California Bullwhip Laws?

Bad Penny · Post by **Bad Penny** » Mon May 17, 2004 3:39 am

Anyone familiar with the law in California with regard to bullwhips? I have a felony on my record from 20 years ago that still comes up due to having a WW1 trench knife in my car. (A friend of mine bought one in Maryland, but they are illegal in California under the brass knuckles law, which is what the handle is comprised of.)

Anyway, along with brass knuckles, shurikens (throwing stars), and nunchukas and similar exotic weapons are also felonies in California. I wondered if bullwhips have a similar stigma.

Also, where do people in Los Angeles practice with their bullwhips? Are they allowed in public parks?

Richie · Post by **Richie** » Mon May 17, 2004 8:54 am

I think the bullwhip is a traditional tool for the cowboy and not a serious weapon ;-) You can not compare a bullwhip (designed for cracking) with a weapon like a shurikens (designed for killing). Bullwhips was made only for this reason and nothing else. All other reasons are just moviestuff and very far from reality. If you looking for a "whip weapon" take the african sjambok - a weapon of the south african townships and of the police on the other side. I know that this type of whip is forbidden as a flexible weapon in some countrys, also in Germany. Here is a link from a collector that have some sjamboks in his collection.
http://www.worldwidewhips.com/
Scroll down the database and look under "Sjamboks".

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Mon May 17, 2004 9:30 am

I'm sure the LA Tribe will chime in on this one. But we were whipcracking (about 12 of us) at the QM Summit last year near the QM in a little park area. I saw a squad car drive by, but it didn't stop. And I know there's an LA Chapter of the Whip Enthusiasts group as well. So I'm pretty sure Cali is okay with Bullwhips....

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Mon May 17, 2004 9:30 am

a weapon like a knife (designed for killing)

Actually Richie, knives are designed for cutting, not killing, though some knives make cutting to kill much easier!
That's what is so ridiculous about these laws. So you possess a knife, so what? Unless you threaten someone with it, what business of the government is it to say you can't have it? If you're a collector, you can't have a WWI trench knife? -How about a museum??? Of course, once you brandish it as a weapon, the law is, and should be involved.
So, I have a Shun Santoku; is someone going to pass a law making it illegal for me to own, or transport, my chef's knife?
Whips are for cracking. Are there laws against that? Probably. Perhaps disturbing the peace!
This is really a question for Ken of Jersey Jones fame, though he is busy with his new family.

Richie · Post by **Richie** » Mon May 17, 2004 9:39 am

right Hemingway Jones! I have change this detail in my post.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:08 pm

Hemingway Jones wrote:That's what is so ridiculous about these laws. So you possess a knife, so what? Unless you threaten someone with it, what business of the government is it to say you can't have it? If you're a collector, you can't have a WWI trench knife? -How about a museum??? Of course, once you brandish it as a weapon, the law is, and should be involved.

Amen, my brutha from anutha mutha!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon May 17, 2004 4:50 pm

In my experience, there are not that many places in the US that ban the use of bullwhips outdoors. When an officer drops by to see me whipcracking I make sure my attitude is parked. I am polite and courteous. When the conversation switches to the whip, I politely state that the whips in general are classified as "agricultural" tools and not weapons. I carry a few business cards around that show my professional affiliation with the WWAC (Wild West Arts Club), APWA (Australian Plaiters and Whipcracking Assoc). In general, they leave me alone. But I avoid crowded parks and tend to go to less frequented areas like industrial parks over the weekend or corners of soccer fields. Kids, dogs, horses are usually bad combinations when whipcracking, so just use your common sense.

However, to be on the safeside, call the local sheriff's office and double check if there is anything in the books that prevents you from whipcracking. But again, play up being poite, friendly, throw the "agricultural" tool and not a weapon line on them and if they ask you to move along, then do so.

-Sergei

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Mon May 17, 2004 4:59 pm

Sergei makes a good point, that whips really are "agricultural tools," or like Richie said, "cowboy tools." But also, if you were to go look at that topic talking about defending against a bullwhip attack, you'd see that you can't really "attack" anyway. So I'd say that whips shouldn't be a problem anyway. Now... If I want to bring my whip to school (say, for Halloween), I don't know how much of a problem I'd have here. Any experience taking a whip to school or to a workplace, anybody? (Not to shift the topic around)

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Mon May 17, 2004 5:07 pm

I actually held a short whip cracking lesson after school.
It was for most of the teachers if they were intrested.
Ive also brought whips to school to show teachers.
they think its cool.
Kindest Regards
Adam

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Mon May 17, 2004 5:31 pm

Really? That's so awesome! Do you walk around with the whip hanging off your belt though? I've brought my whip to school, but I hid it away in my backpack, which probably wasn't a great idea...

