New Herbert Johnson!

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 pm

Open crown and new, doesn't the Steve Delk Raiders have a SLIGHT inward taper front to back (not sides)? The HJ is perfectly straight up all around.

That would mean different blocks.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:04 pm

This claim that the HJ block was stolen from Steve has no basis in fact. It's just Indy Gear politics-- people trying to run down Jack's reputation in order to "help" other hatters they would prefer to be more successful. We've waited decades for the recovery of the original Raiders block, and when it finally happens, THIS is how we thank the man who recovered it?

Post by **Dalexs** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:24 pm

Guys, lets be careful about throwing accusations around, proven or otherwise.
Many of you know, over the years, we've seen claims made here that have been both, proven beyond doubt and totally debunked.

Welcome to the world of fandom.

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:08 pm

Dalexs wrote:Guys, lets be careful about throwing accusations around, proven or otherwise.
Many of you know, over the years, we've seen claims made here that have been both, proven beyond doubt and totally debunked.

Welcome to the world of fandom.

Totally agreed. I am so curious to see the video mentioned above but I'm just wondering if anyone else has seen the difference in the hats with regard to taper/'reverse' taper. The new AB Legacy has no taper when new and the HJ has reverse taper when new. This is prior to any distortion, shrinking, or settling in. I'm not talking about blocks or origins of blocks - I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this, etc.

Having seen open crowns of both they look different to me but others out here are more experienced.

micsteam · Post by **micsteam** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:10 am

Sorry guys, I'd have paid more attention to this thread today but I live in south Florida and we have a #### of a hurricane coming at cat 5 so I've been swinging a hammer/hammer drill on two houses today (exhausted), I posted on my lunch break. I'll make sure I give you a link to that video, there's no politics.. the ones I have seen are poorly made.. period. The floating sweat bands seem to float out of the hat .. literally. You can PM me if you want to see the pics but I'd really like some help, without paying an image site to load pics on here to show them here, please. It seems questionable that for years this forum said Herbert Johnson hats were/are not what they were as the Raiders felt was not available and so on... what I don't understand is the very quick/unassuming/open arms of accepting the new HJ Indy Fedora here without scrutiny.. I don't understand. Also, has anyone ever heard the term " sock puppet " ?? What does that mean ?? Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:29 am

micsteam wrote: the ones I have seen are poorly made.. period.

Where have I heard something like that before? Oh yeah:
"That was the largest audience to witness an inauguration, PERIOD."-- Sean Spicer

A "sock puppet" is defined as an online identity used for purposes of deception. You obviously already knew that but wanted to create dramatic effect by having others "help" you by looking it up and posting the "socking" definition.

So what you are implying is that Jack is a fraud and a crook as well as a shoddy hat maker, but you felt the need to be coy about it and have others do it for you indirectly? That's being careful about throwing accusations around, indeed!

Videos and/or photos can be faked in a number of different ways to show whatever those who make them want to show.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:49 am

micsteam wrote: what I don't understand is the very quick/unassuming/open arms of accepting the new HJ Indy Fedora here without scrutiny.. I don't understand.

Let me help you understand. Your statement is untrue. Jack's threads were HIGHLY scrutinized and questioned, but with civility and not wild attempts at character assassination. Those who were unconvinced by the claims he made were free to continue asking questions and evaluating Jack's answers, which he gave freely. Personally, I find the accusations and insinuations unnecessary and disturbing. It was not called HERBERT JOHNSON REBOOT for nothing; as with every newly launched business endeavor, it was bound to stumble a little before gaining its secure footing, assisted by positive feedback and constructive criticism from its first few customers. In fact, isn't that exactly what Jack asked of us?

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:51 pm

Jack's threads were HIGHLY scrutinized and questioned, but with civility and not wild attempts at character assassination. Those who were unconvinced by the claims he made were free to continue asking questions and evaluating Jack's answers, which he gave freely

Eazybox is perhaps stating this point less forcefully than he could: there was an 11 page thread devoted to letting members ask questions and determine whether or not we believed his story.

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:05 pm

Not going to address conflict here - just want to put my 2 cents in and it would be great to get feedback on content instead of conflict.

Given my own hat history it is my current conclusion that the HJ IS the Raiders block.

Adventurebilts (both Marc and Steve) and Penman are the finest made hats I have ever owned. And in their own ways they reproduce, out of the box, the shape and behavior of the hats we see on the movie screen. Any use or shrinkage can distort as is always the case.

