Bullwhip recommendations - EU based

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:49 am

It really was great for a laugh! I just sent the left pic to a friend, saying my new whip had finally arrived and asked him what he thought of it...

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:51 am

I'm sure he said: "Please tell me you didn't pay money for that."

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:17 am

Sorry for the blurry pic of a pic but this is me holding one of those cheap Zorro whips at 4 years old along with my blue safari hat; my first foray into Indy gear. I always knew it didn’t look right, and so began my expensive journey.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:35 am

My first was a 4-plait cowhide swivel handle whip made in Mexico, cost $30 at a local farm & ranch supply store. We all have to start somewhere, and the only way to go is up!

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:41 am

Ah, don't worry IndyFam, you were ages ahead of me. My first "whip" was made out of woven yarn with a sewn 'pleather' handle. I was also about four years old, or younger, and had no idea what whips were, except that they were awesome and close to being magical!

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:47 am

Whips ARE magical... they can make large amounts of $$$ just vanish from your bank account - and you're still compelled to buy another one!

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:51 am

whipwarrior wrote:Whips ARE magical... they can make large amounts of $$$ just vanish from your bank account - and you're still compelled to buy another one!

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:04 pm

Right you are, WW!

PS: I keep peeking at picture above, with your whip from Jeremy. It's a really nice one. I like the accents of the knots!

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:43 pm

The difference was more prominent when the whip was brand new:

It was inspired by an original DM Classic bullwhip that sold on eBay years ago. The heel knot was dark red, while the rest of the whip was natural tan. I saved the auction photos because of how nice it looked, so I handily had them for reference when I commissioned my replica back in 2013. Jeremy predicted that as the whip aged, the colors would nicely blend together, so the contrast is more subtle, but still quite elegant.

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:58 pm

Wow, thank you for the pics!

Gotta say it again: That is one gorgeous whip!

I can really see what you said earlier, about the strands seeming to be almost machine cut. Amazing skill!

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:22 pm

Machines are accurate & precise, but not that skillful. Only human hands are capable of making a whip that perfect!

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:21 pm

Agreed, with one addition: only 'certain' human hands. I think there is a certain talent, inclination, relentlesness and huge dedication required for such results.

A combination of qualities that gives us our much beloved whips and other wonderfully hand made items.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:56 pm

Oh, absolutely. I marveled at Jeremy's skills throughout the process of making my Indy whip. I said he must have some type of intense mental programming to keep track of braiding all those leather strands into a cohesive pattern. I've seen videos of whip makers at work, so I understand the basic process, but it's astonishing how a person can handle so many variables and make it look effortless in the process.

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:07 pm

Plaiting can be quite relaxing when you get into a good pace, but mastering the patterns is hard indeed. Especially at high count plaits, everything gets tangled up. I had situations where I was pulling a strand, and pulling, and pulling just to end up at another connected end. (I hadn't realised two strands had stuck their ends together...).

But I am no whipmaker, so for me it all just seems like a highly complicated process. As you said, I also understand the basics mostly.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:08 pm

This is probably the most anguishing review I've ever had to write, because I cannot fault any whip maker who puts so much passion and dedication into the complete mastery of their craft. A quality whip (or any hand-crafted object) takes pure God-given talent to bring into existence, and I would never disavow an artist of their natural gift. So the following review is not intended to impugn the work of a world-class artisan who deserves all of the accolades his reputation has rightfully earned.

As an avid whip cracker for over 20 years, I have handled whips by a variety of makers, predominantly the legendary Mr. David Morgan, whose Indiana Jones bullwhip so seduced me in my formative years and set me on the path of this wonderful hobby. Since then, I've owned several DM whips, in lengths ranging from 6 to 12 feet, so I am well-versed in the handling characteristics across the spectrum. Experience has made me so accustomed to the weighty, solid heft of Morgan style bullwhips that anything else feels anemic by comparison. Some might say this is a flaw of personal bias, which I duly acknowledge, as it has tremendous bearing on my review.

From the outset, I wanted a 16-strand Zorro bullwhip in the same style as David Morgan's classic bullwhip. I paid for the whip back in the spring, then waited patiently more than 5 months. Anticipation ran high, based on unanimous (and very warranted) praise for Giovanni's exceptional quality. My expectations were piqued by the progress pictures Gio sent me as he built the whip to my exact specifications. I figured this was a slam dunk. What I neglected to realize is that while a whip might appear utterly flawless on screen, it is not until you get the product in hand are the performance characteristics revealed.

