New Herbert Johnson!

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Tue May 30, 2017 1:50 pm

Well, after a week that felt like an eternity (and that's nothing compared to what Penman and Adventurebilt customers go through!), the Fedex man came to the door at 9:30 AM this morning with a package...

After carefully slicing the tape, I took the plastic off the hat. First off, let me just say that the felt is amazing. You can tell it's rabbit, because it doesn't have the density of a beaver felt hat, but the pounce job is better than almost any rabbit hat I've ever seen, better even than some beaver hats. The felt is highly pliable. It's a fun hat to work with. On a technical level, these are excellent hats, and Jack@HJ has done a great job.

That said, it looks a little tall...

yep, looks a bit tall.

I popped out the crown and held up a measuring tape to it - 6 inches. The Raiders hat was 5 1/2 inches, open crown, so this isn't a case of it just appearing tall to people who aren't used to the Raiders hat, this hat is blocked a half inch too high.

Undeterred, however, I set about trying to give it a new bash that would get it closer to screen accurate. With Fedoraraiders' measurements for the Raiders hat in hand (when bashed, it should be 4 3/4 inches at the pinch, 3 3/4 inches at the rear, and ~5 inches at the humps of the crown). The Raiders hat is also unusual, in that the center dent isn't a straight line, but more like a banana shape. This is integral to the look of the hat, as the unusual shape and depth of the center dent pulls down the crown substantially and gives it some reverse taper on one side and a touch of regular taper on the other side.

My first attempt at the banana-shaped center dent. I won't deny it's more extreme than Ford's, and ends up being closer to a c-crown, but I'm dealing with a half inch more felt than Deborah Nadoolman was.

I will comment that this hat takes on that shape of center dent really easily (a product of the block, I guess), and is pretty resistant to taper: most hats I have, if given a deep center dent, will look like a Dorfman-Pacific that just took a swim in the Atlantic ocean. Not this one. Pushing the crown deeper in tapers it a little, but much less than one would expect.

And...this is what I've been able to get from it so far...it's still a work in progress, and it's incredible to be working on a hat made on the original Raiders block. Jack, my compliments on a finely-made product,

So, now I ask the great minds at Indygear, what would you do to get this closer to what we see in Cairo? I'm especially interested in hearing what you have to say, Fedoraraiders!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue May 30, 2017 2:17 pm

None of your images are working at the moment.

Regard! Michaelson

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Tue May 30, 2017 2:24 pm

Dang it!

Can you recommend a good image hosting service? Photobucket always seems to do them too small. In the meantime, here's a link to the google images album:

https://goo.gl/photos/4Vc2s2Q2ZrPpzazLA

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue May 30, 2017 2:26 pm

Thanks!

Oh, and did you catch this discussion about open crown heights?

Opinions are all over the place right now.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67452" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regard! Michaelson

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Tue May 30, 2017 2:29 pm

Yep, I've been working (more or less) from Fedoraraiders' specs.

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Tue May 30, 2017 2:31 pm

Imgur is all you need for photos. Easy to use.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Tue May 30, 2017 2:41 pm

Thanks for the recommendation, Jeremiah! Is that better?

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue May 30, 2017 2:59 pm

That worked!

Regard! M

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Tue May 30, 2017 3:53 pm

Hello Mulceber,

Your hat look good.

It’s little bit too tall but because it’s a 60cm, it’s correct.

It’s just my opinion but remove the banana on the top of your hat. The hat that worn Harrison Is not so pronounced. Forget this detail. Personally, I do not give much importance at this picture of the hat seen from behind with a big sun.

Compared to the ribbon, I see the Raiders turn but I don't see the Raiders turn compared at the brim and it's very very important to have the Raiders brim.

The Raiders turn must not be a fake. Originally, it was pinched in the wrong place. It’s a error from Deborah but it’s a good error because it’s this error who make a Raiders Hat.

It's not a bad comment because I love Herbert Johnson but I don’t know if they use the good method to make a real Raiders turn because I don’t see the asymetrical form with a brim and a crown.

For a true Raiders turn:

- It is necessary to block the felt centered on the block as if it were a normal hat.

- Sew a sweatband at the right place as if it were a normal hat.