However, the new HJ settles IN to the hat we see on screen but is too tall and wonky out of the box. This is the main difference in my experience.

The Steve Delk Raiders is amazing but the one I saw was not a stove pipe out of the gate. However, it was not new. Does anyone know if it starts as a stovepipe?

The HJ is straight up on all sides.

Lastly, the beaver hat body I have from HJ is great but the finishing construction is a little rough with regard to the sweatband. It should sit further inside the hat but a skilled hatter can fix this. Maybe they were a little rushed out of the gate. Unfortunate but fixable.

BUT - who here can put perhaps an open crown AB Legacy Raiders next to an open crown HJ? Would love to see that. And it is not out of the realm of possibility that Steve was able to fully reproduce the Raiders block if they are the same. He is so skilled it would not surprise me given the simple shape that the HJ turned out to be - a stove pipe with a flatter dome on top. Fedoraiders has photos of his blocks on the shelf that have the same open crown top to them as the new HJ too btw - and they look to be pure stovepipes otherwise as well.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:43 pm

Not going to address conflict here - just want to put my 2 cents in and it would be great to get feedback on content instead of conflict.

I agree. There's been a lot of vitriol the last few posts, and I know I've been a part of it. We all get passionate about our hats, me included, but I'd like for this thread not to get closed down.

However, the new HJ settles IN to the hat we see on screen but is too tall and wonky out of the box. This is the main difference in my experience.

That's an interesting observation. Now that you mention it, I have noticed that the more I wear it, the more appropriate my HJ looks in the role. When I first pulled it out of the box, I thought it was too tall. It still probably is a little. But every day I wear it, I find the height looks better and the angle shots look better and better. Thought it was just me getting used to how it looks, but you might be on to something.

And it is not out of the realm of possibility that Steve was able to fully reproduce the Raiders block if they are the same. He is so skilled it would not surprise me given the simple shape that the HJ turned out to be - a stove pipe with a flatter dome on top.

Agreed - the man spent enough time staring at the Raiders hat and tinkering with the block. I would be surprised if it was identical, but I would also be surprised if it wasn't very nearly so.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:23 pm

Mulceber wrote:

However, the new HJ settles IN to the hat we see on screen but is too tall and wonky out of the box. This is the main difference in my experience.
That's an interesting observation. Now that you mention it, I have noticed that the more I wear it, the more appropriate my HJ looks in the role. When I first pulled it out of the box, I thought it was too tall. It still probably is a little. But every day I wear it, I find the height looks better and the angle shots look better and better. Thought it was just me getting used to how it looks, but you might be on to something.

I had exactly the same reaction when I first took the new HJ out of the box: "tall and wonky." I remember actually thinking, "Oh, no." But the more I tweaked the shape and wore it (and I haven't even worn it that much), the more the felt of the crown seemed to stretch, broaden and morph into a more screen accurate look. I assumed it was just a gradual adjustment of my perceptions also, but now there are 2 other confirmations of my experience. When you recall Deborah Nadoolman saying that her requirement was a hat with a crown that was "too tall," this theory does make excellent sense. The new HJ does require careful shaping to achieve the "right" look, but the block shape may lend itself to that task by naturally settling into a shape that is more like what we see on screen.

My hats were all pre-shaped, so I can't address the question of comparing block shapes, but I certainly see significant differences in my shaped hats and could never mistake the Magnoli/HJ/AB for the new HJ, which is by far the more screen accurate when viewed from all angles, in my opinion. Of course, Steve probably updated his block since I got the Magnoli about ten years ago.

For the record, I do not like the drama either, but felt it was necessary to speak out against the wild accusations (Jack is no longer here to defend himself). Maybe the mods could keep this interesting thread open by filtering out any future personal snipes and keeping the discussion focused on the hat itself?

If the "sock puppet" guy is in South Florida, I hope he and his family stay safe and well and heed any evacuation notices.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:55 pm

When you recall Deborah Nadoolman saying that her requirement was a hat with a crown that was "too tall," this theory does make excellent sense.

That's a really good point - it would also explain why the hat in the scenes shot in Hawaii looks a lot taller than the Cairo hat - it was brand new, and hadn't been subject to much, if any, wear and tear.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:03 am

Mulceber wrote:

it would also explain why the hat in the scenes shot in Hawaii looks a lot taller than the Cairo hat - it was brand new, and hadn't been subject to much, if any, wear and tear.