This evening I conducted a 20-minute cracking session with both the new Giovanni Celeste Zorro bullwhip, and the JM Indy classic bullwhip, which it was patterned on. At first glance, they look nearly identical, but I discovered a world of difference when I started throwing them around. Jeremy's whip is substantially heavier. Driven by its own weight and velocity, the lash travels swiftly and cracks with little effort, whereas Giovanni’s bullwhip is very light and ‘floaty’, requiring more muscle to generate a crack. Now I truly cringe to say this, but compared to DM and JM kangaroo whips, this one feels like it's braided out of paper-mâché. It flies in the direction thrown, but lacks the body weight necessary to keep it rolling in a hairpin curl. With minimal effort, a properly-weighted whip will shoot out like a parabolic arrow to achieve a satisfying crack. The Zorro bullwhip flails out with a tendency to drift sideways, meandering off-target in a very frustrating manner. Quite a conundrum for such a magnificently-crafted whip.

Here, it must be said that Giovanni's work is absolutely world class. The lash is very solid and compact, with finely-cut and beveled strands plaited into a supple, glass-smooth cord of unbelievable tightness. It is magnificently crafted. Absolutely gorgeous to run your hands over. There’s not a single blemish along its entire length. But the handle foundation and thong simply do not have the weight necessary to perform rapid throws and smoothly recoil for a new set-up. Several factors may account for this flaw. First, the thong tapers off dramatically where it leaves the handle, narrowing quickly from the handle transition into the middle section of the lash. Second, Giovanni’s strands appear to be pared more thinly than David Morgan’s overlay. The effect reminds me of a Bernie Wojcicki bullwhip I once had: extremely tight, glass-smooth plaiting, but also very lightweight. The combination of thinner strands forming a narrower thong produces a whip of less density and mass, resulting in a whip only half the weight of similar style bullwhips. The net effect is that while Giovanni’s whip is a glorious artistic object, the divergence between style and performance is like having a Ferrari with a go-kart engine under the hood.

But please do not allow my critique to deter anyone from obtaining an extremely high quality whip from this outstanding leather artisan. My whip spec preferences are suited to my own style of cracking, much the same way that bowling balls of different weights & balances exist for the needs of the individual bowler. To each his own.

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:35 am

I feel for you! The second whip I ever owned was exactly like you describe and it was very frustrating! As a former whipmaker myself, I think part of the problem might be in the weight of the hides used. Morgan whips and most Indy styles from other whipmakers use medium heavy / heavy roohides. A whip made using lighter weight hides will efffectively involve a lot less leather over all.

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:29 am

Thank you for the detailed review, WW! I am sorry that you the whip doesn't meet your expectations.

I've had this happen to me quite a few times, not with whips, but other, just as expensive items. You research, read reviews and find the perfect item. Praises from users, good price, everything. So you get your hopes up and when you finally get it, it is a bit disappointing, or worse... a LOT disappointing.

The whip looks really great, very nice and tight, beautifully made. It is really a shame it does not perform as you expected.

Maybe you could discuss with Giovanni? Give him a feedback and improvement ideas? He's given a lot of dedication towards this craft and I think constructive criticism, presented in a polite manner, would be welcome.

Cheers,
Bear

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:25 am

Thanks, guys. Yes it is a bit disappointing, and I agree that the weight of the hide used makes all the difference in the world in the whip's performance. It really is a magnificent whip, except it's just too light; It floats rather than slashes, and the difference is audible, producing a light swishing noise rather than a sharp, deadly snarl. Basically, it feels like a very high quality costume whip, much as I hate to admit.

I told Jeremy that if he ever decides to get back into the whip biz, I'd be the first one in line. He replied:

Of all the whips I’ve made, (I kept count for a time then lost interest in the number) your classic Indy is one I am most proud of. So many factors go into making a good whip and the sad fact is, despite my best intentions some turned out better than others. Sometimes leagues better. With your classic Indy there happened the perfect storm for a good whip, and I’m glad it was yours because you became one of my favorites to interact with! You are in my contacts so if I do jump into the game again, I’ll be sure to let you know. It’s definitely a possibility. Once I’m finished with training and hired on as a medic and firefighter, the fantastic schedule allows for other endeavors.

