Raiders Rabbit Poet vs Raiders Beaver Poet

[jgino]

Which one should I purchase? I'm looking for one I can wear regularly especially when camping and hiking. I'm also looking for something that looks just like the Raiders hat. Are these hats good for that or should I look at another vendor? Thanks.

[Howard Weinstein]

Which one should I purchase? I'm looking for one I can wear regularly especially when camping and hiking. I'm also looking for something that looks just like the Raiders hat. Are these hats good for that or should I look at another vendor? Thanks.

I'm no expert, but you probably can't go wrong with either one.
However, since you're planning on wearing the hat while hiking and camping, since the rabbit is 150 pounds/$200 less expensive than the beaver (at that level, the word "cheaper just doesn't seem to fit!), would you feel better about exposing a less-expensive hat to that kind of wear and tear?

Unless, of course, you have an unlimited budget!

Others with more direct comparative knowledge of brand vs. brand can tell you more than I can.
But if you don't have your heart set on an actual Herbert Johnson Poet, there are other great Indy hats available at a variety of prices, too -- AdVintage/Harrison, Penman/Everyman, Brian Lalonde, Hufvud Hatters in Sweden, Steele & Jones, to name a few (I'm sure I'm forgetting others who also make great hats).

I'm sure others will chime in with helpful feedback for you. But you came to the right place to ask questions!

[Castor Dioscuri]

Depends on what you're comfortable with, really. If you don't mind potentially dirtying up or even (gasp) losing an expensive beaver felt, then by all means, go with that one. It's definitely going to be more durable than rabbit in the long run, but that's mainly when it comes to water and shrinkage, and even then, I'm not completely convinced there is a significant difference.

If it were me, I'd go with rabbit.

[Jeremiah]

Old rabbit would have lasted. I would not waste money on a pure rabbit hat today. Even Art Fawcett told me to skip on rabbit If I want it to last. Beaver all the way and who cares if it’s lost. Never heard of a fedora being lost but hopefully you are responsible right? Hats are tools. Meant to get dirty. Use them. They will only look better and more like the film used one. I could not disagree with castor any more.

[Mulceber]

I think I'm somewhere between the two positions. Good rabbit can be pretty tough, but there's no beating the water repellent qualities of beaver. It's quite literally born with it. Both sides have their pros and cons:

Rabbit: cheaper, more screen accurate - beaver is denser and is very difficult to get to the floppiness of rabbit, although Penman's new lightweight Portuguese beaver might prove me wrong.
Beaver: better in water, generally a nicer pounce, probably a bit tougher all around, depending on which beaver you're comparing to which rabbit.

If you've decided you want HJ, then I'd say go for rabbit, if only for the complete package: original name, original felt.

If money's no object, I'd say order one of Penman's new lightweight Portuguese beavers. Most people would think twice about that price point though: $850, plus shipping.

If you want a good Indy hat, HJ's really not your only option, and there's hats of equal quality at lower prices: Penman's Everyman, S&J, advintage.

[Jeremiah]

I have a penman raiders that is not Portuguese (fepsa) felt. If it were any floppier it would not happen Hold its shape.

[jlee562]

Floppiness/stiffness has less to do with the fur content and more to do with the felting process (impregnation of shellac) and finishing technique.

I actually think the (relatively higher) density of vintage felts (rabbit or beaver) is a major reason vintage felts behave the way they do. The average dress weight felt today will be thicker and less dense than a vintage felt. Comparing vintage and modern western weight felts amplifies the difference. I have a rabbit Penman for example, which is thicker than my 1910's Stetson Boss Raw Edge. It should also be noted that even if we could somehow objectively deduce the felt quality of the screen used hat, whatever was being produced in 80's was not exactly the peak of hat industry quality.

Winchester's lightweight beaver felt (available from Art and others) more closely approximates the thickness of vintage felts and is much easier to shape.

All of which is a long way to say, even though the screen used hat is rabbit felt, I don't think it precludes the possibility of a beaver felt being every bit as "screen accurate." JMHO, if you have the budget for beaver, get beaver.

