Floppy vs. Stiff Redux

[rick5150]

I want to apologize in advance for any types or odd grammar. I was looking at some interesting posts from a while back, and I came across the Floppy vs. Stiff post.

It seems like the majority of the people feel that the answer is floppy is better. I agree with that entirely and thought I would as some comments. I came across some issues in life about 19 months ago, and I needed something to occupy my time. I decided to make some inexpensive hats, hoping that one or two will come up good enough to be used as a backup hat if I needed one.

What I started doing was going on eBay to get some inexpensive hats that met the sizing requirements, and worked them into Raiders hats. I had made my own block a long time ago trying to fix my ###### hat, which had shrink a bit. Anyways, I learned that the type of felt actually influences the way the hat looks (I'll explain that more in a moment) and softness not mean much unless the felt is dense enough to hold its shape. (I will explain that more too!)

My first point is that using different hats from eBay, usually means different quality felt. That sounds logical, but even using the exact same size hats when put on the same exact block, with cause different results. The heavier feeling hats used in cowboy hats usually does not give good results. If you wash the shellac/stiffener out the the hat, the hats usually do not hold their shape.

My second point is that the cowboy hat felt is usually thick - but not particularly heavy. I refer to it as density because I was a papermaker for 27 years and a lot of the properties of paper seem to apply to felt. Think of density like a slice of bread. You can weigh it and some up with a number. Then if you put a book on top of that slice of bread and apply pressure and weigh it, the weight changes, but the thickness is much less. That is how I look at a good dress fur felt.

I would love to hear some of the hat makers thoughts on this.

But anyways, those thinner hats that are sanded smooth tend to have more elasticity and memory in the hats. The cowboy hats that have the stiffener washed out of them do not really hold up, unless you reshape the hat and apply thickener or hairspray. But a good old-fashioned dress felt can be washed and cleaned, but the hat never needs stiffener because of the nature of the felt process.

With that said, a nicely made "floppy" dress hat will usually be way better for everyday use than a cowboy hat I would think. I have tried both in many occasions and I have found the stiff hats take off like an empty pizza box in a sustained wind, where the softer hats have fared well for my needs. I hike a lot above the treeline in the White Mountains are notorious for their unstable weather. A sunny forecast means nothing to the actual weather. I tried a few stiffer felts and spend more time chasing my hat and finally jamming it in the backpack. Until the Steve's Adventurebilt hats.

I would love to know the merits of the stiffer felts so I can understand them better, but for me, a floppy hat is best!

Somewhere in my computer I have a great example of the felt in the wind. I will dig it up as a picture is worth a thousand words.

EDIT: I actually wrote this yesterday and posted it today. In the meantime, I found the image, but even better, I found a video!

[Dalexs]

Hey, I know that trail!

Nice video... at first I was thinking "How the heck is that hat staying on his head in that wind??
But now, I see what you mean about the floppiness being a factor in a case like that.

The hats I've made have been mostly been standard winchester felt, so the brims have been fairly still out of the box.
The tonak felts I used ot get from BCF were always floppy as $%^&, so they would have been a better example to test that theory with.

BTW Nice to see you back. I forgot how close you are.
At some point, one of us has to cross that border and grab a drink.

Dalexs

[rick5150]

Hahaha! I forgot we spoke about hiking in the past!

I love the White Mountains! I have done the 48 four-thousand-footers most more than once. It is getting more difficult now, but my younger son hikes with me now as well. Not sure if he really wants to or he is doing it for my sake, but I cannot tell you how much I enjoy that.

For that hike, I was alone and when I got to Zealand (wooded summit) I went beyond to Guyot to get out of the treeline and get a view. I am really glad it did.

Later, when I went to Bond and West Bond, I used that same trail to avoid the ridiculous walk through Lincoln Woods/Wilderness Trail. I have done that 3 times for varies hikes and that is enough. The last time was the 18.4 mile hike to Owl's Head.

I forget where you are on MA. I am only in Londonderry, so that sounds like a plan.