Yes, that makes perfect sense and is what Jack thought as well.

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:35 am

Ha. Yeah that's probably it. Good thing easybox has his thoughts alighned so well with Jacks.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:46 am

Jeremiah wrote:Ha. Yeah that's probably it. Good thing easybox has his thoughts alighned so well with Jacks.

Yes, it's all a conspiracy and anyone who has anything good to say about Jack is in on it with him. And here's more positive proof for you: my name is Jack, too!

P**s off.

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:49 am

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:28 am

And check this out - if you look at the "screen used" hat you will note that it is not an even "bread loaf" crease down the middle. It is toward the rear but toward the front it looks as if the whole front of the hat was pushed down. Look at the top/ rear of it.

That is what I did with my HJ and Voila -

If I could drag and drop photos here I'd be on it.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:43 am

darthjones2 wrote:And check this out - if you look at the "screen used" hat you will note that it is not an even "bread loaf" crease down the middle. It is toward the rear but toward the front it looks as if the whole front of the hat was pushed down. Look at the top/ rear of it.

That is what I did with my HJ and Voila -

If I could drag and drop photos here I'd be on it.

Yes, I wish it were as easy to share photos here as it is on Facebook.

What clinched the new HJ for me as being the original Raiders block is the side view. The Raiders hat has a distinctive curve at the top from front to back, which Steve once admitted was a problem with his block. Also, the way the crease bulges outward slightly in the front, and the way the rear slants slightly inward (on my hat, at any rate). Finally, in shaping my hat, I got a slight reverse taper on one side, without trying or intending to do so.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:06 am

If I could drag and drop photos here I'd be on it.

Try Imgur. It's free, and it's the easiest photo hosting site I've ever worked with. I'd really like to see some photos illustrating your point.

Post by **Mike** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:27 am

eazybox wrote:Maybe the mods could keep this interesting thread open by filtering out any future personal snipes and keeping the discussion focused on the hat itself?

It is being closely watched and discussed, but (so far) you guys have been pretty good at policing it yourselves...which we appreciate.

...and eventually Jack should be returning. He wasn't banned or anything of that sort. It was of his own volition that posts were removed for the time being.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:44 pm

Mike wrote: ...and eventually Jack should be returning.

Wonderful news. Thanks!

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:35 am

Mike wrote:
eazybox wrote:Maybe the mods could keep this interesting thread open by filtering out any future personal snipes and keeping the discussion focused on the hat itself?
It is being closely watched and discussed, but (so far) you guys have been pretty good at policing it yourselves...which we appreciate.

...and eventually Jack should be returning. He wasn't banned or anything of that sort. It was of his own volition that posts were removed for the time being.

Wow - I've been telling people for years that I'm being watched.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:03 pm

micsteam · Post by **micsteam** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:33 pm

Hey guys, here is the link on youtube: https://youtu.be/Ec6heul3O5E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Yes it was sent to my IPhone and then I posted it up on my Youtube account, I do not have access to a Steve Delk Raiders block but this gentleman does. I am still trying to get the pics up here, I can supply them on request if you PM me, but you can clearly see the sweatband sticks out of the hat. The gentleman making the hat does not know how to sink a sweatband correctly. Also, from what I can see the stitching is made by a sewing machine so do not advertise " handmade". Eazybox, you take such immediate offense with my valid observations ... why ?? Also, Eazybox thank you so much with resolving the defintition of " sockpuppet" I hope it does not apply to you. I live in South Florida so I am dealing with Irma (cat 3 now but fluctuates between cat 4 and cat 5) and my brother in law died Thursday night, I have quite a lot going on but I appreciate the well wishes.. thank you. I am finally in my " bunker" so to say and I can jump in here. Hope this helps

micsteam · Post by **micsteam** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:38 pm

Yes, and when you read these posts it's almost like Jack @HJ is here.... spiritually you know