- Sew the ribbon at the right place as if it were a normal hat.

- Cut the brim at the right place as if it were a normal hat.

- Glue de inner satin at the right place as if it were a normal hat.

- And after:

- Simulate or should be the central pinch and make a front pinch at 1 1/4 on the right when you look the hat on the front. You will have a hat with real asymmetrical look like Raiders.

I will send my opinion to Jack and I hope he don’t see my commentary with the bad eye. I would like just to help.

Please, remove your banana and don’t put the water on your hat.

Do you have the hat stifener?

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Tue May 30, 2017 4:25 pm

Ok, so starting over from scratch:

I popped the crown out and applied the turn myself (centering the hat on my head so that the little white bow on the sweatband is at the back of my head, then rotating it 1 inch):

Then I put in the center dent. I tried getting ride of the banana-shaped one (REALLY wish I'd come up with a better name for that

), but I think that really is just something that comes naturally with the Raiders block. When I applied the regular center dent, that outcropping just reappeared.

I then tried deepening the back of the crown to 3 3/4", then applied the pinch to the front:

Being dissatisfied with the taper I was seeing, I made it higher in the back and got this result:

Has a bit more of the boxiness we associate with the Raiders hat, no?

Here it is in a bit more light:

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Tue May 30, 2017 5:35 pm

The shape look good!

I turn one of your picture to see in the good side because you take the picture in the miror.

It's just my perception. You can make this modification only with your hands. Don't use the water.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Tue May 30, 2017 10:16 pm

Thanks for the suggestions, Fedoraiders. Unfortunately, such fine adjustments aren't so simple, since the felt is so pliable is that it doesn't hold its shape.

Any suggestions for making the changes stick?

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Wed May 31, 2017 7:18 am

Mulceber wrote:Thanks for the suggestions, Fedoraiders. Unfortunately, such fine adjustments aren't so simple, since the felt is so pliable is that it doesn't hold its shape. Any suggestions for making the changes stick?

Do you have a hat stiffener because it's very good to change the shape of the hat.

And after, the hat will become very flexible if you wore often.

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Wed May 31, 2017 9:13 am

Funny the "banana" shaped center dent should come up. Everytime I try to bash a hat Raiders style I notice I can never get the dent straight from front to back. It always seems to want to drift back at the rear to where a normal, centered dent would usually rest if the hat were bashed without the turn.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Wed May 31, 2017 9:18 am

fedoraiders wrote:Do you have a hat stiffener because it's very good to change the shape of the hat.

And after, the hat will become very flexible if you wore often.

Unfortunately not. Can you recommend how to get some?

anindyjones wrote:Funny the "banana" shaped center dent should come up. Everytime I try to bash a hat Raiders style I notice I can never get the dent straight from front to back. It always seems to want to drift back at the rear to where a normal, centered dent would usually rest if the hat were bashed without the turn.

So, if I'm understanding you right, you tend to get that shape of center dent as well?

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Wed May 31, 2017 10:20 am

You can buy on ebay and it's a good choice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bickmore-Origin ... SwB4NWxjg2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Wed May 31, 2017 10:49 am

Just bought! Thanks

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Wed May 31, 2017 11:58 am

Yep Mulceber, you understood correctly. When I put my center dent in a Raiders hat, the felt just seems to work itself back at the end of the dent at the rear without my doing anything extra. I didnt realize until you posted that screen grab that it was actually like that in the movie. When I bash the hat I'm working on now, I'll know not to use the ruler I'd been using previously to create a perfectly straight center dent.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Wed May 31, 2017 1:27 pm

Make's sense - and it's probably a sign that you've got a block that's pretty close to the original Raiders block (if I'm right that that effect is a byproduct of the peculiar shape of the Raiders block, that is).

Overall, I'm really pleased with this hat. I just wore it out and about today, and the felt is extremely soft and pliable, the color is almost exactly what I remember from the movies (maybe a touch more of a green or yellow undertone than I recall, but these are minor discrepancies). It's settling into its role well. I think when I get it reblocked, I'll ask Jack to use the "new" (i.e. quarter inch shorter) block, as I think that would look a little better and more Indy-esque on me, but this hat comes highly recommended.