In Christ,
Shane

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Mon May 17, 2004 6:54 pm

Last week I was at the park practicing and I had a city cop do a cruise by. I noticed him but didn't he didn't stop and I just kept going. Then he cruised by again and ended up parking along the street in view. Then a county sherriff cruiser showed up and they both drove over to the main parking lot and parked behind some trees facing my direction. I hope they didn't think they were being sneaky and concealed 'cause they did a lousy job. I just kept cracking and they sat there for a good half an hour before leaving. My guess is that the new city cop (it's a small town so you know who the new LEOs are) was curious if what I was doing was legal or not so he called in a county LEO for their opinion. Of course, they could have just been having lunch. Doesn't hurt to know they are there though.

On another note:

The day before that I had a couple kids walk over from the baseball diamond and the first thing that comes out of the smaller kid's mouth is, "Do you like torturing people?"
I laughed and told him I don't torture anyone unless I sing.
They asked the usual redundant question of, "What are you doing?"
"Cracking whips," I said. (DUH!!!)
"Why do you do that?"
I motioned to their ball gloves and asked,"Why do you play baseball?"
"Because it's fun."
"Well, there's your answer."

What's my point of all this? I don't have one.

Bad Penny · Post by **Bad Penny** » Mon May 17, 2004 7:21 pm

Thanks, all. I wasn't looking for a whip as a weapon. I was just being extra cautious due to the laws here. I tried looking for the LAWE website, but it is gone. Are there other LA enthusiasts here?

And BTW, the nunchaku was originally an agricultural implement as well!

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon May 17, 2004 8:25 pm

On the knife topic. Is it legal to carry a SAK around, or any folding knife for that matter? I always keep a Victorinox in my pocket or Mk VII and this would be good to know. I don't want to hijack the thread but I figured I might aswell bring it up since it was brought up earlier in the thread.

Regards,
Swindiana

Post by **Dalexs** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:54 pm

The_Edge wrote: On another note:

The day before that I had a couple kids walk over from the baseball diamond and the first thing that comes out of the smaller kid's mouth is, "Do you like torturing people?"
I laughed and told him I don't torture anyone unless I sing.
They asked the usual redundant question of, "What are you doing?"
"Cracking whips," I said. (DUH!!!)
"Why do you do that?"
I motioned to their ball gloves and asked,"Why do you play baseball?"
"Because it's fun."
"Well, there's your answer."

What's my point of all this? I don't have one.

I like that answer... I'll have to remember that one!
Not that I've gotten any grief yet in public. Usually just the rubberneckers who wind up thinking its kinda cool.

Dalexs

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:45 pm

Swindiana wrote:On the knife topic. Is it legal to carry a SAK around, or any folding knife for that matter? I always keep a Victorinox in my pocket or Mk VII and this would be good to know. I don't want to hijack the thread but I figured I might aswell bring it up since it was brought up earlier in the thread.

Regards,
Swindiana

Generally speaking, and I'm not a lawyer, most LEOs know what SAKs are and will not give you any grief over them. Unless you give them cause to, that is. It is with the so called "tactical" knives and just about any blade over 3 inches that will cause them concern. Of course, I'm speaking from an American view point and haven't a clue what the situation is in Sweden. The key to knife possesion is attitude. Coming off as a punk will land your butt in trouble.

I suggest you look up your local and state/provincial penal codes and find out what they say about knife posession. Also be aware that most LEOs do not know the exact laws that they are enforcing a lot of the time. They try to use their best judgement but they aren't always right. I've read many a story of LEOs confiscating knives even though they are perfectly legal. Carry a copy of the knife laws around with you and politely show them to the officer if you are unlucky enough to be detained.

I tend to carry a minimum of two knives on my person. One large knife for heavy work and self-defense. And a small 2 inch "sheeple" friendly knife that I can pull out in a resaurant or at work and not cause undue concern. Practice good judgement and you'll be fine.

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:50 pm

Thank you Edge!

I was referring to the laws in the U.S. and you did enlighten me quite a bit. Basically, be the good guy that you are, right?

"-Hey, it is not "a knife", it is also a..." and then they'll get tired of listening and move along.

Thanks.

Regards,
Swindiana

Bad Penny · Post by **Bad Penny** » Tue May 18, 2004 12:52 am

Swindiana wrote:Thank you Edge!

I was referring to the laws in the U.S. and you did enlighten me quite a bit. Basically, be the good guy that you are, right?

