Raider’s screen jacket side strap buckle & lining confirmed

Stefan Hills · Post by **Stefan Hills** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:05 am

Greetings Gentle Folks of IndyGear!

After watching this interview with Deborah Nadoolman Landis, the costume designer for Raiders of the Lost Ark, sparked a nagging question in my mind.

https://youtu.be/zta6rggdNQs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And that was, is it possible that Deborah may have mixed up her recollections about the fact that the Raider’s jackets had D rings, (D for Deborah) as she stated in the interview when there is a clear image of screen jackets having a rectangular buckle?

The idea that the Raider’s jackets have a rectangular buckle is not news. But what was interesting is the fact that she was very specific about the type of buckle used in the other movies in the franchise as having “two teeth.” Having personally seeing the Noel Howard jacket when I visited London, made me wonder if the Raider’s jacket might have used this same style of buckle?

Over the last few years I have been cultivating a relationship with the curators of the National Museum of American History in the to hope that together we might solve some of the remaining riddles of the Indiana Jones jacket from Raiders of the Lost Ark. With the help of a very like minded curator, contact was made with the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art. He was able to follow up with two questions I had regarding the type of buckle used on the side strap as well as the type of lining used on the original jackets from Raiders.

Here is a comparison image of the buckle from a screen used Raider’s jacket

when compared to the D rings of a screen used Last Crusade Jacket.

We now have further proof positive (which has been mentioned by folks like Brandon Alinger from the Prop Store) that jackets from Raiders of the Lost Ark do in fact have rectangular buckles. Also,it is important to note is that the lining on all four Indy jackets and especially the the Raiders jacket used a poly-blend of fabric for the inner lining and not cotton as previously stated by Peter and theorized by some as such.
Deborah’s fabric sample book which she donated to the Smithsonian even has a lining sample and it’s not cotton.

Though, Peter never took credit for making the jackets for Temple of Doom, the jackets from Temple of Doom used the same materials of the Raider’s jacket in terms of lining and side strap buckle. The notion of that these jackets were made by a French company which has been floated around is because the buckle used had a French country of manufacture stamp.
These rectangular buckles are generic men’s trouser waist tab adjusters and the same style of buckle was made in France, Germany, and Britain.

My father while cleaning out some of my grandfather’s belongs came across his sewing kit and it had a collection of these buckles which both my father and I recall him wearing since all my grandfather’s clothes were tailored for him. The buckle on the Raider’s jacket has a British country of origin stamped on it incidentally.
In conclusion, this style of buckle is not exclusive to the jackets from Temple of Doom but seem to be a design element that was carried over from the Raider’s of the Lost Ark. The notion is that the lining is cotton is wrong too. When you consider that Temple is set before Raider’s it nice to see this carry over.
Getting an answer to what seemed like a simple question took me down a very long and twisted rabbit hole, and I am just glad I was able to reach the end of the tunnel and hope you enjoyed the journey.

Best wishes,
Stefan

indymassilia · Post by **indymassilia** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:52 am

Incredible work Stephan,Congratulations !

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:56 am

Really interesting. Do you think you could briefly state exactly what your conclusions are? I'm afraid you lost me part of the way through. If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that the Raiders jacket had a poly blend lining and similar "toothed" buckles to those of the ToD jacket?

The only question in my mind is why Nadoolman would have gotten Raiders switched with the other movies. Raiders was the only film in the series she worked on, iirc.

Stefan Hills · Post by **Stefan Hills** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:38 am

"Mulceber"]Really interesting. Do you think you could briefly state exactly what your conclusions are? I'm afraid you lost me part of the way through. If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that the Raiders jacket had a poly blend lining and similar "toothed" buckles to those of the ToD jacket?

Correct!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:42 am

There are a LOT of things DN 'mis-remembers', but we won't go into that.

As to the rectangular buckles and the lining, pick up any G&B (Flightsuits) Expedition and examine it. They were based on a screen used stunt Raiders jacket, and have the poly-blend lining (which everyone said was 'wrong' at the time, including Peter. Now you know WHY it was used), and the two prong buckles weren't available in the U. S. to Flightsuits at the time, so the rectangular buckles you see on the Expedition were substituted after much discussion and debate.

You'll also find this on the main Indygear write up:

Modifications performed by the wardrobe staff on all jackets were as follows:

Zips were painted with brass paint. In certain lighting, the aluminum zips were too shiny especially once they received some wear.

