kind of unique story of its own.

Since I have seen and handled a number of the original jackets and the one thing I DO know is that with Raiders and also with the TOD jackets, there appear to be differences in them and that there are definitely differences in-between the colors of shirts within each movie. If the jackets from TOD were recycled for LC, I couldn't say but I do know that the jackets stored in the TOD section are significantly weathered and naturally worn in a way that I didn't see in the movie so, the theory that some might have had a second outing in LC - I guess - might have merit.

The easiest ones are logically the KOTCS jackets and costumes because there are over 30 x Indy jackets in storage, they are all similarly weathered and overall they all have a honey-brown hue to them. The leather seemed much thicker and the overall condition of the jackets is very good indeed.

We are closer than ever to having many answers answered and unless you are someone who evaluates these movie costumes with a set of callipers, there will always be a lot of speculation regarding these items. In the past some of the theories have been fuelled by ego's and unscrupulous posts made here on COW and on other forums - which hasn't helped. I will certainly look closer the next time I am there but since I am in no way a costume specialist it might be that what I write of my impression, conveys a message that could be contrary to what is actually fact - and this is courtesy of ignorance.

Kind regards,
MARK

[CM]

As I have mentioned to other members in PM's for there to be a completely reliable evaluation of the jackets in the archives, the task would need to be done by someone who has intimate knowledge of not only fabrics and leathers but also in how jackets are made. For someone like me who has had on numerous occasions had the opportunity to see and handle the costumes in the archives its almost impossible to formulate accurate appraisals of all of these elements - simply because its for a layman, something I know too little about.

Another thing is that they are in a state of poor repair and the condition of the leather - especially in the case of the stunt jacket - is very fragile indeed. I have not had the opportunity to see Brandon's jacket in person but it's an almost impossible task for me to give an authoritative statement (I have an opinion yes but that is all) regarding the leather type or if the feel of it is thin, soft or stiff. Likewise the lining. Because the Raiders jackets are so well worn, the lining is also faded and the surface texture has been so altered by wear and the years of storage that if I compare it to any of the 6 x jackets I own, the lining seems different in almost every respect. As I have said, that's not necessarily because it IS different, its because the fabric condition has been so compromised.

Stitching, collar stands and storm flaps are things I know little about so, I could not tell you if the tip of the collar is a certain shape or not but I DO know that I have seen a particular brand of buckle on one of the Raiders jackets. When I last saw them, the stunt jacket in the archives had no buckles on it and one of the straps was missing. In addition to this, one of the front pockets is shredded so badly on that jacket that it's almost falling off. The color of the jackets also left an impression on me in that they were much lighter than I had anticipated (especially the Raiders jackets) but I can say that for me, the leather used in the latest magnificent S&J truck jacket seems similar in weight. Interestingly, when I was last there there was what appeared to be an LC jacket hanging amongst the Raiders jackets and that specific jacket had an interesting item in one of the pockets that implied some kind of unique story of its own.

Since I have seen and handled a number of the original jackets and the one thing I DO know is that with Raiders and also with the TOD jackets, there appear to be differences in them and that there are definitely differences in-between the colors of shirts within each movie. If the jackets from TOD were recycled for LC, I couldn't say but I do know that the jackets stored in the TOD section are significantly weathered and naturally worn in a way that I didn't see in the movie so, the theory that some might have had a second outing in LC - I guess - might have merit.

The easiest ones are logically the KOTCS jackets and costumes because there are over 30 x Indy jackets in storage, they are all similarly weathered and overall they all have a honey-brown hue to them. The leather seemed much thicker and the overall condition of the jackets is very good indeed.

We are closer than ever to having many answers answered and unless you are someone who evaluates these movie costumes with a set of callipers, there will always be a lot of speculation regarding these items. In the past some of the theories have been fuelled by ego's and unscrupulous posts made here on COW and on other forums - which hasn't helped. I will certainly look closer the next time I am there but since I am in no way a costume specialist it might be that what I write of my impression, conveys a message that could be contrary to what is actually fact - and this is courtesy of ignorance.

Kind regards,
MARK

Very wise. It also tells us that to some extent screen accurate is more about what we see on screen rather than found in assessing the real thing, since its character has altered so much, we struggle to know what some of it must have looked like. At least that's what I read in this.