[davidd]

Last year I wore my fairly stiff Akubra Fed IV while traveling, and it soon reached the point where I did not want to wear it because of its propensity to go sailing off in the wind.

On a similar trip this past month, I wore a much softer Akubra Pastoralist (with a Indy-ish bash), and while the weather was even windier, I had no problems with the softer hat, both because of the floppier brim, and because I could simply jam it down further on my head when necessary.

I found it amusing that on my trip last year, while wearing the "Indy style" Fed IV, I received no comments about the hat, but this year, while wearing the Pastoralist, somebody actually commented that I reminded them of Indiana Jones.

[Michaelson]

I regularly wear the 78gr Portuguese beaver felt AB/Garrison that Steve tried and tossed aside, saying in his opinion it was TOO floppy, but made me a 'yard hat' as he didn't want to throw it away.

That soft felt has completely floored me at its memory and ease of wear, not to mention it will stay on my head regardless of how windy it is.

It's been cleaned and blocked multiple times since 2006, and just keeps on keeping on. It's due a cleaning now!

I also have a 1940's Borsalino beaver that I occasionally wear, but with the wider brim, it quite literally tries to beat me to death when worn in windy conditions.

All that said, I have several Winchester felt AB's and the like in my closet, and only pull them out in really cold weather anymore.

That's almost blasphemy, as the Winchester Hat Co. is located in my county seat of Franklin County, Tennessee/ Winchester, Tennessee.

Regards! Michaelson

[rick5150]

Hey Michaelson, wonder if it was from the same batch Steve sent me? The one he sent me says "Stunt Double Indy IV" and some more writing that was scribbled over it with marker, under the sweatband. Before he sent it to me, he put my initials in it. For year it just sat on a shelf, then I tried using it. Its a bit taller than I like, but it is very cool. As per my usual butchery of a hat, I pulled the liner out and pulled it back. That is when I say the writing.

The felt is really soft and impossible and the brim is impossible to shape without stiffener. Or so I thought. Once you wear it, it takes shape like magic! It is actually wearing it, that gives it it's shape. It is unique to my collection, that is for sure. It would work great in the wind, but I double it would do well when it gets rained on.

[Michaelson]

No, I believe that was from the infamous 'Ford Felt' fiasco of that time period.

I have one too.

It's beaver, and it does WONDERFUL in rain!

I've worn mine to Disney World and Universal Studios parks in the past, got caught in frog drowning rains, and it held up perfectly. It, too, has been blocked and cleaned several times, and looks as good as it did when I got it back in 2006.....same time period as the 78gr beaver. He was doing a LOT of experimentation at that time.

The one you're talking about was Winchester felt special run, but more of a 'dress' weight that he never continued with.

The one I have and am talking about was a one-off cone he obtained from a Portuguese felter to try a dress weight, but he was so used to the heavier Winchester felts, he tossed it aside.

Time has proven, though, it WOULD have been a route to go. This old thing just keeps on going and coming back for more!

Regards! M

[rick5150]

Last year I wore my fairly stiff Akubra Fed IV while traveling, and it soon reached the point where I did not want to wear it because of its propensity to go sailing off in the wind.

On a similar trip this past month, I wore a much softer Akubra Pastoralist (with a Indy-ish bash), and while the weather was even windier, I had no problems with the softer hat, both because of the floppier brim, and because I could simply jam it down further on my head when necessary.

I found it amusing that on my trip last year, while wearing the "Indy style" Fed IV, I received no comments about the hat, but this year, while wearing the Pastoralist, somebody actually commented that I reminded them of Indiana Jones.

Akubra makes a fine hat, but I do not like them for Indy hats. I had a federation and it was okay. It was my first "real" hat. Later I got a boatload of different ones, and I settled on Down Under. That was fun because I made a alligator Dundee hat as they were not sending Crocodile parts to the US. There are a bit stiffer than I like, but it is a cool hat. I never had a Pastoralist hat. Do you have images?

[Michaelson]

The Fed Deluxe is better than the standard Fed, in my opinion.