D-rings were replaced with metal rectangular slides painted black (the d-rings would not hold the thinner lambskin side straps sufficiently, especially once aged, and some straps were actually sewn in place).

Thanks for confirming things that were submitted by a now banned member for use in the creation of the Expedition, and dismissed by many members over 20 years ago when the Expedition was created.

GREAT work as usual, Stefan

Regard! Michaelson

Post by **Mike** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:22 am

You sleuthing skills have come through once again. I'm glad that they can confirm as Michaelson said.

Thanks Stefan!!

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:16 am

Michaelson wrote:There are a LOT of things DN 'mis-remembers', but we won't go into that. Regard! Michaelson

Agreed, but I can't help but recall the look on Adam Savages face when she said "D for Deborah" and the restraint he had when we knows he knows better.

Also agreed, excellent work Stefan. It's always great to get access to the original pieces and see things first hand.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Hunter Jones · Post by **Hunter Jones** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:25 am

That is an amazing bit of detective work, Stefan. You have my congratulations and admiration.

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:47 am

First, thank you so much for sharing, dear friend.

This are amazing news.

Cheers.-

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:00 pm

That's amazing work, Stefan!!! Though I'd hate to have a buckle that cuts into my jacket straps like that. Is that just me?

Post by **Mike** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:25 pm

backstagejack wrote:That's amazing work, Stefan!!! Though I'd hate to have a buckle that cuts into my jacket straps like that. Is that just me?

Nope. not just you.

Post by **Cajunkraut** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:27 pm

Great stuff, Stefan. The site and its members continue to deliver.

Soooooo...the Smithsonian has a Raiders jacket too?

IndianaJustin · Post by **IndianaJustin** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:35 pm

Cajunkraut wrote:Great stuff, Stefan. The site and its members continue to deliver.

Soooooo...the Smithsonian has a Raiders jacket too?

That’s what I was wondering.

Thanks again for your work!

Dangerfreak · Post by **Dangerfreak** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:52 pm

First class job! I've not seen such clear and definitive close-ups of the buckles. The comparisons with other providers and versions available is also excellent.

Sent from my XT1700 using Tapatalk

captblitzdawg · Post by **captblitzdawg** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:09 pm

Great to find out! It certainly helps me identify my gear more accurately! Thanks!

Stefan Hills · Post by **Stefan Hills** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:43 pm

Many thanks gents, we are all here in this hobby for the same thing, it’s no fun if one does not share the information that is gathered.

The Smithsonian does not have a Raiders jacket in their collection. The jacket you see with the pronged buckle in the comparison photo is from the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art. This is where all remaining jackets from the franchise have been transferred to. There is three jackets that don’t have labels which have pronged buckles which either could be from the Temple of Doom or Raiders and it is my hope that the Lucas Museum of Narrative will allow the Smithsonian to help identify these three jackets. Shall keep you all posted if and when that ever happens.

Best wishes,
Stefan

CM · Post by CM » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:16 am

Is the jacket in the Adam Savage clip really a Raiders jacket - maybe it's the lighting and the dummy but it looks like a different cut and leather.

Interesting increment of information Stefan.

Stefan Hills · Post by **Stefan Hills** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:05 am

The jacket is not from Raiders, it's from Last Crusade.The whole costume is a mash up of all the films in the franchise. Notice the shirt has lighter colored buttons, the bag strap buckle looks like Raiders, the shoes incorrectly labeled as Redwings is actually Aldens and look like the ones from Crystal Skull, Raiders hat felt was not beaver, its rabbit, the web belt looks like Cystal Skull or Last Crusade. The list goes on and on how inaccurate all the descriptions are.

Stefan Hills · Post by **Stefan Hills** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:17 am

Stefan Hills wrote:The jacket is not from Raiders, it's from Last Crusade.The whole costume is a mash up of all the films in the franchise. Notice the shirt has lighter colored buttons, the bag strap buckle looks like Raiders, the shoes incorrectly labeled as Redwings is actually Aldens and look like the ones from Crystal Skull, Raiders hat felt was not beaver, its rabbit, the web belt looks like Cystal Skull or Last Crusade. The list goes on and on how inaccurate all the descriptions are.

Fun fact the jacket used the exhibition is actually on loan from the Smithsonian and not from ILM as Deborah incorrectly claims. Lighting does drastically change the appearance.