[CM]

Well you can blame Peter for the confusion. HE told us it was cowhide on several occasions. He once told a member it was horse hide, so the confusion can be understood.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, but he was only able to do this because the jacket hide looked so different from previous lamb. I find it fascinating that the man who made the jackets had so few accurate memories about how the thing was made and even what it was made from. It certainly makes you reconsider the accounts of eyewitnesses. And don't get me started on Debora Nadoolman's 'memoires.'

I agree, the shape of their hero LC collar keeps changing.....

As Michaelson has said many times, over the years, part of Wested's ever changing patterns has been driven by us fans who saw different things they wanted in a jacket - accurate and not so accurate.

Peter must have been told dogmatically on numerous occasion what pocket flaps should be, how the straps should look and whether the collar was the right shape. Peter was always keen to give us what we wanted and, boy, we wanted so many different, sometimes contradictory things. For consistency this must have been a nightmare.

And Peter must have lost track. I asked him about the hides of the jackets in 2000. He told me over the phone - and I took notes on this - "I made all three jackets in lambskin.' Now, apart from the continuity of lamb comment, this is interesting because this was from a time when Peter still was saying he made the Temple of Doom jackets. He said the only difference between the ToD and the Raiders was an additional inch of length.

He may well have made jackets for ToD but they weren't the once we know.

Wait, Peter admitted he made the Temple jackets?

'Admitted'? - strange word to use. Some will probably remember a time when Wested said they made all three jackets, or at least implied this. I think there was even a line on the Wested website like 'I made a total of x jackets for all three films.' and something about making the ToD jacket an inch longer than the Raiders jacket. This was up until about 2003.

When the Noel Howard jacket came to Peter he definitely said he did not make this item and was very interested in the unusual internal gusset in the sleeve. Perhaps Peter submitted jackets for ToD that weren't used.

[afalzon]

Speaking about leather thickness, of course one cannot accurately measure it using a measuring tape or a ruler.
The only way to do it correctly is with one of these:



Another thing to note is that for example 0.8mm and 1mm thick leathers are completely different. They drape and behave totally different. The 0.2mm which if you think about is a very minuscule amount, makes a huge difference.
So it's not correct to say "about 1mm thick" because 0.8mm thick will be completely different than 1mm thick and so will the 1.2mm thick.

The leather used on Raiders jackets is thinner than what is used on LC jackets and is also tanned differently so that it is softer and more supple than the LC leather.

I hope this helps.

[CM]

Speaking about leather thickness, of course one cannot accurately measure it using a measuring tape or a ruler.
The only way to do it correctly is with one of these:



Another thing to note is that for example 0.8mm and 1mm thick leathers are completely different. They drape and behave totally different. The 0.2mm which if you think about is a very minuscule amount, makes a huge difference.
So it's not correct to say "about 1mm thick" because 0.8mm thick will be completely different than 1mm thick and so will the 1.2mm thick.

The leather used on Raiders jackets is thinner than what is used on LC jackets and is also tanned differently so that it is softer and more supple than the LC leather.

I hope this helps.

Yes, I'm sure you are right - I had come to similar conclusions. I would like to see some hide that has the LC look. I see great patterns and very nice leather, but nothing that matches. Maybe I haven't seen the right photos. The Holy Grail Jacket looks close and coveys a similarly substantial quality.

[Indiego Jones]

Speaking about leather thickness, of course one cannot accurately measure it using a measuring tape or a ruler.
The only way to do it correctly is with one of these:

Another thing to note is that for example 0.8mm and 1mm thick leathers are completely different. They drape and behave totally different. The 0.2mm which if you think about is a very minuscule amount, makes a huge difference.
So it's not correct to say "about 1mm thick" because 0.8mm thick will be completely different than 1mm thick and so will the 1.2mm thick.

The leather used on Raiders jackets is thinner than what is used on LC jackets and is also tanned differently so that it is softer and more supple than the LC leather.

I hope this helps.

In fact, it doesn't help.

You like to confuse fans with technical info, and trying them to believe jacket making is some kind of mystical weird science only a few know about it.
It's not.
And fans are not as naive as you think they are.