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Wed May 31, 2017 2:48 pm

I've bought two of the new "reboots" actually, one straight from HJ and another secondhand hat. I really like everything about them except for the 6" crown which gets under my skin. I bought the other one just to make sure I didn't recieve an oddball hat with an extra tall crown and sure enough it's 6" also. Jack has explained everything to me about variances in crown height based on hat size so it makes sense to me. However, I have contacted him about reblocking my hat using the shorter block so I hope I hear something soon.
Your hat and bash look good btw.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Wed May 31, 2017 3:01 pm

Thanks - do you have any sense how much it'll cost to have yours reblocked on the smaller block (including shipping)? I might do that sooner rather than later, as the 6" crown bugs me too.

I'm glad people are buying them - I'd really like to see this venture succeed, both because Jack has been so accommodating in working with the COW community and because I want to see more of the traditional companies go back to making high quality hats.

I'll probably buy a young Indy hat from him sometime in the next few months.

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:59 pm

Mulceber,
I see you're interested in using some stiffener on your hat. Just be sure to use it only INSIDE the crown and UNDER the brim. Also make sure you shake the bottle really well before applying the stiffener to prevent flaking.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:55 pm

Thanks for letting me know - I'd hate to make a mistake doing that...

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:19 pm

Also, if you haven't removed it already, you'll find fine custom hat makers sew the liner in, and do not GLUE the liner in, so once you've pulled out the liner to put in the stiffer, you're going to have to make the hard decision of using glue as recommended by fedoraraiders higher up in this thread or figuring out how to resew the liner back.

Just another thing to think about as you 'deconstruct' your new HJ.

Regards! Michaelson

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:36 pm

In the past my go-to has been to simply put the liner in and let the sweatband hold it in place. Works like a charm for my Adventurebilts.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:13 pm

It should work on this one as well.

I used to do that with my 'summer' hats that I have vent holes in, but it got to be such a pain putting them in and taking them out between seasons, I just gave up and left them out.

Regards! M

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:57 pm

Michaelson wrote:It should work on this one as well.

I used to do that with my 'summer' hats that I have vent holes in, but it got to be such a pain putting them in and taking them out between seasons, I just gave up and left them out.

Regards! M

Yeah, I was a little worried, as I noticed the fabric of the HJ liners isn't as stiff as the bridle satin Steve uses. That said, I just tried tucking the liner in and it seems to be working just as well.

And...here's a new pic after a little felt stiffener in the crown around the crease (you guys REALLY picked the right day to give felt stiffener advice

):

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:04 pm

Looks perfect. Don't change a thing.

fedoraiders · Post by **fedoraiders** » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:07 pm

I agree, it is very beautiful!

It may not be recommended but I prefer to put the stiffener directly on the hat with long distance or with a net. I made this operation at several time without problems.

Anyway, You make a very good job!

Congradulation my friends!

Canyon · Post by **Canyon** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:25 am

Mulceber, that is one gorgeous looking hat!

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:42 pm

Thanks guys!

I really think Herbert Johnson is on the right track. This is a great hat, and I suspect Jack's work is only going to get better with time.

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:44 pm

Looks like you've whipped your HJ into pretty good shape.

What's it look like on your head from the side?

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:38 pm

anindyjones wrote:Looks like you've whipped your HJ into pretty good shape. What's it look like on your head from the side?

Ask and you shall receive!

Here's a three quarters shot:

And a couple side shots from different angles:

I gotta say, this is one of the comfiest hats I've ever worn, very much like Garrison's rabbit felt hats. With so little stiffener (apart from what I added to the inside of the crease), it just molds effortlessly to the shape of my head.

smirkingrevenge · Post by **smirkingrevenge** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:31 am

Hey guys, newbie here. Where did this hat come from, if you don't mind me asking? I have an adventurebuilt and its just ti high and wide for me. Are these hats easier to get made is slightly smaller sizes while still maintaining the look and feel.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:00 am

Happy to help.

The hat is made by Herbert Johnson, the company that made the hats for the first three Indy movies. There's a long thread detailing what's been happening with them (http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=66775), but the gist of it is that after decades of the company being bought and sold, and producing hats of rapidly decreasing quality, HJ was bought by a company that decided to put an actual hatter in charge of hat making. He wasted no time in switching to high quality felts, re-acquiring the original hat block that they had used to make the hat for Raiders of the Lost Ark, and doing all he could to recreate the original hats.