Canyon · Post by **Canyon** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:56 am

This is an awesome find!

Just something I was thinking about. The picture you posted is from a cut scene from the Blu ray Raiders documentary and I noticed that in that cut scene the jacket seems to look a lot shinier that it does in the movie. My thought is that Harrison was wearing a different jacket in that scene and therefore could it mean that both styles of buckles were used?

BushManJones · Post by **BushManJones** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:08 pm

This is so great, excellent detective work!!

I just realised that I have a bunch of those buckles (Stamped BRITISH) from when I got a load for m ToD jackets. I just need to paint them black get them swapped out on my Raiders jackets now

)

Forrest For the Trees · Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:19 pm

Nice. All of this sounds right, and matches with what appears on screen. Those buckles always bugged me. Now where in the world can we find a stash of those old "British" stamped buckles?

CM · Post by CM » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:01 am

Re the wrong jacket - I thought this was the case Stefan, When I first saw this I remember thinking that DM was ether making it up or remembering things wrongly. She's so sure about the details and the whole story attached. Goes to show that you can't always trust information provided by people who were actually there. And sometimes a nerd with a computer knows more than the filmmakers.

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:18 pm

Great work Stefan! Outstanding photos and research. I look forward to more.
best
Canada

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:28 am

Nice research Stefan.

FYI at least one Raiders jacket (private collection) has the "Solide" buckles rather than the "British" buckles. There is also variation in the zippers - at least two different brands.

The Lucas Museum collection has 2x Raiders jackets and 2x TOD jackets. The photo above of the "British" buckle I believe is the Hawaii jacket. The jacket looks to me like it was wet. The other Raiders jacket they have is the Terry Leonard jacket - small front pockets, heavy wear on the back, cut in the sleeve to simulate the bullet hit.

One of the two Lucas Museum TOD jackets is the other primary jacket seen in the film (the "Noel Howard" jacket being the other.) The second one is a heavily-weathered one that looks strange - I think someone shared a photo of a stuntman wearing it on TOD.

Actually there is a third TOD jacket that is completely clean, not weathered at all, unused.

And then I think they have 2-3 LC jackets, with the D-rings.

Best
Brandon

azuma · Post by **azuma** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:55 pm

Awesome found! Great information for all Indy fans~
Thank you Stefan!!!

Best regards,
Azuma

Wotalark · Post by **Wotalark** » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:45 pm

Great research and interesting thread. Thanks Stefan!

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:29 pm

Great info! Thanks Stefan!

Technonut · Post by **Technonut** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:34 am

It's always interesting to log-in every blue moon or so... Never know what treasures of info have become unearthed!

Thanks Stefan!

I found some 'close-enough' buckles here that may do the trick if anyone's looking:

http://buttonbaron.3dcartstores.com/Buc ... t_c_9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indy_Dave · Post by **Indy_Dave** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:55 pm

Terrific work. I'm always fascinated by historical details about the jackets.

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:50 pm

This was an interesting read.
So what I'm taking away from this is that the ROTLA jacket strap/buckle had prongs.
When I bought my ToD from Steele & Jones, the option of buckles with prongs was one.
I opted for the non-prong due to the car seat friendly comment.
Are the prongs really that damaging?

Croft

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:29 pm

Technonut wrote:I found some 'close-enough' buckles here that may do the trick if anyone's looking: http://buttonbaron.3dcartstores.com/Buc ... t_c_9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks! I installed the antique brass buckles on my Raiders jacket and they look great! Much appreciated!

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:31 am

Really nice thread and thanks for the research. I wanted to comment long ago but now that one of the original Raiders jackets surfaced can't postpone it any more.

While the film used Raiders jacket may or may not have SOLIDE/BRITISH style buckles, I can tell you with 99.99% certainty that the picture shown here:

is not from a Raiders jacket but from a TOD jacket.

Mark Raats · Post by **Mark Raats** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:23 pm

afalzon wrote:I can tell you with 99.99% certainty that the picture shown here:

is not from a Raiders jacket but from a TOD jacket.

Agreed, from memory, the Raiders jackets have the SOLIDE buckles.

MARK

Stefan Hills · Post by **Stefan Hills** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:12 pm

Here we go again...So then what type of buckle is used then?

The director of the cultural division of the National Museum of American History as a favor for a curator who is a friend of mine, reached out to the archivists of the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art and confirmed my theory on the buckles and lining on the Indiana Jones jackets currently housed in their collection. There examples and even prototypes of all 4 types of jackets in the collection.