If only it were that easy. Be more careful if you find yourself in Orange County. This was in 1984, but I doubt the laws have changed much; I was told that despite the knife being in the glove compartment of my car, and not in the trunk, it was considered "on my person."

Trevelyan · Post by **Trevelyan** » Tue May 18, 2004 1:19 am

It's amazing how different the laws are among the different states. I lived in California for awhile, where the law's are clearly strict as Bad Penny described. But in Missouri, where I lived most of my life, anyone over 18 w/o a criminal record who is willing to pay a fee can now carry concealed hand guns, and anyone over 18 can have a gun in their car without any permits. I'm pretty sure Texas has been that way for awhile. So, if you're in Missouri and Texas, be careful who you give the finger to while driving.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Tue May 18, 2004 1:33 am

Bad Penny wrote:Are there other LA enthusiasts here?

Let's see I believe Sergei, Koreana Jones, Rundquist, Prettybigguy, and Chamorro have all gotten together in the past to crack whips and have entertained the idea of becoming a LA WE group. But that was a while back. You could always start an LA group...I know Sebastian would probably be encouraged by that.

Molorom wrote:I actually held a short whip cracking lesson after school.
It was for most of the teachers if they were intrested.
Ive also brought whips to school to show teachers.
they think its cool.
Kindest Regards
Adam

Do you live in a small town? Here where I teach, the schools would confiscate a whip pretty quickly in the junior and senior high schools.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Tue May 18, 2004 2:23 am

The_Edge wrote:
Swindiana wrote:On the knife topic. Is it legal to carry a SAK around, or any folding knife for that matter? I always keep a Victorinox in my pocket or Mk VII and this would be good to know. I don't want to hijack the thread but I figured I might aswell bring it up since it was brought up earlier in the thread.

Regards,
Swindiana
Generally speaking, and I'm not a lawyer, most LEOs know what SAKs are and will not give you any grief over them. Unless you give them cause to, that is. It is with the so called "tactical" knives and just about any blade over 3 inches that will cause them concern. Of course, I'm speaking from an American view point and haven't a clue what the situation is in Sweden. The key to knife possesion is attitude. Coming off as a punk will land your butt in trouble.

I suggest you look up your local and state/provincial penal codes and find out what they say about knife posession. Also be aware that most LEOs do not know the exact laws that they are enforcing a lot of the time. They try to use their best judgement but they aren't always right. I've read many a story of LEOs confiscating knives even though they are perfectly legal. Carry a copy of the knife laws around with you and politely show them to the officer if you are unlucky enough to be detained.

There is always the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Most LEOs try to use common sense. But, because they are human, some are lacking in this respect. Therefore, I can't tell you what all LEOs are going to do in all situations. Also, laws differ from state to state and country to country.

I am not aware of any state in which a pocket knife is illegal, there could be some, but I am not aware of them. A locking blade knife is a different story. In most if not all states, a knife doesn't have to be "illegal" for a LEO to confiscate it. If you are acting like an idiot, it could be construed that you would use the knife as a weapon and therefore it can be confiscated and held for safekeeping.

Bad Penny · Post by **Bad Penny** » Tue May 18, 2004 3:49 am

Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Let's see I believe Sergei, Koreana Jones, Rundquist, Prettybigguy, and Chamorro have all gotten together in the past to crack whips and have entertained the idea of becoming a LA WE group. But that was a while back. You could always start an LA group...I know Sebastian would probably be encouraged by that.

I would but...I don't own a whip yet!

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed May 19, 2004 12:07 pm

As for comments, one guy told me I should be dressed in Black when cracking my whip as that's what Lash Larue did.....

That comment got me totally off guard as he knew who Lash was. But only in one park did the park "rangers" ask me to stop as kids were nearby..... but firecrackers and flying freebies were okay thou.... go figure...

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed May 19, 2004 1:09 pm

Swindiana wrote:Thank you Edge!

I was referring to the laws in the U.S. and you did enlighten me quite a bit. Basically, be the good guy that you are, right?

"-Hey, it is not "a knife", it is also a..." and then they'll get tired of listening and move along.

Thanks.

Regards,
Swindiana

Well, sort of. The law is the law afterall and you and I are expected to obey it. Pleading ignorance of the law is not a viable defense no matter how good of a guy you are.

The problem is, is that there are many different laws regarding knives and they are all different depending on where you happen to be at the moment. Every state, county and city have their own codes as to what defines a "dangerous weapon" and where you can carry it. It's almost impossible to carry what you like and not be in violation of some law somewhere. Exercising good judgement is your best plan.

