New Herbert Johnson!

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:48 am

Having visited HJ in 1986 and 2000, meeting Swales both times, I got the clear impression they were in the clothing/ hat business and considered themselves to be dead on with the I. Jones hat because they were - it was the Last Crusade hat, right? The idea that one Jones hat was more Jones than Jones seemed a little silly to them I think. I was able to talk to Swales about that first hat (Raiders) and he knew of the differences. Nice guy both in person and on the phone but I just don't think they ever looked for the Raiders block.

He DID talk about being disappointed in the new felts they were using though. But the decision was higher up than him.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:41 am

I never visited the shop, but I talked with Swales on the phone and he was nice to me, as were the other salesmen, a Mr. Gitard and another gentleman whose name I can't remember. It was the woman receptionist answering the phone who had a bad attitude, in my experience; Her voice was the aural equivalent of the look I imagine I'd get if I had ticks.

Swales also sent me a letter briefly detailing the history of his involvement with the Indy hat. This was in response to a hatter in the U.S. who at the time claimed that HE had made the hats for Raiders. Swales obviously took pride in his work and the hats I received from him were all well made, although not shaped exactly as in the films (the backs of the crowns always came with a teardrop or diamond crease). My impression was that the hats were given their final shapes at the studio.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:35 am

I’m glad you both had good experiences with Swales. I may have exaggerated the unpleasantness of dealing with the old regime at HJ, although I definitely recall some stories from members who felt condescended to. One story that stands out in my mind was of a member who pretended to be a member of the upper class (affected an upper class accent, wore his best clothes, pretended not to know it was the Raiders hat until they brought it up) just to get better treatment.

I think my overall point still stands: Swales didn’t produce what we’re seeing at HJ not because he was an idiot, but because he didn’t see himself as an “Indy hatter” (and also, as you say, DarthJones, because things like felt quality were being determined by the higher ups).

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:01 am

Mulceber wrote:I’m glad you both had good experiences with Swales. I may have exaggerated the unpleasantness of dealing with the old regime at HJ, although I definitely recall some stories from members who felt condescended to. One story that stands out in my mind was of a member who pretended to be a member of the upper class (affected an upper class accent, wore his best clothes, pretended not to know it was the Raiders hat until they brought it up) just to get better treatment.

I think my overall point still stands: Swales didn’t produce what we’re seeing at HJ not because he was an idiot, but because he didn’t see himself as an “Indy hatter” (and also, as you say, Eazybox, because things like felt quality were being determined by the higher ups).

Mulceber, that last observation was made by darthjones2, but I'll be happy to take credit for it, anyway.

I know experiences varied with HJ; Lee Keppler used to say, "If you want the hats, you have to take what goes with them."

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:06 am

Duly edited. Sorry ‘bout the mix-up! It’s late and I could probably use some caffeine.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:11 am

Mulceber wrote:Duly edited. Sorry ‘bout the mix-up! It’s late and I could probably use some caffeine.

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:50 am

I don't have a Herbert Johnson, but reading through this thread makes me even more excited to get one. I'm glad I waited though, it looks like there was some cakes that needed to be ironed out. So a quick question: what is difference between the old block and the new block? I read through this thread but I don't seem to be able to find an answer- is the new block based on the old block? Or is the new block the block that was used before the old block was discovered? I get that the new block has a shorter crown, which would be perfect for my oversized head, but I was just wondering how far deviated from the original design.

And reading through this thread, while I don't have a dog in the fight, I think that it's interesting how divisive vendors can cause the Indygear community to be. Not that vendors themselves are directly responsible for the division, but I think that we do tend to be fiercely loyal to our favorite vendors.

With that said, I think we may have come down a bit hard on micsteam. Perhaps stating his complaints in this thread meant to celebrate a new hat wasn't the best place for him to air his grievances, but at the same time the personal attacks didn't help matters much from either side, just causing everyone to get overly defensive and unwilling to talk. I mean there is alot of "talking at," but very little "talking to" going on.