[Mulceber]

All this is fair. My experience has been that beaver hats are generally stiffer than rabbit: I own ABs, hats by Art Fawcett, a few Optimos - all stiff. I know John can make a floppy beaver, but he’s ALSO the one who advertises on his site that he had an entirely new set of blocks made for his beaver Raiders hats, since beaver felt responds differently to blocking - and that’s something that goes beyond stiffness or lack thereof - it’s simply a product of beaver being denser. I know HJ is doing some good work, but I don’t think they have THAT kind of attention to detail. I suspect a beaver Raiders hat from them would not have the Raiders look in the way that John’s do.

[jlee562]

Since I am not the Raiders expert, what would you identify from the available pictures online that makes John's beaver hats more accurate than what HJ is offering?

I know it's a slightly apples to oranges comparison because there is no turn on the HJ hat. But to my uncritical/untrained eye, the beaver Poet pictured online sure looks like the Raiders hat.

....although maybe that is opening a can of worms unnecessarily?

[eazybox]

Since I am not the Raiders expert, what would you identify from the available pictures online that makes John's beaver hats more accurate than what HJ is offering?

I know it's a slightly apples to oranges comparison because there is no turn on the HJ hat. But to my uncritical/untrained eye, the beaver Poet pictured online sure looks like the Raiders hat.

....although maybe that is opening a can of worms unnecessarily?

One point-- unless they've changed since Jack left, the HJs can be made however you request, with or without the turn or with other customized detailing. And I have opinions on the appearance of some of the more recent Penman offerings I've seen, but I'll leave that debate to others. Your own eyes are the best judge anyway.

Personally, for an authentic beaten-up Raiders look, I really like the Advantage Streets of Cairo.

[Castor Dioscuri]

Since I am not the Raiders expert, what would you identify from the available pictures online that makes John's beaver hats more accurate than what HJ is offering?

I know it's a slightly apples to oranges comparison because there is no turn on the HJ hat. But to my uncritical/untrained eye, the beaver Poet pictured online sure looks like the Raiders hat.

....although maybe that is opening a can of worms unnecessarily?

[jlee562]

Well, in any event, the OP didn't note how important being 100% SA was, "just something that looks like the Raiders hat." This non-Raiders expert picks the HJ...perhaps I'm picking out of ignorance, but what's pictured online pushes all the buttons for me.

So not withstanding choosing between two blocks, my general felt recommendation is still beaver. Part of it is that, for me, if you're going to get a custom, go all out. You're spending a good chunk of change of something that will hopefully last a lifetime. Get the best you can afford.

[Mulceber]

I don't want to open that can of worms, so I'm not going to speak to any of HJs claims, or any of the assertions that have been made by other members of the forum. I'm willing to credit that maybe Jack did find the original block, although I'm no longer sure. Some folks definitely got great looking hats. I can only compare my HJ rabbit to my ABL from John:



My observations about the hats: the HJ's crown really is too tall, at least if you wear a size 60 like I do. The bash is my doing, and isn't as nice as the one on the ABL, but it's still better than what it was out of the box. The ABL, meanwhile, was perfect out of the box (except for the size, which was a bit big, but the lampshade trick took care of that and added a hint of reverse taper to boot!)

Well, in any event, the OP didn't note how important being 100% SA was, "just something that looks like the Raiders hat."

This is true. If you look at my original post though, my point was that different qualities matter to different people. Having THE hat is what some people want. Others want the best hat money can buy, others want a decent approximation at a decent price. Ultimately, the OP has to decide which qualities he cares about.

Part of it is that, for me, if you're going to get a custom, go all out. You're spending a good chunk of change of something that will hopefully last a lifetime. Get the best you can afford.

And that's totally a reasonable approach. I'm coming from the position that if you're going to go for the name, you might as well get it in the original material as well, but my priorities aren't everyone's.

[jgino]

To clarify, I am looking for as screen accurate as possible. However; I don't want to be one of those guys buying different hats spending $200 here and there searching for the perfect hat. I want to buy one really good hat that I can wear on a regular basis and hopefully with the proper care it will last me many years. Right now I'm leaning toward the Raiders Beaver Poet but am open to suggestions from people that know more then I do and have been collecting for years.