And don't bother using the, "my knife is a tool and not a weapon," defense with a police officer. It's a waste of time. Your best bet is to keep your mouth shut because, "anything you say can and will be used against you.." With in the judicial system all knives are weapons no matter what you use it for. In the end, it will be your attitude and actions that determine what happens if caught with an illegal knife. It also depends on the officer. Some will become alarmed and immediately cite you and confiscate the knife. Others will admire it and ask where they can get one.

Never volunteer information to an LEO either. If you're pulled over and you have a hunting knife (for example) under your seat you are not required to give that information to the officer. However, If you have it on your person and are asked to step out of the vehicle then it is best if you calmly inform the officer that you are carrying and let him/her remove the knife from you. Don't reach for it to remove it yourself. You may get yourself shot.

Again, I am not a lawyer or LEO. My advice is drawn from my own experience and research. Don't take what I say as legal advice. You carry at your own risk.

Bad Penny · Post by **Bad Penny** » Wed May 19, 2004 7:01 pm

Hey guys, on a related subject:

What do you do if kids, or even adults come by and ask to crack your whip? Are you liable if they hurt themselves?

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Wed May 19, 2004 10:46 pm

Bad Penny wrote:Hey guys, on a related subject:

What do you do if kids, or even adults come by and ask to crack your whip? Are you liable if they hurt themselves?

That's a great question. When I've been at Whip Enthusiast practices, usually our leader Sebastian will usually ask kids if they have their parents around to get permission. Usually they don't and will just watch. From my experience this past weekend of trying to teach 2 children (my two sisters ages 10 and 13), my 10 year old half sister was rather difficult to teach mainly due to her immaturity and not believing me on how dangerous a bullwhip can be. If I hadn't had my dad's permission to teach her I doubt I would have even put a bullwhip in her hand.

If adults come and want to crack, you may need to use your discretion. Obviously warn them of the dangers and don't let them crack without eye protection of some sort.

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Wed May 19, 2004 11:28 pm

Bad Penny wrote:Hey guys, on a related subject:

What do you do if kids, or even adults come by and ask to crack your whip? Are you liable if they hurt themselves?

I've taught a half dozen or more neighborhood grade school kids how to crack a whip. However, I will not let them attempt anything unless they are wearing a leather jacket and a hat. My son has his U.S. Wings' Lil' Indy jacket and a leather cowboy hat that he shares with them. So, should the kid get hurt by the whip, I've at least made a "reasonable effort" to afford protection to the child prior to teaching him.

So far no one has gotten hurt and there are some "stories" being told at the grade school that you, too, can learn to crack a whip like Indy.

I.J.

English Whip Maker · Post by **English Whip Maker** » Mon May 24, 2004 6:10 am

Bad Penny wrote:Anyone familiar with the law in California with regard to bullwhips?

Hi folks.

Not been around for a while, but just looked in.

Don't know the answer to this one, but I do understand that at one time snake whips were illegal in some parts of the states. Reason being, people were carrying them with the excuse that they used them in work, and then braining each other in fights with the weighted end. I don't think this is just folklore, either - as I'm writing this, I should actually be making a whip for a theatre production based on a real life incident. The whip is wanted for a scene in which it is used as a cosh.

On teaching kids - we only allow them to have a go if the parents are present. Don't know how it works in the states, but in the UK there's a general principle in working with young people, which is about parental consent. You'd be mad to risk having a kid go home with a welt from a bad throw unless you knew for certain that their parents had been informed of both the activity, and it's risks. If you're having an informal practice down the park, you won't be able to get written permission in advance, so the golden rule is only if the parent is there with the kids.

Within that guideline, we've had some nice successes. One Dad in particular, was pleased as punch when his son learnt to crack a whip. Reason being, he had a disability and the doctors had pretty much written him off in terms of physical ability. Now he'd achieved something physical that his mates couldn't do, and both Dad and son were over the moon. Getting him to let other people have a go was our biggest challenge of the day!

Dave

Andiana · Post by **Andiana** » Wed May 26, 2004 1:59 am

I live in Sounthern CA. Since I'm 13, seeing a kid using a bullwhip skillfully is a scary sight for anyone lookin' at me. I get different reactions though. SOme clap as they are walking by, some walk a little faster to get out of the area.....like I'm gonna come up to them and maul them with the whip....anyways.....and I practice by myself as well.

No, I don't think there is a law against the practice of whips in the public. Sure, most people don't see many people using whips in public....including kids...but hey, we are Indy fans!!!!

I'm going to bed now......

^^^^^
(I have been using a bullwhip for a long time, but I have been stuck with a WDW swhip for a while......)

California Bullwhip Laws?

California Bullwhip Laws?

Re: California Bullwhip Laws?