Denser felt, smoother finish, and softens up quite nicely after a few wearings and rain.

Regards! Michaelson

[rick5150]

Time has proven, though, it WOULD have been a route to go. This old thing just keeps on going and coming back for more!

Exactly what we want in a hat. Like the old Timex ads - It takes a licking and keeps on ticking

[Michaelson]

Yep, had more compliments on that silly hat that was headed to the trash had Steve not asked me in passing if I wanted it as a yard hat.

Quick 'funny' story to tell regarding that hat.....I've been wearing a Tilley Endurable on occasion when it rains.

Wore it to WDW last year, and liked it. My wife hasn't said a whole lot about it.

I mentioned I was thinking about wearing it this year.

She said, 'it's a nice hat for fishing and yard work.....' then silence.

I said 'You don't like that hat, do you?'

She said,' we're used to you wearing your fedora....'

I said, 'reminds you of what an old man wears?'

She said, 'yep, and you told me when we were younger to shoot you if you ever started wearing those when we got older. This is your warning shot....'

SOOOOo, the Tilley is going to be on the hall tree this year, and the old road fedora will be on my head again this year.....

Regard! N

Regards! M

[rick5150]

She said, 'it's a nice hat for fishing and yard work.....' then silence.

Hahaha, that says everything : )

[Michaelson]

Actually it was the ‘warning shot’ comment the got my attention......


Regards! M

[Charybdis]

Discretion is the better part of valor! Keep the wife happy!

Reminds me when I wear my cardigan sweater, my wife thinks I look ancient!

[jlee562]

Yes! Density is important! Old western hats are not nearly as thick as their modern counterparts but were felted much more densely. I often point to the final scene of The Searchers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KvfIsbhIQLA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No modern western will flop like that and drop right back into place. Here's a comparison pic of my ca. 1910's Boss Raw Edge and the modern Matt Deckard version:

Here it is next to my modern Stetson Fortune and Glory, as you can see, the old western weight is much closer to today's dress weight felt.


As hat companies spent less and less time on felting, it seems as if they compensated with more shellac. I believe the lack of density is one of the key reasons why modern felts are so different than pre-war vintage.

[davidd]

I said, 'reminds you of what an old man wears?'

She said, 'yep, and you told me when we were younger to shoot you if you ever started wearing those when we got older. This is your warning shot....'

Convey my regards and appreciation to your wife. Would Indy have worn a Tilley? No!

I will admit to stopping to look at them nearly every time I see a display, but I end up thinking, "retired guy on the golf course hat, not adventure hat," and moving along.

Live the adventure... at least until you retire to a house near the golf course.

[Michaelson]

Will do. Thing is we have several working field archaeologists here, as well as many many more who live in Tilley’s on a daily basis in the field. I’ve always looked at it as a nod in their direction.....but outside that group, I also see and recognize the ‘old man on golf course’ comparison.

Do I think Indy would have worn one? If born later and working in this time period, yes, I do think he’d consider a Tilley for field use.....but that’s another topic and debate for another thread.

Regards! Michaelson

[Nosirrah]

Will do. Thing is we have several working field archaeologists here, as well as many many more who live in Tilley’s on a daily basis in the field. I’ve always looked at it as a nod in their direction.....but outside that group, I also see and recognize the ‘old man on golf course’ comparison.

Do I think Indy would have worn one? If born later and working in this time period, yes, I do think he’d consider a Tilley for field use.....but that’s another topic and debate for another thread.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, this thread is succumbing to mission creep, but hey. As I may have said elsewhere, a panama is my choice for dry-land work, but on the boat, I do wear a Tilley-style bucket hat: a gift from a nephew who's a fan of my alma mater (big maize-and-blue "M"...). It's featherweight nylon, dries in a flash, and has a chinstrap. Would not be caught dead wearing it anywhere else. The point in both cases- on land or on water, you want something that keeps the sun off your neck when you're in the business of looking downward all day. That would include a floppy fedora, so there.