Every tannery in the world states the thickness in ranks (0.8/1.0 ..... 0.7/0.9 mm....etc)

Because, as you should know, leathers have different thickness in the very same skin.
And you must do the jackets using as much as possible of every skin.
So, on a jacket you have in the end different thickness, among the whole jacket structure.

And about the Raiders leather being thinner than LC leather...I'd like to know how did you managed to use the tool you pictured, on each of those original jackets???????

Cheers.-

[Stefan Hills]

“'Admitted'? - strange word to use.” What’s so strange about the word choice?

[afalzon]

Indiego Jones wrote

In fact, it doesn't help.

You like to confuse fans with technical info, and trying them to believe jacket making is some kind of mystical weird science only a few know about it.
It's not.
And fans are not as naive as you think they are.

Every tannery in the world states the thickness in ranks (0.8/1.0 ..... 0.7/0.9 mm....etc)

Because, as you should know, leathers have different thickness in the very same skin.
And you must do the jackets using as much as possible of every skin.
So, on a jacket you have in the end different thickness, among the whole jacket structure.

And about the Raiders leather being thinner than LC leather...I'd like to know how did you managed to use the tool you pictured, on each of those original jackets???????

Cheers.-

I didn't use any technical info. I said you cannot measure thickness with measuring tape and rulers which is absolutely true.

Jacket making is not some kind of mystical weird science only a few know about it, but leather making IS.
We had myriads of trouble trying to get the leathers right. It's not an easy thing to do, that's why you don't see many jacket makers using the correct leather, whether that is for Indy jackets, A-2 or other vintage reproduction jackets.
And just because our striated lamsbkin is a good match to the Rotla leather doesn't mean we got it right from the first time. You just didn't get to see the previous several failed attempts.

The main problem is that jacket makers cannot describe to the tannery exactly what they need and even if they do, there is still room for many mistakes. We have experienced that a hundred times over and suffered many losses.

And fans are not as naive as you think they are.

Wrongfully accused sir!

Every tannery in the world states the thickness in ranks (0.8/1.0 ..... 0.7/0.9 mm....etc)

Sorry sir I disagree, tanneries usually quote e.g. 1.1-1.2mm and that includes two levels of thickness. Your 0.8/1.0 includes 3 levels 0.8, 0.9 and 1.0. which is too much. For sure you can have differences in thickness in the same skin that's why thickness is expressed like this. But now you are getting too technical.

And about the Raiders leather being thinner than LC leather...I'd like to know how did you managed to use the tool you pictured, on each of those original jackets???????

No, but as you know, or if you don't then ought to know, there are certain standard thicknesses for each grade of leather depending on what you are going to use it for. (I will not get too specific because I don't want to sound too technical).
We paid and bought and tested leathers of all thicknesses available in the range and through the process of elimination ended up in the leather we use today. All the other sample jackets we made in the wrong thickness leather didn't behave or drape in the same way like in the film so they were rejected. It was actually very easy to see that so we didn't have much trouble selecting the correct thickness. On top of that we have handled jackets from every other maker and could compare because we knew the pros and cons.

As regards the leather we used in LC, if we measure it with a measuring tape or a ruler you will see that it's the same like Stefan's photo above. Joking aside, we have also tried several leathers for the LC jacket and in the process got to know every tannery in Italy. The person who entrusted us with the info we needed to make the LC jacket got tired of waiting for us to find the right leathers and make the jacket as it took in excess of 2 years. But we would not settle for any less than perfect. We make the LC jacket with leather completely custom which is why it looks feels drapes and ages like the film used one.

[Hammerklavier]

Indiego Jones wrote

In fact, it doesn't help.

You like to confuse fans with technical info, and trying them to believe jacket making is some kind of mystical weird science only a few know about it.
It's not.
And fans are not as naive as you think they are.

Every tannery in the world states the thickness in ranks (0.8/1.0 ..... 0.7/0.9 mm....etc)

Because, as you should know, leathers have different thickness in the very same skin.
And you must do the jackets using as much as possible of every skin.
So, on a jacket you have in the end different thickness, among the whole jacket structure.

And about the Raiders leather being thinner than LC leather...I'd like to know how did you managed to use the tool you pictured, on each of those original jackets???????