The curator that personally manages this collection now was asked to look at jackets that had these buckles and only found them in jackets without labels and those that had labels. Two examples of each jacket buckle were photographed and sent.

So regardless of what you want to believe, the fact of the matter is all the Indy jackets in the collection only have two types of buckles, the vintage two prong trouser waist tab adjusters or D rings. There is no other type used. This is a fact, not a theory.

So if this buckle type is not used on both screen used Raider’s and Temple jackets, then the question still stands what type of buckle was used?

SOLIDE, BRITISH, GERMANY have been stamped on the same type of buckle. A TOD jacket had SOLIDE buckles on them so it does not matter the country of manufacture stamp on them. The point of this post is to highlight two simple facts, Raiders and Temple jackets have this vintage two prong buckle and the jackets all have a blended fabric lining. The research I conducted indicates that Raider’s jackets did not have a simple tri-glide buckle with cotton lining as what is being used in current Raider’s jackets that claim to be screen accurate.

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:20 pm

I've seen Raiders jackets with both BRITISH and SOLIDE buckles. That photo with the purple-gloved hand, and the "Scratches" visible on the leather of the jacket, is definitely a Raiders jacket and not TOD.

I've seen a TOD jacket with SOLIDE buckles. Maybe there are TOD jackets with other buckles too - I didn't note all the brands when I looked at them. Agreed they are all two-prong though.

Best
Brandon

Mark Raats · Post by **Mark Raats** » Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:06 am

There is no question that Brandon is best placed to answer the question with any authority.

Stefan, one of the Raiders jackets in the archives was missing both buckles and one of the straps when I last saw them - not sure if it has been repaired since.

MARK

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:10 pm

Stefan Hills wrote: Here is a comparison image of the buckle from a screen used Raider’s jacket

Stefan

Most probably, the jacket we are looking here is the "JOCK PLANE jacket". That's just how we call it.
In the movie, on Harrison Ford's back on location in Hawaii, in the jump into the river take.

Pockets: Raiders sized pockets. Approximately 20 cm height x 16.5 cm wide. (due to the condition of the jacket, is very difficult to measure exactly)
Yoke: Small Raiders yoke. About 4.75".
Pleats: Full action pleats, at bottom are open up to strap level.
Zipper: YKK silver zipper, n°5 size.
Buckles: black rectangular 2-prongs buckles. BRITISH inscription.
Lining: 100% brown polyester
Condition: very distorted, completely deformed throughout its whole structure. Shrunken effect on leather by water saturation also increased the grain making it more prominent. Jacket is lighter in color (discolored), with stains all over the surface.
No label

Your can see a complete summary about our research on this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=923643#p923643" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers.-

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:49 am

Here we go again...So then what type of buckle is used then?

The director of the cultural division of the National Museum of American History as a favor for a curator who is a friend of mine, reached out to the archivists of the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art and confirmed my theory on the buckles and lining on the Indiana Jones jackets currently housed in their collection. There examples and even prototypes of all 4 types of jackets in the collection....

Fine, but you haven't heard my reasoning yet.
Presently collecting some info and will let you know.

Stefan Hills · Post by **Stefan Hills** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:14 pm

To say that buckle in the image is not from a Raider’s jacket is to say that both the archivist of the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art and Brandon Alinger (who have intimate knowledge with the collection) are both wrong.
Whether you want to believe or not what has been verified by very credible sources is up to you. These people have handled these jackets and who have decided to share this information with this community.
I know the image of the buckle is from a Raider’s jacket.The possible scene and location was also disclosed to me and that’s good enough for me.
There is still a few more details about these jackets we can still learn after nearly 30 years since the movies came out but what’s the point of verified information when it is treated with unvalidated skepticism?

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:37 am

To say that buckle in the image is not from a Raider’s jacket is to say that both the archivist of the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art and Brandon Alinger (who have intimate knowledge with the collection) are both wrong.
Whether you want to believe or not what has been verified by very credible sources is up to you. These people have handled these jackets and who have decided to share this information with this community.
I know the image of the buckle is from a Raider’s jacket.The possible scene and location was also disclosed to me and that’s good enough for me.
There is still a few more details about these jackets we can still learn after nearly 30 years since the movies came out but what’s the point of verified information when it is treated with unvalidated skepticism?