They have a facebook page (just search "herbert johnson hatters piccadilly" on facebook and it will take you right to it). As for getting what you want, I'm not sure: they're happy to make a hat in any shape or size, but the Indy hat is a tall hat, and if you just order an Indy hat from them, you'll likely find yourself in the same position you're in with your Adventurebilt. I think in order to get what you're looking for, you'd have to explain to them in great detail exactly what you want. If you want my advice, before you go out and spend a bunch of money on a new hat, it would be wise to figure out for yourself exactly what you're looking for (you say lower and narrower, but that's pretty general). I think you should start a thread here in the Fedora section, post some pics of yourself in your Adventurebilt from different angles, and get some feedback from the members here: they're very knowledgable, and happy to offer suggestions.

Edit: I noticed your other thread - it's hard to say how well the shape of the hat suits you, because the one picture of it on your head is at an angle. From what I could see though, it looks like that hat suits your features. More pics would be helpful though.

From what you've said, it also sounds like your current hat doesn't fit properly. For your next hat, you should use a tailor's measuring tape, and measure your head, positioning the tape exactly where you want the hat to sit on your head. If you can get someone to help you, it's easier. The measuring tape should be tight against your head, but not so tight that it's uncomfortable. You basically want it not to be slack at any point, as that will result in an inaccurate measurement. Measure three times and take the average of them for best results. You also might want to give some consideration to the length of your hair: if you measure right after getting a haircut, the hat will fit you right after you get a haircut, but will be too tight the rest of the time. I recommend measuring about half-way between haircuts.

Hope this helps!

temple_runner · Post by **temple_runner** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:40 pm

That is a great looking hat!

I ordered the Akubra Fed IV for price's sake, but I would order the HJ in a heartbeat. It holds a bash like crazy. Nice work.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:06 pm

Thanks, temple_runner!

Lol, it didn't get to the point of holding a bash on its own - a couple light coats of felt stiffener on the crease have helped it along. The results have been quite pleasing though.

Spudomatic · Post by **Spudomatic** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:20 am

This is an interesting thread! I also just received my new HJ Poet done on the 5.25" block by Jack as well. I had requested that he try to keep the front pinch to 4.5" max, so I was a bit disheartened to find it arrived at well over 5" at the pinch! It was sooo tall! It took a bit of nerve to start playing with my brand new hat, but with a good bit of work on my part, I'm now very happy with it. I think I went through a lot of the same process... glad to see I wasn't just me that found the same things to work out!

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:12 am

Thanks, yeah, it's all part of a process of tinkering with the look until you get what you want out of it. It's actually quite fun, especially when you know you have the right hat block, because then it's a process of "how do I get from point what the Raiders hat looked like when it came off the block, to what it looked like on Ford's head." It's a very rewarding experience, and I highly recommend getting one of these things open crown so you can play around with them. The felt is so soft and forgiving that you almost can't go wrong.

thePawn · Post by **thePawn** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:26 pm

I received my Raiders Poet in Rabbit. I have been working all the stiffener out of it since I received it and its very similar to their earlier Poets. I ordered the lighter brown color which I find is more screen accurate for that aged worn look in the film. The Poets I have from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's are definitely darker. So far its my 2nd favorite hat I have right now, second only to a vintage Mercury felt made by Peters Brothers many moons ago.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:21 am

thePawn wrote:I received my Raiders Poet in Rabbit. I have been working all the stiffener out of it since I received it and its very similar to their earlier Poets. I ordered the lighter brown color which I find is more screen accurate for that aged worn look in the film. The Poets I have from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's are definitely darker. So far its my 2nd favorite hat I have right now, second only to a vintage Mercury felt made by Peters Brothers many moons ago.

Interesting that you had to work out the stiffener - I found mine to be pretty pliable out of the box. Maybe a bit of stiffener in the brim, but very little. This is probably my favorite hat right now. Beaver is wonderful to the touch (not to mention in a torrential downpour), but there's something great about the natural floppiness of rabbit, and the Portuguese rabbit felt that Jack uses is nearly as soft as a beaver hat, especially with the pounce job they give it.

car96 · Post by **car96** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:40 pm

Your hat looks good.