And for what it's worth, I completely will have to disagree that his priorities are screwed up. That's a very judgemental and unfair assumption to make, and regardless of how you may feel about someone's arguments, it is important to remember that he is a human being, and we should all be capable of compassion.

While I cannot imagine what he's going through, I do completely empathize with him. It is unrealistic to expect someone to completely shut out the rest of the world during a time of crisis and focus solely on that crisis for every waking second, especially if you're talking about something occurring over a period of weeks. The man has had a personal tragedy, and if anything, this is his escape to take his mind off of things. I feel for him, years ago I was going through a rough patch in my own life where I would come here to discuss something so niche with other folks that shared my interests, and it helped me forget about my problems for a while, because no matter how bad it got here, it didn't directly impact my life the way other issues did.

And to be fair, I am not familiar look whatever issues caused Herbert Johnson to remove their posts, but since it is stated here that people plural caused them to leave, but attacking micsteam for it will achieve nothing at this point. Basically, all I'm saying is that in this crazy world we live in, we all could use some love and compassion right now... I mean, we're all just crazy nut jobs that dress up like our favorite archaeologist!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:00 am

And reading through this thread, while I don't have a dog in the fight, I think that it's interesting how divisive vendors can cause the Indygear community to be. Not that vendors themselves are directly responsible for the division, but I think that we do tend to be fiercely loyal to our favorite vendors.

That may or may not necessarily be the case here.

This is the VERY reason why a few vendors have been banned from this site, in direct violation of posted and agreed to rules when members signed up at this site.

Taken directly from the rules:

Note to vendors....it is not allowed (nor professional) for vendors to 'attack' other vendors in any section of the site. Please keep your discussions/posts to your own product and in a thread related TO your product so your customers can do the comparisons, pro and con.

Even after multiple warnings, some vendors refused to keep to the high road and not attack other vendors, and were therefore banned from the site, also as per posted rules.

It is also specifically posted in THIS thread about channeling banned members into discussions in continuing to attack vendors/members at this site through individuals who are still members here, rule seen here:

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, it seems there's been a plethora of issues going on in this particular group of posts that has folks upset.

We now know what banned vendor is stirring THAT pot.

As Dalexs posted above, as long as things are kept polite and above board, we're standing back and letting discussion flow....but this is getting into the dark waters of ignoring the rules.

Regards! Michaelson

Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:28 pm

Mulceber wrote:Micstream, you're clearly going through a lot right now - why don't we table this discussion until the dust has settled. My condolences for your loss, and I hope the rest of your family is ok and has weathered the storm well.

I recently received a sable rabbit felt Indy hat directly from on the HJ website. I am in NY and it arrived in 9 days. Great shape and fit. Front crown is 5 1/2 inches and brim close to 3 inch s. It's a great hat. I also have a Steve Delk CS fedora in Beaver and it's a great hat. I also have an Akubra Federation and it is great. I also have a Baron Hats Cliffhanger hat in Beaver. They are all different and I like that diversity but anyone I wear is an " Indy" hat and I get compliments on all of them. I just ordered a grey Clipper Indy hat directly from HJ. There is a place for each and luckily I enjoy them all.
Glad you're enjoying it (not to mention the other three) and congrats on your second post. Got any pics?

Yes I will try to upload from my IPhone.

micsteam · Post by **micsteam** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:57 pm