[Mulceber]

To clarify, I am looking for as screen accurate as possible. However; I don't want to be one of those guys buying different hats spending $200 here and there searching for the perfect hat. I want to buy one really good hat that I can wear on a regular basis and hopefully with the proper care it will last me many years. Right now I'm leaning toward the Raiders Beaver Poet but am open to suggestions from people that know more then I do and have been collecting for years.

My ABL from Penman Hats is the closest hat I've to the Raiders hat I've ever owned, and I've owned a fair few Raiders hats. If you're looking for beaver, he's got some nice, floppy beaver hats, both Portuguese and regular beaver. If I could only own one Raiders hat, it would be a Penman.

[eazybox]

Well, in any event, the OP didn't note how important being 100% SA was, "just something that looks like the Raiders hat." This non-Raiders expert picks the HJ...perhaps I'm picking out of ignorance, but what's pictured online pushes all the buttons for me.

So not withstanding choosing between two blocks, my general felt recommendation is still beaver. Part of it is that, for me, if you're going to get a custom, go all out. You're spending a good chunk of change of something that will hopefully last a lifetime. Get the best you can afford.

Although I'm not an expert on what different blocks do to different felts, I also had "all the buttons" pushed by HJ's reboot. I've said this before and gotten grief for it, but I'll say it again, because it's true: I've never owned a hat, or seen one on line, that more closely resembles the Raiders look, from every angle, than the one Jack made for me. Others came close, but never gave me that "eureka" feeling. If he didn't actually re-discover the original block, then Jack was able to find one that came so close to it that it finally ended a 35 year old quest for me. I know this sounds a bit over the top, but it was my experience. I have also heard varying experiences, like the one just posted by Mulceber. Some of the hats turned out by Jack did look too tall, and some of his bashes weren't quite right. I guess I was one of the lucky ones. As some eBay sellers say, "variations will vary." The current management at HJ is also turning out some great looking hats, but I only have direct experience with the one I got from Jack.

To anyone trying to make an informed decision, I would just advise them to compare Mulceber's excellent looking ABL to some of Penman's more recent offerings, like the one posted October 1st on his Facebook page.

[Mulceber]

Although I'm not an expert on what different blocks do to different felts, I also had "all the buttons" pushed by HJ's reboot. I've said this before and gotten grief for it, but I'll say it again, because it's true: I've never owned a hat, or seen one on line, that more closely resembles the Raiders look, from every angle, than the one Jack made for me.

Very true - I've seen your HJ from Jack and it looks excellent.

The current management at HJ is also turning out some great looking hats, but I only have direct experience with the one I got from Jack.

I haven't actually seen any of them. I'd be curious to see what some of HJ's current offerings look like - has anybody on here posted any pictures?

To anyone trying to make an informed decision, I would just advise them to compare Mulceber's excellent looking ABL to some of Penman's more recent offerings, like the one posted October 1st on his Facebook page.

I'm not entirely sure which ones you're referring to, but if it's the ones I'm thinking of with the extreme reverse taper, I think that had less to do with Penman's skills and more to do with what the customers wanted. Too many people don't realize that the reverse taper on the Cairo hat was subtle. If you try to push it beyond that, you get a hat that looks like it belongs in a cartoon.

[Howard Weinstein]

To clarify, I am looking for as screen accurate as possible. However; I don't want to be one of those guys buying different hats spending $200 here and there searching for the perfect hat. I want to buy one really good hat that I can wear on a regular basis and hopefully with the proper care it will last me many years. Right now I'm leaning toward the Raiders Beaver Poet but am open to suggestions from people that know more then I do and have been collecting for years.

Your approach to this purchase is a sound one, I think -- get the best hat you can afford, the one that most closely gives you what you're after in terms of look and quality.