Dear Stefan,

I based my opinion that the photo does not show a Raiders jacket on the fact that the construction details shown are not a match with a Raiders jacket but rather a TOD jacket. I will elaborate later and will show also photos for everyone to see and consider.

Unless if, the jacket shown is the Bantu Wind/Prototype jacket which shares some construction details with the TOD jackets.
Yet, on another thread Indiego Jones who gets his info from you and the other gentlemen said that the Bantu Wind jacket does not have buckles, and I quote:

1) BANTU WIND jacket
Many similarities with ToD patterns. Same construction details.
Pockets: Smaller dimensions for the front pockets. (we didn't got the exact measurements)
Yoke: Larger yoke. About 7".
Pleats: Action pleats closed at bottom, with small opening.
Zipper: YKK silver zipper (size not confirmed)
Buckles: no buckles
Lining: 100% brown polyester
Condition: heavily distressed on back and front. Also important distress present on sleeves. Hole (ripped) on upper left sleeve.
No label

So it's a mystery and now we wonder whether ther was another jacket not shown in the film and used in the promo shots or not at all. Actually there is a promo shot with HF holding the idol and wearing a jacket that has not yet been identified. The shot is taken from an angle looking up. Anyone who knows the photo I am talking about please post it.

Then there is also this:

Also,it is important to note is that the lining on all four Indy jackets and especially the the Raiders jacket used a poly-blend of fabric for the inner lining and not cotton as previously stated by Peter and theorized by some as such.
Deborah’s fabric sample book which she donated to the Smithsonian even has a lining sample and it’s not cotton.

No matter how hard I tried, it's not possible to get the shirt fabric to look anything like what is shown in the film or what we have from MBA/NH shirts.

So if the shirt fabric in her sample book is not correct to the actual shirt why would the jacket lining be correct?

Furthermore, you said its a poly-blend (and I would go with that based on the photos) but Indiego Jones and his sources say

Lining: 100% brown polyester

So which is it?
Was there a tag in the lining that read 100% polyester and gave the washing instructions?
Are the archivist of the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art and Brandon Alinger fabric experts and can identify what is the lining made of by the look and feel of it? Or otherwise what method was used to identify it?

As you may know there several different materials that can be used for lining, for instance rayon, viscose, acetate, bemberg, poly/cotton blend, acetate/viscose blend, TriAcetate/Polyamide, Viscose Ermazine Taffeta and others. There is also polyester that looks so close to viscose that you wouldn't believe it. Do you think that Mr archivist and Mr Brandon Alinger are able to identify these fabrics?

So please excuse me but at least on the lining cannot go for what the credible sources say especially now that the sources contradict themselves, i.e. poly blend vs 100% polyester.

My theory is that Peter used cotton on the Bantu Wind/Prototype jacket (that's where his memory is from) and then used a different kind of lining on the jackets supplied later probably because he used what was available at the time.

That would make sense to justify Peter's memory, yet we hear from Indiego Jones that all surviving jackets (one of which identified as the BW) have the same lining.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:02 am

The buckle and lining are interesting questions, but from a customer point of view, maybe less so. I’ve always been a bit nervous of the buckles with the prongs as I don’t like sharp stuff that can weaken the straps or damage a car seat, etc. As for lining, the most comfortable wins -likely a silky smooth cotton for me. But I get where a purist wants to know.

While I love Brendan’s jacket in the other thread, the one illustrating the straps above bothers me with all the scratchy distressing.

One of the things fans of the TOD Jacket like is the snug, wrinkly arms and worn collar. The arms I think are obvious -a product of the jacket getting wet and Harrison getting a lot bigger for the shirtless scenes. The collar also had that wetted -dried-untreated look. I like the notion that the Bantu Wind jacket was used in TOD.

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:16 am

This is fun - it reminds me of the old days when people got really into minute jacket issues, like medieval theologians arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Peter's memory of Raiders patterns and leathers had many curious variations to the screen jacket over the years, so it would be totally unsurprising if he remembered the lining material wrong too. He also made an A2 for Harrison a few years earlier. Perhaps that one had cotton, just like a real A2. Anything is possible in speculation land.

I think it might have been more accurate to describe the lining as of 'polyester appearance'. I would be satisfied that the experience of those looking at the jacket could identify polyester to be most likely, but of course it wouldn't be 100% certain. Sending the material to forensics for identification may not be all that practical and it is easy to tell if the jacket is not cotton or silk.