Cheers.-

I didn't use any technical info. I said you cannot measure thickness with measuring tape and rulers which is absolutely true.

Jacket making is not some kind of mystical weird science only a few know about it, but leather making IS.
We had myriads of trouble trying to get the leathers right. It's not an easy thing to do, that's why you don't see many jacket makers using the correct leather, whether that is for Indy jackets, A-2 or other vintage reproduction jackets.
And just because our striated lamsbkin is a good match to the Rotla leather doesn't mean we got it right from the first time. You just didn't get to see the previous several failed attempts.

The main problem is that jacket makers cannot describe to the tannery exactly what they need and even if they do, there is still room for many mistakes. We have experienced that a hundred times over and suffered many losses.

And fans are not as naive as you think they are.

Wrongfully accused sir!

Every tannery in the world states the thickness in ranks (0.8/1.0 ..... 0.7/0.9 mm....etc)

Sorry sir I disagree, tanneries usually quote e.g. 1.1-1.2mm and that includes two levels of thickness. Your 0.8/1.0 includes 3 levels 0.8, 0.9 and 1.0. which is too much. For sure you can have differences in thickness in the same skin that's why thickness is expressed like this. But now you are getting too technical.

And about the Raiders leather being thinner than LC leather...I'd like to know how did you managed to use the tool you pictured, on each of those original jackets???????

No, but as you know, or if you don't then ought to know, there are certain standard thicknesses for each grade of leather depending on what you are going to use it for. (I will not get too specific because I don't want to sound too technical).
We paid and bought and tested leathers of all thicknesses available in the range and through the process of elimination ended up in the leather we use today. All the other sample jackets we made in the wrong thickness leather didn't behave or drape in the same way like in the film so they were rejected. It was actually very easy to see that so we didn't have much trouble selecting the correct thickness. On top of that we have handled jackets from every other maker and could compare because we knew the pros and cons.

As regards the leather we used in LC, if we measure it with a measuring tape or a ruler you will see that it's the same like Stefan's photo above. Joking aside, we have also tried several leathers for the LC jacket and in the process got to know every tannery in Italy. The person who entrusted us with the info we needed to make the LC jacket got tired of waiting for us to find the right leathers and make the jacket as it took in excess of 2 years. But we would not settle for any less than perfect. We make the LC jacket with leather completely custom which is why it looks feels drapes and ages like the film used one.

Again, we would love to see some of your LC jacket has been worn.

[afalzon]

There are photos going around on Facebook.
We cannot post without consent/authority of the owners.

[CM]

“'Admitted'? - strange word to use.” What’s so strange about the word choice?

Really? There's two issues. 1) Peter originally and cheerfully stated he made the ToD jackets - until an actual jacket materialized and 2) 'admitted' means he owned up to something previously undisclosed. As you know it was the other way around.

[CM]

When I've spoken to jacket makers they generally say what leather do you like 0.70 mm or 1.00 mm. I have worked with a leather jacket maker many times over decades and interestingly, a thicker hide may be softer and more supple than a thinner hide and even look softer than a thinner hide. It's all in the properties of the leather rather than the weight.

[Trenin]

It’s possible to get a uniform thickness in hides if they are split or skived down using an industrial size machine. If the leather is full grain, there will be variations in thickness across the hide. I would not and do not use tape measurers to measure thickness. You need a depth gauge. The one I use is digital, but that’s not necessary. They aren’t too expensive if you are really into that sort of thing.

What I wonder is why any of us are paying what we are paying for absolutely bottom of the barrell materials. Before anyone gets offended, I’m not necessarily talking about the leather here. I’m talking about everything else. I don’t make leather garments, so jackets are out. I don’t have any intention at this time of making leather jackets, or vests, or skirts or anything of the sort, but I promise each and every one of you that if I ever did, I would not use the kind of materials we are getting with these jackets. Ever. Even if everyone begged for it, I’d shut down the business and do something else. I don’t care if I found the crappiest piece of polyester lining that was old stock from a 1980s sweat shop and was certified by experts that this was the THE fabric used for the film jackets. I wouldn’t use it. The snaps used on some of these jackets, if not the old stock, are terrible. The Gibson & Barnes prym are much better quality.