Lots of guys here have been really happy with their beaver hats from AdVintage. I have one on its way across the ocean now (although mine is gray, to get close to the Crystal Skull train hat). Thomas at AdVintage has earned high praise for nailing the various looks and bashes seen in Raiders. And at right around $350 (including shipping to the US) his beaver hats are among the more affordable ones.

https://www.replix.de/en/advintage-fedo ... 100x?c=233" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[eazybox]

Although I'm not an expert on what different blocks do to different felts, I also had "all the buttons" pushed by HJ's reboot. I've said this before and gotten grief for it, but I'll say it again, because it's true: I've never owned a hat, or seen one on line, that more closely resembles the Raiders look, from every angle, than the one Jack made for me.

Very true - I've seen your HJ from Jack and it looks excellent.

The current management at HJ is also turning out some great looking hats, but I only have direct experience with the one I got from Jack.

I haven't actually seen any of them. I'd be curious to see what some of HJ's current offerings look like - has anybody on here posted any pictures?

To anyone trying to make an informed decision, I would just advise them to compare Mulceber's excellent looking ABL to some of Penman's more recent offerings, like the one posted October 1st on his Facebook page.

I'm not entirely sure which ones you're referring to, but if it's the ones I'm thinking of with the extreme reverse taper, I think that had less to do with Penman's skills and more to do with what the customers wanted. Too many people don't realize that the reverse taper on the Cairo hat was subtle. If you try to push it beyond that, you get a hat that looks like it belongs in a cartoon.

Yes, those are the ones I'm referring to, and the phrase "Hirschfeld caricature" did come to mind. I've seen several like that from Penman over the last year or so. Not sure why, because he's proven himself capable of much better work; perhaps it is what customers are requesting, as you suggest. But these hats also have very shiny ribbons that are another concern when it comes to accuracy. I guess the thing for a prospective customer to do would be to ask Penman himself what's going on there.

[jlee562]

Whether or not Jack/HJ found literally "the" block which was used to make Ford's hat or whether they're using a new set of blocks fabricated to an older set, etc, is uninteresting to me.

I can only judge the final product, and I'm going off what's currently pictured in the Swaine Adney Brigg site and HJ Facebook pages.

Funny that you use the word "caricature," eazy. Since the HJ's have been out, I can't help but see so many other Indy offerings as caricatures of the real block shape as well, and that's exactly what my internal monologue has been when seeing certain Penmans.

[eazybox]

Whether or not Jack/HJ found literally "the" block which was used to make Ford's hat or whether they're using a new set of blocks fabricated to an older set, etc, is uninteresting to me.

I can only judge the final product, and I'm going off what's currently pictured in the Swaine Adney Brigg site and HJ Facebook pages.

Funny that you use the word "caricature," eazy. Since the HJ's have been out, I can't help but see so many other Indy offerings as caricatures of the real block shape as well, and that's exactly what my internal monologue has been when seeing certain Penmans.

Yes, and from someone like Penman who, demonstrably, has done much better work, it's a bit of a mystery.

[Mulceber]

But these hats also have very shiny ribbons that are another concern when it comes to accuracy. I guess the thing for a prospective customer to do would be to ask Penman himself what's going on there.

Yeah, I’ve noticed that too - I think he only uses that ribbon on his penman custom line, since the ribbons on the ABL are much better. I’m sure John would be willing to use the ABL ribbon for any hat you order, but I agree it’s weird that a lot of his hats have that shiny ribbon.

[Indiana Croft]

Just my two cents.
I have an Adventure built beaver, owned now going on 15+ years, couple red locks.
If there talking rain, it’s my go to hat.
Now if the weather is clear my ABL from Penman is my go to.

If your going to wear it hiking a lot, well beaver would be my choice of felt, can take a beating and still look like “the” hat. When out in the elements a rabbit might taper and then off to the reblock it goes.
But a beaver felt will cause you to over heat and sweat, and the rabbit not so much.

So in the end, your looking at wanting a hat that can do it all for low bucks, I don’t think it can be done.

Yup you need two hats.
Once you start down this path, for ever will it dominate. I know like so many others, 6 hats and counting, others have far more.