I have been a member of this forum for some time, I have made connections/friends here that might even last a lifetime and I am very grateful for that. I apologize if I've crossed any lines or disobeyed any rules, I tip my hat to the mods.. thank you. I very much appreciate the respect, kind thoughts, and well wishes, ... very much !! So thank you, even to those my stance on the subject disagreed with.
I would like to clarify my position here without emotion or " supposed" favoritism to certain hat makers. Here is the bottom line of my post on this thread... I challenge the statements that Jack@HJ has made about his hat.. period. My support of my statements are:
1.) The felt is the same felt Herbert Johnson is currently using for beaver and rabbit
2.) The sweatband is not being seated correctly, this may be a manufacturing issue and if that's the case it is not " handmade" but it is a relevant issue.. it is basic hat making.. factory or handmade.
3.) The Raiders hat block has not been proven to actually be " THE " hat block, we've been shown an old cracked hat block but anybody can purchase that or acquire it. Why did Jack@HJ send a hat to David Garrison to see if it met Raiders spec and standards if you have " THE" Raiders hat block ?? Why does it sink into a Steve Delk Raiders hat block without any gaps or hesitation. Yes the Raiders hat, made by current " vendors", is an interpretation by the hat maker and is scrutinized by the individual/masses what have you, no matter whom the individual hat maker is. Until you can definitively speak/contact the specific original maker of the Raiders fedora in 1980 than the statement of possessing/owning/finding " THE" Raiders hat block when the capable hat makers at HJ( for decades) and the limitless funds of Hollywood could not find it (what are the chances someone opened a closet and found it ?? Really ??), the hat block is still unverified. There is/has been no verifiable proof.
4.) He is not mentioned nor are there links on the Herbert Johnson Website to Jack@HJ it's still the standard Poet model they've always had.

These are observances (but are factual): there are individuals here and on other forums ( the same persons) that are promoting this hat ( to the point of being shameless), in some instances without even having a hat in hand !! This is why I question some people that are actively backing up unverifiable facts/quality production about this hat maker (I have personally seen poorly made examples made by this hat maker).. why ?? $450-$650 for a hat, not to mention the shipping costs (if you don't live in the UK/Europe), is a lot of money to ask for this fedora with these issues.
Now to those whom are happy with their hat made by Jack@HJ (or whomever is making his hats), I am happy for you !! Truly !! So my statements were and are not meant to disrespect you or your observations, again the hats I have seen may not have been what you have received.

I feel this person, or company, took some short cuts, is not giving the customer the product he/they is/are describing, and disrespects current hat makers that put the " honest" time in to perfect their craft.... no " one " is stirring the pot. I'm leaving this alone, I am not going to get into arguments with anybody about this and I respect your positions ( those with the right intentions)but this needed to be said. Thank you

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:23 pm

I'm glad you're leaving this alone, as you're operating under a few completely incorrect 'factual' points.

One of which is Jack did NOT send Dave Garrison one to 'check the specs'. I did.

I sent him mine that I traded an AB to get.

DAVE contacted Jack, not the other way round, and had a lot of discussion, exchanging pleasantries between hat makers. I asked Dave if he'd like to see one of the HJ reboots. Of course, he jumped at the chance, and once he had it in hand he RAVED at the quality of the workmanship and felt. No mention of a 'floating sweatband' etc., but high scores on the craftsmanship.... and this was essentially by one of HJ's competitors!

SO, I'm not sure where you got THAT information, but it's incorrect.

Your first point is a bit puzzling. Of course it's the same felt that HJ is using on their other dress felts. It's Portuguese felt. The original Raiders felter went out of business LONG ago, and everyone knew that. Jack told us from the 'get-go' what his felt source was. It was a re-boot. Not sure what that point even means.

Of course Jack isn't listed at HJ. He was in the shop, located miles away from the store front, not the purchasing or sales department.

We were fortunate to come in the back door to reach him through his Jack@HJ email address, but that was unlisted, and I'm sure he finally caught grief from the front office when that was discovered it was going on.

The actual email address to reach the shop is hatter@herbert-johnson.co.uk. Notice, no name. Their craftsman are not listed, and there's a reason for that. They want folks coming in the FRONT door to ask questions, not bother their craftsmen at work, so they list the email above, or advise you to message them through their FB page.

With at least 3 of the 4 points shown to be in error, you may want to think again about what you have 'heard', and what's actual 'fact'.

As to the 4th point, well, all I can offer is that you either believe or you don't. It has been said for years that HJ didn't HAVE the block anymore, but they never said they didn't KNOW where it was. It just wasn't needed on any of the remaining films they made, and it wasn't a style they sold in the shop anymore. This much I was personally told by Richard Swales back in the early 90's. The style of the hat changed in Temple of Doom, so that Raiders block wasn't required, and quite frankly, HJ could have cared less about us fans wanting duplicates of their hats from a film. Why bother tracking down hat blocks for a sale they didn't really want to make, or they could just sell us the off the shelf Poet they already had in stock?