I'd be interested to hear why the jacket in the strap photo as a ToD. That's interesting.

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:24 am

Tibor wrote: One of the things fans of the TOD Jacket like is the snug, wrinkly arms and worn collar. The arms I think are obvious -a product of the jacket getting wet and Harrison getting a lot bigger for the shirtless scenes. The collar also had that wetted -dried-untreated look. I like the notion that the Bantu Wind jacket was used in TOD.

The ToD jacket was cut differently and I think there is a tight version and a loose version. One that is overly distressed and one that looks less worn. Probably to create the illusion of the passing of time in the movie, given that the distressed one appears at the end of the story.

I have never seen enough evidence that explains the Bantu Wind jacket (which is barely seen and only from an angle) other than speculation.

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:54 am

The source or our arguments is not unvalidated skepticism and we do not wish to start a debate.
The only purpose we serve is the quest for accuracy.
We believe we owe it to the fans (and ourselves) to try to create a jacket that is as close as possible (emphasis to possible) to the original.

Forrest For the Trees · Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:16 pm

From purely a fan point of view, I find all this really fascinating. The details of the Raiders jacket have always remained somewhat obscured. The buckles have always bugged me, as it seemed that no one ever got them exactly right. I loved the tri-glide buckles Tony was using on his Raiders jackets because they had a really slim profile and no hard corners, but they were silver in color, not black. As to the lining, I guess I care less about it because I know I prefer all cotton simply because I like the way it feels. That said, I understand the quest for 100% accuracy.

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:18 pm

afalzon wrote: Dear Stefan,

I based my opinion that the photo does not show a Raiders jacket on the fact that the construction details shown are not a match with a Raiders jacket but rather a TOD jacket. I will elaborate later and will show also photos for everyone to see and consider.

I hope I don't disturb my friend Stefan, answering now.
I dare because I'm quoted on your post.

Andy,
I think I understand why you think this is a TOD jacket.
Besides the 2-prong buckle, perhaps you are referring to the back panel side stitching seams
I can confirm that the RAIDERS back panel side stitching seams are 1/2 foot wide (instead of 1 foot wide)

I don't know if you are referring to something else.

afalzon wrote:Unless if, the jacket shown is the Bantu Wind/Prototype jacket which shares some construction details with the TOD jackets.
Yet, on another thread Indiego Jones who gets his info from you and the other gentlemen said that the Bantu Wind jacket does not have buckles, and I quote:

1) BANTU WIND jacket
Many similarities with ToD patterns. Same construction details.
Pockets: Smaller dimensions for the front pockets. (we didn't got the exact measurements)
Yoke: Larger yoke. About 7".
Pleats: Action pleats closed at bottom, with small opening.
Zipper: YKK silver zipper (size not confirmed)
Buckles: no buckles
Lining: 100% brown polyester
Condition: heavily distressed on back and front. Also important distress present on sleeves. Hole (ripped) on upper left sleeve.
No label
So it's a mystery and now we wonder whether ther was another jacket not shown in the film and used in the promo shots or not at all. Actually there is a promo shot with HF holding the idol and wearing a jacket that has not yet been identified. The shot is taken from an angle looking up. Anyone who knows the photo I am talking about please post it.

The jacket in the buckle picture, IS the one Harrison Ford wear in the jumping into the river shot.
It's safe to say that this jacket share pattern and construction details with the TRUCK jacket.
It isn't the BANTU jacket. Which have no buckles.

afalzon wrote:Then there is also this:

Also,it is important to note is that the lining on all four Indy jackets and especially the the Raiders jacket used a poly-blend of fabric for the inner lining and not cotton as previously stated by Peter and theorized by some as such.
Deborah’s fabric sample book which she donated to the Smithsonian even has a lining sample and it’s not cotton.
No matter how hard I tried, it's not possible to get the shirt fabric to look anything like what is shown in the film or what we have from MBA/NH shirts.

So if the shirt fabric in her sample book is not correct to the actual shirt why would the jacket lining be correct?

Furthermore, you said its a poly-blend (and I would go with that based on the photos) but Indiego Jones and his sources say

Lining: 100% brown polyester
So which is it?
Was there a tag in the lining that read 100% polyester and gave the washing instructions?
Are the archivist of the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art and Brandon Alinger fabric experts and can identify what is the lining made of by the look and feel of it? Or otherwise what method was used to identify it?