Croft

[eazybox]

I don't need the kind of aggravation I experienced earlier today and have been experiencing regularly here, so this will be my last post, at least for awhile. Any of the suggestions above would be an excellent choice, based on consistently good customer reviews. Not sure, but I don't believe the Federation 4 by Akubra was mentioned. Although it's made of rabbit fur and relatively inexpensive, it has a reputation for being extremely tough and weather-resistant.

One good thing about this hobby is that there are a plethora of great products and great manufacturers from which to choose-- if you are able to distinguish honest viewpoints and advice from forum politics, which is not always easy to do.

Jack

[RegDwight]

Just wanted to chime in that I appreciated your (eazybox) posts. It might be nice knowing that your input has been appreciated by some. I do agree that Herbert Johnson’s current offerings look very good as does the block shape. And I’m happy that you’ve found the hat that ended your quest!

[Jeremiah]

Just my two cents.
I have an Adventure built beaver, owned now going on 15+ years, couple red locks.
If there talking rain, it’s my go to hat.
Now if the weather is clear my ABL from Penman is my go to.

If your going to wear it hiking a lot, well beaver would be my choice of felt, can take a beating and still look like “the” hat. When out in the elements a rabbit might taper and then off to the reblock it goes.
But a beaver felt will cause you to over heat and sweat, and the rabbit not so much.

So in the end, your looking at wanting a hat that can do it all for low bucks, I don’t think it can be done.

Yup you need two hats.
Once you start down this path, for ever will it dominate. I know like so many others, 6 hats and counting, others have far more.


Croft

Well put Croft. Well put indeed. And I even like the color..

[RiffRalf]

Which one should I purchase? I'm looking for one I can wear regularly especially when camping and hiking. I'm also looking for something that looks just like the Raiders hat. Are these hats good for that or should I look at another vendor? Thanks.

Check the Hufvud thread just below. I just bought a hat, an Advintage factory line hat which is a great hat for the price but for not much more you can go custom from Hufvud

[eazybox]

Just wanted to chime in that I appreciated your (eazybox) posts. It might be nice knowing that your input has been appreciated by some. I do agree that Herbert Johnson’s current offerings look very good as does the block shape. And I’m happy that you’ve found the hat that ended your quest!

Thanks, RegDwight. Davy Crockett said "Be sure you're right, then go ahead." I could continue fighting but frankly, these are hats at best, and costume items at the very least, that we are talking about, and It simply is not worth the aggravation to have to constantly come on here and defend myself against ridiculous insinuations. This forum should be a fun diversion, not a petty and toxic shouting contest. Since the other guy has made it abundantly clear he's not willing to let the conflict drop, it isn't fair to the other members of the forum (hopefully the majority) who just want to have lively but civil exchanges of information, for me to stay on at this time.

Last post +1.

Jack

[RegDwight]

I completely understand how things can get carried away, and I appreciate your sentiments and reasons. I think part of the reason for this is that nowadays, ALL of these hats by various hatters have gotten SO good. That isn’t such a bad problem to have on the whole. Compared to years ago. It’s understandable that people might get overly passionate about which hat is the “best” with the differences in certain small details that matter to one individual or another. Competition from vendors for our business and pride of ownership can make these feelings flair, but in the end, no matter which is chosen (except Dorfman Pacific ) it’s going to be a nice hat. And multiple great hats give us excuses to get more hats

[alaska_mcghee]

I have several rabbit and beaver hats. If it was me looking for a hat to last a lifetime, I would go for beaver. I have an Adventurebilt and several Art Fawcett creations and none of them have shrunk. Not the hat, the sweatband though is another story. Invest in a hat stretcher/forum to keep the hat the proper size. With that said I would also look at how long it would take to have the hat made up and do they renovate the hats. Eventually the sweatband will fall apart, sweat stains will show thru and UV degradation can start affecting the hat. We are talking years of use but it will happen with regular wear with all hats. Just something to keep in mind.
Good luck.
For those looking at HJ check out their Instagram page for regular updates on what they are coming up with next.
Johnny