That said, though, we've seen absolute proof and provenance shown by many people over the years over this or that, and even when that was done, there were still individuals who wouldn't believe, no matter HOW strong that proof was. It's understandable, and totally human.

Items that immediately come to mind are the discovered incomplete Raiders jacket that was found at Wested when they moved to the barn, Noel Howard's Temple of Doom jacket, the Raiders hat that surfaced for auction years ago, the Smith and Wesson revolver that also surfaced just before Crystal Skull was filmed, etc.

To date, those items still have folks who argue for OR against their provenance.

So, like I said, you either believe, or you don't, This whole hobby is subjective to ones personal beliefs.

It's also understood, you don't like the hat....but it's a good idea to 'fact check' your points before proceeding to use them to support your reasons as to 'why'.

A lot of assumptions have been made here to 'prove points', and have repeated things written by other individuals who ALSO don't like the HJ. They, too, have posted the same dislike and 'proof' on those other venues you mention that DO have their own agenda.

Unfortunately, drinking THEIR Kool aide is worse than anything you'll ever find around here.

Now, I, too, will step back into the shadows.

Regards! Michaelson

Ride Guy · Post by **Ride Guy** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:20 pm

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:22 pm

Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:29 pm

senorjacob wrote:Hey guys. I picked up my new HJ today in London. What do you think?

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Looks great'

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Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:18 pm

Looks good on you.

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:43 am

My question still stands- anyone know the difference between the original block and the new block? Just want to know which one to order...

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:17 am

One is a little lower than the other as I recall, but the folks to ask are here:

hatter@herbert-johnson.co.uk

Regards! M

Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:43 am

When I received my HJ Poet last week in Rabbit, they included instructions not to wear in heavy rain. I have many fedoras as well as western hats some are Beaver, most are not. I have worn fedoras Madrid of rabbit felt in the rain with no problem. Any thoughts gang?
Thanks
Jack

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Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:56 am

More than likely just to cover their end in case you wear the hat and don’t dry properly, it can taper. They can say they told you so.

But rabbit felt can taper faster than beaver. If it does get wet just let it dry slowly. Maybe pop out the center dent and put it on a towel over the arm of a Sofa or big lazy boy chair.

Biggest thing is not letting it soak down to the core. Even beaver can shrink and taper in those conditions. If you take the hat off and it’s wet underneath and not from handling then you may have let the core get soaked.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:21 am

It also depends on the quality of the felt.

As Jeremiah says, I also think they're just covering their bases by telling you that, but most good rabbit felt fedoras can withstand a light rain, but very few do well if soaked to the core...as has already been mentioned.

I've had some that I've worn in frog strangling rain and snow storms with little effect, and I've had a few that I had in one good rain and taper to the point of looking like a dunce cap!

Rule of thumb I've always used is on any rabbit felt, regardless of maker, is a fair weather hat with low percentage chance of rain.

I save the heavy weather for my beaver felt hats.

ALL that said, though, it keep in mind a hat is nothing more than a tool, no matter what material it's made of. It's simply made to keep the sun and rain off your noggin.....and if you look good doing it, well, it's a win-win.

Don't baby your hats, even your HJ.....but practice common sense and know there are pros and cons with gear made from certain materials.

Regards! M

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:48 pm

I agree with everything that Michaelson and Jeremiah said. My HJ's been through some light rain a couple times, and it always shrugged it off like it was nothing. I wouldn't want to put it (or any other rabbit hat) through an utter downpour though. That's when I switch to beaver.

I would also add that there are various water-proofing treatments that you can buy just in case you get caught in the rain. Scotchgard is one. I know John Penman used to stock a really good one as well, but I'm not sure if he still sells them.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:07 pm

One Steve Delk used to promote was Scout's, but I don't know if they're still marketing the stuff now or not. That's been a while.