As you may know there several different materials that can be used for lining, for instance rayon, viscose, acetate, bemberg, poly/cotton blend, acetate/viscose blend, TriAcetate/Polyamide, Viscose Ermazine Taffeta and others. There is also polyester that looks so close to viscose that you wouldn't believe it. Do you think that Mr archivist and Mr Brandon Alinger are able to identify these fabrics?

So please excuse me but at least on the lining cannot go for what the credible sources say especially now that the sources contradict themselves, i.e. poly blend vs 100% polyester.

My theory is that Peter used cotton on the Bantu Wind/Prototype jacket (that's where his memory is from) and then used a different kind of lining on the jackets supplied later probably because he used what was available at the time.

That would make sense to justify Peter's memory, yet we hear from Indiego Jones that all surviving jackets (one of which identified as the BW) have the same lining.

We found the lining match, among the most difficult tasks to replicate.

For instance, we had in hand the LC Smithsonian jacket. That's the best way to see the real thing...you would say.
However, we had to try many, many fabrics until we found what convinced us the most.

With the RAIDERS lining is the same.
We've tried different fabrics, until we found the one that seemed the best match.

What it's 100% sure is: not cotton
That's why we state in this generic way: 100% brown polyester

So, we had to pick.
To us, the original RAIDERS lining is: Dark brown taffeta

We, at STEELE & JONES, spent and invested a whole year contacting people, finding clues, searching info...
Trying to connect dots between data provided by different sources.
It was a heII of hard work. And very difficult.

We are Fans too. We understand the need for reliable sources, official stated provenance, trusty background...etc
But not always you can get 100% of the information.

Best.-

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:24 pm

The information provided in this conversation is unclear and packs specificity.

Indigo Jones, when you say you had in hand the LC, do you mean you personally actually held this item to inspect it, or are you saying you had a third party you trust reported back to you their impressions?

So is the contested strap photo a ToD jacket or not? Can someone establish this point now?

On the lining, it sounds like you are saying it was probably polyester, based on the qualities of the fabric.

Indigo are you able to tell us are there any photos of the Bantu Wind jacket or has anyone seen this one in teh flesh? I ask because this was at one point the most disputed of all the jackets in Raiders and it would be nice to close that circle.

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:53 pm

CM wrote:The information provided in this conversation is unclear and packs specificity.

Indigo Jones, when you say you had in hand the LC, do you mean you personally actually held this item to inspect it, or are you saying you had a third party you trust reported back to you their impressions?

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=907952#p907952" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CM wrote: So is the contested strap photo a ToD jacket or not? Can someone establish this point now?

On my previous post

CM wrote: On the lining, it sounds like you are saying it was probably polyester, based on the qualities of the fabric.

Polyester is a generic term for synthetic fabrics.

CM wrote: Indigo are you able to tell us are there any photos of the Bantu Wind jacket or has anyone seen this one in teh flesh? I ask because this was at one point the most disputed of all the jackets in Raiders and it would be nice to close that circle.

The jacket we refer to is the one Terry Leonard used on his stunts.
We are convinced that's the Bantu
Bantu jacket is in the archives
Mark Raats saw it person on every detail
He shared all he saw with us
Brandon Alinger also. And shared with us too.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:24 am

Indiego Jones wrote:
CM wrote:The information provided in this conversation is unclear and packs specificity.

Indigo Jones, when you say you had in hand the LC, do you mean you personally actually held this item to inspect it, or are you saying you had a third party you trust reported back to you their impressions?
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=907952#p907952" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
CM wrote: So is the contested strap photo a ToD jacket or not? Can someone establish this point now?
On my previous post
CM wrote: On the lining, it sounds like you are saying it was probably polyester, based on the qualities of the fabric.
Polyester is a generic term for synthetic fabrics.
CM wrote: Indigo are you able to tell us are there any photos of the Bantu Wind jacket or has anyone seen this one in teh flesh? I ask because this was at one point the most disputed of all the jackets in Raiders and it would be nice to close that circle.
The jacket we refer to is the one Terry Leonard used on his stunts.
We are convinced that's the Bantu
Bantu jacket is in the archives
Mark Raats saw it person on every detail
He shared all he saw with us
Brandon Alinger also. And shared with us too.

Thanks for the response. Wow - i missed that vault information. Fascinating.