Yeah, can't wait until Jack@HJ gets back to answer these concerns themselves/himself.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:19 pm

micsteam wrote:Hey guys, here is the link on youtube: https://youtu.be/Ec6heul3O5E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Yes it was sent to my IPhone and then I posted it up on my Youtube account, I do not have access to a Steve Delk Raiders block but this gentleman does. I am still trying to get the pics up here, I can supply them on request if you PM me, but you can clearly see the sweatband sticks out of the hat. The gentleman making the hat does not know how to sink a sweatband correctly. Also, from what I can see the stitching is made by a sewing machine so do not advertise " handmade". Eazybox, you take such immediate offense with my valid observations ... why ?? Also, Eazybox thank you so much with resolving the defintition of " sockpuppet" I hope it does not apply to you. I live in South Florida so I am dealing with Irma (cat 3 now but fluctuates between cat 4 and cat 5) and my brother in law died Thursday night, I have quite a lot going on but I appreciate the well wishes.. thank you. I am finally in my " bunker" so to say and I can jump in here. Hope this helps

The extent of my communication with jack@hj is about 5 pms here and a couple of exchanged comments here and on other forums. My enthusiasm for the hat I received from him is based on over 30 years of owning and examining various replicas and comparing photos with videos and screen grabs. If you do not agree with me that is your prerogative, but frankly I resent the insinuations and I'm done with the drama here. I've got the hat I've waited a lifetime for, and that's all that really matters to me. I haven't seen your video and experience with viruses has taught me to be cautious about clicking random links, so I'll let others hash out whatever shocking and scandalous "revelations" are on it.

I've been away from this site for a long time and I almost forgot how crazy and toxic it can get. I don't need or want that kind of energy in my life and I'm just going to let this go. Have fun guys, and don't burn yourselves playing with those Tiki torches.

GrailHunter · Post by **GrailHunter** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:38 pm

micsteam wrote:Hey guys, here is the link on youtube: https://youtu.be/Ec6heul3O5E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Yes it was sent to my IPhone and then I posted it up on my Youtube account, I do not have access to a Steve Delk Raiders block but this gentleman does. I am still trying to get the pics up here, I can supply them on request if you PM me, but you can clearly see the sweatband sticks out of the hat. The gentleman making the hat does not know how to sink a sweatband correctly. Also, from what I can see the stitching is made by a sewing machine so do not advertise " handmade". Eazybox, you take such immediate offense with my valid observations ... why ?? Also, Eazybox thank you so much with resolving the defintition of " sockpuppet" I hope it does not apply to you. I live in South Florida so I am dealing with Irma (cat 3 now but fluctuates between cat 4 and cat 5) and my brother in law died Thursday night, I have quite a lot going on but I appreciate the well wishes.. thank you. I am finally in my " bunker" so to say and I can jump in here. Hope this helps

Seriously!!! You must think we are all stupid. You go on about a youtube video that has been up for a while and then publish one that was put up yesterday. It looks contrived and unconvincing and published with an agenda. Your posts are the evidence on top of that. Good luck trying to convince everyone else, but you just 'outed' yourself in the best way possible

Glad you could take the time and effort to make and post that clip when you have Irma coming at you. That certainly adds credibility to your claims.

Post by **Dalexs** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:31 pm

Folks, with all that is going on right now with Irma, lets try to keep our cool around this subject.

After all, it's just a hat...

Dalexs

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:39 pm

You go on about a youtube video that has been up for a while and then publish one that was put up yesterday.

Worse - he goes on about a Youtube video that's been up for a while, which nobody else here is able to find until he posts it on Youtube from an anonymous source.

I'm not gonna get into what you're doing debating hats on a forum when there's been a death in the family and you have a category 3-5 hurricane bearing down on you. That's your prerogative. I think your priorities are weird as heck, but it's your prerogative.

you can clearly see the sweatband sticks out of the hat.

Uh....that looks like a well-constructed hat to me. Flawless construction? No, but when you spend all this time complaining about the construction of the hat and then show us this video, it really makes your complaints ring hollow.

the stitching is made by a sewing machine so do not advertise " handmade".

They probably did use a sewing machine, but, frankly, we could have inferred that from their insanely fast turn around time. Hand-sewing the sweat in is one of the biggest time saps in the hat-making process. Nevertheless, a machine-sewn sweat doesn't mean the hat isn't handmade: outside of the Indygear community, most handmade hats have a machine-sewn sweat. Optimo is quite frank about the fact that they use a machine for that phase of the process. I think Art Fawcett does as well - at least, the pictures of his shop show a sewing machine. As far as they're concerned, it's still a person who's operating the machine, and a person who's doing every other step of the process. "Handmade" is just their way of telling you it's not a factory-produced hat. And, frankly, I don't much care how they get the sweat in there, especially when it allows for fast turn around times.