The quest for screen accuracy, in some instances, goes beyond vanity. It is insanity. We don’t live in a world where bullets only graze your arm, where you shoot people with impunity, where hidden treasures are perfectly booby trapped to keep out invaders thousands of years after their constructions. The only boobies here are those of us, and I’m pointing a big ole hefty fat finger right at myself in mentioning this, that are crazy enough to pay money for screen accurate trashy items that fall apart after a year of use because that’s what Harrison Ford sort of almost, kind of closely had on his back when he was lit by professional gaffers, captured by cinematic icons, shot on 34 mm, 24 fps. Visually we see things at 60 fps; what is the kelvan rating for the Sun shining on you in real life on your jacket vs that of the old bulbs used on film sets in the 80s? Screen accuracy is as much a fiction as the stakes of an action adventure serial. There must and ought to be a translation from the dream of the screen to the seam of a jacket that stands in reality. You can get this with design; construction, proportion, the asthetic properties of some of the leather. You can see this in the replacement of aluminum zippers for nickel zippers because they look the same but aren’t total @#$%. Despite the brilliant and talented vendors we currently have, and you’d be dead wrong to say they are not the best this hobby has seen, it isn’t good enough because it seeking after the prop instead of the tool. It wants the literal, subpar manifestation of a dream instead of the qualities the dream was meant to represent in our minds.

My world isn’t the Hollywood screen. When the desire for that which it represented makes its way in to the real world, let that manifestation be in the form of something that can survive in the one we actually inhabit, instead of the one we wish we did.

[Forrest For the Trees]

We need a mic drop emoji!

Seriously, different strokes for different folks... it is a shame the G&B Expedition isn’t available anymore. However, if someone wants a super accurate prop replica of a jacket, though, why not?

Tony Nowak definitely upgraded materials on his jackets and reinforced stitches where needed. His linings were indestructible and side strap hardware was functional and looked good, even though it wasn’t accurate.

[CM]

It’s possible to get a uniform thickness in hides if they are split or skived down using an industrial size machine. If the leather is full grain, there will be variations in thickness across the hide. I would not and do not use tape measurers to measure thickness. You need a depth gauge. The one I use is digital, but that’s not necessary. They aren’t too expensive if you are really into that sort of thing.

What I wonder is why any of us are paying what we are paying for absolutely bottom of the barrell materials. Before anyone gets offended, I’m not necessarily talking about the leather here. I’m talking about everything else. I don’t make leather garments, so jackets are out. I don’t have any intention at this time of making leather jackets, or vests, or skirts or anything of the sort, but I promise each and every one of you that if I ever did, I would not use the kind of materials we are getting with these jackets. Ever. Even if everyone begged for it, I’d shut down the business and do something else. I don’t care if I found the crappiest piece of polyester lining that was old stock from a 1980s sweat shop and was certified by experts that this was the THE fabric used for the film jackets. I wouldn’t use it. The snaps used on some of these jackets, if not the old stock, are terrible. The Gibson & Barnes prym are much better quality.

The quest for screen accuracy, in some instances, goes beyond vanity. It is insanity. We don’t live in a world where bullets only graze your arm, where you shoot people with impunity, where hidden treasures are perfectly booby trapped to keep out invaders thousands of years after their constructions. The only boobies here are those of us, and I’m pointing a big ole hefty fat finger right at myself in mentioning this, that are crazy enough to pay money for screen accurate trashy items that fall apart after a year of use because that’s what Harrison Ford sort of almost, kind of closely had on his back when he was lit by professional gaffers, captured by cinematic icons, shot on 34 mm, 24 fps. Visually we see things at 60 fps; what is the kelvan rating for the Sun shining on you in real life on your jacket vs that of the old bulbs used on film sets in the 80s? Screen accuracy is as much a fiction as the stakes of an action adventure serial. There must and ought to be a translation from the dream of the screen to the seam of a jacket that stands in reality. You can get this with design; construction, proportion, the asthetic properties of some of the leather. You can see this in the replacement of aluminum zippers for nickel zippers because they look the same but aren’t total @#$%. Despite the brilliant and talented vendors we currently have, and you’d be dead wrong to say they are not the best this hobby has seen, it isn’t good enough because it seeking after the prop instead of the tool. It wants the literal, subpar manifestation of a dream instead of the qualities the dream was meant to represent in our minds.