So, let's keep our fingers crossed that Jeremy returns to the whip workshop in the near future!

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:41 am

Do you have a scale to weigh both whips? I would love to see how much they weigh.

When I was looking for my Indy whip, I knew I wanted it to be heavy. When I chose the whipmaker - Ben Scott - I told him that one of my most important specs in the weight. He made my whip heavy. And I like it very much.

Did you specified anything beside color, style and plait count? Or search the market to know what whips Giovanni makes?

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:55 am

Yes, I have a postal scale to weigh both whips, but I'll have to do it after work. When I ordered with Giovanni, I specified the whip details, but didn't mention anything about the weight because all the photos of his Indy whips looked perfect; I just figured the heavy weighting was a given for that style bullwhip.

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:38 pm

Please weigh them when you have a chance.

Does the whip has lead under the buttknot?

Is it the photo or the whip has a bulge just past the ringknot and two inches further it gets back to its 'normal' diameter'?

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 pm

If the whip has any lead weighting in the heel knot, it's very minimal. The lash taper after the ring knot is a characteristic of the whip, as illustrated in the comparison photos above. That feature is not really noticeable when viewed from any other angle except directly from above, which is why I didn't notice it in photos that Giovanni sent me last month. I just weighed both whips on the scale for comparison, and Jeremy's whip weighs 1.75 pounds, whereas Giovanni's whip is 1.25 pounds - quite a difference!

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:46 pm

That is quite big difference, no wonder that it feels totally different to crack them. My Indy whip, 9 footer by Ben Scott weighs 1.83 pounds and it just cracks by itself.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:56 pm

That's the difference between a properly balanced whip and a lightweight one - heavy whips virtually crack themselves with the slightest flick. All the weight is kinetically shot forward thru the lash to produce a satisfying gunshot crack. Another session with the Zorro bullwhip revealed the cause of the performance flaw: the transition zone. As I threw the whip back and forth, trying to hit a consistent target area, I noticed how quickly the lash flops over just above the handle. Once the thong leaves the reinforced foundation, it drops like a wet rope. Lacking the gradual yet robust curve necessary to travel along a consistent trajectory, the whip tends to veer sideways in a surprisingly erratic flight path. As it rolls out, the lash flails upward in a large loop (rather than a dynamic elliptical hairpin), and cracks hollowly as the energy is quickly dissipated by the lightweight thong. This also affects the return spring when I draw it back for another throw, causing the fall & cracker to tangle around the point of the whip.

Bottom line: This is a very beautiful whip that is unsatisfying to use. Regrettably, I have no choice but to put it up for sale.

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:59 am

I agree. You will get frustrated everytime you crack it. Sell it and keep looking for your 'another holy grail'

Now you know what do you want

By the way - how heavy is your Morgan whip?

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:55 am

Whipwarrior, Giovanni is supposed to be part of Robby Amper's "Ring of Trust", a couple of makers guranteeing each others work:

http://www.whip-basics.com/trust/whipmakers.php

I would say this is a quality issue and you could discuss first with Gio and if not then with the rest...

Just my two cents.

Cheers,
Bear

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:23 am

My DM whip (8-ft.) also weighs 1.75 lbs - same as Jeremy's Indy whip. As far as the Ring of trust, since the whip is extremely well-made, I don't consider it a defective product. Those characteristics are simply a result of how Giovanni prefers to make his whips. I had no way of knowing how it would handle until I got the whip in hand. So there's no point in me rattling windows up the chain of command to complain that the whip doesn't perform to my personal standards, because that's not the maker's fault. As I said before, the craftsmanship is absolutely top notch. You really couldn't ask for a higher quality whip. It's just that it doesn't suit my throwing style, and it never will. I'll probably list it on eBay this weekend and see if I can give it a good home. Ironically, this is my second unhappy whip purchase this year. Back in the spring, I bought a 6-foot Terry Jacka Australian bullwhip from WSP, and the result was similar dissatisfaction in the whip's performance. I sold that one shortly thereafter also. I think Jeremy has spoiled me for other whip makers!

P.S. - I already have my Holy Grail whip, I was just looking for its companion. I'm confident that Jeremy will return to the whip making biz (at least on a part-time basis) someday, so I will wait patiently until then.

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:19 am

Well, I really think it is awesome that you found 'your' whipmaker, even if you can't enjoy other 'brands' as much now.