Addressing the video itself, this just raises all kinds of questions for me:

1. why the heck does this guy just "happen" to have a Steve Delk Raiders block?

2. how the heck would Jack@HJ have gotten hold of a Steve Delk Raiders block, as this guy suggests?

3. This guy has a "buddy" who goes around buying him ~$450 hats? Where can I get friends like that?

4. How do we know that the maker of this video didn't reblock the HJ on a hat block he already had, reconstruct it, then deconstruct it on camera and pull it over the block he already used to block it?
5. How do we know it actually is a "perfect" fit? If the block was only off by a millimeter or two from the original HJ block, I seriously doubt we would be able to tell from a video.

I seriously doubt that's an AB hat block and, if it is, that just says to me that Steve got REALLY close with his block. Like I said, a millimeter here or there wouldn't be noticeable on screen.

Post by **Dalexs** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:49 pm

All good points. Let keep the discussion going, cool and clear...

Please keep in mind that Steve Delks blocks were made by a professional hat block maker, Richard Lamode.
For a time, they were available to the public (except for maybe the CS.) So for someone to have one would not be out of the question.
(I kick myself for not getting one when I had the chance.)

Stay safe everyone.

Dalexs

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:00 pm

All good points. Let keep the discussion going, cool and clear...

That's my aim.

Please keep in mind that Steve Delks blocks were made by a professional hat block maker, Richard Lamode.
For a time, they were available to the public (except for maybe the CS.) So for someone to have one would not be out of the question.

Thanks for the tip!

I'm more willing to believe now that the person making the video has a Delk block. I still find it HIGHLY unlikely that the folks at Herbert Johnson went out, years after those blocks stopped being for sale, went to all the trouble of acquiring one on the second-hand market all so they could perpetrate fraud on the Indygear community. I find it far more likely that Steve was just very close with his block, close enough that it wouldn't show up on camera.

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:31 am

All very interesting. But the HJ block is a flat-domed stovepipe. Given how truly insightful and skilled Steve is, I don't doubt that he had the skill to deduce this. He owned a pre-1980's HJ before so could examine it in person and take the behavior of the felt into consideration.

It will be fun to watch this but I think Steve IS that skilled and DID figure out what it was.

Anyone here own an AB Raiders from Delk or Penman? Was it a stovepipe when new?

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:41 am

darthjones2 wrote: Anyone here own an AB Raiders from Delk or Penman? Was it a stovepipe when new?

Steve didn't just have one block. He was always refining it, and it evolved over time. There were also separate blocks for beaver and rabbit hats to compensate for the differences in the felts, I believe. The example I own (the rabbit Magnoli HJ, which was made on one of the blocks he was using in 2007) was pre-shaped, but in a direct comparison could not be mistaken for the HJ. The most obvious difference is that Steve's crown is substantially shorter. Also, as mentioned before, the side views are decisively different. And Steve's block happens to look better on me (as a hat, apart from any connection to Indy) than the HJ; if the blocks were identical with the same creases, I don't see how that would be possible. I also seem to recall Steve writing that his blocks were not perfect stovepipes, but I could be mistaken about that. If anyone cares to plow through Steve's voluminous posts on the subject, I'm sure they could shed more light on this.

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:40 am

I WISH WISH it was easier to post images here but this is my rabbit HJ next to Delk Raiders. Delk is much better made but has no room to settle in given my own, personal experience. Starts too low.

AB on left

Mod Edit: You mean like this...

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:48 am

darthjones2 wrote:

https://imgur.com/OANkmPq" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I WISH WISH it was easier to post images here but this is my rabbit HJ next to Delk Raiders. Delk is much better made but has no room to settle in given my own, personal experience. Starts too low.

AB on left

Those are good pictures. "No room to settle in" is a good description, since I believe the open crown dimensions must be pretty much the same. The AB looks like my Magnoli and the main difference between your HJ and mine is that the back of my HJ's crown slants slightly inward toward the brim, and it doesn't appear as though yours does. But both looks are screen accurate, depending on which scenes you are looking at.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:15 am

"You know, when I first started making hats, I made them 5 3/4 open crown. Once folks started to post pics of my hats, on their heads, I saw right away, they were all too tall if film accuracy was important. I agonized over this for a bit, and then started blocking them at 5 1/2, and immediately saw this was closer to the right crown height.