My world isn’t the Hollywood screen. When the desire for that which it represented makes its way in to the real world, let that manifestation be in the form of something that can survive in the one we actually inhabit, instead of the one we wish we did.

Yeah, I think a few people have made this point over the years, including me. The term screen accurate needs to be parsed - it can mean what the viewer sees on the screen and/or what was used that created the screen look.

I also don't want third rate hardware and paper thin linings. Watching the movie you don't know the jacket is lamb, it could be horse hide or goat. I choose goat. The lining and stuff you can't see on screen so it doesn't matter much to me.

But cosplay and reproductions are also important to people and some fetishize the exact costume details which created the magic. There's room for both.

[afalzon]

FYI our screen accurate version is not flimsy and not a costume piece to be worn once and then go to the dustbin.
We make our jackets with strong and durable materials and solid construction.
Furthermore, we can offer completely custom where the customer can select bulletproof materials.

I don't think any of the makers today offers flimsy jackets. Now if you belong to that category of guys who can destroy a perfecto jacket in 3 months of wearing then that's another story...

[Trenin]

Haha! I hear you. I don’t own a Bill Kelso, but it is on my list. I’ve heard mostly great things, but I’ve heard your linings are cheap quality as well. That doesn’t mean that is the case, I am saying that is what I have heard. I have two Steele & Jones and I love them. They fit perfectly; I got the thin horsehide leather, which I think is combination tanned but don’t quote me on that, but they are great except the lining is the most abysmal thing I’ve ever seen in my life. I can’t even use the inner pocket because it has ripped from the lining. I’m not being dragged by any trucks, it’s just incredibly poor quality. To their credit they have offered me to contact them and see about rectifying this, but I’ve already done that months ago and they know there is nothing they can do. Anything you ship to Argentina their government will confiscate. For me to have the one jacket re-lined will run me $200. You figure theirs at $450 ish, $200 to have it relined with something that won’t fall apart from the actions of a soft gust of wind or a morning after consuming a can of beans and you’re at the price of a Kelso. If you promise to not use tissue paper for lining and have a leather of remotely comparable durability, thinness, and suppleness of wherever they are sourcing their hides from and I’ll go Kelso from here on out and recommend that everyone else does as well, for what it is worth.

I just want to state for the record, I like the guys at Steele & Jones. I mostly like their products. I like their passion. I like their attention to detail. What I don’t like is already clearly stated, so please don’t take this as me knocking them; I’m not. I’ve had Westeds, US Wings, and Gibson & Barnes. Theirs are my favorite next to the Gibson and Barnes which I had to sell because the sleeves were ridiculously short, and I’m not an overly tall guy at 180 cm.

[Indiego Jones]

It’s possible to get a uniform thickness in hides if they are split or skived down using an industrial size machine. If the leather is full grain, there will be variations in thickness across the hide. I would not and do not use tape measurers to measure thickness. You need a depth gauge. The one I use is digital, but that’s not necessary. They aren’t too expensive if you are really into that sort of thing.

What I wonder is why any of us are paying what we are paying for absolutely bottom of the barrell materials. Before anyone gets offended, I’m not necessarily talking about the leather here. I’m talking about everything else. I don’t make leather garments, so jackets are out. I don’t have any intention at this time of making leather jackets, or vests, or skirts or anything of the sort, but I promise each and every one of you that if I ever did, I would not use the kind of materials we are getting with these jackets. Ever. Even if everyone begged for it, I’d shut down the business and do something else. I don’t care if I found the crappiest piece of polyester lining that was old stock from a 1980s sweat shop and was certified by experts that this was the THE fabric used for the film jackets. I wouldn’t use it. The snaps used on some of these jackets, if not the old stock, are terrible. The Gibson & Barnes prym are much better quality.