My question is do the hats from Herbert Johnson come already shaped and bashed to buyer wants?

If I have to try and shape a hat , I will ruin it. Doesn't make sense to spend that kind of money then let a novice try and shape it to make it look great. I couldn't do it.

Congratulations to you.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:42 pm

car96 wrote:Your hat looks good.

My question is do the hats from Herbert Johnson come already shaped and bashed to buyer wants?

If I have to try and shape a hat , I will ruin it. Doesn't make sense to spend that kind of money then let a novice try and shape it to make it look great. I couldn't do it.

Congratulations to you.

Yes, they will bash the hat to the scene you want. However, in my experience, the felt is floppy enough that it tends to revert to something approaching an open crown during shipping.

You say that you'll ruin it, but I'm convinced that's not the case. Bashing a hat really isn't all that difficult, especially with a hat of this quality. If this thread has demonstrated anything, it's that all you have to do is mess around with it until you've got a look that you like. If you get something you don't like, pop out the bash and start over. The felt has very little memory, it won't show your previous attempts. Buy some felt stiffener from the ebay link fedoraiders provided (it's dirt cheap), and when you get a crease you like, give the hat a couple squirts of stiffener, and you're done!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bickmore-Origin ... SwB4NWxjg2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's honestly more satisfying than having a pre-bashed hat out of the box.

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:59 am

Speaking from over 50 years experience (boy, it hurts saying that

) owning dozens of high quality felt hats I think I can safely say a few things.

1. Unless you burn it, spill bleach, oil or acid on it, get it caught in a piece of machinery or rip it in half, shaping a quality hat can't ruin it.

2. Even if you have someone meticulously shape your hat to what they think they see on a movie screen and then hand it to you, as soon as you put it on YOUR head, the shape of your head, how you wear and handle the hat, and the things you put it through a daily basis will re-shape it anyway.

3. Quality hats are way more forgiving and way harder to hurt then inexpensive hats.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:09 am

Couldn't have put it better myself, Ridgerunner.

thePawn · Post by **thePawn** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:45 am

I bought the Raiders Rabbit which I distressed for Cosplay and the beaver and Gray Raiders for dress wear. These are great hats. I like mine extremely floppy so I worked with them and got all the stiffener out of the felt and each one looks great. Highly recommended.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:05 am

Ridgerunner58 wrote:Speaking from over 50 years experience (boy, it hurts saying that ) owning dozens of high quality felt hats I think I can safely say a few things.

1. Unless you burn it, spill bleach, oil or acid on it, get it caught in a piece of machinery or rip it in half, shaping a quality hat can't ruin it.

2. Even if you have someone meticulously shape your hat to what they think they see on a movie screen and then hand it to you, as soon as you put it on YOUR head, the shape of your head, how you wear and handle the hat, and the things you put it through a daily basis will re-shape it anyway.

3. Quality hats are way more forgiving and way harder to hurt then inexpensive hats.

+1 (Including the 'over 50 years of experience' remark.

)

Regards! Michaelson

Dangerfreak · Post by **Dangerfreak** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:23 am

This has been a very informative thread. I've since had the confidence to re-bash my Fed IV to something a bit more accurate. The felt on the Fed IV is pretty stiff, but I found using the steam from the kettle really useful.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:22 pm

Thanks, Dangerfreak! Yeah, come to think, it does seem like most threads that feature hat bashing just show the end result, rather than the process of fiddling with the bash until you get it right. Glad it was helpful! Speaking of which, I did a little bit more tinkering myself - here are some outdoor pics, without the aid of a mirror.

I ended up going for an opening scene look, as I think the taller crown of HJ's original block is better suited to that. The Cairo hat looks a bit more squat to my eye. Not sure why - maybe the heat caused the hat to shrink a bit?

Apologies about the scowl on my face - too busy trying to strike the right pose.

Dangerfreak · Post by **Dangerfreak** » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:12 am

Nice work Mulceber, your hat looks great. Having the screen shots for comparison is a good touch. I agree with your comments above, it's always great to see people's end results, but being able to read a work in progress has been very useful.