Regards! Michaelson

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:12 pm

Is this the stuff?

http://www.sheplers.com/scout-felt-hat- ... color=7055

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:17 pm

The language on the website about not wearing your hat in the rain is the same text that has always been there.

The 'stock' Poets that have been available for years were factory made hats made with lower quality felt that could lead to tapering if exposed to rain/weather. My understanding is the new bespoke hats are using a higher quality felt that should hold up better.

Unless I've gotten confused with all the back and forth....

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:57 pm

Mulceber wrote:Is this the stuff?

http://www.sheplers.com/scout-felt-hat- ... color=7055

That's it! Thanks!

You're right, Jeff. The current felt is the top end Portuguese felt, so that IS the old write up for the old stock Poets.

Still, rabbit ain't beaver.....

Regard! M

Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:00 pm

Thanks so much guys!

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Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:28 pm

The scout water repellent is available. I think I will order one although I've never used such on any of my felt hats before. I assume there is no danger of staining or stiffening the hat by using this?

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Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:30 pm

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Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:31 pm

This is the Poet right out of the box.

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Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:32 pm

Actually the 2nd photo may be the Adventurebilt by Steve.

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Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:34 pm

This is the Poet

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Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:35 pm

Yeah, I think you're right about the second one - the bash is different, and it looks like Steve's darker brown felt.

The HJ looks great though!

Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:41 pm

the new Poet

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Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:43 pm

Trying to get a decent angle

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Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:53 pm

I'm thinking maybe I will turn the rear brim downward?

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Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:33 pm

Please adjust your picture size per:

Not to exceed 640x480 pixels

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:34 pm

Indiana Jeff wrote:Please adjust your picture size per:

Not to exceed 640x480 pixels

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Ok, thanks

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Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:33 pm

Jackfyddle wrote:The scout water repellent is available. I think I will order one although I've never used such on any of my felt hats before. I assume there is no danger of staining or stiffening the hat by using this?

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No, no danger. It's specifically made to be used on fur felt.

Regards! Michaelson

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:19 am

No danger for felt but be careful with grosgrain. Turned mine purple with the FL sun.

Jack@hatter · Post by **Jack@hatter** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:55 am

Hi folks.

This is Jack. Let's get a few things out the way.

I am no longer at herbert Johnson. I will put up a post explaining when and why I left. Plus some of the historical information I shared will be posted up again in due course to be archived.

I am currently moving house at the moment. So I have lot going on for the next few weeks. After that I will open a thread title "ask Jack" there you can ask me pretty much anything you want, I will try my very best to answer the best of my ability.

In closing, it was a real pleasure working with such dedicated and passionate individuals. And I'm glad I could contribute as much as I could.

Talk soon.

Jack.

Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:35 pm

Just rec'd my HJ Clipper Poet Fedora today and it is a marvelous hat! The crown is slightly lower than the Sable Poet I received 2 weeks ago. Crown height on this Clipper is just under 5 inches. The Sable is 5 and 1/2 inches.

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Post by **Dalexs** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:39 pm

Nice! Love the color....

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:14 pm

Rabbit?

micsteam · Post by **micsteam** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:27 pm

Yes, Good Luck.

Jackfyddle · Post by **Jackfyddle** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:52 pm

Yes rabbit felt. Very smooth and very close feel in comparison to my Beaver felt hats

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IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:39 pm

So is the HJ Reboot out the window now that Jack is no longer with them? Was looking to get one.

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Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:53 pm

Unclear: Jack says his assistant is still working there and is still set up to make hats. How long this will remain the case is unknown. Meanwhile, Jack himself still has the hat blocks and is in the process of setting up his own hat shop, but it won’t have the HJ name, if that matters to you.

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:03 pm

####. I was excited about getting an SA Raiders with the HJ name.

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Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:06 pm

I think you still can: even if HJ decides to switch back to factory-made hats, it’s going to take them a little while to get that up and running. If you order quickly, your hat will probably be made by Jack’s assistant. At any rate, it couldn’t hurt to ask.

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:07 pm

Will do.

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