The quest for screen accuracy, in some instances, goes beyond vanity. It is insanity. We don’t live in a world where bullets only graze your arm, where you shoot people with impunity, where hidden treasures are perfectly booby trapped to keep out invaders thousands of years after their constructions. The only boobies here are those of us, and I’m pointing a big ole hefty fat finger right at myself in mentioning this, that are crazy enough to pay money for screen accurate trashy items that fall apart after a year of use because that’s what Harrison Ford sort of almost, kind of closely had on his back when he was lit by professional gaffers, captured by cinematic icons, shot on 34 mm, 24 fps. Visually we see things at 60 fps; what is the kelvan rating for the Sun shining on you in real life on your jacket vs that of the old bulbs used on film sets in the 80s? Screen accuracy is as much a fiction as the stakes of an action adventure serial. There must and ought to be a translation from the dream of the screen to the seam of a jacket that stands in reality. You can get this with design; construction, proportion, the asthetic properties of some of the leather. You can see this in the replacement of aluminum zippers for nickel zippers because they look the same but aren’t total @#$%. Despite the brilliant and talented vendors we currently have, and you’d be dead wrong to say they are not the best this hobby has seen, it isn’t good enough because it seeking after the prop instead of the tool. It wants the literal, subpar manifestation of a dream instead of the qualities the dream was meant to represent in our minds.

My world isn’t the Hollywood screen. When the desire for that which it represented makes its way in to the real world, let that manifestation be in the form of something that can survive in the one we actually inhabit, instead of the one we wish we did.

Trenin,

First, let me say, thank you so much for this text.
It's honest and clear about 2 different positions or points of view, in this hobby.

And thanks for sharing your knowledge about leather.
This sentence of your, states exactly what I've meant to say before, but got lost in translation
"It’s possible to get a uniform thickness in hides if they are split or skived down using an industrial size machine. If the leather is full grain, there will be variations in thickness across the hide."
We use only full grain skins.


I can speak about materials used on our STEELE & JONES jackets.
We don't use "bottom of the barrell materials"
In fact, 90% of the materials are normal kinds, so to speak. Not degraded or cheap.
The last 10% are custom items or vintage, in order to replicate what was used on the original jackets.

Also, costs on this products, are not result only for materials.
But, attention to many details, hand-work, artesanal job.
All this are enormous time-consuming jobs. Working time is charged too.

As for materials, for ex.:
you've said you have a ToD jacket from us, in horsehide. That horsehide (now discontinued) it's premium quality.
Soft, lightweight (like any other horsehide), full grain, and with the strenght of that particular skin.
However, the lining, it isn't. ToD original lining was cheap lightweight nylon taffeta.
And zipper was aluminium.

Of course we have other linings or materials as alternatives. And we offer when is asked.
But, almost all of the orderers who approach to us, begins the messages like this:
"I want the most accurate jacket you can make..."
Because thats what we do.
We try to replicate a garment, that someone supply to a movie production, 40/30 years ago.


Trenin,
Again, please, send us an email about the ripped lining on your jacket.
We want to help you to fix it.
Thanks.

Best regards.-

[afalzon]

Trenin wrote

Haha! I hear you. I don’t own a Bill Kelso, but it is on my list. I’ve heard mostly great things, but I’ve heard your linings are cheap quality as well. That doesn’t mean that is the case, I am saying that is what I have heard...

... If you promise to not use tissue paper for lining and have a leather of remotely comparable durability, thinness, and suppleness of wherever they are sourcing their hides from and I’ll go Kelso from here on out and recommend that everyone else does as well, for what it is worth.

Our linings are not cheap quality.
For the Raiders (Relic Hunter) we use cotton silesia, which is standard quality 100% cotton and we can give the specs to anyone interested.
For the Temple of Doom (Fortune & Glory) jacket we use standard polyester lining of the kind you find on most men's jackets.
For the Last Crusade (Holy Grail) jacket we use one of the best quality linings available which we buy at GBP 15.5 per square meter (or maybe more, I got to check).

We also have mil-spec linings that can be had if customer wants.
Plus we have a ton of lining options here:

https://billkelsomfg.com/shop/linings/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[The Character]

Theres a lot of harsh words on here ...

Its gone way off topic AND its becoming offensive IMO.