This rarely happens for collectors, as it takes a huge amount of time, money, and investigstion.

I used to collect swords, and I learned from there you can't rely on others opinions. For the steel quality, tempering, etc, maybe, but the rest is really personal choice.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:24 am

Yes, it can be restrictive being limited to the whips of a particular maker, because those are the ones that work best for me. But that's how the cookie crumbles, as they say. It's also annoying that David Morgan's company charges so much for their whips, since they still offer the #453 in black (a.k.a. - the original Mask of Zorro bullwhip). Morgan taught his apprentices well, in that I've seen Indy whips made by them after Morgan retired which look exactly like his own work, but even an extremely well-made whip is not worth $1K, regardless of the price of roo hide. At the end of the day, it's just a whip. I appreciate quality work and I'm willing to shell out several hundred bills for it, but I'm not going to break the bank on a braided leather cord, regardless of its pedigree. There are about a dozen exceptional whipmakers around the world, and they all produce work equal or greater than the DM shop, whose prices seem to (absurdly) reflect a perceived monopoly on whip making, as if they're still the only game in town, as the case was 30 years ago. It also doesn't help that they flatly refuse to do custom work of any kind, especially when you can get a 100% custom-spec whip from virtually any other maker for half the price DM charges.

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:50 am

I have read somewhere on this forum that the modern Morgan (not made by David himself) whips are not that high quality any more. Sloppy loose braiding, wet rope even when new. And some bad customer service on top.

But as you said, even without this, $1000 for a bullwhip is a lot, considering the quality other makers can offer for half the price.

Cheers,
Bear

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:23 am

Funny thing is, the DM website is still using photos of whips that David himself made, which is misleading. People think they're getting the product pictured, when in fact they aren't. That's blatantly false advertising. I have the feeling that they aren't selling many whips these days simply due to their exorbitant pric tag. A quality-made whip is a niche hobby accessory, not a necessity (and certainly not an investent).

UPDATE: 1/6/18 - I finally sold the Zorro whip on eBay, and immediately used the $$ to buy the new Wested LC Hero jacket!

giovanniceleste · Post by **giovanniceleste** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:18 am

Hello everyone and hello whipwarrior,
I apologize for my no-prompt replay but I've been very busy with my work.
However, I have found the time to respond because i think that it’s right and proper to do so.

However, here I’m with my feedback...
For every craftsman who loves his work there are two most important things:
1) do his job better
2) fully meet customer expectations
Unfortunately, sometimes the two objectives do not always coincide/meet.

When this happens it is never a good thing but above all it’s not nice to discover the first perplexities of the customer directly on a forum and not directly through an e-mail from the customer to the whipmaker.
Especially if the whipmaker is not limited to building a whip for a customer but develops/agrees all the specifications of the whip and updates him during the various steps (via an heavy exchange of emails/ posts etc…. !)

This has always been my way of working and those who know me can confidently confirm it, but for those who don’t know me will be able to find out.

To be even more precise I was not aware of arrival of the whip to the customer (I did discover it by checking track number). A little bit sad after all...

What I can say about the weight difference is given by the different weight between vegetable-tanned kangaroo skin (used by me) and drum stuffed kangaroo skin.

I prefer to use vegetable tanned kangaroo leather, this is not a mystery because is written on my home page of my website as usually on that of every whipmaker.

It's really a pity that in addition to all the features required of your whip it was not specified weight required.

Maybe this would not be enough , because a whip sometimes is a personal feeling, but at least I could do it.
If you had asked me I would have certainly modified for you my style of construction of whips increasing the weight.
What would have happened if I had built a very heavy whip when you (maybe) preferred a lighter model?
We both would have been dissatisfied with our product.
I think it is always better to spend one more word than one word less.
If it had gone this way, today we would not be here to talk about it and your whip maybe would not be on ebay in the hands of an anonymous buyer.
But this is another story and not ours ....
The beautiful photos on a site are certainly to give the customer a more accurate view of the product, to understand the care of all the details of the whip, the shape and so on.
For this reason I always put many photos both on my site and in the social media ie forums or fb.