The hats in possession of the costumer for Indy 4 were 5 1/2 open crown HJs. So, it seems that when I dropped the heights, I was doing the right thing.

On a Raiders fedora, I think the creased crown height varied from 4 1/2 to 5 at the front crease, (depending upon the scene) and the back was creased at 4 1/2 to 3 3/4 depending upon the scene. The taller heights were on the exterior temple hat that were not creased as deeply, as what followed.

But most of what we see on the film is a 4 3/4 front, 4 inch back, which was used on the CS hat, well, almost, as it is 4 3/4 by 4 1/2."-- Steve Delk. 11/18/2007

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:46 pm

eazybox wrote:
darthjones2 wrote:

https://imgur.com/OANkmPq" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I WISH WISH it was easier to post images here but this is my rabbit HJ next to Delk Raiders. Delk is much better made but has no room to settle in given my own, personal experience. Starts too low.

AB on left
Those are good pictures. "No room to settle in" is a good description, since I believe the open crown dimensions must be pretty much the same. The AB looks like my Magnoli and the main difference between your HJ and mine is that the back of my HJ's crown slants slightly inward toward the brim, and it doesn't appear as though yours does. But both looks are screen accurate, depending on which scenes you are looking at.

My HJ DID slant inward - this is after being shaped with water and a little bit of heat. It does otherwise have that "reverse taper" (as coined elsewhere on COW). And the crown height was about 6" even. My head size is 23 3/4 for perspective. But this hat here on the right is AFTER shrinkage - it is now at the point where non-HJ's start and therefore begin to taper in my opinion.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:44 pm

I'm liking this new "settling in" theory. It explains why previous hatters have had so much trouble perfecting the Raiders block: reverse-engineering the block from screenshots is doubly-hard when what we're seeing on screen is what the finished hat settles into, not what it initially looked like. I still think that for hat size 7 1/2, the height (6 inches) is too tall, but I MAY be taking a trip to England in the Spring. If so, I'll see about popping into HJ to have the hat reblocked on the lower block.

DarthJones2, that's a great profile shot of your HJ. Do you have any others from different angles that you can share?

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:20 pm

My 2 cents: It's my opinion that the block HJ uses for their Raiders hats is NOT the original Poet block. Either that or the block has gotten taller be about 1 1/2". I've had several of the "reboots" in my possession, I've owned three and worked on several for others and I've not been able to bash one of them into anything that resembles what I saw in the film. Sitting on the hat, intentionally shrinking, you name it, I've tried it but .every measure I've taken has failed to produce a hat which can replicate the hero fedora. My first hat I ordered in January had a crown which was 6" + open. Now they offer a shorter version which is still about 1/4" too tall imo.
As for the "floating sweatband", which I've seen personally multiple times on the reboots, Jack's excuse was that there was a "trainee" working for hj at the time and that he "got rid of him" eventually. Yet the problem exists. However I wasn't as concerned with the sweat issue as I was about the fact that there are trainees putting together our $450-$650 hats!

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:44 pm

anindyjones wrote:My 2 cents: It's my opinion that the block HJ uses for their Raiders hats is NOT the original Poet block. Either that or the block has gotten taller be about 1 1/2". I've had several of the "reboots" in my possession, I've owned three and worked on several for others and I've not been able to bash one of them into anything that resembles what I saw in the film. Sitting on the hat, intentionally shrinking, you name it, I've tried it but .every measure I've taken has failed to produce a hat which can replicate the hero fedora. My first hat I ordered in January had a crown which was 6" + open. Now they offer a shorter version which is still about 1/4" too tall imo.
As for the "floating sweatband", which I've seen personally multiple times on the reboots, Jack's excuse was that there was a "trainee" working for hj at the time and that he "got rid of him" eventually. Yet the problem exists. However I wasn't as concerned with the sweat issue as I was about the fact that there are trainees putting together our $450-$650 hats!

I sprayed my hat down a few times - not saying you should do it - but I got an accurate hat after that. Also did a lot of smashing. I do need to post some photos here but in my experience the new HJ is the proper height and all the others are too short lol!