Its fine to be black and white about issues on your personal jackets and experiences but trashing vendors is not what its about. I've had jackets from wested and Steele & Jones and i cant speak for Kelso but ive heard nothing but good about them as well and they look superb. These garments are hand made by humans. they are not mass produced and on any given day with all the variables of leather, linings, sticking and threads you might end up with a problem yes .. many of mine have had small issues and some have needed repairs etc along the way and replacement parts .. its not unusual with a garment made by hand and worn a lot. Also not sure either where 200 bucks to reline a jacket came from? .. wested do it for 20 quid ... so thats about 25 bucks currently .. most repair shops possibly less.

I feel there is a distinct difference between feedback good or bad and just gunning vendors with a broadside based on your personal experiences (and here say) 'but I've heard' which other customers may or may not have shared.

[Trenin]

With respect, I stand by every word I said. If it’s offensive enough, the moderators are free to remove my comments; I’m fine with that. Where there was hearsay, I stipulated that it was such. I also specifically state that I was not knocking/trashing any vendor. You hearing “good” about Kelso is also hearsay, it’s just the kind of “say” you like to hear, so it’s fine.

I see you also notice the issues. Handmade garments are generally of a higher quality than those which are mass produced so you would be less inclined to find such an issue on a handmade product. $200 is what Arrow Care Leather stateside quoted me to have it relined after shipping it to them. If Wested is willing to reline another company’s jacket for cheaper shipping it across the Atlantic, I’m happy to use them. My personal experiences are as valid as anyone else’s; if you don’t like it you are as free to express your opinion as I ought to be to express mine, or you can complain to the moderators that you’ve found some kind of violation and have it removed.

As a side note, S&J have contacted me again and promised to rectify the issue; so that is a testament to their caring, is it not?

[The Character]

fine but its not what you say its how its said and there a lot of passive aggressiveness in your 'i dont want to offend' and 'i say it like its is' stuff.. id say comment on your own experiences and what you know and keep what you've heard out of it. Thats not feedback its heresay stated as such or not and A irrelevant and B unsubstantiated.
its a bit like your experience with the relining issue ... you're using that as a tool to make a broad sweeping statement .. !'ve countered the statement by saying other vendors do it more cheaply so have you bothered shopping around or are you just gonna keep throwing the 'Its 200 bucks to repair this!!' statement around?

When vendors are asking for feedback 9 times out of 10 they're not asking for someone to say' i hear your linings a @#$%' (even though i have no experience of it) so you need to fix that!' and on a public forum ... if you have an issue on your jacket(s) fine then for sure state it/them but don't stir the pot with your oblique comments.

[afalzon]

No offense taken here. Please express yourselves freely.

We want to hear people's doubts so that we can give them the right answers and reassure them.
Others watching and reading also learning without going into the trouble of asking themselves.
So it's a good thing.

Regarding reasonable re-lining in USA you can try this company

https://www.greatleather.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can provide some others as well.

[xmasters]

Well I only have one Bill Kelso jacket and I was blown away by the quality. That's a first hand opinion, not hearsay.

[Forrest For the Trees]

Well I only have one Bill Kelso jacket and I was blown away by the quality. That's a first hand opinion, not hearsay.

Same here! The only thing that bugged me was the side strap hardware, which is now easily fixed. Otherwise it is hands down the best Indy jacket, best quality of construction, best leather, etc. that I have ever had. With the Truck jacket now revealed, there are tiny details that might be different, but I could care less about that, personally.

I think there is room in the hobby for both Steele and Jones and Bill Kelso Mfg. Each offers a slightly different product depending on what you are going for.

[Trenin]

Thank you for the heads up on a place to get the jacket relined; I checked it out and they want over $200, but S&J got back to me with a place that will do it for $140, so I’m just waiting to hear back from them. I’d reline the thing myself, but I don’t have experience in jacket construction. I’m considering making an attempt to add underarm gussets to a leather coat I have because the range of motion is restricted. We’ll see!

I certainly hope there is always room for Kelso and Steele & Jones. There aren’t enough providers at their level, overall.

[afalzon]

Some more here:

https://www.flightjacket.com/repair.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is also a well qualified and skilled guy from the forums able to fix it and I am sure if he does the job it will cost you much less.

His name is Dave Sheeley and lives in Virginia Beach.
You can contact him here: David Sheeley <davidsheeley@cox.net>