But there is information that a picture never tells...
In these cases it is necessary to talk about.
As I wrote before whip sometimes is a personal feeling and who knows my whips appreciate this characteristics.
As a matter of fact I’m proud to let you know I’m making - for the second time - a 6ft whip for a famous American performer ( that already owner of several whip records). This time he asked me to make a whip for a new world record!! I apologize but still I am not allowed to show his name.
Last year I built a new whip for Robert Amper after a previously reviewed 10ft indy style.
The whip had a twisted handle about 50cm long 12 plait overlay double core one plaited belly and bolster.
At the first approach, Robert himself had said these textual words:
"I have nothing in my hands"
Heavy words for a light whip

) but he then understood how to make it "speak".
In that case the right key was to use the whip lightly (finesse) to get more reaction of the whip.

If you are interested these are the two links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCSlJw8JPb0&t=129s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VECFrRLBhY&t=926s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We could still talk for whole days to exchange different interesting perspectives.
What I can say is that it probably was not the right whip for the right hand.
Jeremy's fault

)

Whipwarrior if there will be another opportunity, next time if you want we will also center the weight.
So, according to your personal taste, you’ll have a Ferrari inside and out!
Thanks for your attention
Giovanni Celeste

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:06 am

Hi, Gio! Thank you for taking the time to present your point of view and your side of the story!

From my side, I can confirm the multitude of emails in which you asked me of every detail of the whip, before and even during construction.

Yours was my first roo hide whip, having handled only my paracord ones before and I am becoming more and more impressed with it.

The rollout during cracking is close to magic, the loop seems to be almost unnaturally smooth.

And regarding the weight, I highly appreciate the lightness of it. After a few hours cracking, my arms started cramping and I could no longer crack my paracord whips. I had no issue cracking the one from you, due to the light weight!

But of course, in the end it is a matter of personal preference. I am sure that having learned to crack using your whip, I won't like heavy whips, the same way Whipwarrior doesn't like light ones, having been accustomed to heavy ones.

Cheers,
Bear Beast

giovanniceleste · Post by **giovanniceleste** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:06 am

Dear Bear,
thanks in advance for your feedback and for your kind review.
As we have written several times i think it's not a problem of the whips in itself but of individual and personal preferences.
As you know i'm also a guitarist and in my more of twenty of experience, I've heard guitarists prefer the feeling of a Fender Stratocaster compared to a Gibson Les Paul and vice versa.
I think this little anecdote summarizes the whole story.
Thanks again for your kind testimony
Gio

pdraycott · Post by **pdraycott** » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:03 pm

Anyone know of any mid range whip makes who make a decent raiders whip? .. uk preferably Don’t want to spend more than £300.. spending too much on Indy at the mo..

Blackadder · Post by **Blackadder** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:03 am

pdraycott wrote:Anyone know of any mid range whip makes who make a decent raiders whip? .. uk preferably Don’t want to spend more than £300.. spending too much on Indy at the mo..

I opted for one of Lelec whips , and I am very satisfied with the look and feel of it , also cracks like a champ. You can talk with Emanuele to the slightest details how you want your whip , and he can make it as SA as you wish. His cowhide whip is 250 euro so its a great bang for that money.

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:09 pm

Lelec's whips look amaaazing! And he seems a very dedicated whip maker!

pdraycott · Post by **pdraycott** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:39 pm

Blackadder wrote:
pdraycott wrote:Anyone know of any mid range whip makes who make a decent raiders whip? .. uk preferably Don’t want to spend more than £300.. spending too much on Indy at the mo..
I opted for one of Lelec whips , and I am very satisfied with the look and feel of it , also cracks like a champ. You can talk with Emanuele to the slightest details how you want your whip , and he can make it as SA as you wish. His cowhide whip is 250 euro so its a great bang for that money.

Funnily enough I am talking to him now. Going to get one from him.

bearbeast · Post by **bearbeast** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:48 am

Nice! Post lots of pictures when you get it.

Blackadder · Post by **Blackadder** » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:11 am

pdraycott wrote:
Blackadder wrote:
pdraycott wrote:Anyone know of any mid range whip makes who make a decent raiders whip? .. uk preferably Don’t want to spend more than £300.. spending too much on Indy at the mo..
I opted for one of Lelec whips , and I am very satisfied with the look and feel of it , also cracks like a champ. You can talk with Emanuele to the slightest details how you want your whip , and he can make it as SA as you wish. His cowhide whip is 250 euro so its a great bang for that money.
Funnily enough I am talking to him now. Going to get one from him.

Good choice