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:45 pm

Mulceber wrote:I'm liking this new "settling in" theory. It explains why previous hatters have had so much trouble perfecting the Raiders block: reverse-engineering the block from screenshots is doubly-hard when what we're seeing on screen is what the finished hat settles into, not what it initially looked like. I still think that for hat size 7 1/2, the height (6 inches) is too tall, but I MAY be taking a trip to England in the Spring. If so, I'll see about popping into HJ to have the hat reblocked on the lower block.

DarthJones2, that's a great profile shot of your HJ. Do you have any others from different angles that you can share?

I will try to mount some more photos. I think the height is perfect! The rest are too short in my experience. You shrink it at all with any water? I'm not saying to do so but I will show you what happened with mine later with new photos.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:38 pm

Here's my HJ. It's not too tall:

And a shot from the film for comparison:

I hope these load right this time.

Mod Edit: Use the img tag, not the url tag...

alex1152 · Post by **alex1152** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:57 pm

darthjones2 wrote:

I WISH WISH it was easier to post images here but this is my rabbit HJ next to Delk Raiders. Delk is much better made but has no room to settle in given my own, personal experience. Starts too low.

AB on left

Mod Edit: You mean like this...

The hat you post on the left picture was not made by Steve Delk, that's the Adventurebilt Legacy made by John Penman.

darthjones2 · Post by **darthjones2** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:45 am

alex1152 wrote:
darthjones2 wrote:

I WISH WISH it was easier to post images here but this is my rabbit HJ next to Delk Raiders. Delk is much better made but has no room to settle in given my own, personal experience. Starts too low.

AB on left

Mod Edit: You mean like this...

The hat you post on the left picture was not made by Steve Delk, that's the Adventurebilt Legacy made by John Penman.

Oh I know - but it is the Steve Delk Legacy block used by Penman. Penman, Delk, and Kitter - best hat makers ever in my experience. Truly. I have a great Penman dress hat here that gets a LOT of use!!!

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:42 pm

Sorry if this is thread hijacking but beings that we're on the subject...I'm contemplating ordering an HJ in Rabbit and having them do a Raiders bash. Do they do a good job at bashing or should I seek someone to help me bash the hat accurately? (I myself **** at bashing)

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Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:38 pm

Sorry if this is thread hijacking

By all means, hijack this thread.

Do they do a good job at bashing or should I seek someone to help me bash the hat accurately? (I myself **** at bashing)

When I ordered (back in May), they were not very good at bashing. That said, they may have gotten better. My advice would be to order it open crown and try your hand at bashing. It's very soft felt with little memory, so you'll have plenty of opportunities to start over, should you need to. There are also probably a fair few people who'd be willing to help, although bashing it yourself might be easier than going through the hassle of shipping it to someone.

edit: if this is a representative sample of their current bashing skills, they've definitely improved. Not perfect, but pretty good, and certainly a nice looking hat.

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:20 pm

Mulceber wrote:
Sorry if this is thread hijacking
By all means, hijack this thread.

Do they do a good job at bashing or should I seek someone to help me bash the hat accurately? (I myself **** at bashing)
When I ordered (back in May), they were not very good at bashing. That said, they may have gotten better. My advice would be to order it open crown and try your hand at bashing. It's very soft felt with little memory, so you'll have plenty of opportunities to start over, should you need to. There are also probably a fair few people who'd be willing to help, although bashing it yourself might be easier than going through the hassle of shipping it to someone.

edit: if this is a representative sample of their current bashing skills, they've definitely improved. Not perfect, but pretty good, and certainly a nice looking hat.

Thanks for the info! I messaged HJ and point blank asked them. I've only ever had beaver so maybe I'd be better with Rabbit. Any video tutorials online?

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Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:31 pm

Plenty. I recommend Penman's tutorial on getting a Raiders bash. Go to facebook, search "Penman Hat Co.", check out his videos, and the last one (hit "show more" a couple times) is a Raiders hat tutorial.

IndyFan89 · Post by **IndyFan89** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:39 pm

Mulceber wrote:Plenty. I recommend Penman's tutorial on getting a Raiders bash. Go to facebook, search "Penman Hat Co.", check out his videos, and the last one (hit "show more" a couple times) is a Raiders hat tutorial.

You're the best! This is why I love COW.

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Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:41 pm

I'll also say, if you've been spoiled on beaver fur, that HJ's rabbit is some of the best I've ever seen. It's still noticeably rabbit felt (it doesn't have the density of beaver), but the quality and the pounce is comparable to a decent beaver fur.